Dyno tuners...care to share some details of your set up?

[sfmichael]

very interesting post - thanks

[Steve Cole]

Dyno rooms are designed to have a slight negative pressure. The door with the fans running should be able to pull closed when you hold the door about 2" from closed. This ensures that all the air is getting exchanged out of the room. As a rule of thumb the volume of the air in the room should be exchanged no less than 5 times per minute.

[lonewolf]

My doors will pull tight when I turn the fan on.

[johncr]

Thanks for the responses so far on the air.
One answer spawns another question. Steve mentions at least 5 changes per minute. Homework was done on this room and based on the information I gathered with the room about 900 cubic feet and 5200 cfm from fans (including duct work) the air should be exchanged about 5 to 6 times per minute. The big question, how can you test/verify that?

[Tsani]

A duct guy uses a tool, a hood, that can measure it.

[mayor]

I stopped by to visit my local indy with a dyno, he still doesn't have the dyno ready to run yet.  He's got a bike coming in next month he needs to tune though, and being that he hasn't tuned an efi bike yet...I'm guessing I get to help.     The bike is a stock '12 touring, that's getting a set V&H big shot duals (wouldn't have been my choice).  I don't think those have the 18mm bungs, which rules out me using my WEGO afr gauge to check wide open.  He was going to order a PC5 for his customer, but I think I have him talked in to waiting for the new TTS unit.  Bikerchoice is showing them to be available this week, so hopefully Steve gets those out and to the distributors before this guy's customer gets antsy and buys a piggy back system. 

you fellows using twin scan, how does that work on the MAP based lambda systems?  Does the afr chart match up with the kPa columns, or does it convert to tps based ve information?  I still haven't bought one, but I'm leaning towards it.  I'm just getting more curious on how they work. 

[wurk_truk]

IIRC, the TS +kit works fine for lambda bikes, ... it all lines up.  THIS is the kind of thing that a TS and a set of Herko blocks is made for.

[mayor]

yea...but....we're talking a grand or so for a fellow that has neither.    

[strokerjlk]

if you want to tune the pc 5 with autotune? I will send you the autotune with 18 mm  sensors and a set of manifolds to borrow? you guys have a vac pump?
the twin scan works great with Lambda base. you might have some extra break point data rpm/kpa
like you might have a 95 kpa column with t/s but not the particular map your using .
or extra rpms 3250-3750.

or you can wait on the other tuner. gives you time to get the t/s and tune a few other bikes in the meantime.
seriously you need to look at what your going to do about sampling AFR on whatever is throw your way. 

[strokerjlk]

and those pipes do suk
08 96ci FBW with 204 cams big shot duals
they hit the wall pretty quick

[wurk_truk]

Stroker is correct.  Ifn you wish, I can lend you a Herko kit AND a Twin SCan for a bit.  Look and make sure you DO have a vacuum source, Mike.

[mayor]

if you want to tune the pc 5 with autotune? I will send you the autotune with 18 mm  sensors and a set of manifolds to borrow? you guys have a vac pump? 

I appreciate the offer.  I'm hoping they hold out for the TTS system, since I'm at least familiar with that system.  If they decide to go with the PC5, I might take you up on that.  I've been curious about the PC Vision with auto-tune, and the wouldn't mind playing with the auto-tune module a little anyway. We'll see, but it probably will come down to how soon the new release of TTS actually is.  I think John (the indy) wants to start tuning sometime mid to late August.

seriously you need to look at what your going to do about sampling AFR on whatever is throw your way. 

yea...I've really been thinking about this.  I'm really leaning towards the TS unit, but I want to wait to see how committed John is on getting some bikes on his dyno.  I'm as cheap as the day is long, but I would spend some money on tuning tools if I thought there was some ability to recover some costs. At this point, I'm just not sure how committed the Indy is. 

Ifn you wish, I can lend you a Herko kit AND a Twin SCan for a bit.  Look and make sure you DO have a vacuum source, Mike.

I might take you up on the TS sometime for a different purpose.  I'm really considering playing with an open loop Delphi/TTS tune on my RK ('02), and the TS would sure help get that close enough for me to fine tune with my WEGO. 

[BVHOG]

The twinscan data logs by kpa on any model other than the cvo softail fbw setups, this as I understand after talking to Chris is on its way as well. You can still read everything real time on the softails but it only data logs them by tp vs rpm at the present time. Did one last week and had to manually log desired corrections while doing steady state tests. Sucked!!!!

[Ohio HD]

Mayor, I was wondering if you had ever gotten the chance to use the dyno at the shop near you? Just curious if you did, and what you learned that would be relevant to doing things differently with v-tuning on the dyno, vs. v-tuning on the street?  hhmmm, closed course I mean.

The reason I'm interested, I'm also going to have the chance to try my hand at using a dyno, hopefully in September. A friend is going to turn me loose after I put the 107 top end on my SG. He'll be in the back ground to catch me if I fall to hard....      

But he believes in my learning things under the gun, he wont show me too much, until I try to resolve things myself. He knows nothing about TTS or any Harley FI tuning software, so I'm on my own there. But he is an expert tuner, and engine builder. Does mostly vintage stuff, sport bikes, race motors, etc.

No Harleys! He gives me "Potty mouth" all the time!   

[flhxi2go]

About 4 years ago I got tired of rebuilding the DJ pump, and went to home depot and bought a shop vac and hooked it up. Works perfect and when it goes bad I take it back and get a new one for free

[1FSTRK]

If the room pressure rises it will be equal on the intake, exhaust pipe and the the dyno stack so it will record and correct the test at whatever the room pressure.

You are assuming that the SW reads the barometric pressure during the run?? Do you know this for a fact??

Max

Hey Max
Check out the pressure on the dyno screen during "Sampling" it does change in the base run. In the last run of the advertisement the PV screen covers it but I bet it is still under there.
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=54563.0
This appears to be at dyno jet in Montana and you will notice that while this set up could lack fresh air if the outside exchange rate was to small the pressure on exhaust, air cleaner and dyno stack (as long as it is  the same room) should be equal.

[mayor]

I stopped over to see John earlier this week.  He's got a bike sitting there, that will need a tune after he installs pipes and an AC on it ('12 103" touring-lambda based, V&H big shots).   The only hold up at this point is tuning system choice.  I'm hoping TTS has an option available soon so that we can start with a system that I'm comfortable with, but his customer is getting anxious.  The customer originally was considering a PC5, but it's back ordered from his source right now.  I would probably prefer to play with PCV instead, if the tuning system is a DJ product.  The problem is John's wholesale suppliers don't seem to carry the Vision, only the 5.

Well, I guess I'm jumping in, at least with one foot.  I ordered a set of Herko blocks.  I'm going to hold out on getting a TwinScan at this point.  I'm hoping that between the on board o2 sampling of the dyno and my personal afr meter we should be fine sampling the open loop areas. 

you fellows that mount the o2 sensor in the bungs when you are tuning open loop (and with Herko blocks), how are you doing that?  I mentioned this to John, but he didn't know how to disconnect the o2 sensor from the dyno and didn't even know you could. 

just use his pump for vacuum on the herko blocks.
take the sensor out of the pump and plug it.
now transfer the sensor into the herko block ,and pull a vacuum on the block.

if we use the pump already on the machine to pull the vacuum on the blocks, do we still need to mess with the filters?  I'm not sure what the purpose of the filters are, so I don't know if we'll still need to keep those fresh and clean if we just use the pump to pull air over a Herko block.

[strokerjlk]

  if we use the pump already on the machine to pull the vacuum on the blocks, do we still need to mess with the filters?  I'm not sure what the purpose of the filters are, so I don't know if we'll still need to keep those fresh and clean if we just use the pump to pull air over a Herko block.

Just normal maintenance . It isnt something you should have to be doing every tune.
I always let my pump run 30 min or so pulling on the blocks. ( motor off)Never shut the pump off until your done tuning and have pulled on the blocks for another 30 min. (motor off)
Works for me. I have no issues with filters or diagrams since I have been doing it this way.

[mayor]

thanks Jim.  Do you just leave your o2 sensors in the blocks, when not tuning?  I was thinking about picking up a spare o2 sensor, and just leave it in one of the blocks, and just connect that to the machine when in use. 

[strokerjlk]

thanks Jim.  Do you just leave your o2 sensors in the blocks, when not tuning?  I was thinking about picking up a spare o2 sensor, and just leave it in one of the blocks, and just connect that to the machine when in use.

No I don't leave them in the blocks, but that is just because I take the sensors out before I remove the blocks from the exhaust. I store the sensors in a DTT padded case.

[Herko]

thanks Jim.  Do you just leave your o2 sensors in the blocks, when not tuning?  I was thinking about picking up a spare o2 sensor, and just leave it in one of the blocks, and just connect that to the machine when in use.

Back when I would use the DJ AFR stack module I had a DJ O2 sensor in each of the head pipes or in each  the prototype Herko blocks. I had the long DJ AFR cable and connected it to one sensor or the other (while the bike still running). Next best thing to simultaneous front and rear AFR sampling. Develop a tracking system of your run files in some sort of odd/even (frt/rear) manner and you'll be fine.

[mayor]

what kind of mileage do you guys usually see being added to the odometer during a tune?  John asked me about that on Saturday.  I told him I doubted it takes much more than a couple hundred miles?   

[strokerjlk]

it gets to be a lot less miles the more you do it. 75 miles would be a good average .
the level of build plays a big part.
once you get a few timing tables worked out and begin to see what works with what,it cuts down miles.
I do WOT last. knowing when they are done making hp/tq and just quiting ,can cut down on several wot runs.
stage 1 lambda about 15 miles..

[Rider57]

60 to 75 used to be normal.I have some maps to use now so it has dropped to 34 to 40.

[mayor]

stage 1 lambda about 15 miles..

great, we shouldn't even have to turn the fans on for that.