2012 TTS Tuning with engine changes

[Thumper Buttercup]

We'll I kinda screwed the pooch today.

We picked up our air filter parts and got so involved in mounting up the Air Filter
I forgot to load up the new Calibration to run with this morning.

So the bike was loaded with the vtune-029 that we finished up with the other
day and did not load up the -030 that came from that ride.

So we did three scandata runs and the bike was running perfect, we were getting
42 mpg on the first scan and the bike ran cool and had a lot of power.  This was
running 65 and mostly 55 mph.  Oil temp was just over 180 degrees.

That run was scandata-029  https://www.box.com/s/1b733ca4f7dde3648c45

Then the second run still using the vtune-029 we were running about 67
mph the whole run, it was short and we got about 37 mpg, we did feel some
heat on this run.  Oil temp was just over 200 degrees this run.

That run was scandata-030  https://www.box.com/s/ff609a454a34d498e3c5

We took off up the interstate running the third data run, we were really building
up heat now, I was starting to think and this is when I thought I had not loaded
the new Cal that morning, so we pulled off the interstate and stopped the
scandata-031.  https://www.box.com/s/e9ad87e64009c24b3049

So we loaded up the tune Scandata-032 and finished up the run up the interstate,
a bunch of heat, looking at the data we had some knocking also.  This run
only got us about 32 mpg running 77 to 80 mph.  Oil Temp was running about
230 here with a lot of heat coming off the exhaust.

Cal Scandata-032  https://www.box.com/s/0d00b89e825fc553607d

Data Scandata-032  https://www.box.com/s/096b251bac45d3419888

I guess we need to pull some timing to cool this down.


Now my question of the day is why the bike ran cooler and better and got
great fuel mileage running the vtune-029.  The heat was back, why all the
heat with a regular tune??  Thanks guys.

[Jeffd]

How many miles are you going befotr filling up?

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[Thumper Buttercup]

How many miles are you going befotr filling up?

First run 121.3 miles

Second Run 48.9

Third run 79 miles

[Jeffd]

I do not think that is enough miles per fill up to accurately determine mpg as it is nearly impossible to fill to the same level and 3/10's of a gallon makes a bit difference in 49 or or even 78 miles.

[mayor]

I do not think that is enough miles per fill up to accurately determine mpg as it is nearly impossible to fill to the same level and 3/10's of a gallon makes a bit difference in 49 or or even 78 miles.

that's way to small of sample size.

So the bike was loaded with the vtune-029 that we finished up with the other
day and did not load up the -030 that came from that ride.

So we did three scandata runs and the bike was running perfect, we were getting
42 mpg on the first scan and the bike ran cool and had a lot of power.  This was
running 65 and mostly 55 mph.  Oil temp was just over 180 degrees. 
......
Now my question of the day is why the bike ran cooler and better and got
great fuel mileage running the vtune-029.  The heat was back, why all the
heat with a regular tune??  Thanks guys.

your engine temp was already climbing into the 250° range towards the end of that first run.  My guess is you didn't start feeling the heat because it hadn't started soaking into the bike yet.  As you continued to ride, the bike continued to spred the heat. I think the stopping to change cals and switching recordings added to this as well. 

do you still have your lowers on?   

I'm not quite sure what to do to decrease the operating temp at cruise, so we are going to do an experiment with two different cals.  Cal scandata -033 has reductions in timing in the 2k-6k rpm's from 15kPa-70kPa, and cal-034 is cal -033 with some increases in timing in the 2k-6k rpm's from 20-50 kPa.  What I want you to do is test each one under the same conditions, meaning don't load one right after running the other when the engine is already heat soaked.  What I want to see if how each of these affect the engine heat.  This will mean that you will need to test these on two different days.

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[Don D]

Excuse me I have not read the whole thread but reality check I think is in order
First pulling timing will not lower heat unless knock activity is present. At steady states like you mention on a nearly stock MC that is not likely. In some cases added timing may help them run cooler plus use less fuel.
Second they are hot, they are air cooled and 230° oil temp for a late model running closed loop is very reasonable and depending on the exhaust and the ambient there will be a ton of heat. Some of that is normal but pulling the cruise back of stoic a few tenths helps that and still keeps the motor happy.
Third a tuning scheme that employs a slightly richer target than 14.7 afr will decrease the mileage from the stock mark of about 50 highway. Most see in the low to mid 40s

[Thumper Buttercup]

Hey Don,

On that last run she was knocking or it was showing up in the scandata.
I don't think we are in the nearly stock bike stage, if you look under my
Exhaust question here in the AFR section there is a run down on our bikes
build.  Thanks for your in put I do read all you have to say on the other
threads here.

I'll take all the help I can get!!!

Mike,

    The first run was to a casino and we took a 40 min break and walked out
ahead to pay for the day, we then rode 36 miles with no computer to lunch
by the lake and the bike sat for over an hour during lunch, bike was cool
when we restarted our journey.

    I was going to run to Fargo then and not fill-up but we lost our data feed
and I went on and filled up.  We then rode over to Fargo and stopped and filled
up and took a 40 min break before we hopped on the interstate, we pulled
over at Hillsboro to upload the cal, we did not hop right on the interstate but
rode an adjoining road to get some data at the lower speeds to see if the
bike would keep getting hot at the 45-55 mph area's, then we hopped on
the interstate and I hauled butt.

Bike is with full lowers and the wings on the fairing with them open, my lowers
have vents that were fully opened for the last three runs.

The thing that is driving me nuts is why did the bike run so good for the 122 miles
with the vtune cal??  Even riding over to Fargo there was some heat but not like
it has been and not like we got with the cal with everything turned on.


We'll give them two cals a shot, looks like a crappy week here and we have issues
with the Velva Ride motor mount, getting a heck of a vibration at 2000 rpm when
decelerating.

I do have two more disks for the Exhaust, should I put them in also to see if it
helps or wait after we run these Cal's??


It's a tough job but we will keep riding this until we get her worked out, sorry
Kim but we have to go back to the casino and then go have lunch on the lake
again...twice .


Mike, don't forget to pm me your address.

[Thumper Buttercup]

OK more questions,

Kim want's to know what is considered a good head temp?

Looking at the data I think our head temps are looking good for the
most part, but why are we seeing more exhaust temps.  We might
add the last two disks to the muffler to try and help the flow more,
but I want to do more rides first.

I dumped the oil yesterday and it is black again, we are going to Redline
20-50 syn now, either the rings are set are they are not at this point of
the break-in.

We'll more miles and more riding will tell the story, maybe we are seeing
more exhaust heat because the bike is finally running right?

Do we need to do any EGR to bring down our VE's?  Looking at our Graphs
we are for the most part maxed out to me.  Just putting out what is running
through our minds on this rainy day.

[Jeffd]

My supermeg gets hot too it is black ceramic coat  head temps via the tts data show 240- 250 or so, by my ir thermometer a bit higer on front and ~350 or so on the rear hitting it at the spark plug area.  If oil is doing its job it should be dark color mine has always been on everything I own. Pull your lowers and it will cool down considerably as far as felt exhaust heat.  I pulled my vents out and cut them down by a couple inches but it still is not nearly as cool as running without lowers. 

[mayor]

First pulling timing will not lower heat unless knock activity is present.

I disagree.  You can easily build up heat from being overadvanced as you can underadvanced.  If you are over advanced you can be over working the engine, since the flame front could be happening to early to keep the momentum going which can result in heat.  Furthermore, the absense of spark knock does not necassarily imply that you aren't over advanced. 


Like Jeff said, 240-250 wouldn't be two uncommon for a big heavy bike loaded two up in full dress mode.  I usually end up around 230-240 on my touring bikes 1 up, with no lowers.  I would like to see if increasing the timing helps or hurts, since there is a line in which too much adds heat.   just run a test between those two cals Mark, and we will regroup from there.

[Thumper Buttercup]

Sound good,

I'm not going to make any configuration changes yet, lowers, exhaust
until we do these runs.  We will go from there.  The way the weather
looks we won't be riding this week.


I thought you would be playing with that dyno today .

[Steve Cole]

You guys need to get some of the items correct in the way you express them. IF you are reading temperature from the TTS DataMaster your reading the engine temperature NOT head temperature. While the sensor is located in the front head it's way to far to the outside on a Twin cam to be called Head Temp. The temperature you measure with a IR temp gun at or near the spark plug would be Head temp. and typically will be 50 - 100 degrees hotter than the data as it is engine temp. On a Sportster the sensor is truely in the middle of the head and reads much closer to a head temperature reading and this is just why Sportsters runs so much hotter by the gauge but in real life there close to the same temperature as a twin cam.

[Jeffd]

Steve i bet i have asked about that no less then 10x and finally got the answer.

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[Thumper Buttercup]

Thanks Steve,

    I'm planing on hitting the bike with our ir temp gun and get a better
idea where ours is going.  I had it in the Jeep the other day and forgot
to put it in the bike.  My plan is to get a real temp reading on them
pipes on the road.

[Jeffd]

Thanks Steve,

    I'm planing on hitting the bike with our ir temp gun and get a better
idea where ours is going.  I had it in the Jeep the other day and forgot
to put it in the bike.  My plan is to get a real temp reading on them
pipes on the road.

if you have chrome shields trying hitting them off the shields and on the pipes themself.

[Thumper Buttercup]

Hey Jeffd,

   We have the black ceramic coated also, last year I did a couple runs
and could shoot the engine and the exhaust while riding then hand
the gun back to Kim.


OK,

   I ran into this Friday, I could not remember if I had loaded up the Cal,
if I bring up the ECM info I just see the basic cal number, is there anyway
to check what Cal id you have loaded??

[Steve Cole]

When you make a change you should change the calibration number in the software, this way you can see the change once in the ECM.

[Thumper Buttercup]

Thanks Steve,

     I'll try and a better day next time so this will not bite me
in the butt again.

[wurk_truk]

I would read the IR gun right next to the spark plug...  between the plug and the rear head bolt.  Do NOT compare this reading with anybody else's temp reading, but the idea is to be consistent, and see if YOUR temps rise and fall.  Keep a small journal that tracks whatever tune is in the bike-vs-what YOUR temps read.

I do not feel one will see all that much difference (reading at the plug), regardless of what AFR they are running.  But, WILL see some swings due to timing.

[rbabos]

On a Sportster the sensor is truely in the middle of the head and reads much closer to a head temperature reading and this is just why Sportsters runs so much hotter by the gauge but in real life there close to the same temperature as a twin cam.

Always wondered about that. Good to know.
Ron

[mayor]

I would read the IR gun right next to the spark plug...  between the plug and the rear head bolt.  Do NOT compare this reading with anybody else's temp reading, but the idea is to be consistent, and see if YOUR temps rise and fall.  Keep a small journal that tracks whatever tune is in the bike-vs-what YOUR temps read.

furthermore.....
keep in mind that the rear will typically read higher than the front as well.  I see about 30° difference, but have seen where others have seen 50°. 

[mayor]

You guys need to get some of the items correct in the way you express them. IF you are reading temperature from the TTS DataMaster your reading the engine temperature NOT head temperature. While the sensor is located in the front head it's way to far to the outside on a Twin cam to be called Head Temp.

not that I disagree, but in reality this isn't a peer reviewed journal forum so we're just talking semantics.    I understand the reason to be specific in what we are discussing, but we also need to discuss things in as close of laymen terms as we can so that non-techies can follow along. I think this was the bassis of the "TTS Problems" thread that went sideways.  I read the original posters comments regarding the problems discussed as difficult to follow (meaning too technical), not that there are problems with the system (unfortunately the thread drifted that way).  I doubt that most folks reading the tuning section ever gave it a thought that the head temp comments were meant to refer to the combustion chamber, but rather the location of where the temp sensor is.   

[Steve Cole]

The problem is that the ECM treats things different. There is IAT, Head and Engine temperatures used. When you start talking about various HD models if you donot understand the differences you can and do get into trouble real fast. The layman needs to learn and use the right terms otherwise trouble is sure to follow.

[rbabos]

Trouble, that's Murphys little bro isn't it? I know them both well.
Ron

[Jeffd]

I would read the IR gun right next to the spark plug...  between the plug and the rear head bolt.  Do NOT compare this reading with anybody else's temp reading, but the idea is to be consistent, and see if YOUR temps rise and fall.  Keep a small journal that tracks whatever tune is in the bike-vs-what YOUR temps read.

furthermore.....
keep in mind that the rear will typically read higher than the front as well.  I see about 30° difference, but have seen where others have seen 50°.

Mine is much higher about 80* difference

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