12mm O2 sensor best location?

[joe_lyons]

I have my 09 dyna that I converted to FBW and I am using a fatbob/wideglide headpipe that I converted to a 2-1 and added a thunderheader muffler.  I was wondering if the same location that is good for the touring models will also work with a shorter 2-1 or will the location that is on the new softails and dynas be the best spot? 

[Doc 1]

I have my 09 dyna that I converted to FBW and I am using a fatbob/wideglide headpipe that I converted to a 2-1 and added a thunderheader muffler.  I was wondering if the same location that is good for the touring models will also work with a shorter 2-1 or will the location that is on the new softails and dynas be the best spot?

Joe
It depends on what calibration you're using. If you converted to the CAN bus (358, 242 cali) you need the sensors where the new Softail and Dyna's have theirs, if you're using the J1850 (44, 009 cali) you need to have the 02's between the engine and trany. The ECM's, CAN and J1850, are programed to recieve the 02 data at a certain time so the placment is critical.
Doc

[joe_lyons]

Mine is j1850.  I just didn't know if my shorter pipe would reek havoc with the signals.

[joe_lyons]

mabie this

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[wurk_truk]

I wouldn't place them there, in the collector.  They HAVE to be in individual pipes for proper operation.  The problem that Doc is stating is this:  the ECM will only look at the O2s at a certain time during the combustion cycle.  It's pre programmed in and how far down in the pipe a particular slug of exhaust will be relative to when the spark plug fired.

That being said, I would move them to up where the break pedal intersect the pipes, like you show.  It may very well come down to this won't work correctly, but SC has told me to try similar placements.  It's worth a try before you have to think about a different pipe due to the 009/044 cal you're using.

It may be easier in the end, to tune the bike open loop.  Then, O2 placement will not matter, you can still run the 009/044 cals, and not have to worry about incorrect O2 placement.  It's just one of the deals working with custom made stuff.

[Merc63]

Where would be the best location if using a DTT TCFI system?

[joe_lyons]

I would call DTT and find out. They probably have the best idea.

[joe_lyons]

So I guess my question is has anyone tuned a bike with 02 sensors in a different location but still the correct depth and have any issues?

[Paul in Alaska]

So where are they supposed to be on a 2010 RGC? I was under the idea that closer to the exhaust port is better as long as you do not burn them up??

[wurk_truk]

So where are they supposed to be on a 2010 RGC? I was under the idea that closer to the exhaust port is better as long as you do not burn them up??

This is NOT correct, Paul.  Inside of the ECM programming, it's programmed WHEN to look at the sensors.  I don't think it's exactly like Doc states... that it must be in THE exact same spot, but in general that IS what one wishes to do.  The ECM only looks at the sensors once per cycle.  I think Joe may luck out in his placement, but maybe not.  But the closer to the head one runs the 12mm O2 sensors the FURTHER away one is to having them read at the correct time.  These are the issues that really WILL screw with a tune, AND screw with making a tune if using the stock sensors to populate the VE tables.  PV, SEPST, and TTS all use fuel trims to set the fuel tables.  Load in a map, with the cal VEs.  Then the ECM applies more or less fuel, depending upon what the O2 sensors read.  These are called 'trims', or adaptive fuel values.  Collect data, and then those three programs figure out how much fuel has been added or lost and then converts those trims into what it would take, VE wise, to eliminate those AFVs.  If you move the O2s too far out of range, the ECM is trying to apply trims to each firing cycle but the O2s are placed wrong and are reading the WRONG oxygen level for the firing cycle it is SUPPOSED to read and adjust.

Not a good thing, IMHO.  This is the WHY we always try to teach how important PLACEMENT of O2 sensors really are to not only running closed loop, but also how these tuners make a 'tune' in the first place.

In talking to Steve Cole, the placement of the heated sensors can be moved about a foot, so it will be right on the edge for you Joe.  Go ahead and install them, and then, if it were me?  I would go see Rigidthumper and take an actual reading of the AFR and see how well that matches what the ECM is commanding the AFR to be.  The closer the actual to the commanded, the better it all works together.

Also, you could always get your hands on an 08-09 ECM and install 18mm bungs near the heads.  You would lose the benefits of using Lambda, but the sensors would be in a better overall position to read things correctly.  AND... the DBW and cruise will still work.  I have an09 ECM on my 2010 rat bike...  to keep those 18mm sensors (I couldn't afford a new pipe when I installed the 120R).

[joe_lyons]

I will double check the pipe length compared to a stock FLT and my pipe and go from there.

[hrdtail78]

While I agree with what Truk is saying. I think the starting cal and exhaust timing events will come into play as well.

[mayor]

Also, you could always get your hands on an 08-09 ECM and install 18mm bungs near the heads.  You would lose the benefits of using Lambda, but the sensors would be in a better overall position to read things correctly.  AND... the DBW and cruise will still work.  I have an09 ECM on my 2010 rat bike... 

[Paul in Alaska]

In talking to Steve Cole, the placement of the heated sensors can be moved about a foot, so it will be right on the edge for you Joe.  Go ahead and install them, and then, if it were me?  I would go see Rigidthumper and take an actual reading of the AFR and see how well that matches what the ECM is commanding the AFR to be.  The closer the actual to the commanded, the better it all works together.
I have moved mine about 10 inches closer to the exhaust ports to facilitate the use of a 08 Reinhart 2 into 1 on my 2010 Road Glide. So with the information at hand this may create an issue?

[joe_lyons]

Measured  a set of stock FLT pipes and on the rear the sensor is roughly 19-20 inches and on the front it is roughly 23-25 inches. On my pipe the rear O2 location that I thought about would be spot on for 19-20 inches and for the front I will be at about 16-17 inches which is shorter but within a close range. But then should i move the rear sensor up at the same ammount to recreate the same length ratio as stock?  I was thinking also about the exhaust valve timing also being a big factor in when to sample not just the location.  I wonder if it is able to be changed in the ecm of when to sample the exhaust just like the camtune feature with sampling the MAP signal?

[wurk_truk]

Paul, I don't think so so much.  If it is working for you in closed loop and the tune doesn't turn to crap in a couple thousand miles...  you may very well be good to go.

[Paul in Alaska]

Paul, I don't think so so much.  If it is working for you in closed loop and the tune doesn't turn to crap in a couple thousand miles...  you may very well be good to go.

The tune has lasted a good 8000 miles. Not the best tune as I am still learning. I think I need to neck down the muffler a bit as I still cannot get white cells in the 2000-2500 range at low map. The accel enrichment works on temp, I am struggling to figure out how to fatten that up as I have low low end torque....guttless on the bottom....1500-2800 rpm at a throttle whack....really picks up at 3000 rpm....
Thanks for you help....
Paul

[Paul in Alaska]

Paul, I don't think so so much.  If it is working for you in closed loop and the tune doesn't turn to crap in a couple thousand miles...  you may very well be good to go.

The tune has lasted a good 8000 miles. Not the best tune as I am still learning. I think I need to neck down the muffler a bit as I still cannot get white cells in the 2000-2500 range at low map. The accel enrichment works on temp, I am struggling to figure out how to fatten that up as I have low low end torque....guttless on the bottom....1500-2800 rpm at a throttle whack....really picks up at 3000 rpm....
Thanks for you help....
Paul

Anyone?

[joe_lyons]

What's ur motor setup?

[Paul in Alaska]

What's ur motor setup?
2010 Road Glide
96 inch
SE 204 cams
.030 Cometic head gasket
valve job with smoothed valve seats (no ridges)
2008 Reinhart 2 into 1 with 12mm o2 sensors moved forward about 8 to 10 inches from stock position. (only place they would fit)
Balanced, blueprinted, welded crank shaft.

[joe_lyons]

Ya make that baffle a little smaller and see what she does then.  The build isn't very outrageous.

[Paul in Alaska]

yup

[1FSTRK]

Measured  a set of stock FLT pipes and on the rear the sensor is roughly 19-20 inches and on the front it is roughly 23-25 inches. On my pipe the rear O2 location that I thought about would be spot on for 19-20 inches and for the front I will be at about 16-17 inches which is shorter but within a close range. But then should i move the rear sensor up at the same ammount to recreate the same length ratio as stock?  I was thinking also about the exhaust valve timing also being a big factor in when to sample not just the location.  I wonder if it is able to be changed in the ecm of when to sample the exhaust just like the camtune feature with sampling the MAP signal?

This is why in the past we were constantly told that we needed to "fix "our build combination if we had closed loop problems. The exhaust pulse is going to be different with exhaust system changes, port flow and speed, cam timing, and it goes from pulses to a semi steady stream with rpm. You cannot just copy the stock location because you are not running the stock combination.
The best solution is to make it adjustable in the software, kind of like the cam off set. This would require a procedure to determine when the correct time is with each combination. I do not for see this coming soon because it will take time, money, and some smart people at the software end of things. What we are left with is the old trial and error method of starting with the stock location and if it is not correct moving up the pipe until we hit the sweet spot. This requires moving the bungs and testing to see if the closed loop tune will agree and hold. A few will spend the time and money on combination but most will not and some combinations will just be to erratic to work at all.

[Steve Cole]

There are a few standards that for the most part work but you do need to test the temperature to make sure you do not get into trouble and that cannot be handled by software.

From pipe end (furthest point from cylinder head) you want to move forward 3-4 times the diameter for the pipe size as a O2 starting location. So if you had a 1 3/4" pipe size you would start at a point 5 1/4" from the end of the pipe itself.