""""I don't need a TORQUE wrench, my hand is a TORQUE wrench"""""

[gabbyduffy]

                       Before I heard these words come out of my mechanics mouth "My hand is a Torque wrench"............ I had him replace my head gaskits to gain some compression... Now 2 seasons later I have a oil leak at the base of my cylinders.... My guess is he did not use a torque wrench.
                       Whats the easiest way to fix the leak?.....I'm thinking I should just tighten the head bolts and put a torque wrench on it. I should'nt have to replace the gasket at the base of the cylinder....... Whats your opinion on fixing the the leak?

[1FSTRK]

What are the motor spec? Do you have base gaskets or orings?

[Admiral Akbar]

And if it is O rings.. Torque ain't the problem.. You'd blow a headgasket first.. Max

[05FLHTC]

I doubt very much that after a leak develops that you will be able to stop it without replacing the gaskets, you try it, but if it were me I would pull it down & do it correctly with new gaskets and a clean sealing surface.

[05FLHTC]

sorry for the double post 

[05FLHTC]

 

[VANAMAL]

I wouldnt call myself a mechanic but i use a torque wrench on everything but the air cleaner

[gabbyduffy]

And if it is O rings.. Torque ain't the problem.. You'd blow a headgasket first.. Max

2010 RG..... is that a "o" ring or gasket?.................its a 103" that started out as a 96"...........If I pull the cylinders should I replace the rings and get a hone job?

[barny7655]

I think he should of reworded it as i use my eyes as a torque wrench,ive been in a game a few yrs now and all you need is a good eye as to what wrench to use on what bolt or nut , 1/4 drive or 3/8 drive or 1/2 drive sockets ,then to what bolt or nut is used and what surface you are tightening,type of metal,your tools guide you to the pressure thats exerted to your hands and arms as to torque feel,when do i use a torque wrench,or degree wrench,in critical areas where leakage may occur due to heat or stretch,where bolts are to be degreed,or when my brain tells me ,or when common sense and saftey says so , cheers Barny

[prodrag1320]

dont think weather its a Oring or just a blown headgasket is the point,but more finding a new mechanic.ANYONE who dosnt use a totque wrench when doing evo or TC heads isnt competent to be repairing other riders bikes(or their own for that matter)

[Johnnykool6]

You do it enough times... you DON'T need a torque wrench!  Key word: "enough"  which is a lot, however, you do anything enough times, you get dang good at it! I build more automotive than Harley, but messing around in the garage, with buds (as in buddies), I've passed the "test"! So I BELIEVE!!!  Still going to have to change those gaskets though!    Ps.  I also have a built in scale!!!   

[Ohio HD]

You do it enough times... you DON'T need a torque wrench!  Key word: "enough"  which is a lot, however, you do anything enough times, you get dang good at it! I build more automotive than Harley, but messing around in the garage, with buds (as in buddies), I've passed the "test"! So I BELIEVE!!!      Ps.  I also have a built in scale!!!   

I'll put my Snap On torque wrenches up against your arm accuracy any day! And I'll win.   

[Johnnykool6]

I'm guessing you need a snap on!!

[Ohio HD]

I'm guessing you need a snap on!!

So do you!

[rbabos]

Slim to nil it's leaking at the base O ring. If the head gasket goes oil will migrate down the cyl studs or stud holes . Just so happens these are outside the o ring outer dia and no sealing there. It fools you into thinking the base gasket is leaking. Your will see the oil track to the stud hole when you pull the head.
Ron

[justplainjim]

Take it back to the "human torque wrench" and have him fix it..

[War Horse]

Gosh, after 40 years in the business I still use a torque wrench..... I must suck 

[CndUltra88]

There is a way to remove the cylinder and piston all at once and not disturb the piston and rings.
But , you need three hands and someone to hold your beer for you while doing it.
Of course I can not do it, but have seen it done.
Find another mechanic who is better versed in proper use of hand tools.
Most shops offer a 30 day warranty , but of course others will have a better idea  than I on that one.
Rob

[Hillside Motorcycle]

"I don't need no stinkin' torque wrench"........
I'm goning to place a call to our tool suppliers, to have them come and issue re-call tags on all the torque wrenches and multipliers we have here, and hire that guy..........................NOT.
Scott

[koko3052]

 

[Breeze]

People (notice I didn't say mechanics) that believe they don't need no calibrated tools, probably blame mechanical failures as "they all do that".

[gabbyduffy]

Slim to nil it's leaking at the base O ring. If the head gasket goes oil will migrate down the cyl studs or stud holes . Just so happens these are outside the o ring outer dia and no sealing there. It fools you into thinking the base gasket is leaking. Your will see the oil track to the stud hole when you pull the head.
Ron

Great info, Thanks........    I took another look after reading this post..... It very well may be coming from my front lifter block, I put a allen on it and one of the allen bolts was loose.
               Its amazing how oil can make its way from a lifter block, between the cylinders all the way to the other side of the bike to make it look like a cylinder base leak............. I wish I checked the lifter  block before pulling the rockers.......
               

[Dennis The Menace]

Gabby, if it were me, I would take it down and replace the o-rings.  And, torque everything to spec with a calibrated torque wrench.  Also, you can pull the wrist pin retainer and leave the piston in the jug....no need to pull the piston out.  You will get varying opinion here about new/reuse rings if you pull it out.

I am NOT a pro, so use a torque wrench all the time. Also, I am surprised when I get the click on tightening things up.  I expect to have to put more into it.  Good thing I use a torque wrench, or I would likely strip out a lot of things on my bike.  JME.

[rbabos]

Slim to nil it's leaking at the base O ring. If the head gasket goes oil will migrate down the cyl studs or stud holes . Just so happens these are outside the o ring outer dia and no sealing there. It fools you into thinking the base gasket is leaking. Your will see the oil track to the stud hole when you pull the head.
Ron

Great info, Thanks........    I took another look after reading this post..... It very well may be coming from my front lifter block, I put a allen on it and one of the allen bolts was loose.
               Its amazing how oil can make its way from a lifter block, between the cylinders all the way to the other side of the bike to make it look like a cylinder base leak............. I wish I checked the lifter  block before pulling the rockers.......
             

I hear ya. My 120 has base gaskets and I saw some, what appeared to be seapage at the base. Pissed me off because I lapped the cyls and decks to remove all possibility of this. First time I used those stupid cometic gaskets on the lifter blocks . Turns out it was weeping between the block and cyl, you know that thin area. Took about a month to show a problem. Lesson learned and will use OEM or James from now on.
Ron

[Super Dave]

That reminds me of one of my riding buddies. He said that my cruise control and GPS were broken. He could tell because his throttle hand speed and my speed were different.

[prodrag1320]

Gosh, after 40 years in the business I still use a torque wrench..... I must suck 

me too

[hrdtail78]

Your lifter covers have a torque also.  Was always told, tq specs were to make sure things didn't get over tighten.  Not tight enough doesn't seem to be a problem.  Not saying I always grab one for a derby cover, but headbolts..?

[gabbyduffy]

     I decided to turn a negative into a positive and drill out my oil return in the breather assembly.......it makes it all worth it... Quick question, does anybody use locktight on the rocker arm support bolts?.........the manual does not specify.... Thanks

[Ohio HD]

     I decided to turn a negative into a positive and drill out my oil return in the breather assembly.......it makes it all worth it... Quick question, does anybody use locktight on the rocker arm support bolts?.........the manual does not specify.... Thanks

I do not use loctite on those. Rocker covers, yes.

[gabbyduffy]

     I decided to turn a negative into a positive and drill out my oil return in the breather assembly.......it makes it all worth it... Quick question, does anybody use locktight on the rocker arm support bolts?.........the manual does not specify.... Thanks

I do not use loctite on those. Rocker covers, yes.

one would think if anything would need lock tight it would be a moving part like the rocker arm support bolt...... but what do I know I let some idiot that says " his hand is a torque wrench " work on my bike.

[No Cents]

     I decided to turn a negative into a positive and drill out my oil return in the breather assembly.......it makes it all worth it... Quick question, does anybody use locktight on the rocker arm support bolts?.........the manual does not specify.... Thanks

I do not use loctite on those. Rocker covers, yes.

I'm the opposite. I use blue loctite on the rocker arm supports...and none on the rocker box covers. I definately dont want a rocker arm support backing off.
No Cents

[rbabos]

Neither.
Ron

[harleytoprock]

No torque wrench here either......... I use pliers

[FSG]

I know guys that just use veins, when they start popping out the back of their neck it's tight enough.  A far better method than torque till it shears then back off half a turn.  LOL 

[gabbyduffy]

                  What are you guys using for a torque wrench to tighten the rocker box and breather assembly with the moter in the frame?..also how do you put a torque wrench on the inner allens on the lifter blocks??

[Ohio HD]

                  What are you guys using for a torque wrench to tighten the rocker box and breather assembly with the moter in the frame?..also how do you put a torque wrench on the inner allens on the lifter blocks??

For the rockers, a 3/8 drive right angle torque adapter, I bought it a long time ago off the Matco truck. For lifter blocks, Snap On 3/8 drive long allen bit with ball end.

[War Horse]

A word of caution about those ball ended allens, if the bolt heads arent in great condition these will strip them out in short order, due to the fact that the ball doesnt grab all that much meat.  Yes, Snap-on ones are the best, dont go cheap with these.

[rbabos]

I know guys that just use veins, when they start popping out the back of their neck it's tight enough.  A far better method than torque till it shears then back off half a turn.  LOL

Not worth a damn. Requires constant recalibrating , depending on blood pressure meds used.
Strip method only seems to work once.
Ron

[bigfoot5x]

Hey Gabby: Ask the mechanic what happened to his torque perfection on the lifter block bolts? Those are supposed to be torqued also so if one was loose he probably didn't have it torqued right.

[Ohio HD]

A word of caution about those ball ended allens, if the bolt heads arent in great condition these will strip them out in short order, due to the fact that the ball doesnt grab all that much meat.  Yes, Snap-on ones are the best, dont go cheap with these.

That's 100% correct, I also only use them on low torque fasteners.

[Joker65]

No torque wrench here either......... I use pliers

. . . . when I can't find my vice-grips!

[mariner227]

I'm decent on hitting ft lbs. I will install none critical things ( spark plugs ) with out a tq wrench. Inch lbs., I always use my 1/4 inch drive torque wrench. Never pulled the threads out yet and don't plan on it!

It's insane to not torque bolts with out a good tq wrench.

[gabbyduffy]

                       "Torque extentions"....... how do these work? if I use a torque extension "crows foot" and want the bolt to be torqued at 50ft pounds,.... do I set the Torque wrench at 50 ft pounds and turn the wrench untill it clicks?..... does it matter if the wrench is in a straight line with the extension or 90* with the extension?........... I want to learn how to use extensions to torque bolts that I can't normally reach with the wrench alone.................. thanks fellows.

[Ohio HD]

                       "Torque extentions"....... how do these work? if I use a torque extension "crows foot" and want the bolt to be torqued at 50ft pounds,.... do I set the Torque wrench at 50 ft pounds and turn the wrench untill it clicks?..... does it matter if the wrench is in a straight line with the extension or 90* with the extension?........... I want to learn how to use extensions to torque bolts that I can't normally reach with the wrench alone.................. thanks fellows.

Gabby, visit Mr. FSG right here.  http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,1215.0.html

Here too.

http://cncexpo.com/TorqueAdapter.aspx

Again from FSG.

[koko3052]

                       "Torque extentions"....... how do these work? if I use a torque extension "crows foot" and want the bolt to be torqued at 50ft pounds,.... do I set the Torque wrench at 50 ft pounds and turn the wrench untill it clicks?..... does it matter if the wrench is in a straight line with the extension or 90* with the extension?........... I want to learn how to use extensions to torque bolts that I can't normally reach with the wrench alone.................. thanks fellows.

Extension at 90 degrees to the torque wrench!

[sundog1258]

No torque wrench here either......... I use pliers

. . . . when I can't find my vice-grips!
Daddy used to say "bring me them bolt rounders" These guys were loggers and they had the piss poorest tools, wore the hell out junk you've ever seen. Somehow we kept that crap running.  Right before stripping out seemed about right, twist that head off and we had it too tight. I never even seen a torque wrench till we went to the Cat dealer. Bolt rounders, ha ha.

[wholehog]

                       "Torque extentions"....... how do these work? if I use a torque extension "crows foot" and want the bolt to be torqued at 50ft pounds,.... do I set the Torque wrench at 50 ft pounds and turn the wrench untill it clicks?..... does it matter if the wrench is in a straight line with the extension or 90* with the extension?........... I want to learn how to use extensions to torque bolts that I can't normally reach with the wrench alone.................. thanks fellows.

Gabby, visit Mr. FSG right here.  http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,1215.0.html

Here too.

http://cncexpo.com/TorqueAdapter.aspx

Again from FSG.

what about a ball end (wobble) or a universal?  I've never seen a torque calculator for those

[Admiral Akbar]

Ideally a wobbles end or universal transfers torque without gain or loss..  On a either theer can be an an issue if the angle is high enough to allow binding of the joint but as long as they are kept reasonably strait it's not and issue.. I once got into an argument with another mechanic that simple long extension would change TQ.. It don't..

Max

[koko3052]

Ideally a wobbles end or universal transfers torque without gain or loss..  On a either theer can be an an issue if the angle is high enough to allow binding of the joint but as long as they are kept reasonably strait it's not and issue.. I once got into an argument with another mechanic that simple long extension would change TQ.. It don't..

Max

 
Sky's the limit as long as you keep it straight

[Breeze]

Ideally a wobbles end or universal transfers torque without gain or loss..  On a either theer can be an an issue if the angle is high enough to allow binding of the joint but as long as they are kept reasonably strait it's not and issue.. I once got into an argument with another mechanic that simple long extension would change TQ.. It don't..

Max

 
Sky's the limit as long as you keep it straight

I understand short extensions, and low torque values have no effect. But doesn't torsional (?) twist have an effect as the extension length and torque values increase?

[Ohio HD]

Ideally a wobbles end or universal transfers torque without gain or loss..  On a either theer can be an an issue if the angle is high enough to allow binding of the joint but as long as they are kept reasonably strait it's not and issue.. I once got into an argument with another mechanic that simple long extension would change TQ.. It don't..

Max

 
Sky's the limit as long as you keep it straight

I understand short extensions, and low torque values have no effect. But doesn't torsional (?) twist have an effect as the extension length and torque values increase?

I bet it takes a lot more torque to twist a "good" quality extension than you would ever need to use on the appropriate drive torque wrench. I've never twisted an extension, broke sockets and ratchets. But I truthfully only use good hand tools. My SAE tools are all Snap On, the Metric mix is mostly S&K and Craftsman. But 90% of all my extensions are Snap On, 1/4 through 3/4 drive.

[koko3052]

Ideally a wobbles end or universal transfers torque without gain or loss..  On a either theer can be an an issue if the angle is high enough to allow binding of the joint but as long as they are kept reasonably strait it's not and issue.. I once got into an argument with another mechanic that simple long extension would change TQ.. It don't..

Max

 
Sky's the limit as long as you keep it straight

I understand short extensions, and low torque values have no effect. But doesn't torsional (?) twist have an effect as the extension length and torque values increase?

We're talking harleys here. No torque values that high & the higher ones you can get at real close.
Yes, theorectally, the longer the extension the more torsional you will have.   

[Admiral Akbar]

I understand short extensions, and low torque values have no effect. But doesn't torsional (?) twist have an effect as the extension length and torque values increase?

It don't make any difference whether the extension twists or not. The tq at one end is still equal to the other.. It just might take a little more twist to get there but whats on the dial is whats on the bolt..

I bet it takes a lot more torque to twist a "good" quality extension than you would ever need to use on the appropriate drive torque wrench. I've never twisted an extension, broke sockets and ratchets. But I truthfully only use good hand tools. My SAE tools are all Snap On, the Metric mix is mostly S&K and Craftsman. But 90% of all my extensions are Snap On, 1/4 through 3/4 drive.

I've broken a number of breaker-bars in the past. Split a few sockets.. Not sure what a snap-on extension gets you.. Most of my extensions are Pittsburgh HF black oxide but I probably have 1 or 2 of most  other major brands and one Industro  .. I've broken a few ratchets. Most were the 3/8 drive snap on with a 1/4 body.. My 45 year old 3/8 New Britain ratchet finally died.. It started to slip..    Haven't broken an extension yet..

Max

[Ohio HD]

I understand short extensions, and low torque values have no effect. But doesn't torsional (?) twist have an effect as the extension length and torque values increase?

It don't make any difference whether the extension twists or not. The tq at one end is still equal to the other.. It just might take a little more twist to get there but whats on the dial is whats on the bolt..

I bet it takes a lot more torque to twist a "good" quality extension than you would ever need to use on the appropriate drive torque wrench. I've never twisted an extension, broke sockets and ratchets. But I truthfully only use good hand tools. My SAE tools are all Snap On, the Metric mix is mostly S&K and Craftsman. But 90% of all my extensions are Snap On, 1/4 through 3/4 drive.

I've broken a number of breaker-bars in the past. Split a few sockets.. Not sure what a snap-on extension gets you.. Most of my extensions are Pittsburgh HF black oxide but I probably have 1 or 2 of most  other major brands and one Industro  .. I've broken a few ratchets. Most were the 3/8 drive snap on with a 1/4 body.. My 45 year old 3/8 New Britain ratchet finally died.. It started to slip..    Haven't broken an extension yet..

Max

My first complete tool set was New Britain, they were good tools. Weren't they also called Bonnie? Most eventually got lost, broken, borrowed, etc. That was a long, long time ago. I have a handful of the sockets left in the misc. tool drawer.

[Breeze]

It don't make any difference whether the extension twists or not. The tq at one end is still equal to the other.. It just might take a little more twist to get there but whats on the dial is whats on the bolt..






That makes sense to me.    I had never thought it through, I just accepted what I thought was a fact.

[RKTOM]

I have a  tendency to over tighten everything or maybe I'm just too strong but in any event USE A TORGUE WRENCH!!

[Bill in OKC]

Is there some kind of sanity check to make sure your torque wrench is reasonably accurate before using it?  Anyone have any tricks/suggestions?  Thanks.

[War Horse]

Is there some kind of sanity check to make sure your torque wrench is reasonably accurate before using it?  Anyone have any tricks/suggestions?  Thanks.

Normally you would send them out to a calibration lab, I might get some chit for this but, if you bench mount a good beam style torque wrench and use an adaptor to the clicker style, using mid scale to verify calibration, will get you within + or -, 2%to 3% accuracy. Remember to mount the beam one by the handle (where you hold it).

This is by no means the same as having a company lab do it tho and is not a recalibration but a check of where the setting is taking you. Also remember that the most inaccuracies are at the high and low ends of the range on the clicker styles.

[wfolarry]

Is there some kind of sanity check to make sure your torque wrench is reasonably accurate before using it?  Anyone have any tricks/suggestions?  Thanks.

Normally you would send them out to a calibration lab, I might get some chit for this but, if you bench mount a good beam style torque wrench and use an adaptor to the clicker style, using mid scale to verify calibration, will get you within + or -, 2%to 3% accuracy. Remember to mount the beam one by the handle (where you hold it).
This is by no means the same as having a company lab do it tho and is not a recalibration but a check of where the setting is taking you. Also remember that the most inaccuracies are at the high and low ends of the range on the clicker styles.


That's how I check my clickers to make sure they're right.

[FLTRI]

My dad said to tighten 2 turns past strip then back off 1.
Bob

[Bill in OKC]

Thank you War Horse and wfolarry.  I will do this tonight.

[Scooterfish]

  with wfolarry & war horse on the "home test. I have also used sockets & adaptors to mate two clickers together for testing. Set at mid range & with equall force in each hand they should click at same time.