Dyno tuners...care to share some details of your set up?

[mayor]

I met a local Indy that has a dyno.  He's an early 2,000's grad from MMI, and doesn't have any real experience with EFI. The fuel systems were still mostly carb based back then.   He has a nice shop, which is about 25 miles from me, but his dyno room is kind of lacking.  He has a nice newer 250i dyno, but his dyno room lacks a good quality exhaust vent set up and his cooling fans look kind of small.  His dyno business now is mostly doing 3 pulls for $50, with the only adjustment options being changing of carb jets.  Currently he uses a small exhaust fan mounted on the outside wall that pulls the exhaust outside (meaning no hoses connecting to the mufflers). This was probably fine for a few pulls on a carb bike, but I can't imagine that it's healthy when tuning an efi bike for any length of time.   

I think I have him talked into letting me play on his dyno while teaching him some simple fundamentals about the Delphi system.  I'm not sure who's more exited about it either, me or him.    He knows he needs to be able to tune efi bikes to keep up with the times, but he was thinking he had to buy an old used EFI bike to learn with.  The thing that I can provide is a couple of efi test mules, and a basic working knowledge of the systems.

My question to you dyno guys is care to share pictures of your dyno rooms, in particular exhaust capturing methods and cooling fan methods?  I would like to help give him ideas on what others might be doing.  I'd also like to hear about any potential things to avoid when developing these systems. 

Anyone open to openly discussing dyno tuning methods?  I'm not looking to put anyone on the spot, just interested in basic stuff.  I've never ran a dyno, and I have some basic dyno questions.  The dyno owner only knows what he's learned on his own, so his experience is kind of limited too.   Any of you guys don't mind answering newbie questions? 

[hrdtail78]

Can't have enough fans. Besides the two that came with it. I got one on my brake, big 15 inch on the front right side and I have a couple I blow on the slip-on's or exhaust. One for my computer.  Then I also have one that I can direct on me.  I have more fans than needed.  Probably but I hate to see 300 degrees on my brake. That thing is probably not cheap to fix. Good thing is most of these are used squirrel cages that are pretty cheap.

Since I am not doing R&D. I open my garage door for exhaust.  Someday I will make enough doing this to buy or build a cell.

[TXP]

My setup can be viewed somewhat on my website gallery at www.thunderxperformance.com I have the two DJ fans. Two large carpet dryers for the exhausts pipes to stop discoloration of the mufflers and one osculating and two smaller floor fans at the front to keep fresh air coming through the mobile dyno.

[mayor]

them's some healthy looking fans.     where did you get them?  is that you in the pictures TXP? 

[mayor]

I see you both mentioned fans on the exhaust.  I would have never thought about that, at least probably not until after I yellowed one of my sets.     All I could see in his dyno room were the fans on the dyno, so I'm guessing he hasn't spent much time running the machine on one bike.  Cool thing is I've had a rotating pedastal fan in my garage taking up space that I might have found a use for based on TXP's pictures.   

[johncr]

I have learned a ton from all the people willing to share their knowledge on this site. The least I can do is share what I've done regarding the setup of a dyno room.
I built my own dyno room in my garage. I live in a residential neighborhood so this is not the best place to be doing this.
As you can see I do not have the door on yet, hope to have it this weekend.
I built a complete room 4 walls and ceiling. Added about 5200CFM of air flow pulling through the room.
All the walls (panels) are steel frame, perforated steel on inside with a combination of Rock Wool insulation, drywall, house insulation and particle board on the outside. Sound proof panels is what they are.

As it is now a lot of sound get's absorbed in the walls inside. I am confident it will be sound proof enough but will have to find out how well 5200 cfm will do at extracting heat and exhaust.
One trunk of the air system is 18" and will pull air through the room and the other is a 10" trunk that I will direct to the back of bike via hoses or a homemade hood. This will pull the exhaust out along with just pulling more air through the room.

I have more pictures of the room construction but did not take any of assembling the wall panels.
Once the door is on and validate function of the air system I will purchase more of the necessary fans.
If I can help from what I've learned I am open to discuss.

John


Start of construction


Inside of Room with electric in and dyno moved in


Status as of today, air system installed and working. Should have the door ready this weekend

[Powerglides]

Good thread Mayor, I'll take some photos of my setup later and post them up with an explanation of the whys and wherefores, and what I've found in the light of experience. Good airflow and exhaust extraction is paramount.

[Sonny S.]

Hey John, where was it you said you live ? 

[johncr]

Hey John, where was it you said you live ? 

Suburb of Milwaukee

[TXP]

Yeah Mayor, thats my mug on there,,lol. I picked up those extra fans at Lowes. they are ShopVac brand 1600 cfm and do a pretty good job at keeping down the exhaust discoloration. Without calling a single manufacturer out, some of the very expensive true dual mufflers of today are difficult to get off the dyno without some discoloration especially if tuning at or near stoich. The addition of these fans pretty much cured the issue for me.

[hrdtail78]

Yep, some brands do it worse.  I never put it together with the fuel.  I always thought it was the hot exhaust hitting the restiction of the exhaust  Heat builds up there.  Kind of like a cat.

When you yellow a pair of satin silver Tab exhaust on a vrod with a destroyer crank.  Flitz dont help.  You loose all profit on the tune because the cost of replacement, and you go shopping for fans.

Another thing to consider is the computer.  A computor for a dyno can be pretty simple, but if you want to run winprep and say data master spark data.  A little bit more consideration needs to taken.  Example:  I put a serial port card in my computer.  It had dual plugs, so I figured I could plug in the dyno and run TTS with the other.  WRONG!  It was a single card w/ dual plug ins.  Seemed like TTS did the overriding and I was loosing data coming into Winpep.  It played some hell with me for a couple of hours before I tried the USB for TTS.  When I biuld my room.  The computer is going to be on the outside of it.

[aharp]

  When I biuld my room.  The computer is going to be on the outside of it.

My old computer finally died and had to get a new one. Due to the widely varying conditions of the dyno room we ran the wiring and cables through the wall into the machine shop where the weather is stable.
As far as suggestions go, good cooling fans is definitely a necessity. Another thing to be mindful of is the venilation system. There is an exchange rate that needs to be met to prevent the bike from breathing it's own exhaust. I don't run a tube over the muffler either because my venilation setup will pull on the exhaust so hard it will change the AFR 

[strokerjlk]

I didn't got to run any yet.  I hope too in the next couple of weeks.  He's not quite set up right yet.  He doesn't have a ramp to his dyno, and said he's been borrowing one from his truck when he does dyno pulls.  I've only been there twice so far, but haven't seen a bike on the machine yet.

if things get going good for youse guys,consider a pit. it make life so much easier.
just roll then on and off.
good for you Mike I hope it works out 

[mayor]

thanks Jim.  I'm difinately looking forward to playing.  He already has the dyno in a pit, but he had to block it up due flooding.     The dyno seems to be about 4" or so above his shop floor, which shouldn't be too bad.  The dyno sits a little bit away from the drop off though, so the ramps is more to act as a bridge to the machine.  He has a real nice shop that he built a couple of years ago.  I don't think he's used the machine much since he's bought it, so the dyno room and entrance to the dyno seems to be the catch all storage area.  I'm hoping that we can wear some of the newness off of that machine for him.    Seems a shame to me to have that much of an investment just sitting there. I think he feels the same way too, which is way he seems pretty happy to have someone willing to learn this stuff with him. 

thanks for all the replies so far guys.  I stopped by the shop again yesterday, and shared with John (shop owner) what you guys guys posted. He never gave fans on the mufflers a thought either.  Good thing you guys mentioned that, or we would have learned the hard way...and likely on my mufflers.      

He still has some prep work before we can get on the dyno (ramp, and housekeeping (dyno room is used for storage currently)), but with any luck he may be ready to do a couple of base runs in a week or so and we can start playing from there.   

here's some of my dumb questions of the week:

1. John mentioned several times that he doesn't think he has the most up to date AFR sampling set up.  He said that he things that DynoJet has a system that doesn't use the dyno mounted set up any more, said he thought there's a free standing set up that's available now?     The way he discribed it, it sounded like he was referring to something like the Herko blocks that would get mounted behind the mufflers. I told him that I think his current set up is probably just fine for sampling (at least for AFR based bikes that don't have cats).   

Here's his current set up:

he had some slight flooding in his dyno pit, that's why the dyno is up on blocks.     I'm wondering if a bike on the dyno for any length of time would cause the machine to vibrate off the blocks.   

2.  you fellows that mount the o2 sensor in the bungs when you are tuning open loop (and with Herko blocks), how are you doing that?  I mentioned this to John, but he didn't know how to disconect the o2 sensor from the dyno and didn't even know you could. 

3.  Is there a Bosch replacement part number for the o2 sensor?   

4. Does the dynojet software allow for two o2 sensor inputs? 

A computor for a dyno can be pretty simple, but if you want to run winprep and say data master spark data.  A little bit more consideration needs to taken.  Example:  I put a serial port card in my computer.  It had dual plugs, so I figured I could plug in the dyno and run TTS with the other.  WRONG!  It was a single card w/ dual plug ins.  Seemed like TTS did the overriding and I was loosing data coming into Winpep.  It played some hell with me for a couple of hours before I tried the USB for TTS. 

5. Do you just select record, then minimize the data master software and run that in the back ground while you are doing wide open runs?  What data recording type are you using during wide open runs?  I see there's a dyno data option, but I don't see front and rear knock retard data points in that. 

6.  I saw on his computer that he had tuning link software. Can anyone provide information on that?  I could only find limited information on this, but this appears to interface with Powercommanders?  He said he took a class somewhere, but he barely passed the test and didn't remember much about what he learned.   

thx in advance,
Mike

[lonewolf]

1. John mentioned several times that he doesn't think he has the most up to date AFR sampling set up.  He said that he things that DynoJet has a system that doesn't use the dyno mounted set up any more, said he thought there's a free standing set up that's available now?     The way he discribed it, it sounded like he was referring to something like the Herko blocks that would get mounted behind the mufflers. I told him that I think his current set up is probably just fine for sampling (at least for AFR based bikes that don't have cats).   

That's the older system that uses consumables. It can be upgraded to the newer style for around $500. The pump will still work with the Herko blocks.

2.  you fellows that mount the o2 sensor in the bungs when you are tuning open loop (and with Herko blocks), how are you doing that?  I mentioned this to John, but he didn't know how to disconect the o2 sensor from the dyno and didn't even know you could. 

The cable that connects to the o2 sensor can be unplugged and moved to the sensor in the pipe or block. Dynojet sells a cable that is about 15' long and I just switch it at the stack. My stack is in a drawer under the dyno, so I just cut the side out of the cover and slide the drawer out to swap cables.

3.  Is there a Bosch replacement part number for the o2 sensor? 

Bosch 16065

4. Does the dynojet software allow for two o2 sensor inputs? 

Yes , I think it is the WB Commander, but for some reason I don't believe you can display the second afr line.

5. Do you just select record, then minimize the data master software and run that in the back ground while you are doing wide open runs?  What data recording type are you using during wide open runs?  I see there's a dyno data option, but I don't see front and rear knock retard data points in that. 

I run a split screen, datamaster on one side and Winpep on the other. I have a bunch of different Winpep templates that I use depending on what I am doing and looking for. Wot I just use generic data to watch tp's, cht and knock retard. You would need the datalink module ($500) from Dynojet to display that stuff in Winpep and on the graphs. This is using the TTS, SEPST is a whole different kettle of fish as the program will not let you resize the window. Power Vision you have to watch their monitor to see the data.

6.  I saw on his computer that he had tuning link software. Can anyone provide information on that?  I could only find limited information on this, but this appears to interface with Powercommanders?  He said he took a class somewhere, but he barely passed the test and didn't remember much about what he learned. 

His lease would have to be up to date for it to be working. It links control of the dyno and the PC into one program. Very fast way to tune a PC, but has a few limitations that can be worked around by adjusting parameters in the configuration window while tuning.

Here's his current set up:
he had some slight flooding in his dyno pit, that's why the dyno is up on blocks.     I'm wondering if a bike on the dyno for any length of time would cause the machine to vibrate off the blocks.   

About 15 seconds? That looks dangerous as the blocks are facing the wrong way but even so the dyno needs to be bolted down. Steady state testing high load, low rpm areas will shake your teeth. I wouldn't like to see what would happen if one of those blocks broke. I have found that a lot of the different programs will not work properly when running a couple of cables joined together.

[Thumper Buttercup]

Mike,

   I would get a set of cinder blocks an cement fill them, then jack the
dyno up and like the other guys said lay the block on their side, that
would sure up the dyno better.

[rigidthumper]

I use two computers, left side has dyno stack, WinPep, Tuning Link, & printer software, right side has all the tuning software with USB and serial connectors for Direct Link, EBR, SERT, SEST, SESPT, TwinScan and TTS software. Huge air handler on the roof, with heater, and three stand alone fans for heads/mufflers.  Really want/need the DynoJet directed head fans, but can't talk SM into spending the $$$.

[strokerjlk]

you fellows that mount the o2 sensor in the bungs when you are tuning open loop (and with Herko blocks), how are you doing that?  I mentioned this to John, but he didn't know how to disconnect the o2 sensor from the dyno and didn't even know you could. 

just use his pump for vacume on the herko blocks.
take the sensor out of the pump and plug it.
now transfer the sensor into the herko block ,and pull a vacume on the block.
before you get too much money into sampling one cly with dyno jet.or uprgrading to a DJ dual AFR stack..... invest in a twin scan wego.

[wurk_truk]

..... invest in a twin scan wego.

This IS absolutely the truth of things.  Use the Twin Scan for the Herko blocks and fill out the whole tune this way.

When finishing up a TTS, (depending on muffler set up) one can either use the DJ and a sniffer, OR the DJ sensor screwed into a Herko.

[mayor]

I have a new appreciation for you dyno tuners....seems like anything you want to do to improve the tuning process costs $500.    

1. John mentioned several times that he doesn't think he has the most up to date AFR sampling set up.

That's the older system that uses consumables. It can be upgraded to the newer style for around $500.

by consumables, do you mean the filter set up?  is this older setup accurate when the filter is clean or is it a bad set up?

can someone post a pic of the newer style?

2.  you fellows that mount the o2 sensor in the bungs when you are tuning open loop (and with Herko blocks), how are you doing that?

The cable that connects to the o2 sensor can be unplugged and moved to the sensor in the pipe or block. Dynojet sells a cable that is about 15' long and I just switch it at the stack. My stack is in a drawer under the dyno, so I just cut the side out of the cover and slide the drawer out to swap cables.

it looked like the one at the back of the dyno had the wires run behind some of the outside covers.  is this right?  so the o2 sensor from the back of the dyno plugs into the stack?   if I buy a Bosch 16065 sensor, can I plug that in at the stack and let the one wired in the dyno chassis (but pull it and cap the block) ?

he had some slight flooding in his dyno pit, that's why the dyno is up on blocks.     I'm wondering if a bike on the dyno for any length of time would cause the machine to vibrate off the blocks.   

About 15 seconds? That looks dangerous as the blocks are facing the wrong way but even so the dyno needs to be bolted down. Steady state testing high load, low rpm areas will shake your teeth. I wouldn't like to see what would happen if one of those blocks broke. I have found that a lot of the different programs will not work properly when running a couple of cables joined together.

yea, I was worried about that as well.  I'm hoping he see's the need to fix that. 

[mayor]

before you get too much money into sampling one cly with dyno jet.or uprgrading to a DJ dual AFR stack..... invest in a twin scan wego.

I just met this Indy guy, so I probably would be more comfortable buying equipment that I can use on or off a dyno....just in case things don't quite work out.  as much as it pains me to say....I'm leaning towards buying a twin scan.  I need a little more coaxing though...There's another thread going on regarding twin scan, but the fellows over there haven't posted any pics yet (that's a hint to wurk and Ron).

why was I thinking that twin scan hooked up to the injectors?  was there an older set up that did that?    the current TS does everything through the data port and AFR box right?   

[hrdtail78]

The wego III plugs into the data port and has a jumper that allows you to plug in the twinscan.  Just buy the kit for about $500.

[mayor]

Yea...like I just said, anything you want to do to improve your tuning costs you around $500.   

[strokerjlk]

Yea...like I just said, anything you want to do to improve your tuning costs you around $500.   

It will be the best 500.00 you spend. Better get two.
Get a couple sets of blocks from herko, sometimes its nice to run three broadbands

[mayor]

Yea...like I just said, anything you want to do to improve your tuning costs you around $500. 

It will be the best 500.00 you spend. Better get two. 

heck, as cheap as they are..... maybe I should buy three.