Mild build on my FXR4

[ricochet]

Awsome job of posting pics and descriptions.  Valuable info here and clear shots.  Noboby dare mention the color coordinated aspect of this shop.  The man loves red, right down to the shop rags, tools and oh yea, the bike.   

keep it coming.

ricochet

[tinkerman]

Hey Mikey,

Great job man....on the bike and on the thread. Just got off the phone with the folk that have my cyls and heads. Cyls done, and ready to put in the new valve guides, Yaa Hoo. I am glad I sent the parts to these fellows. Not to many folk in my neck of the woods that are into the Harley thing in a serious way but this guy in particular has been working on HD machines for 35 years. Ya gotta love it.

Just phoned to see how things were going and spent a half hour discussing base leaks (they will check my cylinder bases for me) the Super E carbs (that damn off idle hesitation) and motors in general. This fellow is an Evo fan just because he believes that the evo delivers more buildability, simplicity and bang for the buck. Can't wait to get back home and start sewing her back up.

Keep up the good work on your build and on this thread,

Tinkerman

[Buddy WMC]

Just phoned to see how things were going and spent a half hour discussing base leaks (A) (they will check my cylinder bases for me). (B) The Super E carbs (that damn off idle hesitation) and motors in general. This fellow is an Evo fan just because he believes that the evo delivers more buildability, simplicity and bang for the buck. Can't wait to get back home and start sewing her back up.

Keep up the good work on your build and on this thread,

Tinkerman

Tink,
(A), They can square the cylinder bases up on a lathe or lap them. I'd also recommend installing the Hayden "Oil Fix" return jets while you are at it.

(B), That can be fixed very easily. Most of the time the accelerator pump is not adjusted properly. If you can't get it right, I'll fix it 

[tinkerman]

Hey Buddy,

How ya doing?

Discussed the Hayden fix with that fellow and he doesn't feel it is a bad idea but he suggested in his experience that the oil journal in the cylinder and the case don't always line up perfectly which can complicate installation. They are going to check my cyl bases and said he would prefer to check my cases and deck them as well. His preferred installation method using the James metal base gasgets that I am using is to install them dry and break the engine in with some care. Says this has given him good results over the years. I am still considering using some hylomar.

As to the S&S Super E. I have played with and rebuilt the accelerator pump and checked for intake leaks. The next theing I was going to do was start playing with my jets. The fellow I was talking to said that the off idle hesitation (pretty minor) is pretty standard with the S&S unit and they have gotten around it by cutting a small (not sure how big) groove in the throttle plate which helps with the transition between circuits. If I can't improve the carb with jet tinkering early in the summer, I might be tempted to give him a shot at it if I happen to be out his way. His shop is about four hours away. I have been riding the bike for four years as is and have learned to live with it as it is only a minor prob. I can actually minimise it by idling the engine up a bit as I discovered while tinkering with it.

Anyway, it was good to have a talk with a fellow that is in to the Harley thing. I live out in the boonies and aside from this site I don't have a lot of resources for feedback on the Heritage. This fellow didn't exactly echo the general concencus on all issues that exist on this board but I figure that is part of the deal. Different strokes for different folks.

As usual, appreciate the input... go easy,

Tinkerman

[Buddy WMC]

Tink,
I used the Hayden jets with my big bore cylinders and the James base gaskets with no fitment problems. Best money I ever spent was to have my engine dynoed. I'd suggest that you or anyone else do the same. How do you know where you are going, if you do not know where you are at? After nine pulls and the required adjustments we now know exactly where the bike is at and what can be done to make a couple of improvements.

[tinkerman]

No arguement here Buddy.

I have heard a lot of fellows say good things about the Hatden jets and as for the dyno I am sure it is a great help in dialing in an engine. I just don't have ready access to one and even if there was one kicking around I still just might keep on doing the seat of the pants mechanics that I have always done. No way I can do as good a job as a dyno and I have nothing against the technology....it's just that if at 80 mph I still have a good handful of useful throttle left on the old Heritage (and the plugs have good colour) she is where she needs to be for me. Pretty basic I guess but I am a pretty basic guy. Now I am sure that a dyno would identify the prob with that off idle hesitation I have with that S&S Super E  in quick fashion but I daresay this summer or next I will track it down as well.

Just different strokes for different folks I guess.

In any case, take it easy.

Tink

[fxr4mikey]

Gerat thread.
Thanks
2 things though.
1- when the cam bearing was installed - is it flush wn the case?
There is a LIP in the case, you can only set the cam bearing so far into the case, until it hits the lip.  I should have taken a picture of that .... I'll look through my stuff, I might have a shot where I can point that out in the picture.
It is CRITICAL that you get the cam bearing all the WAY TO THE SEAT (lip).  If you don't do this, the cam will not go far enough into the chest and you will not be able to seal the cam cover on.   If you re-read that section in my thread, you'll see that I had measured the cam end play BEFORE I opened the cam cover. Then, AFTER I put the new bearing in, I put a gasket on the cam chest, put the cover on it, torqued it down with 3 of the bolts, and re-measured the cam end play.  My results were EXACTLY the same as BEFORE I swapped out the cam bearing.  This provided me with the assurance that I had the cam bearing SEATED where it was supposed to be, and exactly where the stock one had been.




I was told to resess it a bit.
again, it will only go in so far


That is how it gets oiled - oil drip down from the case inner to the opening above the thrust washer.
2- A clean / organized shop is the sign of a sick mind
HAHAHHAHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA          THANKS !!!!!!!!!   

[fxr4mikey]

Awsome job of posting pics and descriptions.  Valuable info here and clear shots.  Noboby dare mention the color coordinated aspect of this shop.  The man loves red, right down to the shop rags, tools and oh yea, the bike. 

keep it coming.

ricochet

  Thanks !!

my cars, are both pickup trucks .. both Dodge ... a 1998 1/2 ton, FIRE ENGINE RED ... 2003 3/4 ton  FIRE ENGINE RED   

somein about RED that I REALLY LIKE     

[fxr4mikey]

no progress today   

I went out to work on it this morning... with all expectations that I might have it back together today/tomorrow, and the my battery cable would be in on Monday ....

HOWEVER ... first thing, right off the bat ... I started to put some oil on the cylinder studs, and found that on the front cylinder, the front left stud was loose ...

so much so that I unscrewed it and removed it from the case with my thumb and finger ....

soooooooooooo, I read the manual to find out how to install the studs ..... make a couple of phone calls, THANKS PAUL !! (littlebear) .....

I've decided to replace the entire set of studs. SOOOOOOOOOooooooooooo a trip down to the stealers place (I was going into town anyway) .... nope, not in stock ... he has 3 in stock THREE what's up with that ... someone replace ONE stud ... OK, well, I'm putting in a new set of SE studs. 50 clams, they will take a bit more compression than the stock studs, and should I ever build it up more I'll be good in this space.

SOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooo, I call my Indy and tell him to order me a set, 49.99 .... he says that he should have them by Monday or Tuesday ......... sooooooo the build is on hold AGAIN

[Sc00ter]

Awsome job of posting pics and descriptions.  Valuable info here and clear shots.  Noboby dare mention the color coordinated aspect of this shop.  The man loves red, right down to the shop rags, tools and oh yea, the bike. 

keep it coming.

ricochet

Thanks !!

my cars, are both pickup trucks .. both Dodge ... a 1998 1/2 ton, FIRE ENGINE RED ... 2003 3/4 ton  FIRE ENGINE RED   

somein about RED that I REALLY LIKE     

EVERYONE knows red bikes are faster!!!  

[fxr4mikey]

javascript:void(0);
Sinking
Gerat thread.
Thanks
2 things though.
1- when the cam bearing was installed - is it flush wn the case? I was told to resess it a bit. That is how it gets oiled - oil drip down from the case inner to the opening above the thrust washer.
2- A clean / organized shop is the sign of a sick mind

OK, you made me go look..... cause I'm OLD and can't remember stuff more than 3 days ....


Here's a picture with NO bearing installed, you can see the lip that stops the bearing from being pushed through and into the crank side of the case
You can also clearly see the 'relief' in the face of the case for oil to get between the thrust washer and the cam shaft, which will flow into the bearing



Here's a picture of the cam bearing being installed.  You'll see the 'relief' cut out of the face of the case ... when the thrust washer comes to rest on the face of the case, oil can run down into that relief and get onto the camshaft ... AS LONG AS THE BEARING is inserted BEYOND THE FACE of the case,  Hence the IMPORTANCE of insuring that the bearing is FULLY SEATED


here's a picture that was taken when I was talking about the breather valve .. however you can see the cam bearing in this picture, and you can see that it recessed beyond the face of the case - WHEW !!   



Thanks for you question !!!  It made me go look at the picture to double ck that it was in far enough.  I knew that I had seated it, but I also knew that I had used the thrush washer on the end of the old cam .... that being the situation it might have stopped right at the face of the case.  However I seem to recall, but can't swear to it... that to make sure I seated it, I took the washer off and only used the cam to seat it finally.

Your question was VERY GOOD, one it made me dbl ck my work, second, it educated me.  I never really thought about where/how the bearing got oiled

Thanks !

[fxr4mikey]

Gerat thread.
Thanks
2 things though.
1- when the cam bearing was installed - is it flush wn the case?
There is a LIP in the case, you can only set the cam bearing so far into the case, until it hits the lip.  I should have taken a picture of that .... I'll look through my stuff, I might have a shot where I can point that out in the picture.
It is CRITICAL that you get the cam bearing all the WAY TO THE SEAT (lip).  If you don't do this, the cam will not go far enough into the chest and you will not be able to seal the cam cover on.   If you re-read that section in my thread, you'll see that I had measured the cam end play BEFORE I opened the cam cover. Then, AFTER I put the new bearing in, I put a gasket on the cam chest, put the cover on it, torqued it down with 3 of the bolts, and re-measured the cam end play.  My results were EXACTLY the same as BEFORE I swapped out the cam bearing.  This provided me with the assurance that I had the cam bearing SEATED where it was supposed to be, and exactly where the stock one had been.




I was told to resess it a bit.
again, it will only go in so far


That is how it gets oiled - oil drip down from the case inner to the opening above the thrust washer.
2- A clean / organized shop is the sign of a sick mind
HAHAHHAHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA          THANKS !!!!!!!!!   

As I thought about this last night and this morning, it seems clear to me that that statement is incorrect. The thrust washer and shim stock, with the thrust washer on the face of the cam determines how far in the cam goes, not the position of the bearing in the case....... since the cam shaft could go ALL THE WAY through the bearing, except that it has a shoulder on it that goes up against the shim stock, which is up against the thrust washer, which rest up against the face of the case ......
The position of the bearing, as long as it is AT LEAST flush with the face of the case (it needs to be fully seated beyond the face of the case) will have no effects of measuring cam shaft end play.

Thanks for you question !

[psyco369]

I bought I tool set when I did mine and "IF" I remember correctly the bearing installer set it counter sunk like .030 I could be wrong
wait I will go look at the installer brb...........ok after looking at my tool there is about .030 offset in it I am not sure if it HAS to be offset but I think you should find out I would hate for you to have a problem with it after all that work.....I will take a pic of the tool for you

I hope this helps not that you want to tear into you cam chest again but if you need this offset better to find out now 
oh and you will like that S&S read valve mine seems to breath much better since I installed it

[fxr4mikey]

I bought I tool set when I did mine and "IF" I remember correctly the bearing installer set it counter sunk like .030 I could be wrong
wait I will go look at the installer brb...........ok after looking at my tool there is about .030 offset in it I am not sure if it HAS to be offset but I think you should find out I would hate for you to have a problem with it after all that work.....I will take a pic of the tool for you

I hope this helps not that you want to tear into you cam chest again but if you need this offset better to find out now 
oh and you will like that S&S read valve mine seems to breath much better since I installed it
KEWL !!

Psyco - THANKS for posting up that info, and the pic !   I would rather chk this now, rather than find out later that I didn't get it right.  I'm gonna to remove the front lifters and see if I can see it with my mirror. If not, then I'll have to open the cam chest again      better now than later with a problem, peace of mind goes a LONG WAY

[tinkerman]

When I installed the new cam bearing in my evo (with Torr. stamp pointing towards you) I just tapped it in with the back end of an appropriately sized socket (flat surface area) until it seated in the case. I know there is a press in tool available as well but after checking out the bearing which I could push in about 1/4 of the way and testing my method with a few light taps it seemed to me that it was going in pretty smoothly. I just continued to tap it lightly till I felt and heard that difference in the rebound that is evident when the bearing seats.

Not sure if this is Kosher or not but have installed a lot of bearings and bushings over the years in this way. Now the cam bearing is a little light duty in construction which I kept in mind as I didn't want to distort the bearing outer race. But it went in very smoothly with very light taps. Might not be by the book but I am feel confident that the bearing is good to go. The rollers are turning smoothly and all looks good.

From memory my bearing is sitting just inside the machined surface much the same as indicated in the pics posted by Mikey. I will check the cam clearance as well but waiting for the cam cover gasket to arrive. But again, as stated earlier it is not the can bearing that affects endplay as far as I can see but the thickness of the shims up against the machined surface.

Just my .02,

Tinkerman

Tinkerman

[psyco369]

I just measured the offset and it is more like .025
tink you were talking about the oil fix I was going to use that too but then I talked to Donny Peterson and he said to use pig tails it is a kit that has 2 threaded tubes  you have to tap the bottom of the cylinders and install them (tap and special allen wrench included) the tubes stick out and go past the base gasket so the oil never touches them...no chance of becoming turned like the hayden kit
preston cycle part # 30123

[tinkerman]

Ya Psyco,

I have heard of them. Have you got a brand name for that product?


Tinkerman

[psyco369]

dude I cant tell ya.... the package and instructions only say pigtails no mfg they may be CCI but not sure .....I cant say long term but for the last year they have worked no leak and no side effects

[Buddy WMC]

I'm not sure how the Hayden jets could turn as one end is larger than the other. When I installed mine, they were locktighted and lightly tapped square into the cases. The cylinders slid right down over the top of the jets as they are supposed to per the instructions. I did not use the supplied gaskets and used Genuine James instead. You just have to be careful not to drop one of the brass jets into the engine by mistake. We packed each cylinder with clean rags, so that was not a problem. Easy installation and they work, I would not want to be drilling and tapping anywhere near an assembled lower end unless I had to.

[psyco369]

no you tap the cylinder before assembly the tubes are installed with locktight I had the shop tap and install them when the did the hone and head work....I am not saying the hayden kit is no good as we used it on my friends bike and it worked great......I just liked the idea they cant drop in for any reason but are still removable and reusable....for me if it can possibly fall into the cylinder it will

[DYNACONV1]

Hey Mikey,

Great post!  I am about to embark on a very similar build on a 98 Dyna Conv.  I have a question.  Where did you get the chrome lifter blocks?

JB

[fxr4mikey]

Hey Mikey,

Great post! 

Thanks !!

I am about to embark on a very similar build on a 98 Dyna Conv.  I have a question.  Where did you get the chrome lifter blocks?

JB

ebay

Can't say for sure that this is the store that I got them from, I can't find the reciept

but here's a set on ebay right now ... seems like about the same price that I paid

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/CHROME-LIFTER-TAPPET-BLOCKS-FOR-HARLEY-BT-1340-84-99_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a570Q7c66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318Q7c301Q3a1Q7c293Q3a1Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem400001318470QQitemZ400001318470QQptZMotorcyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories



Good luck with your build  .... be sure to post up and let us know how you're doing, and include PICS !!!!

[fxr4mikey]

the project is on hold until my new cyl studs come in .

going back with stock studs with the shoulder on them

I was told yesterday that it might be a week to 10 days to get them

[fxr4mikey]

The new studs came in today .... so it's BACK TO THE BUILD !!!!!!!!!!


I'll be working on it this evening ... get the studs in and let it sit overnight .... make a pass at getting one of the cylinders on tomorrow


more pics and information to follow .....

[fxr4mikey]

I was getting ready to clean up the threads on the cyl studs when I found the loose one ..... OK, so you see all the painters tape .... 2 things ... 1) I'm a chickenchizt and I didn't want anything inside the case that wasn't already in there    .... so I covered it up ....  2) then I just left it like that until I got the new studs on ....



I put my boxend wrench over the stud first, then a double nut, slide the boxend wrench (mine is a ratchet type - fast and easy) up to the bottom nut and unscrew it. I didn't need to heat it, or use a breaker bar




maybe it was a good thing that I found a loose one, and decided to change the entire set ... this one looks like crap ! 


AND, it wasn't the only one that looked like crap !!



Here I'm putting a light coat of oil on the inside threads of all the head bolts.
I took one of the old cyl studs, dipped it in clean oil, tilted the head bolt on a slight angle and screwed the stud into it. This, as best I could tell with a flashlight, lightly oiled the threads. Then I set all the heads bolts on end on a paper towel thinking that if there was excess oil in there that it's drain out before I got around to putting them on..... you know how fast I get this chit done around here !!