wiz clutch

[Mr. Wizard]

The CW fulcrum doesn't upset the spring load by 2/3's. It's been measured to be 12% loss at the pressure plate via bench study using hydraulic pressure and digital readout in #'s up to 100th of an oz. The movement of the fulcrum changes the dynamics of spring resistance to the clutch lever by up to 40%.

If the CW reduced the spring pressure by 66% then the Dyna, Softail and Trike models could not use the CW with a stock spring yet there are hundreds of them (CW's) installed with stock springs. Use your physics to answer your question in reverse... "as loss of clutch pull" instead of spring down force.

[Durwood]

The CW fulcrum doesn't upset the spring load by 2/3's. It's been measured to be 12% loss at the pressure plate via bench study using hydraulic pressure and digital readout in #'s up to 100th of an oz. The movement of the fulcrum changes the dynamics of spring resistance to the clutch lever by up to 40%.

If the CW reduced the spring pressure by 66% then the Dyna, Softail and Trike models could not use the CW with a stock spring yet there are hundreds of them (CW's) installed with stock springs. Use your physics to answer your question in reverse... "as loss of clutch pull" instead of spring down force.

That's what I thought,  that would make the 480lb spring have 422.4 lb of stack pressure, which should be more than enough to hold 120ft lbs, I soon will find out when I put mine on the dyno...
Seat of pants, I feel NO slippage...  I like your idea

[Admiral Akbar]

The CW fulcrum doesn't upset the spring load by 2/3's. It's been measured to be 12% loss at the pressure plate via bench study using hydraulic pressure and digital readout in #'s up to 100th of an oz. The movement of the fulcrum changes the dynamics of spring resistance to the clutch lever by up to 40%.

If the CW reduced the spring pressure by 66% then the Dyna, Softail and Trike models could not use the CW with a stock spring yet there are hundreds of them (CW's) installed with stock springs. Use your physics to answer your question in reverse... "as loss of clutch pull" instead of spring down force.

That's what I thought,  that would make the 480lb spring have 422.4 lb of stack pressure, which should be more than enough to hold 120ft lbs, I soon will find out when I put mine on the dyno...
Seat of pants, I feel NO slippage...  I like your idea

There is no way that the Wiz can reduce the clutch pull by 40% and the pressure on the plate is decrease by only 12%.. What happens to Newtons 3rd law?   All the clutch acuation mechanism does is create a force that lifts the pressure plate off the clutch pack.. The force it has to move against is provided by the diaphragm spring..  If you reduce the pressure by 12%, you will reduce the pull at the clutch lever by 12%.. Newton figured this out over 300 years ago..

Dyna, Softail and Trike models could not use the CW

I guess they drank the     Bet they can't tell the difference..

I'd like to ride one.. Bet they slip.. Can they wheelie the trike?

I've owned 4 trikes and they were all scary to ride.. No problems with clutch actuation tho.. You used your foot..

Max

[Admiral Akbar]

The CW fulcrum doesn't upset the spring load by 2/3's. It's been measured to be 12% loss at the pressure plate via bench study using hydraulic pressure and digital readout in #'s up to 100th of an oz. The movement of the fulcrum changes the dynamics of spring resistance to the clutch lever by up to 40%.

BTW.. Someone screwed up here... They need to remeasure... When the numbers don't match the analysis, there is something wrong.. Sound like you changed the mechanical advantage on the lever the same time you changed the clutch bizz..

Max

[msocko3]

I'd like to ride one.. Bet they slip.. Can they wheelie the trike?

I've owned 4 trikes and they were all scary to ride.. No problems with clutch actuation tho.. You used your foot..

Max

Mine never slipped, I run the CW on the 2010 Triglide I used to have. I could make the old fat girl stand right up with no problem, had the wife beating me on the shoulders one day when I did it and she didn't expect it to happen. I'm running the CW in my 06 Ultra (not triked) running a Head Quarters 120. I'm using a SE extra plate with the AIM pressure plate the 480 spring and the CW. I can make that one stand up without a problem, I haven't been able to detect any slip, lord knows I've tried.

[Mr. Wizard]

Newton's laws are those of motion. His third law "for every action there must be and equal and opposite reaction" has to do with 1:1 ratios of the same force. There is also lever placement which changes the equal force needed to prove Newton's third law. There is such a thing called resistance which is not assumed in Newton's law. Newton's laws are fine for motion or pistons going up and down but we are discussing levers or fulcrums.

It was Archimedes who said "give me a place to stand and I'll move the earth". He was talking about lever actions and moving the fulcrum of a lever to increase or decrease the force used to move an object. "The ratio of the weight moved to the weight moving it is the inverse ratio of the distances from the center" is Archimedes Lever Law which is applicable here.

Using Archimedes Lever Law you can change the clutch pull resistance. Harley used this at four points on a cable clutch bike.

1. The pivot point on the clutch lever. Move this pivot point and you can increase/decrease the resistance used to pull the lever in.
2. The length of the clutch lever. Increase this length and you decrease the ratio of the resistance used to pull the lever in.
3. The ramp located at the end of the clutch cable is not a 1:1 ratio. It uses a fulcrum point to make the clutch spring less resistive for the clutch lever to pull.
4. The retainer ring fulcrum placement. Move this fulcrum into the resistive circle and you reduce the down force necessary to disengage the clutch pack. The clutch spring has a steady state of down force we measure in pounds.

Four reasons how/why you can reduce the clutch lever resistance to the actual resistance of the clutch spring. If this lever was an actual 1:1 then you would have to use 480 pounds of force to over come the 480 pounds of resistance. That's Newton's Third Law.

So the end result is you use Archimedes Lever Law to over come Newton's Third law.

As for you wanting to play with one. That would be great. Unfortunately I don't make them or sell them. I actually don't sell anything at all that has to do with the Harley nation or Kraft. Since you don't live in the US it would be difficult for me to send you an old demo I have but I do believe the manufacturer/seller of the CW's has shipped many internationally. I'm sure he would be more than willing to sell you one.

[HD/Wrench]

Max I have one here,.... slipped on a  09 SG 103 54 fat cat build. 95 hp and 103 tq stock pack SE spring  .. We where told it needed a +1 pack and 480 spring. for that set up . Customer was not inclined to spend that money on top of the CW when he could buy a bandit and be done with it.. Be happy to let you play with it. I can say the lever pull was very smooth and for a non aggressive rider it would have worked out very well .   Max let me know , call me at the shop

[sprinkman]

Been following the thread I have not posted since early on. Not an authority on Newton's law or Archimedes but I did install the clutch wiz along with Barnett +1 clutch plates and a 480 spring in my tri-glide. We went west last year pulling a trailer had no problems with slippage and a had much easier lever pull. I am happy with it just my 2 cents.

[Admiral Akbar]

Newton's laws are those of motion. His third law "for every action there must be and equal and opposite reaction" has to do with 1:1 ratios of the same force. There is also lever placement which changes the equal force needed to prove Newton's third law. There is such a thing called resistance which is not assumed in Newton's law. Newton's laws are fine for motion or pistons going up and down but we are discussing levers or fulcrums.

It was Archimedes who said "give me a place to stand and I'll move the earth". He was talking about lever actions and moving the fulcrum of a lever to increase or decrease the force used to move an object. "The ratio of the weight moved to the weight moving it is the inverse ratio of the distances from the center" is Archimedes Lever Law which is applicable here.

Using Archimedes Lever Law you can change the clutch pull resistance. Harley used this at four points on a cable clutch bike.

1. The pivot point on the clutch lever. Move this pivot point and you can increase/decrease the resistance used to pull the lever in.
2. The length of the clutch lever. Increase this length and you decrease the ratio of the resistance used to pull the lever in.
3. The ramp located at the end of the clutch cable is not a 1:1 ratio. It uses a fulcrum point to make the clutch spring less resistive for the clutch lever to pull.
4. The retainer ring fulcrum placement. Move this fulcrum into the resistive circle and you reduce the down force necessary to disengage the clutch pack. The clutch spring has a steady state of down force we measure in pounds.

Four reasons how/why you can reduce the clutch lever resistance to the actual resistance of the clutch spring. If this lever was an actual 1:1 then you would have to use 480 pounds of force to over come the 480 pounds of resistance. That's Newton's Third Law.

So the end result is you use Archimedes Lever Law to over come Newton's Third law.

As for you wanting to play with one. That would be great. Unfortunately I don't make them or sell them. I actually don't sell anything at all that has to do with the Harley nation or Kraft. Since you don't live in the US it would be difficult for me to send you an old demo I have but I do believe the manufacturer/seller of the CW's has shipped many internationally. I'm sure he would be more than willing to sell you one.

Most of what you say is correct..  Number 4 is the issue... But moving the fulcrum point closer to center you are reducing pressure on the pressure plate which reduces pull at the lever.. None of the other levers have changed..

You don't over come Newtons 3rd law.. If you did it wouldn't be a law..    The CW changes the force on the pressure plate, less pressure from the push rod is needed to overcome the pressure at the plate..

The problem with clutch wiz is that is that it works as a lever on the pressure plate side reducing plate pressure.. Other levers, Muller, Easy boy, never 18 degree ramps all reduce pressure at the lever by changing leverage before the clutch push rod. Once you get past the push rod to reduce pressure, you are doing so at the pressure plate.. Wrong place..

The wheel standing the trike was a trap to bring out others.. Here is the thing.. You need to probably do a roll on in say 4th (or higher)  gear to feel the clutch slip.. Sorry but I wouldn't take one of those things much above above about 70/80  so I wouldn't recommend anyone do that on a trike.. 

What seem to be the consensus here with the guys that are using the CW is that a +1 Barnett plate kit is needed. Sounds good.. You've added a 480 spring to increase pressure but then you can't pull the clutch in... Add a clutch wiz to reduce pressure and the clutch slips.. Add a Barnett +1 plate kit and the clutch works..

Why not take the stock clutch or reduced pull spring and add the +1 plate kit?   

I know California is considered a foreign country for most but goods pass through it's boarders pretty easily..    If you want send me one, I'll measure the force on the pressure plate with a AIM 480 spring (have one) and compare it to an SE spring (have one)  and send it back.. I sure as heck ain't gonna buy one..

Max

[Mr. Wizard]

Seems you don't fly the US flag next to your Avatar. So it was an easy assumption you don't live in the US.

OK, sounds like you are getting to where I'm at. The CW reduces the down force of a spring. It's not a racing product. This is all over the site but guys with hot builds are using it to decrease the clutch lever pull. How much does it decrease the down force? 12% by average.

You originally stated to use a lighter spring and the stock retainer. That won't work. If you do go that direction then the clutch pack has even less down force, yes? So, the clutch will slip. Adding a +1 to a weaker spring will not work either. It's just a clutch disc that needs down force to hold.

The Barnett +1 kit is for aggressive riders, hot motors or for those guys who want a clutch pack to last for ever. The TG has tons of warranty issues with their clutch packs due to overheating and warped/black steels. The +1 kit fixed that.

Issues that I've been contacted about are 5th and 6th gear hard pulls. Diagnosing the issue with the rider normally finds heavily modified bikes using a stock clutch and aggressive ridding. That's not what the CW is all about. Solution is when they can't pull in a heavier spring with more down force? The CW. Add the extra down force and if the clutch is mucked up/worn out/warped then change it to something that will last a long time... +1 Kit.

PM me with your address. All I have is one of the older demo's made out of the lighter 6065 aluminum but it does the same thing. I'll send one of them to you. Test away and let me/us know the results. Since it is a lighter aluminum I wouldn't install it in a bike and ride it for long. It will show wear quickly.

I don't condone anyone to pull the front wheel of a trike but I can. A stock trike can if you know how, again I don't recommend it at all yet my trike isn't stock. This is not about trickery or a fishing expedition to draw anyone out. It's not about who's using Kraft products or who's buddy will jump in. It's about a fact finding process. So far the facts swing in favor of the CW. Here's Wizard's Law... I wouldn't agree/allow for it to be made if it didn't work.

From what I understand from the man who makes these; out of several thousand that have been made only a handful have come back. They came back because the purchaser doesn't understand what it's for or how it works. There is no real magic bullet to fix the weak stock clutch on a Harley when you modify a motor beyond the capacity of clutch lock up without spending more cash replacing the weak link that robs the TQ to the back tire. The CW wasn't designed for that purpose yet some are using it to help them pull in a heavy spring. That's "their" law and the way "they" want to use it. As stated several replies ago... It's you guys that have taken my piece of wood and sanded it down to something else. Yet again, it works for them too.


Don't forget to give me your address.

[Admiral Akbar]

Seems you don't fly the US flag next to your Avatar. So it was an easy assumption you don't live in the US.

When you figure out for which country the flag is, you'll have a laugh..

OK, sounds like you are getting to where I'm at. The CW reduces the down force of a spring. It's not a racing product. This is all over the site but guys with hot builds are using it to decrease the clutch lever pull. How much does it decrease the down force? 12% by average.

I can measure that pretty well.. I agree it's not for racing..

You originally stated to use a lighter spring and the stock retainer. That won't work. If you do go that direction then the clutch pack has even less down force, yes? So, the clutch will slip. Adding a +1 to a weaker spring will not work either. It's just a clutch disc that needs down force to hold.

It's all about balancing pressure, friction from the pack to get a clutch that works well.. I'm gussing on the eqivilent spring.. After I see the CW, I'll have a better idea what is needed.

The Barnett +1 kit is for aggressive riders, hot motors or for those guys who want a clutch pack to last for ever. 

Not sure I agree with this.. It's for aggressive riders that don't want the clutch to slip..

The TG has tons of warranty issues with their clutch packs due to overheating and warped/black steels. The +1 kit fixed that.

They did that buy increasing the coefficient of friction in the clutch pack.. A slipping clutch means sure death for a clutch no mater how many plates there is..

Issues that I've been contacted about are 5th and 6th gear hard pulls. Diagnosing the issue with the rider normally finds heavily modified bikes using a stock clutch and aggressive ridding. That's not what the CW is all about. Solution is when they can't pull in a heavier spring with more down force? The CW. Add the extra down force and if the clutch is mucked up/worn out/warped then change it to something that will last a long time... +1 Kit.

PM me with your address. All I have is one of the older demo's made out of the lighter 6065 aluminum but it does the same thing. I'll send one of them to you. Test away and let me/us know the results. Since it is a lighter aluminum I wouldn't install it in a bike and ride it for long. It will show wear quickly.

I don't condone anyone to pull the front wheel of a trike but I can. A stock trike can if you know how, again I don't recommend it at all yet my trike isn't stock. This is not about trickery or a fishing expedition to draw anyone out. It's not about who's using Kraft products or who's buddy will jump in. It's about a fact finding process. So far the facts swing in favor of the CW. Here's Wizard's Law... I wouldn't agree/allow for it to be made if it didn't work.

From what I understand from the man who makes these; out of several thousand that have been made only a handful have come back. They came back because the purchaser doesn't understand what it's for or how it works. There is no real magic bullet to fix the weak stock clutch on a Harley when you modify a motor beyond the capacity of clutch lock up without spending more cash replacing the weak link that robs the TQ to the back tire. The CW wasn't designed for that purpose yet some are using it to help them pull in a heavy spring. That's "their" law and the way "they" want to use it. As stated several replies ago... It's you guys that have taken my piece of wood and sanded it down to something else. Yet again, it works for them too.


Don't forget to give me your address.

It's all about balancing the lever pull, clutch disengagement (drag) and clutch slip.. My point is that you can't decrease clutch pull without changing pressure or leverage.. Changing it at the spring does not change travel at the pressure plate but decreases pressure..

No magic there..

and you have a PM

Max

[q1svt]

Seems you don't fly the US flag next to your Avatar. So it was an easy assumption you don't live in the US.

When you figure out for which country the flag is, you'll have a laugh..

It when I realized your sense of humor...

Gobble gobble

[msocko3]

The wheel standing the trike was a trap to bring out others.. Here is the thing.. You need to probably do a roll on in say 4th (or higher)  gear to feel the clutch slip.. Sorry but I wouldn't take one of those things much above above about 70/80  so I wouldn't recommend anyone do that on a trike.

Does pulling a trailer through the hills of Vermont with a trike and rolling on in 4th, 5th and 6th gear with no slip count? Wood TW555 cams, Jackpot head pipe. If I remember right in the neighborhood of 95ft/lbs SAE. I'm kind of a loose nut at times, picking up the front end and an occational burnout is all in good fun . I'm no engineer, just a someone who enjoys turning a wrench or two and knows when something is doing what I'm expecting.

[Admiral Akbar]

The wheel standing the trike was a trap to bring out others.. Here is the thing.. You need to probably do a roll on in say 4th (or higher)  gear to feel the clutch slip.. Sorry but I wouldn't take one of those things much above above about 70/80  so I wouldn't recommend anyone do that on a trike.

Does pulling a trailer through the hills of Vermont with a trike and rolling on in 4th, 5th and 6th gear with no slip count? Wood TW555 cams, Jackpot head pipe. If I remember right in the neighborhood of 95ft/lbs SAE. I'm kind of a loose nut at times, picking up the front end and an occational burnout is all in good fun . I'm no engineer, just a someone who enjoys turning a wrench or two and knows when something is doing what I'm expecting.

Stock clutch wid da wiz? Whitch byke?

[lost_harley]

I'm positive there are a ton of us putting "notify" on this thread.

[sprinkman]

The wheel standing the trike was a trap to bring out others.. Here is the thing.. You need to probably do a roll on in say 4th (or higher)  gear to feel the clutch slip.. Sorry but I wouldn't take one of those things much above above about 70/80  so I wouldn't recommend anyone do that on a trike.

Does pulling a trailer through the hills of Vermont with a trike and rolling on in 4th, 5th and 6th gear with no slip count? Wood TW555 cams, Jackpot head pipe. If I remember right in the neighborhood of 95ft/lbs SAE. I'm kind of a loose nut at times, picking up the front end and an occational burnout is all in good fun . I'm no engineer, just a someone who enjoys turning a wrench or two and knows when something is doing what I'm expecting.

Stock clutch wid da wiz? Whitch byke?

Its times like this I can't figure intelligent people out. If you don't like something just say it and be done with it. Spell check is a friend to all of us if it wasn't for that I could be just like you!!!!

[Admiral Akbar]

The wheel standing the trike was a trap to bring out others.. Here is the thing.. You need to probably do a roll on in say 4th (or higher)  gear to feel the clutch slip.. Sorry but I wouldn't take one of those things much above above about 70/80  so I wouldn't recommend anyone do that on a trike.

Does pulling a trailer through the hills of Vermont with a trike and rolling on in 4th, 5th and 6th gear with no slip count? Wood TW555 cams, Jackpot head pipe. If I remember right in the neighborhood of 95ft/lbs SAE. I'm kind of a loose nut at times, picking up the front end and an occational burnout is all in good fun . I'm no engineer, just a someone who enjoys turning a wrench or two and knows when something is doing what I'm expecting.

Stock clutch wid da wiz? Whitch byke?

Its times like this I can't figure intelligent people out. If you don't like something just say it and be done with it. Spell check is a friend to all of us if it wasn't for that I could be just like you!!!!

Aaahhh Yup...

Max

[strokerjlk]

PM me with your address. All I have is one of the older demo's made out of the lighter 6065 aluminum but it does the same thing. I'll send one of them to you. Test away and let me/us know the results. Since it is a lighter aluminum I wouldn't install it in a bike and ride it for long. It will show wear quickly.

Don't forget to give me your address.

and you have a PM

so is it gonna happen?
looking forward to a unbiased test

[Admiral Akbar]

PM me with your address. All I have is one of the older demo's made out of the lighter 6065 aluminum but it does the same thing. I'll send one of them to you. Test away and let me/us know the results. Since it is a lighter aluminum I wouldn't install it in a bike and ride it for long. It will show wear quickly.

Don't forget to give me your address.

and you have a PM

so is it gonna happen?
looking forward to a unbiased test

Aaaahhh Yah..

Max

[msocko3]

Stock clutch wid da wiz? Whitch byke?

2010 Triglide, stock clutch pack with SE spring and Wiz. Would it have eventually slipped, hard to say. I had about 22,000 miles on it when I traded it in, I removed the Wiz before I let the dealer have it.

[Admiral Akbar]

Stock clutch wid da wiz? Whitch byke?

2010 Triglide, stock clutch pack with SE spring and Wiz. Would it have eventually slipped, hard to say. I had about 22,000 miles on it when I traded it in, I removed the Wiz before I let the dealer have it.

Who tuned it?? Got any run files..

Max


Add:

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,69372.msg750210.html#msg750210

Take a SE plate reduce the pressure from 375 lb to 262lbs.. That is the equivalent of a stock 06 up spring... Will it slip?? Maybe... Maybe not..

Max

[Admiral Akbar]

Lever Pull tester..

[attach=0]

Max


[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[msocko3]

Who tuned it?? Got any run files..

Max


Add:

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,69372.msg750210.html#msg750210

Take a SE plate reduce the pressure from 375 lb to 262lbs.. That is the equivalent of a stock 06 up spring... Will it slip?? Maybe... Maybe not..

Max

No run files, was tuned by Larry's Sports Center in Galeton PA.

[gordonr]

Lever Pull tester..

[attach=0]

Max

I imagine the lever pull test would done on a hydraulic clutch system and not a cable?

[laserp]

Does the wiz displace the spring more axially?
Spring rates are lbs/in and are linear right? The more you displace them the higher the spring force.
Maybe the wiz compensates it's mechanical advantage by a larger displacement?
I think moving the fulcrum towards the center reduces the spring rate, reducing the lever force, but adds more displacement to get the pressure plate force.
Just thinking.
Laserp