Mastertune

[-SeabrookTrickBagger]

I would like some information on the Mastertune for large FI engines 114 and above, street bikes.  I am helping a friend tune his 124 SnS engine on a dyna bike.  Specs are:  SnS heads, square exhaust port SA heads.  Burns stainless exhaust.  11 to 1 CR.  Redshift 657 cams.  SnS indep runner intake and TB.  Stock primary gearing.  Chain final drive, I don't believe the sprocket is much bigger than the stock belt sprocket he took off.   He had the Sns ECU and no one could get it to work so it now has a DTT III.  I can get the DTT III to run just fine once I get it started which is the problem:  starting.  I have to crack the throttle to get it started.  (Yes, I tried manual IAC override and readjusting the butterfly gap, to no avail as of yet).  So, I thought I might suggest he try this system since the DTT TCFI is, in my experience, notoriously had to find the sweet spot for the starting setup parameters and if I can't get it to start correctly, then I might consider this system.

The reason I go through all this is to describe the engine set up in order to get competent advice on whether the Mastertune might be the magic pill to fix his problem.  The bike was built almost two years ago, and he has yet to ride it for any appreciable time due to starting problems which throw the DTT TCFI out of sync and his prior SnS VFI ECU which just did not work.

Again, the bike runs just fine, but starting requires a bit of throttle.  So, I doubt there are any other problems with the engine or the off idle tune.

If this system can shorten the fix time and cure his starting problems, well, I suspect the owner of that bike will adopt the engineer who designed it........ Is this system easier than the DTT III to adjust in the starting circuit for larger highly modified engines? If so, why?

Wolfgang Grasser built the engine.

Seabrook

[eddfive]

By "indep runner"  do you mean the dual runners?  I ran the VFI system without autotune for a couple of years and with autotune for a year.  The bike ran good but would tune itself out at idle.  After a day of riding I would have to adjust the idle area again.  This was before I knew anything about tuning and was playing with it on my own.  I tried the Delphi ECU on this set when we made my bike a 124.  I believe regardless of the tuner, with delphi ECU and SERT back on it would throw a MAP code.  The dual runners of the S&S have the MAP sensor location on the opposite cylinder and I would of had to do some plumbing and modification to get it to work properly.  My data is a few years old but I chose to go with a single runner(Kury 57mm), back to the Delphi ECU, SERT 4.77, and all is good and running.  No startup or idle issues.  I have a 2003 Road King.  I want to emphasize my experience here is a couple of years old, the newer VFI systems seem to work pretty well.

  Now that I have been trained for tuning by one of the best(Uglydougly), I could have made the VFI system work just fine.  I have played with it now on a few cutomer bikes and S&S's new stuff works pretty well and bikes run well.  If you use the customer(basic) VFI software, autotune, the bike will run and there are only a few basic tables to adjust so you can not get in trouble. 

[-SeabrookTrickBagger]

By "indep runner"  do you mean the dual runners?  I ran the VFI system without autotune for a couple of years and with autotune for a year.  The bike ran good but would tune itself out at idle.  After a day of riding I would have to adjust the idle area again.  This was before I knew anything about tuning and was playing with it on my own.  I tried the Delphi ECU on this set when we made my bike a 124.  I believe regardless of the tuner, with delphi ECU and SERT back on it would throw a MAP code.  The dual runners of the S&S have the MAP sensor location on the opposite cylinder and I would of had to do some plumbing and modification to get it to work properly.  My data is a few years old but I chose to go with a single runner(Kury 57mm), back to the Delphi ECU, SERT 4.77, and all is good and running.  No startup or idle issues.  I have a 2003 Road King.  I want to emphasize my experience here is a couple of years old, the newer VFI systems seem to work pretty well.

  Now that I have been trained for tuning by one of the best(Uglydougly), I could have made the VFI system work just fine.  I have played with it now on a few cutomer bikes and S&S's new stuff works pretty well and bikes run well.  If you use the customer(basic) VFI software, autotune, the bike will run and there are only a few basic tables to adjust so you can not get in trouble. 

Indep runner = dual runner = dual plenum, yes.  I don't know if he has the old or new version of the VFI.  Anyway, if I go back to the VFI which was removed by a indy in Oklahoma when he could not get it to tune and therefore put on the DTT III, I am sure the owner would have a heart attack thinking we were going in circles.  Personally, I run the Kuryakyn 57mm also, but he has the big bit*h intake on his bike.  (Curious you run 4.77 gps injectors on an engine that big since I see injectors in that range at 114 CI or thereabouts with 600 lift cams, more or less.  I guess the proof is in the pudding, and if yours did not work, I suspect you would know.  Schroeder recommends 6.1 gps for engines smaller than 114 which no one I know of follows, choosing to go smaller like you did.)  Doug teamed up with Kevin Turner a few years back and both helped me by long distance to tune my bike when I first attempted to do it with the DTT TCFI II, not the IId which I upgraded to.  His bike has been to Rucker in Dallas, Lozano's in Cibolo, Texas and a builder in Oklahoma at which time the VFI was removed and DTT III installed.  Not one of them to get the VFI to work on his bike.  It has been two years.  Thanks for the words of encouragement.  I guess I will just have to try harder, longer and smarter.

As far as having a knowledgeable and experienced tuner on a DTT III, Bob, when it comes to the DTT TCFI, I am "it" in this area.  And, if I am not "it", then I am all that he has and it will have to do.  However, if he decides to switch to Nitro, I guess I can take it to Kevin's shop, move Nitro Scott's nitro bike off the rack and have Kevin get after it.  But since I do Kevin's DTT TCFI tuning for him at his shop, it is not an option on the current build.

[eddfive]

4.77 SERT refers to the last version of SERT, nothing to do with injectors.

[-SeabrookTrickBagger]

Thanks for the offer.  I doubt I will give up on the DTT III since we are a cu$t hair away from where we need to be.

The bike has gone through three 85 tooth ring gears (Ruckers, Cibolo and Oklahoma), Rivera type, and the moral to that story is use the 66 no matter what on these bigger engines.  Point being as soon as the 66 tooth is in, and the compression releases are checked, I will get back on the DTT III.  If I get it to start ----WHEN I get it to start consistently I will post a picture of him riding it in the rain with his helmet windshield wiper flappin' away!

The bike spent a part of its life in Cibolo and going back there might give it gas.

I think we are stuck with the DTT III at this point.

Possibly his VFI ECU was shot or ended up that way.  Who knows.....

If I can't get him satisfied, I will show him your post and sic him on you ----- he is a crusty ol' dude--------- but not dangerous ------- I hope.

[eddfive]

Do you still have the Harley Delphi ECU?

[-SeabrookTrickBagger]

His bike has been to Rucker in Dallas, Lozano's in Cibolo, Texas and a builder in Oklahoma at which time the VFI was removed and DTT III installed.  Not one of them to get the VFI to work on his bike.  It has been two years.

Seabrook, Mike Lozano is a good friend of mine. He and his brother built the 765 hp injected chevs used in a IMSA GTP car I drove in 1983-7 for a team called Conte Racing out of Paramount, CA.
Here's a picture of the maiden voyage of a Lola T600 in its first race @ Mid Ohio in '83. Note the windshield wiper's path in the center of the windshield. It was raining like hell and I couldn't see worth crap. In case you're wondering, the drive sits on the R/H side of the cockpit. They didn't have enough time to check w/s wiper operation before the race started. Started 2nd to Bobby Rahal (his home track). He fell off on the second turn and I led for about an hour. Then I had to come in to have the windshield cleaned because I could no longer see out. I literally loosened the 5 point harness and stuck my head out the window @ 100+ mph in the pouring rain. No one ever accused me of being sane. 



Mike's a great guy with a lot of power-making history behind him and his brother.

He bought a Dynojet 250i dyno a few years back when he started drag racing HDs. I believe his son still runs the dyno for R&D and some tuning.
If you are close to him I can give him a call on your behalf if you still need to get the bike running for your customer?, as I haven't spoke with him for a while and it would give me an excuse to say hey.

Anyway PM me with particulars if you want me to see if I can help. Believe me I know the VFI can be a challenge as I was trained by S&S a couple years ago and gave them fits because I wasn't leaving theere till I understood how the system works and and how to make it work on big, nasty builds. I truly believe it is why they went to closed loop same as T-max did.

Bob Lobenberg

Well, that is quite a photo.

I used to race and I still race.

Here is a photo of my latest full race effort.    Hope the link works.


http://strongarmsprays.com/SitePages/Bikers/Pix1/RedneckMotorcycleClassic.jpg

[-SeabrookTrickBagger]

Do you still have the Harley Delphi ECU?

Unfortunately, he did not get it back from one of the guys who tried to get his bike to run.  But, I have one I can lend him to get things going if necessary.

What is your idea?

[eddfive]

To get any of the Delphi tuners to work you will have to have the original ECU.  Borrowing an ECU would be problematic as this borrowed ECU will have to be married by a dealer to the bike(Vin Number).  Once married it would be no good to you on the return as it would have been married to another bike. He really needs to get his original back so that any of the Delphi tuners can work.  Then a dyno tuner can get it all dialed in and any issues should be resolved.  There would still be the MAP issue with the dual runners and the Delphi module, but it sounds like FLTRI has a fix for this.  Not sure of any budget issues here but maybe a new single runner TB might make it all easier.  I am still somewhat suprised the S&S VFI module never worked, this should work as the build is mostly S&S components.

[-SeabrookTrickBagger]

It is an idea. 

I will have him try to get the OE ECU back.

I will try to finish with the DTT III and if I cannot get the starting process fixed, he may have to consider your suggestion.

Thanks.

[-SeabrookTrickBagger]

Seabrook,
You have a PM
Bob
[/quote

Best to use the email address (put Harley in Subject line of email so spam filter will not block it) in my profile since I am not PM proficient.  I replied via website PM but I have not idea if it worked........

Seabrook