1988 Sporty Knock/Ping (videos inside)

[88sporty]

So this problem has been plaguing me recently and I was recommended this site so here it is. I've got a 1988 sporty 883 with the 1200 kit done by the previous owner. I was riding from DE to VA and noticed a helacious noise coming from what I believe to be my front jug, here is the video I took of it when it was in full swing:

knock

Now here is the breakdown of what happens. When the bike starts cold it sounds like every other Evo out there, kind of chattery but no noticeable knocks or pings, starts on the first try, idles just fine. Once you start to ride it and it warms up (usually takes about 15-20 minutes) his knock/ping comes out. It starts off slowly, only audible at idle. In the beginning it will hit two or three times (like ping-ping-ping) in succesion, sometimes like ping-ping----------ping (spaced out a bit). Then after a few more minutes of doing that it will become audible when I at higher rpms, and then disappear when I shift. By the end of the ride when the bike is fully warm it will become a constant noise. Here is a video of the tail end of a 30 minute ride from the other night:

knock2

So to premptively answer some questions: I recently (two months ago) changed the oil to Amsoil 20w50. I have no idea what it was running previously, but I can tell you that after changing the oil the bike ran completely different, I even had to readjust the idle because it was idling much higher after the change, maybe I should go to a heavier weight oil? Or possibly switch to some conventional? I have no clue what the mileage on this bike, it hasn't been recorded in years and has no odometer. That's about all I can think f right now, ask away and I'll answer to the best of my abilities. Similarly, is there anyone in Hampton Roads, VA who might want to give me a hand with this? I am military and am currently living on base with no place to really tear the enging apart, I am planning on taking the top of the rocker box off today to see what I can see but if I have to go further I might be SOL. Thanks in advance for anyone who can shed some light on this!

John

[Panzer]

John,
Have you checked for exhaust manifold leaks, both front and back?
Even check along all the piping connections?
Yes I heard the ticking/popping.
I'm just saying that this is a start point.
As more read your post and listen, more will chime in.
Hold tight on the teardown.
Help is on the way.

[88sporty]

Haven't checked that yet, would that cause this problem? Thanks for the help.

[kik]

Well not saying it's what  is but my old 77 ironhead sounded the same way just before it dropped a valve..I opened it up and found the pistons had worn grooves in the cyl walls so I just did a complete top end. Like I said not saying that's it but it does sound Valve related to me.

[88sporty]

Well not saying it's what  is but my old 77 ironhead sounded the same way just before it dropped a valve..I opened it up and found the pistons had worn grooves in the cyl walls so I just did a complete top end. Like I said not saying that's it but it does sound Valve related to me.

That is among the things I suspect to be the culprit, would it be intermittent like mine is? If so, any idea what would cause that?

[kik]

Well not saying it's what  is but my old 77 ironhead sounded the same way just before it dropped a valve..I opened it up and found the pistons had worn grooves in the cyl walls so I just did a complete top end. Like I said not saying that's it but it does sound Valve related to me.

That is among the things I suspect to be the culprit, would it be intermittent like mine is? If so, any idea what would cause that?

Yeah mine was intermittent ... What had actually happened was the valve keeper had come loose so the valve was sliding in and out most of the time it would stay up but every once in awhile it would drop  and it would hit the pis(Hence the Ping) I road it about 300 miles like that before it busted loose completely. Got stranded about 100 miles from home.

[mayor]

I agree with these guys.  Your problem difinately sounds mechanical.  Have you pull the plugs to see what they look like?  Sometimes the plugs will show whether or not you have valve issuse. 

Have you checked for exhaust manifold leaks, both front and back?
Even check along all the piping connections?
Yes I heard the ticking/popping.

Haven't checked that yet, would that cause this problem? Thanks for the help.

start with something simple.  Check to make sure that the exhaust flange nuts are tight.  Do not over tighten, these studs will break easy. I don't have the tq specs for your bike, but I think you would be ok to check an initial at 80 inch/lbs, then tighten to 100 inch/lbs. Note- this is inch/lbs, not foot/lbs.  If you don't have one already, I would suggest picking up a long 1/4" drive wobble extension (home depot carries these).  I've found that a 1/4" drive with a wobble extension is the easiest way to tighten exhaust flange nuts.  Be careful that you don't but side load on these stubs, they can break.   You will need a 1/2" socket for the nuts, so you may have to pick one of these up since most 1/4" drive sets only go to 7/16" (Sears carries a 1/2" socket in 1/4" drive). 

If you exhaust flange nuts are tight, then you may want to pull the pipes to see if the ports show any signs of exhaust leak or the e-valves show any sign of problems. 


btw, welcome to the forum John! 

[Dan89flstc]

You have 20w50 oil in the engine, so you are fine as far as oil type goes. Don`t get distracted from the real problem by worrying about what type oil you are using...

From the sound on the video, It sounds like valvetrain clatter, most likely a bad lifter, or low oil pressure. If you keep running the engine, you may cause some real damage, so it needs to be addressed immediately.

Does the engine have adjustable pushrods?  A pushrod adjusted incorrectly so that the lifter is near the top of its travel could be the culprit...

Hopefully someone in your area will have a space on their garage lift to help you out.

Don`t run the engine any more, it will not help with diagnosis, but it may cause damage.

[88sporty]

Alright took the rocker box off what am I looking for in here?

[mayor]

did you check for an exhaust leak first?

did you pull the plugs and look at them?

if you have a jack, raise the bike so the rear wheel will spin, then rotate the wheel with the bike in 4th gear until your rockers are applying the least pressure on your valves (you are looking for the flats of the cams), then check to make sure that your rocker bolts are not loose.  If all is tight there, you will likely have to dig deeper.  This may be an issue if you don't have a garage, since you don't want any weather to get into your engine. 

[Billy]

Definitly check the exhaust first. Sounds more like valvetrain noise.

I'm in Va. Beach but won't be available 'till Monday. I'll send you a PM with cell number if you need it.

Billy

[88sporty]

Alright so I checked the exhaust as well, all was tight with no apparent issues. The spark plugs didn't look great, the front was a bit redder than the rear and the rear has a bit of build up on it. I just took the top of the box off and this is what I found after messing around for a bit:

rocker

I'm guessing this might be my problem. What do you guys think? Bad rocker bearing? Sorry for being so new to all of this.

[Billy]

I think your lifter may be giving up, rocker shouldn't move laterally that easily. End play shouldn't be more than about .013-.015, check with feeler gauge.

[Dan89flstc]

I don`t think it has anything to do with the axial movement of the rocker shaft. It sounds like excessive valve lash.

[slypig]

Most miitary bases have an auto hobby shop that u should be able to use.

[88sporty]

OK so we are basically talking about a complete disassembly here, correct? Well this is going to be fun, haha. Anyone have any good write-ups or anything that I could refer to when doing this? And Billy, I think I may just need your help, haha.

[Billy]

If it's just a lifter, it's not a big job.

[88sporty]

Ok so how do I check if it is a lifter? I'm assuming I have to go deeper than I am right now. What are the steps other than just starting to unbolt things? Anything I need to be specifically wary of?

[Dan89flstc]

Before you get any deeper, you really should have a service manual, to keep you from getting into trouble during re assembly.

Here`s a rough rundown of what you will be doing:

Remove spark plugs, so that it is easy to rotate engine. You might want to support the bike with the rear wheel off the ground, turning the back wheel is the easiest way to rotate the engine

Rotate engine until both cams of the cylinder you are working on are at the low point, you can watch the rockers while rotating the engine to see when they are at the low point.

Remove top and center rocker box details.

Remove the bolts holding the lower rocker supports evenly and slowly.

Remove rocker shafts.

Remove rocker arms.

Remove lower rocker box.

Lift out the pushrods, remove pushrod covers.

Remove bolt holding lifter block, and remove lifter block. You might want to put a magnet on the lifter as you lift the block out, to keep the lifter from dropping in.

Keep track of the hardware as you remove it, there are different length bolts. Zip loc bags and a sharpie are your friends...

It is important to follow the service manual when re assembling the valve train parts, if you get out of sequence you could wind up with a bent valve.

[88sporty]

I will undoubtedly be getting a service manual. Thanks for the help, hopefully I'll be able to find somewhere to work on her so I'm not tearing the engine completely apart in a parking lot, haha. Just to have an estimate, what do you think it would cost to have a shop do this? Or let's say it is a bad lifter, how much are the parts to replace it and where's a good place can they be purchased?

[Dan89flstc]

Forgot something,

Thank you for your service.

[andyxlh]

Hello mate,
I'd agree that it is most likely a bad lifter. they either fail to pump up and/or the bearing on the bottom of them goes bad. This causes the intermittent chattering you mention, which just gets worse and starts breaking things. All will become apparent when you get it apart. as already has been detailed, you don't need to do a full engine tear down, just remove the rockerbox and pushrod assemblies then the pushrod tubes and lifter blocks. gently easing off the lower box is very important - there are a few small bolts to remove first then 4 big bolts to remove, and do the big ones a little at a time.
You really must replace all 4 lifters - they are not that expensive, about $60 each here in Australia, probably less where u are.
I'd allow about 1/2 day to do this job if you have not done it before and you have a reasonable tool selection. Torque settings, as already has been mentioned, are important, and the lifter blocks which you will remove from the cases sometimes need a smear of gasket goo as well as the o rings to stop them leaking.
Check the pushrods are straight by rolling them on glass - I use the plates of glass in the coffee table when my wife is out. she isn't reading this is she? a bent pushrod could cause this rattling, but if the mileage is unknown a new set of lifters is a great idea anyway.
Check the lifter blocks for scoring and wear - if the lifter is not a good fit in the bore the oil might not be forced through it and perhaps it won't pump up, but that would have to be an obvious bit of damage. your sporty engine is unique in that if that happens they can be replaced. I have over 100000mi on my blocks and they are still OK.
to really identify it before teardown i have found it useful to listen down the shaft of a screwdriver, this will show up which lifter is clattering the most.
When you put the rockers back in, swap the rocker pins inlet for exhaust. this will reverse the wear side, and might tighten them up a bit.
As has been suggested, continuing to run the engine is not a great idea.
your bike runs the same lifters as the evo big twins, they are not the same as the 5-speed sportsters

Andy

BTW in '03 i swapped to Amsol, which I'm sure is a great product, went for a long ride across country on my 50,000 mi '89 xlh and blew the crank pin out. Probably just a coincidence but there u go.
At about 80,000 miles I had a lifter go and the roller at the bottom dropped pins all through the cams, ruining the oil pump and the cams. Horrid mess, luckily I took a chance and didn't rebuild the crank (it was done after the blow-up above!) but even so this was an expensive and time consuming exercise, so now I'm a bit more on the preventative maintenence......... older but perhaps a little wiser!

[88sporty]

Hey guys thanks for all of the help on this. I ordered some Ultima lifters, I hope they'll work OK, they seemed to get decent reviews and the price was right (all 4 for $103 shipped). I have the bike pretty much torn down but have kind of run into a bit of an issue. I took the top of the box apart with the help of a friend but can't seem to get the lifter blocks out. They look as though they are designed to be removed with the jug still intact but when you lift up on them they contact the fins of the jug and cannot be lifted out. I am assuming I'll have to pull the entire jug assembly off to get them out, after that is there anything you guys might replace in there just because? Thanks again for the help, and I will definitely take that advice on checking to see if the pushrods are bent.

[andyxlh]

Hello mate
DON'T lift them vertically - you need to rotate them 1/4 turn - I can't remember which way - and then lift them free. They can come out without removing the barrels - I have done it.
sorry but I don't have the workshop manual at hand at the moment, but it does detail the removal procedure. you will need to hook the lifters up into the blocks with a bit of thin wire in the holes at the top or a strong magnet and they come out with the blocks if I remember right.
check the rollers on the end of the old lifters carefully. If they have lost any of the rollers I consider pulling the cam case and oil pump to see where they have gone...
where did you get the lifters for that price?
cheers
Andy

[88sporty]

OK cool thanks a lot I'm hopefully gonna be finishing this up tonight if all goes well. And I bought the lifters from debrix cycles.

[JBarrettB]

My guess is that you have a failing roller on one of the tappets. Be sure and check the cam for damage too.

JB

[FLTRI]

Alright so I checked the exhaust as well, all was tight with no apparent issues...

How did you check for cracks in the exhaust pipes?

Wrapping exhaust pipes is great for keeping all the HP's in there but will make the pipes brittle after a while and will stress-crack.

Typically a crack is closed when the pipe is cool then opens up...more as the engine gets hotter.
Just a thought...
Bob

[Panzer]

Well 88, how did it go?
I'm sure I'm not the only one looking to see how you made out.
                                     

              450 views............we're waiting!!

[88sporty]

Alright sorry for the long time between updates, I really just haven't had much time to work on her. So, I tried to get the lifters out without removing the blocks, no go. I was probably doing something wrong but no big deal, I'm actually kind of glad I did it because it led me to finding out a few things that need fixing. First off, I had a pretty serious leak at the gasket between the head and cylinder on the rear jug so it was running noticeably hotter in there. Second was I noticed how small the bore and pistons looked, I had always been told that the piston on a 1200 shouldn't be able to fit in between the studs for the cylinder and low and behold they did. Measured them out to 3", so it would appear I got straight had by the PO telling me it had a 1200 kit. Not all bad considering the crosshatch on my 883 jugs was looking pretty worn so a 1250 kit it is. I think I'm going with NRHS, unless there is someone else out there with better quality and a good price point, what do you guys think?

Next I was finally able to get the lifter blocks off and get those old lifters out of there. I swear everything in this engine, gaskets included, was OEM so it really is a good thing I pulled it all apart. Unfortunately Debrix cycles sent me the incorrect lifters so I was not able to install those, but I took a look at my cams and all looked well, no uneven wear on any of them, nothing appeared to be chipped or broken. I then looked over the bottom of my pushrods and noticed some uneven wear on the rear jug exhaust pushrod, so I think the lifter diagnosis is correct, at the very least. While all of the others looked nice and smooth and shiny this one was slightly scratched up and nicked all around the center hole. So once Debrix makes good on this lifter exchange and I get my kit from NHRS I should be golden. I've got a buddy of mine sand blasting the heads so I can repaint the faded cracked paint job that was on them and I also finally had the space to fix an oil leak that has been plaguing me. So all in all it was kind of a good thing I tore her apart, looks like I'll be getting a decent amount more power out of her with the 1250 kit and I'll be able to put some nice gaskets in there to stop the leak to the rear jug that was probably robbing me of some power.

Now someone above me asked about an exhaust leak. It turns out I was wrong about that too. I guess I somehow missed that one of the flange bolts on the forward head was backed off pretty good but it was just such a tight space I must have mistook it for being properly tight. I noticed this when I took the exhaust off of the head to give them to my buddy for sand blasting. I've got some new hardware for mounting it that should make it a fair bit easier to torque down instead of the rusted crap that was holding it in place. Now I haven't taken the heat wrap off to check for actual cracks to the pipes themselves, should I? The wrap looks like garbage anyway but having it kind of frayed actually goes with the flow of the bike, sad as that sounds, haha. I guess I'll take it off and rewrap them so I can check for leaks, you said that the cracks show up when warm, but wouldn't it be the opposite? I'd figure they'd be more prevalent when cold because the metal contracts thus exposing more of the crack, either way, if I can't see any cracks when they're cold I thrown them on and get the bike to operating temp and check again just to be sure.

Honestly thanks for all of the help here guys, without the stuff you've posted up this would have been a horse of another color and I'd without a doubt be in over my head.

[PC_Hater]

NRHS know what they are doing.
Do what they say and all will be well.

[88sporty]

Thanks for the tip, I don't think I've heard a bad thing about them yet so I'll be OK with the slight markup over a lot of the other kits.