Power Vision questions

[Jamie Long]

Ken the beta does have some spark temp control.  But I have more questions than answers as I am trying to learn and by the way I just come here to ask...

The new tables exposed from BETA where did it get the numbers to populate the tables?  Did they come from whats already there on the ECU?  If so I get why you have to plug into bike.  If not are those numbers from Dynojet?  Those tables already are in the bike right?

I can get through and pretty much understand the new tables under Environment.
But where does the bike get the spark adjust by Air Temp?  where does it take that measurement? and where did those numbers in that table come from?
Spark adjust by engine temp where does it get that?  that table is all ZEROS. Not to concerned with that if all ZEROS

The only one I do understand is Spark Knock by Head Temp I know where and what that temp is but again where did the values come from that are in that table?

Any new tables that are in the software are simply now "exposed" for the end user to work with. The Spark temp correction by Air temp is based on IAT, Spark temp correction by engine temp is based on the ET sensor.

**Updated** If a table has zero's, it would have been sucked out of the calibration this way and this table will not change (unless you put values in there and reflash) For example: if you extracted a calibration from the ECM and DE Multiplier was not a tune item, when you reflashed the calibration it would leave this table alone.

[remington007]

Bob
You need the beta version, then enter a code that opens up more tables. The histo turns into a magnified version that shows your position within the individual cell and the actual lambda you are at within the cell. So if you are at a position in the cell that is halfway to the right of centre and halfway up from center (45 degrees up right side) it will show how your effect of the cells above and to the right are influencing the current lambda reading. It's pretty cool watching the cursor float around in the cell, displaying the info.

I have the BETA version, What code do you enter to open up the magnified version of the PV screen?

[hdmanillac]

I have some difficulties with my road king FLHR09 to get a good tunning result with it's new configuration: Arlen Ness Big Sucker Air Filter, HD Headpipe without cat, B&E Superflow 2'' mufflers (Nice sound, good level) and PV (FW beta 1174).

Really interested on how to proceed with EGR (or Charge Dilution Effect). When I tune up (manual method or Autotune), VE increase a lot on rear cyl in low loads area of the map and even at iddle. The motor get some vibrations also betwin 1500 and 2000rpm even if everything seems to be ok (AFF, CLI...).

Waiting for Dynojet release about EGR...

[Jamie Long]

I have the BETA version, What code do you enter to open up the magnified version of the PV screen?

You do not need a code, when in datalogger mode (green screen) you can change modes to RT "Real Time" which zooms and slides automatically with the tracer.

[Ken R]

Ken the beta does have some spark temp control.  But I have more questions than answers as I am trying to learn and by the way I just come here to ask...

The new tables exposed from BETA where did it get the numbers to populate the tables?  Did they come from whats already there on the ECU?  If so I get why you have to plug into bike.  If not are those numbers from Dynojet?  Those tables already are in the bike right?

I can get through and pretty much understand the new tables under Environment.
But where does the bike get the spark adjust by Air Temp?  where does it take that measurement? and where did those numbers in that table come from?
Spark adjust by engine temp where does it get that?  that table is all ZEROS. Not to concerned with that if all ZEROS

The only one I do understand is Spark Knock by Head Temp I know where and what that temp is but again where did the values come from that are in that table?

Well, that Spark Table Adjust by Air Temp and Head Temp must reside in the PowerVision, ready to replace the tables in our ECMs. 
I finally succeeded in downloading the latest beta installer and beta firmware.  The tables are there . . . .and populated.  (all zeros in the Engine Temp table).  I always assumed that Engine Temp and Head Temp were the same, but I guess not. 

Spark Adjust by Air Temp is peculiar.  The range is from 32C to 144C.  That's some pretty hot intake air . . . I wouldn't want to be riding my motorcycle in that.  Global Warming?

The Adjust by Head Temp is about the same as the Spark Temperature Correction in MasterTune except that the temperature range and resolution is different. 

[oldguy]

Set your pv to read air intake temp and go for a ride- you'll see that air passing by the front cylinder is a lot warmer than the ambient.( or just open a log in excel and you'll see it all)

[strokerjlk]

Set your pv to read air intake temp and go for a ride- you'll see that air passing by the front cylinder is a lot warmer than the ambient.( or just open a log in excel and you'll see it all)

Sounds like you might have finally got a tune you like on that 131?

[Ken R]

Set your pv to read air intake temp and go for a ride- you'll see that air passing by the front cylinder is a lot warmer than the ambient.( or just open a log in excel and you'll see it all)

I thought IAT was the air that is actually being sucked into the throttle body from outside air (ambient air temperature). 

I once had a Vance and Hinds Draco air cleaner, but it has no backing plate.  The air being drawn into that air cleaner is mostly engine heated.  I measured that air at 145 F degrees or higher.

Sold it and installed a Big Sucker.  At least now the intake air is truly ambient air temperature, maybe slightly heated as it passes through the throttle body and manifold. 

So the Spark adjust by Air Temp isn't ambient air temp?   144C = almost 300 F.

 

[mgmmgm]

 

So,
A person can refine the map that comes from Fuelmoto by doing a data log?
Asking as I am going to get one ASAP.

Thanks

Mark

[LJfxst]

just a quick question is anyone else having trouble bringing up the acr control on the tunes for 2012 softail i am running the beta firware have updated the tune but am unable to get this to come up i have changed the heads on my bike and now have manual decomps and now have the engine light on

[Ken R]

Well, we had a wedding ceremony down in my workshop this evening.  Actually, first had a separation (restored the original factory data with TTS) and THEN had the wedding ceremony.  My PV is now married to my motorcycle. 

It was easier than I expected.  So far, the unit is very intuitive.  It guides you through the process, asking "yes /no" at every applicable point and explains the consequences/results.  I'm pretty impressed with the user interface so far. 

Before doing anything else, I started the motorcycle, let it warm up, and twisted the throttle a bit.  It sputtered a few times and hesitated a few times, just like it did when I restored the original map when I had to take it in for warranty service.  I did this to confirm that the motorcycle is indeed running the original map and doesn't like it.

After the PowerVision marriage, I loaded the ECM with the tune on which I've been working (off and on) for the past few days.  It's the Fuel Moto tune, modified to look like my existing tune . . . modified cell by cell in all tables that are the same in both units.  Started the motorcycle and let it warm up.  Twisted the throttle a few times . . . it seemed to feel the same as before restoring the original map.

So now, I'm studying about how to do a data log and create changes in the map, flashing the ECM.  I'm anxious to see the green screen with cells.  In my workshop, I can only simulate a few riding conditions to see what it thinks of the current tune.   After I get confidence with that, I'll go ride around a bit, log some data, and compare what I have to what the motorcycle wants. 

One thing for sure, this thing is fun.  The user interface and the many features make it so. 

[hogsty]

I'm using the beta software as well.  It is some cool stuff, but I have a question.  When using the "auto tune" button the default number of "hits" to use when tuning is 5.  That seems like an awful low number to get good data.  I don't want to raise it so high that it makes it difficult to gather data, but I do want the data to be good.  Do you think I should use 10? 20?  30?   What do you think would be a good number to use?

[Tre_11 FLHX]

In the Beta software document there is a warning that if you don't see
a file that looks like this ""10-FB4-JHMKORL.stk" or this "AMAEF000AA000xxx-10-FB4-XJMT6GH-fb089aa2.stk" then do NOT proceed with installing and using this firmware.

I currently have a file in my documents ANBAF000AA003926-11-KB4-9XAUVCL-8E2BC5CA.STK. I'm paranoid to proceed as this file is "like" what is listed but not exact.

Can I proceed, if not can anyone provide me guidance on what I need to do to proceed.

Tre'

[oldguy]

Set your pv to read air intake temp and go for a ride- you'll see that air passing by the front cylinder is a lot warmer than the ambient.( or just open a log in excel and you'll see it all)

Sounds like you might have finally got a tune you like on that 131?

Hi Jim
It runs really well now, runs smooth as silk. I don't know if the power is optimized w/o a dyno, but I don't care cause it pulls hard and gets good milage for what it is!

[mgmmgm]

Well, we had a wedding ceremony down in my workshop this evening.  Actually, first had a separation (restored the original factory data with TTS) and THEN had the wedding ceremony.  My PV is now married to my motorcycle. 

It was easier than I expected.  So far, the unit is very intuitive.  It guides you through the process, asking "yes /no" at every applicable point and explains the consequences/results.  I'm pretty impressed with the user interface so far. 

Before doing anything else, I started the motorcycle, let it warm up, and twisted the throttle a bit.  It sputtered a few times and hesitated a few times, just like it did when I restored the original map when I had to take it in for warranty service.  I did this to confirm that the motorcycle is indeed running the original map and doesn't like it.

After the PowerVision marriage, I loaded the ECM with the tune on which I've been working (off and on) for the past few days.  It's the Fuel Moto tune, modified to look like my existing tune . . . modified cell by cell in all tables that are the same in both units.  Started the motorcycle and let it warm up.  Twisted the throttle a few times . . . it seemed to feel the same as before restoring the original map.

So now, I'm studying about how to do a data log and create changes in the map, flashing the ECM.  I'm anxious to see the green screen with cells.  In my workshop, I can only simulate a few riding conditions to see what it thinks of the current tune.   After I get confidence with that, I'll go ride around a bit, log some data, and compare what I have to what the motorcycle wants. 

One thing for sure, this thing is fun.  The user interface and the many features make it so.

So, when you run a data log on the PowerVision, doesn't the device take that info, and by using the interface/ touch screen buttons allow that log info to integrate with the map, and change with the new data?

I am getting a PowerVision and want to understand the process myself.

Thanks

[strokerjlk]

Set your pv to read air intake temp and go for a ride- you'll see that air passing by the front cylinder is a lot warmer than the ambient.( or just open a log in excel and you'll see it all)

Sounds like you might have finally got a tune you like on that 131?

Hi Jim
It runs really well now, runs smooth as silk. I don't know if the power is optimized w/o a dyno, but I don't care cause it pulls hard and gets good milage for what it is!

that tells me a lot right there 
you have been through just about every tuning device on the market ,with that ole girl! glad to hear it

[Jamie Long]

So,
A person can refine the map that comes from Fuelmoto by doing a data log?
Asking as I am going to get one ASAP.

Thanks

Mark

Any PV tune can be fine tuned using datalogs and the PV log tuner software. There are step by step instructions on our website at http://fuelmotousa.com/PVlogtuner.htm

As discussed in other threads here, in the next several weeks there will be a significant firmware update that allows you to populate and apply tune corrections completely with the PV display unit, no computer required. We have this firmware/software available in Beta form for those interested and there are many out there running it. 

[Jamie Long]

just a quick question is anyone else having trouble bringing up the acr control on the tunes for 2012 softail i am running the beta firware have updated the tune but am unable to get this to come up i have changed the heads on my bike and now have manual decomps and now have the engine light on

It all depends on which Beta FW level you are running, we are moving some of the less significant tune items to the PV display. If ACR is not a tune item under Limits & Switches simply go to your PV display and go to "Quick Tune" by going to Settings>Enter Code>319247 and you can toggle ACR off along with many other options.

[Jamie Long]

In the Beta software document there is a warning that if you don't see
a file that looks like this ""10-FB4-JHMKORL.stk" or this "AMAEF000AA000xxx-10-FB4-XJMT6GH-fb089aa2.stk" then do NOT proceed with installing and using this firmware.

I currently have a file in my documents ANBAF000AA003926-11-KB4-9XAUVCL-8E2BC5CA.STK. I'm paranoid to proceed as this file is "like" what is listed but not exact.

Can I proceed, if not can anyone provide me guidance on what I need to do to proceed.

Tre'

Your .stk is backed up you are good to go

[Jamie Long]

I'm using the beta software as well.  It is some cool stuff, but I have a question.  When using the "auto tune" button the default number of "hits" to use when tuning is 5.  That seems like an awful low number to get good data.  I don't want to raise it so high that it makes it difficult to gather data, but I do want the data to be good.  Do you think I should use 10? 20?  30?   What do you think would be a good number to use?

We have been testing the Beta FW "as delivered" with no adjustments to the defaults or parameters to get a feel for how the end user will be using it and it has been working very well. The more hits the better for a given cell, and it does not take long to get gather data.

[hdmanillac]

Exact ! AT works perfectly. New map tuned within 3/4h. Min hit is low but many hits are rejected so only good hits are stored.



Just one remark about default parameters: Min MAP = 20kPa. So no VE for 10kPa column (decel). Why ? And what is the procedure to set this column ?

My bike as got poping at decel betwin 2000 and 1500rpm. What can I do about VE ? I have already apply 75% on DE table to enrich a little bit. Still some poping.

[Jamie Long]

Exact ! AT works perfectly. New map tuned within 3/4h. Min hit is low but many hits are rejected so only good hits are stored.



Just one remark about default parameters: Min MAP = 20kPa. So no VE for 10kPa column (decel). Why ? And what is the procedure to set this column ?

My bike as got poping at decel betwin 2000 and 1500rpm. What can I do about VE ? I have already apply 75% on DE table to enrich a little bit. Still some poping.

Thank you for the feedback, great to hear the PV worked well for you. There are different characteristics and requirements in the 10Kpa of the calibration compared to normal closed loop operation, I recommend if needed making adjustments to this column manually if necessary. Decel popping can happen from several factors, most common are lean or rich mixtures and exhaust leaks, and exhaust design itself plays a huge part as well. If a bike has decel popping we normally start by setting the Lambda/AF table to open loop in this region, you can experiment with these values to see which works best. As you noted you can also change the Decel Enleanment table which works especially well if you get a quick pop when rolling off the throttle. You may also need to adjust VE in this column. You simply need to find the best balance between these tables that works best for your setup.

[Ken R]

This thing is cool beans. 
I went out on a 30 minute tuning run (even though the temperature outside is over 100 degrees right now).  The Autotune is very intuitive.  I read the beta documentation first, and then went down to the shop and followed the instructions on the PV screen.  Pre-reading the documentation helped, but not absolutely necessary, the on-screen instructions would have sufficed.

Watched the little cells fill at first, then there became too many to watch.  So then I started looking for areas/regimes to fill.  Got many dozens of hits in the normal riding areas.  Also got dozens at high RPM with lower MAP values.  I don't like riding my brakes to get cells filled and we don't have any hills around here. 

I changed my settings to require 15 hits . . . 5 just didn't seem like enough.  Probably should have also changed the Min RPM to 900 and Min Map to 10, as well; just to see if I could fill some of those cells.

Remember, my running file for tuning is my cell-by-cell hand-copied dyno tune from last year.   Only changes to the motorcycle since dyno are my home made lathe-turned open end caps for my SuperTraps.  All else has remained constant.  So I was expecting some differences in VEs. 

The results?
For the front cylinder, at least 30 of the VE cells that contained data required NO CHANGE AT ALL!  The vast majority of those that did require changes needed from -.8 to +3.8 units with a three cells calling for -6.5, -7.5, and -9.7.   All in all very close, I thought.

For the rear cylinder, almost all the cell differences were from 4.0 units to 12.0 units, all clustered in the 1,500 to 3,500 with MAPs from 35 to 60.  I found that odd, but I'm going with it.  I flashed the ECU with the new tune.

I need to read up to make sure that my lambda table, PE mode, etc. all went back to my pre-programmed values.

I'll do another tuning run for the 25 miles to motorcycle practice this evening, and yet another for the ride home.  I'm expecting to see that the suggested VE changes reduce towards zero with subsequent tuning runs. 

OH, I used .574 gallons of gas for this tuning run.   

[Jamie Long]

This thing is cool beans. 
I went out on a 30 minute tuning run (even though the temperature outside is over 100 degrees right now).  The Autotune is very intuitive.  I read the beta documentation first, and then went down to the shop and followed the instructions on the PV screen.  Pre-reading the documentation helped, but not absolutely necessary, the on-screen instructions would have sufficed.

Watched the little cells fill at first, then there became too many to watch.  So then I started looking for areas/regimes to fill.  Got many dozens of hits in the normal riding areas.  Also got dozens at high RPM with lower MAP values.  I don't like riding my brakes to get cells filled and we don't have any hills around here. 

I changed my settings to require 15 hits . . . 5 just didn't seem like enough.  Probably should have also changed the Min RPM to 900 and Min Map to 10, as well; just to see if I could fill some of those cells.

Remember, my running file for tuning is my cell-by-cell hand-copied dyno tune from last year.   Only changes to the motorcycle since dyno are my home made lathe-turned open end caps for my SuperTraps.  All else has remained constant.  So I was expecting some differences in VEs. 

The results?
For the front cylinder, at least 30 of the VE cells that contained data required NO CHANGE AT ALL!  The vast majority of those that did require changes needed from -.8 to +3.8 units with a three cells calling for -6.5, -7.5, and -9.7.   All in all very close, I thought.

For the rear cylinder, almost all the cell differences were from 4.0 units to 12.0 units, all clustered in the 1,500 to 3,500 with MAPs from 35 to 60.  I found that odd, but I'm going with it.  I flashed the ECU with the new tune.

I need to read up to make sure that my lambda table, PE mode, etc. all went back to my pre-programmed values.

I'll do another tuning run for the 25 miles to motorcycle practice this evening, and yet another for the ride home.  I'm expecting to see that the suggested VE changes reduce towards zero with subsequent tuning runs. 

OH, I used .574 gallons of gas for this tuning run.   

Pretty cool isnt it?, glad to hear PV is working well for you. Thank you for the great write up and support.

[Ken R]

Jamie, I haven't found it yet, but is there a way to save the histogram and save it on my computer for future reference (short of taking a picture of it while on the motorcycle and saving the jpeg?).