Tunning for Spark advance

[N-gin]

OK this is my first V-tune dealing with spark advance. Did I do this right? Acording to the graph I have no spark retard going on.
The first file attached is the Vtune file. The second is My running file.
In the instructions it says to Put the Knock retard to zero so it doesnt interfer with the V-tune but that doesnt make sense. If you were to set the Knock retard to zero how would it show on the graph

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[glens]

What instructions say to put the knock retard to zero?  Why would you want to do that?  Do you want to collect vtune data which doesn't disregard abnormal combustion?

[N-gin]

 

What instructions say to put the knock retard to zero?  Why would you want to do that? 

TTS guide, and thats what I was aking why would I do that Are you trying to tell me to add the spark retard and retune

[glens]

Okay, that's not for v-tuning but for doing what you're doing (which will necessitate at least another v-tune session if you make much spark change).  The Adaptive Knock Retard table is the amount of retard that can be learned, not the amount that can be pulled.  At least that's what I'm able to ferret out of all the documentation.  So while v-tuning (setting the VE tables) I guess it'd be okay to zero out that table, but I wouldn't disable the knock control in the constants.

[N-gin]

Attached is the new Tune for the spark. Im going to download this tune before I go out and gather info on spark retard.
Should my PE be set at 10000 so It doesnt interfear with my readings?

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[Jeffd]

I think if you are just checking to see if you get timing pulled you need to have it set just like you  would normally run it ie every thing set back to original.

[mayor]

I agree with Jeff.  When I'm checking for spark knocks, I leave the adaptive knock retard table set in active mode (non-zeroed).  I shared my thoughts on this on reply #97 of this thread: http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,41897.50.html

Should my PE be set at 10000 so It doesnt interfear with my readings?

that's up to you.  I see you already have your PE afr matching the wide open for the first 6 sec., so it shouldn't affect your afr during most timing data recordings. 

I'm curious on what was happening in the zero % throttle range on your cal:

I just can't think that having the ve's that high at 0% is necassary.   

[wolf_59]

Mayor, I've seen that before on my bike, I took the 20 MAP column out of closed loop and I quit having that happen

[N-gin]

That happened when I set my Decell enleanment to 00.00 . Now if I set my decell to normal setting while v-tuning then the ve table will calm that area.

The first attachment is the first spark run. It showed knock Up high. Now My immediate response was to take out timing and it worked(see second attachment),BUT what didnt make sence was why I was getting spark knock in the upper RPMs like 4500-5500. So That leads me to think that my AF needs to be adjusted. To verify this I did a high RPM run and pulled the plugs. Looked like it was lean so I will be adding fuel.

Any thoughts???

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[glens]

That happened when I set my Decell enleanment to 00.00 . Now if I set my decell to normal setting while v-tuning then the ve table will calm that area.

And don't you think that (effectively) disabling DE during v-tuning will cause similar effect in "normal" operational areas as well?  At least some of your (now) "good" hits like that will certainly be factored in.  That's precisely why I advocate leaving AE and DE enabled and operational while v-tuning.

As to the rest of that post, I think you're following the correct path.  Though you shouldn't ever find much "color" on the plugs these days.

[Doc 1]

That happened when I set my Decell enleanment to 00.00 . Now if I set my decell to normal setting while v-tuning then the ve table will calm that area.

And don't you think that (effectively) disabling DE during v-tuning will cause similar effect in "normal" operational areas as well?  At least some of your (now) "good" hits like that will certainly be factored in.  That's precisely why I advocate leaving AE and DE enabled and operational while v-tuning.

As to the rest of that post, I think you're following the correct path.  Though you shouldn't ever find much "color" on the plugs these days.

Not so sure you would be negitive about turning off the accel and decel if you know what the benifits are......there IS NO down side to it.
Doc

[glens]

Did you happen to see post #6 and the two posts following it?  That's no downside?

[mayor]

Did you happen to see post #6 and the two posts following it?  That's no downside?

can you explain why turning off decel enleanment would cause the ve's to be greater than needed at 0% tps?  I would think that if there was a negative affect to having this function turned off, the results would show that less pulsewidth would be needed (lower ve's) and not more since the residual fuel would show up in the o2 readings. 

[glens]

If nothing else, the ECM goes out of closed-loop while DE is active, right?  So no "fake" corrective measures would ever get taken and/or no v-tune VE cells get non-pertinent data factored into the results?

[Doc 1]

If nothing else, the ECM goes out of closed-loop while DE is active, right?  So no "fake" corrective measures would ever get taken and/or no v-tune VE cells get non-pertinent data factored into the results?

Glens if you really knew as much as you think you know about this TTS you would know that the Accel and the Decel tables are ADDER TABLES and they work off the VE Table values....they only work as the throttle is being throttled up or throttle down so tell me how this effects the V-Tune when it only records data when the Accel and Decel is not adding or subtracting fuel..........I'll make it easy on you IT DOESN'T.  You highly advocate leaving them activated and I highly avocate to turn them OFF when tuning on the road.
After the VE tables are set you activate the Accel and Decel and they will work fine. Oh and by the way your advice on not turning off the knock control is bunk also......the last thing you want is the timing to retard as your tuning. The only reason we say leave it on while these guys V-Tune is because they don't have a trained ear for hearing detonation and damage can result from this. When the Knock Control removes timing from the ECM it usually removes MUCH more than what is trully needed and removing 6 to 8 degrees (just as an example)  will allow a lot more unburnt fuel to enter the exhaust which will give false data to the 02 sensor and that inturn will screw with the VE tables as you are V-Tuning.
Before you correct someone again that does this every day, you better get all your ducks in a row my friend.
Doc

[glens]

That seems rather an emotional response, certainly much more (and completely different in other respects) than I could have anticipated.

First of all, I'd sure like to know what you understood me to have said as being even an attempt to correct you about anything.  Absolutely "nothing" is what I recall, and a review of the thread confirms that to me.  I did ask you a simple question, however, which you have neglected to address.  It wasn't a mean-spirited question by any means.  Perhaps after you've cooled down you'll care to look at it again?

The review of the transient fuel mechanisms wasn't really necessary, but it sure can't hurt to have that information covered in a thread such as this.  Thank you. 

You somehow got my advocating something characterized as highly advocating it and I neither intended it that way nor believe I said it in such a way as to even express that notion.

Now, I'd like to (attempt to) state some of my thoughts on the whole matter.  If you care to discuss them, please try to keep a cool head, okay?

When transient running conditions are encountered, the "normal" calculations being performed by the ECM in and of themselves are not really so pertinent to the task of populating a VE table.  Agreed?  I mean, if it were necessary to either add or remove fuel for a moment to prevent stumbling or belching, you'd not want those conditions to be present in the data used to figure VE values, would you?  I know I wouldn't.  When riding on a public roadway it's fairly hard to avoid those situations in my experience.

There are at least two ways to handle it.  One would be to leave the ECM's transient-modifying activities up and running in the hopes it would keep the engine running smoother during them.  Granted, the settings in use at the time may not be ideal.  But at least with them up and running, the data collection will be suspended so that in any event there won't be any taint acquired.  This is the notion I entertain.  Another way would be to disable the transient modifying behaviour and include the data obtained during those moments.  Now it might not amount to much in the big picture, but it might just add the one hit which gives a green light to a cell that might otherwise have never gotten that many hits.  Again, it might not amount to much.  But on the other hand, what if that cell rarely gets hit except for an accumulation of a number of such moments?  I'm contemplating doing the v-tune run "blind", with no monitor, so I'd have no way of knowing this was occurring.

That's pretty much where I'm coming from, in a nutshell, regarding the AE and DE while v-tuning on the road.

As to the knock retard, I feel the same (or at least similar) arguments are also applicable.  If there's a moment of a couple of degrees being pulled from the spark timing, and I never heard it happening in the first place, I guess I'd rather just throw away several seconds of data collection as it decays as opposed to disabling the protection and including the data while it was inaudibly knocking.

None of this is meant in any way as a form of trying to correct you, and I hope you take it in the spirit in which it was intended.  If you want to discuss any of it, I'm here.  If not, fine.  But I certainly don't want or expect to get a tongue-lashing over it.  Okay?

Thanks for your time.

[N-gin]

If you were to tune with the enleanment and enrichment on wouldn't that cancel the effects it would have on non tuning conditions? Regular riding.
So in other words you would have to further increase the scale to prevent popping on Deaccel and stumbling on added throttle.
I really think this os a preferences thing. Who is to say that the soft ware ignores this during tunning. All I know is I have absolutely no popping and throttle response is great.
Im just trying to get my spark tables in order.
Now with that in mind I started from scratch with the table front and rear cylinder match. I also added some fuel in the top end. I will post the tune sometime today.

[N-gin]

Here is the tune I have programed right now.
Couple of notes. I think I should not go over 45 degrees of timing so I may lower the higher numbers. Yes I did add timing to the area I was getting knock, but I also added fuel to see the effects. Maybe learn something about that. So far the front tire has been getting very light to the point it lifts the front tire after I shift second, but doesnt stay up , just kind of bunny hopps . I want the tire to come up but something tells me Im not going to do that with stock heads.

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[HogMike]

I've had a couple of bikes professionally tuned on dyno and V-Tune   (you guys know who you are!) and always wondered about why my spark tables were set where they were. I have noticed on BOTH bikes drive-ability was not what I liked. There were some pinging issues going on under some conditions and some throttle sensitivity issues also. Fortunately, I had my TTS with me on the long trips and can tune that out on the road easily.
The last bike I had V-tuned on the dyno was done by someone who really knows how to do this, and has done dozens of bikes. There was still some tables (such as the throttle blade control) that HE likes, but, I do not. Easily changed, and, for me the outcome is one awesome running bike!
Not to jack the post, but, in MY eyes, having the flexibility of the TTS will allow me to tune to MY riding style, not the dyno's (or operators) riding style. You can get close, but, REAL WORLD riding will show you where YOU need to have YOUR tune on YOUR bike, not anyone else's in any other place in the world.
Is my present tune at 100%? I;m sure Doc (and others) will say no, but, I sure like the way it runs! I had some club members with local tuned bikes swap with me, and, yeah, we screwed with the "professional" tunes a little, but, bottom line: they are happy campers now, and have no desire to "see" where their VE's are now.
Road manners, gas mileage, running with the pack, pinging issues, starting issues, all are dialed in where THEY like it! Real world.
Disclaimer: JMHO, and NO disrespect to Doc and others. I really respect what the tuners do, and have watched them many a time!

[HogMike]

Here is the tune I have programed right now.
Couple of notes. I think I should not go over 45 degrees of timing so I may lower the higher numbers. Yes I did add timing to the area I was getting knock, but I also added fuel to see the effects. Maybe learn something about that. So far the front tire has been getting very light to the point it lifts the front tire after I shift second, but doesnt stay up , just kind of bunny hopps . I want the tire to come up but something tells me Im not going to do that with stock heads.

Ahhhhh............NOW I see what your goals are! LOL 

If I could suggest, get another bike! About 113 or larger, THEN your front wheel will come up more easily!
JUST KIDDING.
I have noticed that riding styles are quite different from East coast to West.

[mayor]

N-grin,
I think you are trying to run way too much timing advance in the higher load areas. Even if the ion knock sensing is ok with the advance you are running, the engine is probably well past max best tq with those values at 90-100 kPa. 

I have doubts that your knock retard would find those advance levels agreeable, so my guess is you haven't fully tested those.  Go back and read reply# 32 of this thread for instructions on testing the wide open throttle timing: http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,43433.0.html 

the other thing you need to keep in mind is just because it isn't pinging, doesn't mean you are making the most power.  The dyno guys can easily see where max best tq is, diy road tuners can not so it's best to err on the side of caution. 

p.s. I think you should read reply 37 again too.   

[N-gin]

Hogmike: I would love to do a 113 Believe me!! But I just cant get over the fact that my cylinders actually have something to do with the alighnment. Meaning If I go bigger on the cylinders doesnt it make them more weak and more prone to flex during hard riding not to mension the stresses on the engine. Maybe Im just worrying too much. When I finally destroy my stock connecting rods due to engine stress and have to go with H-beam rods maybe then the 113. Almost sounds like I want the engine to go bad just to have an excuse to go bigger and better

[N-gin]

Mayor thank for replying. I was wondering about getting the most torque from best timing. I will be sure to read what you have sugested. I have not run the bike yet due to weather conditions.

[N-gin]

Mayor I noticed you remembered the last post from me tunning.
I was having issues with my O2s then. I had contamination. I have cleaned the O2 sensors and ran the engine pretty good. IT cleaned up my readings. I have since then been messing with tuning. I did extend my tables, I just dont know why it didnt show up. Maybe I just need to do more V-tunes. Finding a place to do a fith gear pull is hard to do with the law. I have a friend who really good friends with a Harley dealer owner. The Harley Dealer also Believes in keeping there customers happy, unlike some others I have delt with. Ill see if he will allow me to hook my computer up next time on the dyno. Again thank you.

[mayor]

the VE values in the 90-100 kPa columns of the ve table has very little to do with wether the o2 sensors were working right at the time when compared to sampled afr. The 90 and 100 kPa columns are open loop columns, so the o2 sensor readings do not necessarily factor into the injector pulsewidths.  The ve values in those columns are what the ECM uses to determine the needed injector pulsewidths.  Based on your sampled results (wide open throttle afr), the ve values listed on reply #37 of your previous thread are closer to what you need than what you have now.

Keep in mind, more fuel does not always mean more power.  There does come a point of deminshed returns, and even reduced results.  Same goes for timing.