TMax

[cardboard]

The collect Data program in the TM only runs for a few minutes. How can I sit on the bike with the TM plug under the seat.
And use the notebook computer while riding. would that not be tough on the hard drive on the notebook with all the viberation and all.

[Ajayrk]

I'm a Windows 7 user but not and expert, pardon if I am butting in.  I also want to learn more about the TMax so I am following this thread.

If data recordings are saved in the TMax folder with Windows7 they should be under:
Documents\Public Documents\Thunder Heart\TMaxI_Tuner\Monitorlogs\ a date the log was recorded

[mayor]

The collect Data program in the TM only runs for a few minutes.

really, are you sure?  I've not used the Tmax dbw ecm, but I have recorded data on the Tmax gen2 and the only limit to record time was how long the battery lasted on the lap top.  Maybe the data recording is only limited when the end intent is to send the data to Zippers?    

How can I sit on the bike with the TM plug under the seat.

I forgot that the DBW set up is different than the gen2.  On the gen2, you just have to remove the right side panel.  Having never worked with a DBW Tmax, I don't know what to tell you on how to work around this.  Maybe someone else has a solution.  Without some data, everything is guess work.  I see some areas that we can lean out the afr a little, so we may still be able to improve milage without recording data.  here's another Tmax thread that's going on right now that is discussing improving milage without recording data: http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,47622.0.html

Have you ever checked to make sure that the o2 sensors were well into the exhaust flow stream on those pipes?  sometimes an idle issue with a closed loop system is due to a lack of good data being received by the ecm.  Have you also checked to make sure that you don't have any exhaust leaks?

And use the notebook computer while riding. would that not be tough on the hard drive on the notebook with all the viberation and all.

the vibrations from data recording can be tough on a laptop, but I have well over 1,000 miles of data recording between two bikes/efi systems and my lap top is still alive and kicking.  The key is securing the laptop to minimize movement. 

If data recordings are saved in the TMax folder with Windows7 they should be under:
Documents\Public Documents\Thunder Heart\TMaxI_Tuner\Monitorlogs\ a date the log was recorded

that sounds about right.   

[cardboard]

On the TBW the Thunder-Max Plug is directly on top of the TM which is under the seat. Not on a cord from removing the side panel.
When you run the program collect data it only runs for like 2 1/2 minutes if I remember correctly.
And when its threw it stores it in a pop up file to be transmitted to TM

I have the Fuelmoto stainless header pipes, the came with the bungs welded in. Both 12mm and 18mm bungs.
And the Supertrap Stout mufflers. From the time I have put everything on new it runs the same
Got a buddy with the same setup on his 103 bike, and have another buddy with a 110cu and we are all having about the same problems and non or us are gettin any fuel milage
out of the TM. We all lost fuel milage when we installed it. And we have had Idle problems.
And sometimes when we started with some downloads it would Spit out the TB .
two of us has talked a lot with Zippers Tech support.
They try to blame it on something else.
But if we take the TM off and stick the stock computer back in the problems are gone.

[Ajayrk]

Did you use stock tapered exhaust gaskets or the flat S/E gaskets. 
I have found that the flat S/E gasket don't seal properly on the TC because
the flange will bottom out on the head before it seals and you get a leak.
(The counter bore for the gasket is deeper than an EVO)
That could cause the O2 reading to be off.

[cardboard]

Got Tapered Exhaust in all 3 bikes. Although if'n I remember right Fuelmot said to use SE Gaskets.
We have sprayed stuff at the intake flanges to see if it had a leak. And it didn't
Everthing was tightened down with a digital torque wrench.
Do you think we would have the same problem out of 3 bikes with about the exact same setup?
I personally think there is a bug in the programming.
Zippers says they got the AFR's setup to be used across the U.S.
The fuel up north, is different than the fuel down south, and the fuel in California is different than here.
All I know is the fuel is junk and don't last long and I don't like ethanol in the fuel.

[mayor]

Do you think we would have the same problem out of 3 bikes with about the exact same setup?

do all three bikes have the same pipes?  I doubt that all would have an exhaust leak issue, but if all are running the same pipe there could be an issue with the bung placement/depth that isn't working well with the Tmax.  Just because bungs are welded in my the manufacturer, doesn't mean they are right.  Not saying that's the problem, just saying you should check to make sure that it isn't.  The way these closed loop systems work is simple: it doesn't matter what the afr actually is, only what the ECM is being told that it is.  Meaning, if the ecm is being supplied with bogus data, it makes it's decisions with the bogus data. A closed loop system can easily run a cylinder rich or lean based on bad data, so the key is to make sure that the ecm is being supplied with the best data possible. 

here's one thing that really stuck out to me on the map 7 that you posted:

It's not uncommon for the rear cylinder to have collected less data than the front, but the rear in this case has only collected about 2/3 the data that the front has collected. The front was also correcting the base map more, than the rear.  The rear is an offset of the rear, so this may be ok but it seemed odd to me that the front was much more active in fuel corrections than the rear.  This may be normal, but I think this is a good place to look at the o2 sensor connections and bung depth.  May be nothing, but it's work looking at. 

[Ajayrk]

I personally think there is a bug in the programming.

There could be a bug in the program.
I mentioned the gaskets because they were the root of one of the problems that the TMax had.

I fought a problem with a TMax, and tried all the electronic adjustments and mechanical changes to the mufflers that usually work without any success.
Replaced the flat gaskets with the stock gaskets and the issues were solved. 
Later on there was an issue with the HTS and a poor ground.  Replaced the HTS and repaired the ground fault and problems again solved.

Problems were aggravating but I still like the TMax.

[cardboard]

Put tapered gaskets in myself

[cardboard]

I personally think there is a bug in the programming.

There could be a bug in the program.
I mentioned the gaskets because they were the root of one of the problems that the TMax had.

I fought a problem with a TMax, and tried all the electronic adjustments and mechanical changes to the mufflers that usually work without any success.
Replaced the flat gaskets with the stock gaskets and the issues were solved. 
Later on there was an issue with the HTS and a poor ground.  Replaced the HTS and repaired the ground fault and problems again solved.

Problems were aggravating but I still like the TMax.

ONe bike had V&H power Duals on it, with V&H mufflers. He has more problems.
He took them off and got the Fuelmoto header pipe and 4.5 FM mufflers.
He put in Brand new Tapered Gaskets on his too.

The other bike has the same  header pipe and had his mufflers done by american customs.
He said he used new tapered gaskets.
I have gone in and wrote the learned IAC codes and cleared them. I also have the learning adjustment at 10% instead of 5%
What should I do now. Two of us has been changing to different maps, and runing the bikes for a year now.
Still poor fuel milage .
If my buddy takes the TM off his bike and puts the stock ECM back on with just a download he gets like 42-44mpg with his 110cu motor on his SG.
Right now he gets about 34 mpg if that.

And yes we have checked to make sure the 02 sensors are tight. I put mine in myself.

I have installed the TM in about 8 bikes

[cardboard]

Don't know if you have seen a set of Fuelmoto Jackpot stainless header pipes. But in case you have not here they are.

http://www.jackpotmufflers.com/headpipes.htm

[mayor]

What should I do now. Two of us has been changing to different maps, and runing the bikes for a year now.
Still poor fuel milage .

Let's try tweeking the afr tables a little to see if we can get some better mileage for you.  I saw the afr tables are really set rich in the early TPS settings points throughout the typical riding ranges.  I attached a map I want you to try.  I already wrote your learned offsets to this map. 

Here's an idea of some of the changes I made (you can use the yellow markers for reference to where the settings were):

if you look at where the base map was, the lower TPS settings were quite rich.  I'm not sure if they did this on purpose to improve drive ability in these ranges or not, but this should improve milage if the richer setting is not needed.  I made adjustments to quite a few of the afr tables, so it may take a little while for the auto-tune module to get everything dialed back in.  If you run into any issues with how the bike is running, try to make a mental note of what rpm the trouble is occurring and we will regroup from there. 

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[cardboard]

Man Thanks. I'm  kinda all excited again
Been workin on this for a year..
Already installed the map you posted  in my bike.
Gonna ride to a Academy Saturday to get some shoes. Haven't bought any in a couple years.
Its 50 miles  there and ride around before I come back.
Ready to see how the program work.
Thanks Mayor. I really appreciate your help
Got my fingers crossed hoping it makes a difference.
CAn't wait.

[mayor]

no problem.  Take mental notes if anything doesn't feel quite right.  I doubt you notice, but you never no. 

[cardboard]

I'll try to take it on a test ride first. I got a few things I need to do 1st.

Let her idle till she reached 285* earlier after I installed the map.

Thanks for the help. I can't wait to try her out this weekend.
Will let you know how it goes.

[mayor]

I haven't worked with a Tmax dbw yet but I'm curious there's no IAC on a dbw, so why run it to temp? 

[cardboard]

I haven't worked with a Tmax dbw yet but I'm curious there's no IAC on a dbw, so why run it to temp?

I've installed TM on bikes for about 5 yrs.
That is what I have always done so the bike can learn where everything is. The TPS and ,All the sensors .
Just like turing the switch on and off 3 times for 30 seconds.
Since I have been doing the TBW I still do it the same.

[Admiral Akbar]

It's not uncommon for the rear cylinder to have collected less data than the front, but the rear in this case has only collected about 2/3 the data that the front has collected.

How does this happen?? Rear cylinder runs slower then the front?

Max

[Coyote]

Front cylinder angles forward which is faster than the rear. Duh! (Coyote is going back to the shallow end now)

[mayor]

I don't know why it does that, just that it does based on looking at the data points collected on quite a few Tmax control center reports.  The rear always seem to have a little less points collected than the front, but not to the extreme that cardboard's does.  Take a look at some of your old reports Bruce, I'd be curious to know if yours is not the same.

[Mopar]

The instructions for my TMax TBW says the initiation sequence is different the standard TMAX.

IMPORTANT STEP BEFORE STARTING
Initialization Procedure
Required for new module installation, or when interruption of 12v power takes place. Example: batterychange, removal of maxi fuse, etc.

Turn the ignition switch on and the handlebar rocker switch to run for 20 seconds, uninterrupted.

Cycle the ignition switch off and on, then start the engine. (not the rocker switch)

Let the motorcycle idle on its own for 15 seconds.

Cycle the ignition off and restart the motorcycle; normal idle speed should be attained
depending on engine temperature.

Warm-up cycle will have slightly elevated idle speed (approximately 1200
rpm) until engine reaches operating temperature.

To disconnect from the PC, click the Unlink button (turns to red),
remove the USB cable and snap the weather seal plug into the USB cable port.
Position the retainer plate over the weather seal and tighten the retainer plate screw.
Congratulations! You have successfully installed and set up your ThunderMax ECM. Now it’s time to ride the
bike and let ThunderMax optimize your EFI system!

[Jamie Long]

As far as mileage goes, most of the Tmax calibrations use AFR strategies that generally vary from 13.5-13.8 in the cruise range and then blend as rich at 12.2-12.6 at WOT, these are much richer than the Harley OEM and 50 Stage calibrations especially thru the cruise range, however as Mayor and others noted earlier these targets are easily adjusted in the calibration as you have full control of the mixture. Both Zippers and Fuel Moto can help make any necessary adjustments and you are welcome to contact us.

As far as our Jackpot head pipes the O2 sensor bungs and locations were tested extensively with both stock and Wideband sensors for proper operation in a wide range of applications, the bungs are cnc machined from 304 stainless to exact specs, each pipe is assembled and double checked in a cnc fixture, we have sold thousands of these pipes which have been on the market since 2009 and I have personally tuned hundreds of bikes with them with absolutely no issues. Dynojet, Zippers and Revolution Performance each have experience with our exhausts and have recommended them to a wide range of customers as well.

[7hogs]

Is that a stock MAP? I can see why it is getting bad mileage

[cardboard]

Man it rained Thursday nite and friday mornin. And got really cold last nite.
It's not much above freezing outside.
Don't know if I will get to test the program Mayor changed for me or not.

[mayor]

could be worse, been spitting flurries here for the last two days.  If the changes I made makes a difference with no ill effects, we can adjust the afr a little more. Having not played with a TBW Tmax map before, I didn't want to go too much the first time.