Injector timing

[ViennaHog]

Typical sequential EFI systems open the injector right before the intake valve opens to get optimum mixing of air and fuel. AFAIK this timing is not accessible via our trusted tuning systems or is the TTS IVO function among other things used to move the injector timing around? If not what is the effect of a mismatch between intake valve opening and injector opening? If you compare the specs of a typical HD stock cam even with a mild cam like the 57H the difference in IVO is significant. Any thoughts?

[ultraswede]

I used to tune the 5,3l Gen III GM v8 with HPtuners.

I experimented a bit with injection start timing, witch is accessible on HPtuners.
What I saw, was a significant worsening of fuel consumption when I moved the start of injection to spray on an open valve.

The thing to do is to spray on the hot closed valve, to give the fuel time to evaporate, and cooling the valve at the same time.
Then we will also avoid raw fuel hitting the cylinder wall, potentially washing away the oil film.

[joe_lyons]

I too have wondered about this.  And didn't get much of anything when I talked to Steve Cole.  And now I wonder about the Delphi ignition system knowing when max cyl pressure is and from that we could tune ignition a lot better I would think.

[strokerjlk]

I too have wondered about this.  And didn't get much of anything when I talked to Steve Cole.  And now I wonder about the Delphi ignition system knowing when max cyl pressure is and from that we could tune ignition a lot better I would think.

thats what started all this mt 8 BS.
you were not around here at that time. but everybody used to whine about it .
everyone wanted calibrations with diff cams. unable to produce actual maps from bikes with diff cam timing events,we got the mt 8 fluff.
it worked, it shut everone up. until now.

[joe_lyons]

From what I got from Steve Cole was that the cam selector doesn't mess with injector timing.  I would like to know when the injector fires though.

[rbabos]

From what I got from Steve Cole was that the cam selector doesn't mess with injector timing.  I would like to know when the injector fires though.

Just before the intake opens. Not sure there is any (normal) means to change this in the Delphi.
Ron

[joe_lyons]

Stock cam is around 3°-12 atdc but most aftermarket are 15-30 btdc.  Just saying that if it timed for 3° then its quite a bit off unless stock it fires at 30 or so?

[ultraswede]

Just before the intake opens.

How do you know that?

[rbabos]

Just before the intake opens.

How do you know that?

Standard proven method with the best results.
Ron

[ultraswede]

Standard proven method with the best results.

The norm is to inject on a closed inlet valve.

Has anyone actually measured when our system inject the fuel.
It can be easily done, if one has an oscilloscope.
Take one pule from a known ignition timing, and one pulse from the injector then compare the time in between compensated for the Rpm.

I don't have an oscilloscope

[rbabos]

Standard proven method with the best results.

The norm is to inject on a closed inlet valve.

Has anyone actually measured when our system inject the fuel.
It can be easily done, if one has an oscilloscope.
Take one pule from a known ignition timing, and one pulse from the injector then compare the time in between compensated for the Rpm.

I don't have an oscilloscope

Just before the intake opens means the valve is closed. Didn't think that needed to be explained.
Ron

[ultraswede]

[quoteJust before the intake opens means the valve is closed. Didn't think that needed to be explained.
Ron][/quote]

Sorry for not understanding the engineering expression "just"

[Rider57]

65ms  before the valve opens if I remember correctly.

[ultraswede]

[quote65ms  before the valve opens if I remember correctly.][/quote]


With due respect, I don't think 65ms is possible.

At 2000 rpm the crank moves 12 degrees every ms.
That would make 12x65 = 780 degrees.

[Rider57]

Thats what I come up with also, but thats what I measure with the oscope.
There is some variation that I think is caused by the chain drive and cam timing lapse vs. what is being told to the ecu via ckp.

[FLTRI]

Kinda addresses the importance of precise injector timing.
Bob

[Rider57]

 

Kinda addresses the importance of precise injector timing.
Bob

[1FSTRK]

It is always amazing how things that are out of reach for adjustment or not fully understood are judged to be unimportant.

[FLTRI]

It is always amazing how things that are out of reach for adjustment or not fully understood are judged to be unimportant.

...or judged to be important. 
Bob

[joe_lyons]

I sent this question to the president of dynojet so hopefully an answer within a couple of days or mabie tobefrank knows?

[hrdtail78]

It fires on a closed valve.  Changing cams?  The ECM still knows when that valve closes.  We can see what the ECM reads with MT8's and the "fluff" of cam data.  6-7 IVO valvues?  Why couldn't injector timing be treated like  ignition timing in a MAP based system?

[ViennaHog]

There are a few tuning devices out there for race car applications that based on the cam profile allow to set injector timing. To me it appears much more complicated than just firing at the closed valve. From a brief look it seems more like firing when the cam is on the 'right' spot of the lobe. System voltage is another consideration as it affects the 'lag' of the injector between the actual command to fire and the reaction of the injector.
So I doubt that a few data gleaned from the map sensor readings would allow the ECM to recalculate the correct timing after a cam change.

Again, I just read a few articles so WTFDIK

[hrdtail78]

Ok.

[FLTRI]

So I doubt that a few data gleaned from the map sensor readings would allow the ECM to recalculate the correct timing after a cam change.

So uh how do it know? It don't. That's why TTS has a cam estimator feature?
Bob

[joe_lyons]

Ole king Cole already said that cam tune has nothing to do with injector timing just map sample.

[mayor]

I thought Steve said that as well Joe.  If I remember correctly, he corrected one of my posts where I mistakenly posted that injector timing was being changed and he stated that it was Map sampling only.   

[mayor]

here's a post from Steve that explicitly states MAP only:

Cam settings in Mastertune does NOT adjust the injectors. People have made up all kinds of things as to what it does but very few have understood it properly. NO sensor is read all the time, the ECM does things one at a time just like you and I do, it just does it a whole lot faster but they still have limits. Cam setting just tells the software where the intake valve is open or closed and this effects many things within the ECM setup. The ECM knows that it cannot do things with the intake valve open so it needs to understand where that area is.

The reason we use MAP to look at it is fairly simple. When the valve opens the manifold pressure drops rapidly so you can see it and detect that point for the IVO setting. The only thing that we see is that some of the camshafts used along with the other valvetrain components end up opening at a point that is really between the adjustment points so were stuck with going to the one just before or just after opening occurs. This is why we tell you to try them both and see what works best for you.

[1FSTRK]

here's a post from Steve that explicitly states MAP only:

Cam settings in Mastertune does NOT adjust the injectors. People have made up all kinds of things as to what it does but very few have understood it properly. NO sensor is read all the time, the ECM does things one at a time just like you and I do, it just does it a whole lot faster but they still have limits. Cam setting just tells the software where the intake valve is open or closed and this effects many things within the ECM setup. The ECM knows that it cannot do things with the intake valve open so it needs to understand where that area is.

The reason we use MAP to look at it is fairly simple. When the valve opens the manifold pressure drops rapidly so you can see it and detect that point for the IVO setting. The only thing that we see is that some of the camshafts used along with the other valvetrain components end up opening at a point that is really between the adjustment points so were stuck with going to the one just before or just after opening occurs. This is why we tell you to try them both and see what works best for you.

Steve would tend to split hairs at times. When Harley did away with the cam sensors that they had on the early twin cams they started using the MAP sensor with lots of code to identify the intake stroke. He will tell you that there is no map or table that you plug the number 15 into and it will open the injector at 15 degrees and that the cam selector program does not directly tell the injector when to open, but something somewhere does.
If the map sensor poling time and/or signal strength is use anywhere in the code to affect the code that controls the injector then it does affect the injector timing.
To say it is a myth that it is important would be to say that every fuel injected motor can start to spray the injector at the same crank degrees no matter what size, shape or brand of engine and that is just not so.

[hrdtail78]

I know what Steve said, but I also understand how one thing in the ECM effects others indirectly.  So, the IVO setting effects when the sensor polls. Does it poll only once per rotation?  Once per power pulse?  Or maybe it isn't just once.  Steve has stated how it doesn't poll all the time. So, one automatically goes to once. 

Does IVO effect ignition timing?  I believe it does indirectly.   If it shifts where you idle to the left.  Indirectly you shifted the timing table also. 

J38 has some interesting control of injector timing. It isn't only changing the timing of when it starts. It will also shift when it wants it to end by shifting the whole PW.  Changes timing with coolant temp. Does things so it isn't spraying through an open valve on to the cylinder wall. Washing the cylinder wall.  Look at the hurdles that have to be overcome with direct injection.

I believe injector timing timing is very important and dynamic. It isn't as easy as putting a couple of key strokes into code. 

[mayor]

Steve would tend to split hairs at times.

have noticed that a time or two, or four or five. 

When Harley did away with the cam sensors that they had on the early twin cams they started using the MAP sensor with lots of code to identify the intake stroke. He will tell you that there is no map or table that you plug the number 15 into and it will open the injector at 15 degrees and that the cam selector program does not directly tell the injector when to open, but something somewhere does.
If the map sensor poling time and/or signal strength is use anywhere in the code to affect the code that controls the injector then it does affect the injector timing.
To say it is a myth that it is important would be to say that every fuel injected motor can start to spray the injector at the same crank degrees no matter what size, shape or brand of engine and that is just not so.

I agree.  I made the assumption based on his distinction regarding MAP that there was more to it than he was letting on.  I would assume that the ECM is determining injector timing based on when the MAP indicates a valve opening, and by changing where the MAP reading is being taken based on dialing in the MAP sampling to the cam timing events then the injector timing naturally follows.  Steve is the king is semantics though, and the mincing of words.  I have no doubt that the only thing that the TTS  cam timing adjustment does is change the sampling area, but to say that it affects nothing else would not be  a correct statement.  One that he never made, I would add. 

[FLTRI]

I would assume that the ECM is determining injector timing based on when the MAP indicates a valve opening,...

So injector timing is adjusted after a valve opening event?

Meaning the calibration is reactive to map values as applied to valve opening?

I believe fuel is sprayed against a closed intake valve and waits for it to open.
How important is precise timing of fueling events?

Just look at a carburetor. The fuel is drawn into the intake by a opening of a valve and the piston moving down in the bore. What shuts the fuel flow off when the valve closes? If the fuel stops it also must start back up, right? With velocity through the intake starting and stopping fueling with a carb is not possible.

Bob

[joe_lyons]

Variable timing vs. Engine speed to keep up b/c of injector reaction time but it is between tdc to 45° before.  But this is based on crank tooth signal that takes time to get transfered and interpreted.  He said no to it spraying on the back of a closed valve for stock setup.

[FLTRI]

...He said no to it spraying on the back of a closed valve for stock setup.

So when does the injector spray? Before or after the valve starts to open?
Bob

[hrdtail78]

Variable timing vs. Engine speed to keep up b/c of injector reaction time but it is between tdc to 45° before.  But this is based on crank tooth signal that takes time to get transfered and interpreted.  He said no to it spraying on the back of a closed valve for stock setup.

Now I am really confused.  Stock cams open at 2 degree BTDC.  He states it sprays from 45 BTDC to TDC.  How would that be not spraying on a closed vavle?

[Hilly13]

He did but it depends on how you look at it, like from a particular point of view, you moving the ivo dosnt directly alter injector firing timing, but with that info perhaps the ecm does? it would maybe not matter for a cam that opens close to stock but for a very early opener the benifit would be there, don't know though, only guessing and fishing.

[FSG]

I don't have an oscilloscope  

While I've a few Tektronix O'scopes to chose from I find the cheapie STINGRAY DUAL CHANNEL USB OSCILLOSCOPE gets used most of the time.

[hrdtail78]

The above stock cam I mentioned was the B.  The newer cams open at 12 ATDC.  Just to clarify.

[FLTRI]

From my d/a experiences with different race teams in their engine development programs...
What is critical is be sure the injector sprays BEFORE the valve opens.
Any later injector timing and torque takes a hit.
The earlier the duty cycle occurs before the valve opens the worse the mileage.
But no measurable affect on power.
Just some stuff I picked up working with a couple Motec EFI calibrators.
Bob

[1FSTRK]

I would assume that the ECM is determining injector timing based on when the MAP indicates a valve opening,...

So injector timing is adjusted after a valve opening event?

Meaning the calibration is reactive to map values as applied to valve opening?

I believe fuel is sprayed against a closed intake valve and waits for it to open.
How important is precise timing of fueling events?

Just look at a carburetor. The fuel is drawn into the intake by a opening of a valve and the piston moving down in the bore. What shuts the fuel flow off when the valve closes? If the fuel stops it also must start back up, right? With velocity through the intake starting and stopping fueling with a carb is not possible.

Bob

The quote you reference was not made by me, it was made by Mayor and edited by you, and does not state anything about when the injector actually sprays in relation to the intake valve position.

It is always amazing how things that are out of reach for adjustment or not fully understood are judged to be unimportant.

...or judged to be important. 
Bob

You then make the following post

From my d/a experiences with different race teams in their engine development programs...
What is critical is be sure the injector sprays BEFORE the valve opens.
Any later injector timing and torque takes a hit.
The earlier the duty cycle occurs before the valve opens the worse the mileage.
But no measurable affect on power.
Just some stuff I picked up working with a couple Motec EFI calibrators.
Bob

I guess it just come down to what someone deems to be important

[FLTRI]

1FSTRK:
"The quote you reference was not made by me, it was made by Mayor and edited by you, and does not state anything about when the injector actually sprays in relation to the intake valve position."
Sorry about that.
So does the system react to the map sensor and then open the injector?
Or does the system spray fuel onto the back of the valve and waits for the valve to open?
Bob

[joe_lyons]

Do remember that the specs that we are looking at is (.053") not seat to seat. just for "Potty mouth"s and giggles lets just say the way that i took it was at low rpm it fires off at tdc but at 6500 rpm it fires off 45 btdc to keep up with the electronic lag to fire the injector.    he did make sure to tell me that this is when it sees the signal from the crank teeth that has to run to the ecm be crunched and signal sent to injector.    Dont take my numbers and think of them as per cam timing but as REACTIVE to crank teeth.  It tries to fire on an open valve not closed.  Short track manifold cools the intake valve itself pretty well i would say but i dont know about fuel homogonization?  I hate this german key board.

[hrdtail78]

That makes some since. Talking to the man that I won't mention. My KPA theory is wrong.  We do want to spray in an open valve. The engine has time restraints because of valve opening time. So we spray on a closed valve about to open when it has to.  Interesting stuff for sure. 

[strokerjlk]

Do remember that the specs that we are looking at is (.053") not seat to seat. just for "Potty mouth"s and giggles lets just say the way that i took it was at low rpm it fires off at tdc but at 6500 rpm it fires off 45 btdc to keep up with the electronic lag to fire the injector.    he did make sure to tell me that this is when it sees the signal from the crank teeth that has to run to the ecm be crunched and signal sent to injector.    Dont take my numbers and think of them as per cam timing but as REACTIVE to crank teeth.  It tries to fire on an open valve not closed.  Short track manifold cools the intake valve itself pretty well i would say but i dont know about fuel homogonization?  I hate this german key board.

[Hilly13]

Makes sense that as the revs go up the firing command gets earlier to compenste for lag times but does the ecm monitor the valve with map at all or does it rely purely on the math?

[rbabos]

Makes sense that as the revs go up the firing command gets earlier to compenste for lag times but does the ecm monitor the valve with map at all or does it rely purely on the math?

I'd bet on math based on cps and rpms. Map would be too spastic.
Ron

[Hilly13]

Makes sense that as the revs go up the firing command gets earlier to compenste for lag times but does the ecm monitor the valve with map at all or does it rely purely on the math?

I'd bet on math based on cps and rpms. Map would be too spastic.
Ron

Good word for it Ron so when we do the IVO analysis that resulting number whatever it may be must get used in some way in the ecm calcs for firing the injectors or what would be the point?

[FLTRI]

must get used in some way in the ecm calcs for firing the injectors or what would be the point?

So V-Tune is used for lower KPAs.
Bob

[Hilly13]

Whatever that cam setting does it is important somehow as Steve said many times, get it done first as it is laying the foundation for the tune, anyhoo it can't hurt even if it "aint necessary".

[joe_lyons]

Good word for it Ron so when we do the IVO analysis that resulting number whatever it may be must get used in some way in the ecm calcs for firing the injectors or what would be the point?
[/quote]

For the proper time to sample the MAP so that our ecm is in line with more a true engine MAP or with what the engine is happy with.

[Hilly13]

Good word for it Ron so when we do the IVO analysis that resulting number whatever it may be must get used in some way in the ecm calcs for firing the injectors or what would be the point?

For the proper time to sample the MAP so that our ecm is in line with more a true engine MAP or with what the engine is happy with.
[/quote]

Thanks for that Joe

[Admiral Akbar]

There seems to be a lot of miss information here.. It would be nice to see what is really going on.. Might take a Sillyscope to see..

For 1 MAP is not used to find compression stoke.. Crankslowing is.. Or is you want Crank dV/dT.   BTW I used to think that the MAP was used..

How do you sample the MAP to get true map?    Pretty funny.. Map is always changing in a big twin. The software might want to sample the map at a particular time in the intake cycle. Some seem to think overlap.. Why wouldn't it be at BDC to help estimate cylinder fill? Might want to rock the sample point back and forth a little based on the cam..   I don't know.. Bet Cole does..

Injector timing.. Might be worth while to start before the intake valve opens. Might Not.. What about at 6000 RPM? If the injector PW is 20 ms, it's basically on all the time.. Intake valve opened and closed.. Fuel has to be hitting the back of a closed valve before it opens and after it closes..  I wonder how the closed loop systems work at high RPM under these conditions.. Say the injector timing is 90%.. It's surly feeding the other cylinder some... Seems like adding fuel would add to the other cylinder.. So what happens to the closed loop?

If putting down the road at 3K rpm.. (night be hard for some of the bagger folks..  ) , The injector PW may only be 6-8 milliseconds.. The intake valve could be open for say 270 deg seat to seat (not 0.053 lift).. That would be 15 milliseconds.. Why not spray based on the center of the intake duration?

Max

[wurk_truk]

MAP is used along with crank slowing to find start up, Max, at least that's how it was just explained to me.

[Admiral Akbar]

MAP is used along with crank slowing to find start up, Max, at least that's how it was just explained to me.

Well, whomever explained it to you was probably wrong.. Who said this? Why is it that the plugs need to be installed in the heads for spark to occur?  Why is it that some easy start SnS cams kill spark on low compression motors?

Max

[ultraswede]

Why is it that some easy start SnS cams kill spark on low compression motors?

Maybe this, in the quote below;

MAP is used along with crank slowing to find start up

[wurk_truk]

You are right...  HAHA!  ALONG with is correct.  Along with the CPS is MAP AND crank slowing.  All three.

You can probably figure out who told me... the guy with NO name.  After you, Max, posted, I talked at length about this subject.  I will not comment on the OP, but just wished to tell YOU it is all three.  Just like it will not fire without compression...  no spark... it will ALSO not fire with no MAP signal right before saying the valve opened.

To the OP, I will say one thing....  cam tool doesn't matter after about 2500 rpms and the injector IS on all the time after a certain point.  At idle, the injector runs at 8 hz and at 5000 rpms, the injector runs at 50 hz.  An injector cannot operate at 50hz.... it is simply ON.  The HZ is the same for the O2s, IIRC, haha!

[Coyote]

No mention of MAP being used in this explanation.

http://books.google.com/books?id=u66TFTLWJ-IC&pg=PA453&lpg=PA453&dq=harley+efi+cylinder+synchronization&source=bl&ots=1LJ5NL0aBz&sig=Cw6QbSjZ0g0deV0UvPCpK30IhbI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=10qaUar2OcHgiwL2yIDoAg&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=harley%20efi%20cylinder%20synchronization&f=false

[wurk_truk]

Hmmmmmmm

[Coyote]

Yeah, I know. 

[bigblock6912]

tmax has a injector timing feature now. is that related to all this conversation?

[FSG]

No mention of MAP being used in this explanation.

Well that's not surprising considering that MAP isn't used, crank slowing is used by itself.   But then again the level of crap in some of those articles and explanations perhaps he should mention MAP.   

[Coyote]

No mention of MAP being used in this explanation.

Well that's not surprising considering that MAP isn't used, crank slowing is used by itself.   But then again the level of crap in some of those articles and explanations perhaps he should mention MAP.   

Yes I figured out today that MAP is not involved in starting based on the debug procedure in the Electrical Diag Manual. Just more misinformation.

[Admiral Akbar]

tmax has a injector timing feature now. is that related to all this conversation?

Way cool.. They did it for smartlinkIV.. Last I heard they were only going to do it for TMAXI Tuner.. Not sure it is related tho.. Dan F tweaked a couple of maps for me.. Helped a bunch with light cruise and getting it leaned out without a hesitation.

Max

[strokerjlk]

tmax has a injector timing feature now. is that related to all this conversation?

Way cool.. They did it for smartlinkIV.. Last I heard they were only going to do it for TMAXI Tuner.. Not sure it is related tho.. Dan F tweaked a couple of maps for me.. Helped a bunch with light cruise and getting it leaned out without a hesitation.

Max

How lean? And what rpm / map /tp is cruise ?
What timing ?
Your 07 bagger ? 

[Admiral Akbar]

tmax has a injector timing feature now. is that related to all this conversation?

Way cool.. They did it for smartlinkIV.. Last I heard they were only going to do it for TMAXI Tuner.. Not sure it is related tho.. Dan F tweaked a couple of maps for me.. Helped a bunch with light cruise and getting it leaned out without a hesitation.

Max

How lean? And what rpm / map /tp is cruise ?
What timing ?
Your 07 bagger ? 

On the 07 bagger and on the 02 RK Both had the problem.. The RK was only real slight.. Kind felt like a lean surge..   On the EGC I had 0 problems until I installed a 55mm HPI TB with large injectors.  It started hesitating real bad at light cruise.. I pulled the injectors and installed the stock ones.. Problem much better but still there.. Richen things up and it got better.. Mileage tanked..  I talked to Dan at the Expo and he had me send him the maps.  Fixed both of them..

For the EGC it was mainly 20 deg to 30 deg tps, 2500 to 3300.. Currently it's set to 13.8 afr in that region..   Timing is 38 to 40 from 15 to 22 TPS then it starts to retard down to about 30 at 30 deg tps..  FWIW I think I can lean out the cruise a little more but its running great.

Ask TweekMyTwin about which bike was running better in Death Valley.. 

Max

[mayor]

tmax has a injector timing feature now. is that related to all this conversation?

Way cool.. They did it for smartlinkIV..

where do I find that in the software?  I updated my software last night, but don't see that any where.   

[strokerjlk]

tmax has a injector timing feature now. is that related to all this conversation?

Way cool.. They did it for smartlinkIV.. Last I heard they were only going to do it for TMAXI Tuner.. Not sure it is related tho.. Dan F tweaked a couple of maps for me.. Helped a bunch with light cruise and getting it leaned out without a hesitation.

Max

How lean? And what rpm / map /tp is cruise ?
What timing ?
Your 07 bagger ? 

On the 07 bagger and on the 02 RK Both had the problem.. The RK was only real slight.. Kind felt like a lean surge..   On the EGC I had 0 problems until I installed a 55mm HPI TB with large injectors.  It started hesitating real bad at light cruise.. I pulled the injectors and installed the stock ones.. Problem much better but still there.. Richen things up and it got better.. Mileage tanked..  I talked to Dan at the Expo and he had me send him the maps.  Fixed both of them..

For the EGC it was mainly 20 deg to 30 deg tps, 2500 to 3300.. Currently it's set to 13.8 afr in that region..   Timing is 38 to 40 from 15 to 22 TPS then it starts to retard down to about 30 at 30 deg tps..  FWIW I think I can lean out the cruise a little more but its running great.

Ask TweekMyTwin about which bike was running better in Death Valley.. 

Max

Thanks
makes sense to me . 40 deg at 22 % is that ok all the time ?
Like when your climbing a grade , and a gear to high?
Back to injectors .
Maybe try the bigger injectors again, of you get some free time .

[TweekmyTwin]

Ask TweekMyTwin about which bike was running better in Death Valley.. 

Yup.. Kicked my ass all the way back to the cabin... Heavy drinking was in order. 
I had some pinging issues due to a head gasket failure, now I just need to get back to Bob
Jim

[FSG]

Just more misinformation

Yes, such a shame some prefer never letting the truth interfere with a good story.

[Admiral Akbar]

Ask TweekMyTwin about which bike was running better in Death Valley.. 

Yup.. Kicked my ass all the way back to the cabin... Heavy drinking was in order. 
I had some pinging issues due to a head gasket failure, now I just need to get back to Bob
Jim

As I remember the head gasket issue was all Keith's fault..    (after all you were supplying the whiskey..  )

Thanks
makes sense to me . 40 deg at 22 % is that ok all the time ?
Like when your climbing a grade , and a gear to high?
Back to injectors .
Maybe try the bigger injectors again, of you get some free time .

One thing to note is that for some reason real 0 TPS, throttle off, is about 12 deg TPS on the TMAX.. When climbing a grade, the only way to get 22% (deg) would be to have one heck of a tail wind.. It ends up in the 30% range.. The Speed density systems do a better job of optimizing for load but in the end, I don't think it's more than say 1 MPG per tank when compared to Alpha N.. The thing is that MPG is probably generating a bit of hydrocarbons which the EPA don't like..

BTW, I've got a dial on the throttle spindle that is calibrated to TPS/ECM to make make sure I know where the TPS is at..

Max

[strokerjlk]

One thing to note is that for some reason real 0 TPS, throttle off, is about 12 deg TPS on the TMAX.. When climbing a grade, the only way to get 22% (deg) would be to have one heck of a tail wind..

I see . Makes more sense now .
Where in the world did you find a head gasket for a Vespa , in Death Valley ?

[Coyote]

As I remember the head gasket issue was all Keith's fault..    (after all you were supplying the whiskey..  )

Oh, that's cold man! 

[Eleft36]

tmax has a injector timing feature now. is that related to all this conversation?

Way cool.. They did it for smartlinkIV..

where do I find that in the software?  I updated my software last night, but don't see that any where.   

Basic Settings, it's not covered in the manual. Don't know how the #s are figured. This map 876 differs from 865, 392 vs 400.  392 has the header glowing and pipes carbon-ed up 400 doesn't do either..?? Intake noise louder @ 392 also..??
Al
oops! corrected transposed 67 to 76 ; correct map # is 876

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[mayor]

thanks Al     I just the maps that I was using with my 88"/95" RK and all were at 400°.   I hope they cover that at some point in the manual, to explain how that works and what changing it does.   

[Admiral Akbar]

I've got maps both before and after Dan's modifications..

The original shows 400 deg and the new map shows 364 on both maps.. Almost all the way to the other end of the setting..

Al,
One thing you might want to do when changing the injector timing is readjust the ignition timing some and back off the the AFR.. Sounds like the motor might be a little retarded (glowing red pipe) and it's showing up when you change the injector timing... You can also pull fuel and pick up on mileage.

FWIW I didn't see any difference in the exhaust color going from 400 to 364 but I've been able to lean out the maps at partial throttle and squeeze some more mileage out of the EGC.. My 02 RKC I've not done much cept ride it.. It runs better.

I'm guessing but suspect it number is injector pulse timing in degrees from TDC compression stroke or possibly the ignition event..

Max

[rbabos]

So, you guys saying with plugs out and a vacumn applied to the MAP sensor from a secondary source it will not spark? Huh?
Ron

[ViennaHog]

Take both plugs out and crank any Delphi-equipped TC and there is no spark.

[Eleft36]

I've got maps both before and after Dan's modifications..

The original shows 400 deg and the new map shows 364 on both maps.. Almost all the way to the other end of the setting..

Al,
One thing you might want to do when changing the injector timing is readjust the ignition timing some and back off the the AFR.. Sounds like the motor might be a little retarded (glowing red pipe) and it's showing up when you change the injector timing... You can also pull fuel and pick up on mileage.

FWIW I didn't see any difference in the exhaust color going from 400 to 364 but I've been able to lean out the maps at partial throttle and squeeze some more mileage out of the EGC.. My 02 RKC I've not done much cept ride it.. It runs better.

I'm guessing but suspect it number is injector pulse timing in degrees from TDC compression stroke or possibly the ignition event..

Max

Bruce,
I changed from 865 to 876 because the fuel curve is farther out and the timing is ahead. Let's say it looks better.
  I left the 876 and changed injector timing back to the 865 setting of 400 and it seems fine. Not many miles on the 876 map, I only put 20 on @ 392 timing; right thigh really felt the heat quickly. 876 map seems to use a lighter throttle it idles good no ping or pops and I added some pulse fuel to start quicker. Mufflers sound lower pitched. Exhaust is from a CVO Softail Convertible and still has cats, quiet enough to hear the intake.
The 865 mileage was a constant 39+ and ran descent, with the ign timing and slightly leaner afr I'm expecting a little better from map 876.

Al
PS had 67 & 76 transposed; oops    --- corrected to 876

[Admiral Akbar]

Bruce,
I changed from 865 to 876 because the fuel curve is farther out and the timing is ahead. Let's say it looks better.
  I left the 876 and changed injector timing back to the 865 setting of 400 and it seems fine. Not many miles on the 876 map, I only put 20 on @ 392 timing; right thigh really felt the heat quickly. 876 map seems to use a lighter throttle it idles good no ping or pops and I added some pulse fuel to start quicker. Mufflers sound lower pitched. Exhaust is from a CVO Softail Convertible and still has cats, quiet enough to hear the intake.
The 865 mileage was a constant 39+ and ran descent, with the ign timing and slightly leaner afr I'm expecting a little better from map 876.

Al
PS had 67 & 76 transposed; oops    --- corrected to 876

Al,
I'm not sure what you are saying about AFR being further out.. As far as I can tell the 2 maps have the same AFR table.. You can use control-q to copy all the tables from map to another then compare old to new in one table after resetting the markers.. Timing is different but not too far off.. The newer table has more low throttle timing than the other at higher rpm.. Might stop some decel popping but usually the throttle needs to be open wider (less timing) do do anything under load.

Max

[Eleft36]

Bruce,
I changed from 865 to 876 because the fuel curve is farther out and the timing is ahead. Let's say it looks better.
  I left the 876 and changed injector timing back to the 865 setting of 400 and it seems fine. Not many miles on the 876 map, I only put 20 on @ 392 timing; right thigh really felt the heat quickly. 876 map seems to use a lighter throttle it idles good no ping or pops and I added some pulse fuel to start quicker. Mufflers sound lower pitched. Exhaust is from a CVO Softail Convertible and still has cats, quiet enough to hear the intake.
The 865 mileage was a constant 39+ and ran descent, with the ign timing and slightly leaner afr I'm expecting a little better from map 876.

Al
PS had 67 & 76 transposed; oops    --- corrected to 876

Al,
I'm not sure what you are saying about AFR being further out.. As far as I can tell the 2 maps have the same AFR table.. You can use control-q to copy all the tables from map to another then compare old to new in one table after resetting the markers.. Timing is different but not too far off.. The newer table has more low throttle timing than the other at higher rpm.. Might stop some decel popping but usually the throttle needs to be open wider (less timing) do do anything under load.

Max

Thanks for the "q" tip; here's the screen shot of 865 afr with the 876 afr pasted. It's what I mentioned as farther out, in tps #s.
Neither map had any popping.
Al
Al

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[rbabos]

Take both plugs out and crank any Delphi-equipped TC and there is no spark.

There is also no MAP signal with the plugs out due to the pistons not being able to pull vacumn. I have a problem buying the crank slowing theory at 9k on a v rod.
Ron

[ultraswede]

I have a problem buying the crank slowing theory at 9k on a v rod.

Crank slowing we are discusing here is for determining which cylinder is at compression during cranking for start up.

[FLTRI]

...
Crank slowing we are discusing here is for determining which cylinder is at compression during cranking for start up.

Yep, along with CPS.
Bob

[Coyote]

Take both plugs out and crank any Delphi-equipped TC and there is no spark.

There is also no MAP signal with the plugs out due to the pistons not being able to pull vacumn. I have a problem buying the crank slowing theory at 9k on a v rod.
Ron

I think it's only relevant on startup. After that, the ECM knows which cycle it's on.

[Admiral Akbar]

Take both plugs out and crank any Delphi-equipped TC and there is no spark.

There is also no MAP signal with the plugs out due to the pistons not being able to pull vacumn. I have a problem buying the crank slowing theory at 9k on a v rod.
Ron

Lets see.

9000 rpm = 150 rev / sec 

30 slots + 2 for the missing slots is 4800 slots per second.. Lets call it 5000 slots per second.. or 1/5000 = 200 us / slot..

Don't you think that a good micro processor could easily differentiate a 198 us slot from a 202 us slot in real time?  Most of these guys that are not super power savers (battery operated) have cores that run in the 100 Mhz range and execute instructions in the 50 MHZ range easily..

Technically it's probably 2 pulses per slot but they could also measure the time for say 3-5 slots throw a little filtering in there for good measure..

Max

Add.. us = microsecond..

Max

[wurk_truk]

Take both plugs out and crank any Delphi-equipped TC and there is no spark.

There is also no MAP signal with the plugs out due to the pistons not being able to pull vacumn. I have a problem buying the crank slowing theory at 9k on a v rod.
Ron

I think it's only relevant on startup. After that, the ECM knows which cycle it's on.

I agree.  Once it knows..... it knows until engine is shut off.  All of that is for the ECM to figure out which CPS signal is the correct one.  No name said EFI bikes with Delphi uses the MAP to help with crank slowing to determine which tooth to use on the CPS, fo start up.  Who knows?  They start.

After a point the injectors will be one the whole time anyways.  I was told that cam tool, for example only really works up to like 2500ish rpms anyways.  That SOUNDS like (but guessing) that is around where the injectors start to be almost always ON.?  AT 3000 rpms, the injector is fired 25 times a second.  Somewhere, there will be a deal where the injector is for all intents and purposes ON.  There IS some lag inherent, due to it is an electrical/mechanical device and the actual plunger will not be able to keep up with the signals.  Where that point is?  I have no clue.  but at 1000 rpms, the injector is firing at only a little over 8 times a second.

Either when the injector fires is not really important, or there is some kind of software thing in the ECM, using all the various sensors, that tells when to fire.  How else can we swap all of the various cams, and the bike still runs great?  AND... there is the shared plenum thing.  NOT like a car at all in that regards.  Can't swap spit in a car.  6in runners and all of that really separates the fuel better.

No Name reiterated that the 'cam tool' does NOT alter fuel timing, so...  we can all guess a bunch but never know.  Wish FBRR was still around.  It IS an interesting question.

[FSG]

No name said EFI bikes with Delphi uses the MAP to help with crank slowing to determine which tooth to use on the CPS, fo start up.  Who knows?  They start.

Really, which tooth to use on the CPS!!!!     More misinformation.

The CPS is a sensor, actually the "Crank Position Sensor" and last time I looked it didn't have any teeth.   On the other hand the Crankshaft has teeth, 2 of which are missing so that when the ECM receives the string of pulses from the CPS it knows where the Crankshaft is within the rotation.

Pull the plugs and hit the starter.  The ECM receives the CPS signal so it knows the crank is turning and it knows it's position but it doesn't know what stroke it's on.  Release the starter button, put the plugs back in and hit the starter again.  Now from the CPS signal  the ECM can see the crank slowing as #1 comes up on compression. 

[rbabos]

Take both plugs out and crank any Delphi-equipped TC and there is no spark.

There is also no MAP signal with the plugs out due to the pistons not being able to pull vacumn. I have a problem buying the crank slowing theory at 9k on a v rod.
Ron

Lets see.

9000 rpm = 150 rev / sec 

30 slots + 2 for the missing slots is 4800 slots per second.. Lets call it 5000 slots per second.. or 1/5000 = 200 us / slot..

Don't you think that a good micro processor could easily differentiate a 198 us slot from a 202 us slot in real time?  Most of these guys that are not super power savers (battery operated) have cores that run in the 100 Mhz range and execute instructions in the 50 MHZ range easily..

Technically it's probably 2 pulses per slot but they could also measure the time for say 3-5 slots throw a little filtering in there for good measure..

Max

Add.. us = microsecond..

Max

Well, I can't argue with the logic here.
Ron

[FLTRI]

So when does the injector fire in relation to the valve opening event?
Before or after the valve opens?
Bob

[ultraswede]

A long thread where we actually can measure and settle the discussion.

Anyone with the time and a oscilloscope?

[Rider57]

I have the scope and the time but, which cam?

[ultraswede]

If one knows the ignition advance at any given time (logging or setting the ignition to 0 degree in the cal for testing purpose ), and relate that event to the opening/close of the injector for that cylinder, we have our answer.
Measuring on two channels is of cause necessary in this case.

[FLTRI]

I have the scope and the time but, which cam?

I guess you can pick one or two...say stock vs SE260 vs TW9f...or anything else will do.
Thanks,
Bob

[wurk_truk]

Duh!  And the ECM HAS to pick which missing tooth then, right?  I kind of figured we would ALL know how a CPS and the teeth work.  So, this is no fun and have at it.  I see how it's going.  Misinformation?  How is picking which tooth misinformation?  Thats what crank slowing does, right?  Pick the 'tooth'.  Next time I will be way more specific.  GEEZE!  Pure semantics. AND...  Playing with them is foolish and demeaning to me.  I don't feel I deserve that, either.

I have a scope, but NO way... whatever it is I post is wrong.

[FLTRI]

So we still have no agreement as to when the injector fires (before or after valve opens)?

Bob

[Rider57]

The injector fires on a closed valve. Unless someone really screws up installing the cams. Always has, probably always will until DI is used on Harleys.

[FLTRI]

The injector fires on a closed valve. Unless someone really screws up installing the cams. Always has, probably always will until DI is used on Harleys.

thought so    BWTFDWK?
Funny how some feel it can't happen that way. Lol
Bob

[Admiral Akbar]

The injector fires on a closed valve. Unless someone really screws up installing the cams. Always has, probably always will until DI is used on Harleys.

So you checked it with the scope?

Max

[rbabos]

The injector fires on a closed valve. Unless someone really screws up installing the cams. Always has, probably always will until DI is used on Harleys.

So you checked it with the scope?

Max

Don't think it would pass EPA any other way. Fuel needs to hit the hot valve to vaporize it the most it can. Just my usual uneducated guess.
Ron

[Rider57]

Yes, it has been checked with a scope, here in the shop and while I worked for the EPA.

[ultraswede]

Yes, it has been checked with a scope, here in the shop and while I worked for the EPA.

[Admiral Akbar]

Yes, it has been checked with a scope, here in the shop and while I worked for the EPA.

I assume you use the CPS to determine the position of the crank and a spark plug wire to figure out which cylinder fired..  Where is the gap located in referenced to TDC on the rear cylinder??

Max

[ultraswede]

An easier way, as I feel, would be to monitor the spark event and compare that with the injector opening.
We know when the spark fires, for example at TDC or 20 deg BTDC (or whatever), compare that event with the injector opening for same cyl and we have our answer.

[FSG]

Where is the gap located in referenced to TDC on the rear cylinder??

Some rough calcs I put the start of the Sync Gap being detected at 90° BTDC.

When I get time I'll put a Digital Scope on the CKP and #1 Plug Lead.

[Rider57]

Yes, it has been checked with a scope, here in the shop and while I worked for the EPA.

I assume you use the CPS to determine the position of the crank and a spark plug wire to figure out which cylinder fired..  Where is the gap located in referenced to TDC on the rear cylinder??

Max

90* BTDC, not spark as that varies with timing.
I did find some variation with the cams used as to when the injector fires.
Correctly, the injector fire at the same time every time.
Remember, its the cam that opens the valve early or late.

Guess is should have scrolled down. FSG got it already.

[Admiral Akbar]

Yes, it has been checked with a scope, here in the shop and while I worked for the EPA.

I assume you use the CPS to determine the position of the crank and a spark plug wire to figure out which cylinder fired..  Where is the gap located in referenced to TDC on the rear cylinder??

Max

90* BTDC, not spark as that varies with timing.
I did find some variation with the cams used as to when the injector fires.
Correctly, the injector fire at the same time every time.
Remember, its the cam that opens the valve early or late.

Guess is should have scrolled down. FSG got it already.

You additional info was helpful.. Wonder how the injector figured out how to fire at different times based on the cam.. Were these stock ECMs? Different for each cam?

Thanks,
Max

[FLTRI]

...Wonder how the injector figured out how to fire at different times based on the cam.. Were these stock ECMs? Different for each cam?

Thanks,
Max

HD can tailor injector timing for stock calibrations for difference cam timing (ie: CVO bikes, Vrods, and Sportsters).
Again, IME what IS important is to get the spray started before the valve opens BWTFDIK?
Bob

[Rider57]

Yes, it has been checked with a scope, here in the shop and while I worked for the EPA.

I assume you use the CPS to determine the position of the crank and a spark plug wire to figure out which cylinder fired..  Where is the gap located in referenced to TDC on the rear cylinder??

Max

90* BTDC, not spark as that varies with timing.
I did find some variation with the cams used as to when the injector fires.
Correctly, the injector fire at the same time every time.
Remember, its the cam that opens the valve early or late.

Guess is should have scrolled down. FSG got it already.

You additional info was helpful.. Wonder how the injector figured out how to fire at different times based on the cam.. Were these stock ECMs? Different for each cam?

Thanks,
Max

Stock ecm and cams. I have seen cams designed to open at a much earlier time, upto 3* before the valve opens.
Measuring the cams, I have found some to start opening at .08 rather than the standard .53.
Be aware, the stock cams vary greatly, even in the same engine (96, 88).
Depends on who is running the grinder and the attention to detail.

[strokerjlk]

Depends on who is running the grinder and the attention to detail.

And how often the tooling is changed .

[Admiral Akbar]

Measuring the cams, I have found some to start opening at .08 rather than the standard .53.

Funny I though all valves start opening at 0.. what is 0.08 versus .53?

Max

[Rider57]

Measuring the cams, I have found some to start opening at .08 rather than the standard .53.

Funny I though all valves start opening at 0.. what is 0.08 versus .53?

Max

Purest use 0* the rest of us use .53 . I am referring all readings against the .53 standard.
A cam opening at 8* is borderline drag strip stuff. Not healthy for a street machine.

[1FSTRK]

...Wonder how the injector figured out how to fire at different times based on the cam.. Were these stock ECMs? Different for each cam?

Thanks,
Max

HD can tailor injector timing for stock calibrations for difference cam timing (ie: CVO bikes, Vrods, and Sportsters).
Again, IME what IS important is to get the spray started before the valve opens BWTFDIK?
Bob

Are you saying that is what they DO?

[Admiral Akbar]

Measuring the cams, I have found some to start opening at .08 rather than the standard .53.

Funny I though all valves start opening at 0.. what is 0.08 versus .53?

Max

Purest use 0* the rest of us use .53 . I am referring all readings against the .53 standard.
A cam opening at 8* is borderline drag strip stuff. Not healthy for a street machine.

I suspect that you mean 0.053 not 0.53.. Some valves don't lift that high.. Now the 0.053 lift is really a tappet lift or a valve lift of 0.086. At you saying the some like to fire with a tappet lit of 0.08 and a valve lift of 0.13 inches.. Seems like in that case the piston has already started the down the intake stroke on a smog cam and in reality the valve has been open for some time. 

Bob you were saying that the injector needs to fire before the valve is open.  Were you saying that the valve is on the seat or were you saying it need to fire before the cam timing reference point?

Max

[FLTRI]

Bob you were saying that the injector needs to fire before the valve is open.  Were you saying that the valve is on the seat or were you saying it need to fire before the cam timing reference point?

Max

I believe the most important point is to be sure the injector fires before the valve opens.
Not sure how important actual injector timing is other than low rpms, though.
Bob

[Sonny S.]

<<Not sure how important actual injector timing is other than low rpms>>

I'm thinking the same thing.
Tomorrow I'm going to change the injector timing on my TMAX map to see if it smoothes out light throttle, low rpm areas. The injector timing in my old map is different than the same map after software update.
If it improves, then I would assume that even at higher rpm's it would make a difference.

[FLTRI]

You go Sonny!!
Let us know what you find.
Bob

[Admiral Akbar]

From my d/a experiences with different race teams in their engine development programs...
What is critical is be sure the injector sprays BEFORE the valve opens.
Any later injector timing and torque takes a hit.
The earlier the duty cycle occurs before the valve opens the worse the mileage.
But no measurable affect on power.
Just some stuff I picked up working with a couple Motec EFI calibrators.
Bob

Wanted to bring this back up to the front as I there is some stuff I'm a little confused about..

Not sure how important actual injector timing is other than low rpms

And this.. Ok from what I read..  Firing the injector before valve opens is important for low end torque production but go too far earlier and mileage suffers.. Is this what you are trying to say? 

Is injector timing worth messing with on a Dyno?

Max

Add

And when you are comparing timing, the reference point is when the valve comes off the seat not the spec lift?

Max

[FLTRI]

...Firing the injector before valve opens is important for low end torque production but go too far earlier and mileage suffers.. Is this what you are trying to say?
And when you are comparing timing, the reference point is when the valve comes off the seat not the spec lift?

Max

Fire the injector after the valve comes off the seat may be ok for low rpms but is not anywhere near soon enough for high rpms. Fire the injector too early and torque is lost as well as mileage.
Bob

[Rider57]

FLTRI is correct and it is not an assumption.
.053 is the tappet movement area. At .075 to .088 is where you should have valve movement
The different numbers come from rockers not manufactured to blueprint along with sluggish lifters.
Like they say "Perfect is not always the best as the best is most often not good enough".
Fire the injector on a closed valve and you get the torque at higher rpm. Fire the injector at low rpm and most often you get a lumpy idle.

[Sonny S.]

95" TW37 cams. I changed my injector timing from 400 to 392. It does feel smoother ( not perfect ) at light throttle low rpm. 2nd gear, 2K rpm's.
Fuel offsets show that the system was removing fuel. Time will tell where it ends up as the system adjusts AFR.
I don't know that 392 is gonna be the magic number but I'm going to work with it for now.

Not a scientific study but it's all I got 

[Sonny S.]

Max it looks like my results are about the same as yours after your injector timing was changed. I've had a " lean surge " feel at light throttle.

[joe_lyons]

Altering injector timing will be a thing of the future for different cams.  With Delphi ecm of course.

[Admiral Akbar]

Altering injector timing will be a thing of the future for different cams.  With Delphi ecm of course.

It's here now for Tmax..   

Max it looks like my results are about the same as yours after your injector timing was changed. I've had a " lean surge " feel at light throttle.

The new map I got from zippers has the injector timing set at 364.. If I figure right that is 4 deg BTDC on the exhaust stroke.. Intake on the 2 cams I use is 18 and 22 so the injectors are firing late.. Not sure how much it is killing power but the partial throttle surge is completely gone.. Might be better to set it to about 380 and see how it does.. Both of my original maps were set at 400 deg. Both bikes had a "lean surge". You could reduce it by adding fuel.. Not sure I understand that tho.. Maybe fuel puddling and blowing right through the motor so it needed more fuel? Mileage would drop.. Understand that.. 

My EGC did not have any problems at until I added an HPI55 TP with bigger injectors.. Changing the injectors back to stock helped a great deal but it was still there.. I need to go back and try the bigger ones again..

Max

[TXP]

Max, most of the maps are set to fire between 360 and 400. I had one that was sort of Frankenstein build and the surge at 2000 to 2400 RPM's was unbearable. No amount of changing anything in the advanced software would take it away. So what we done while I was at TMax in April was to slow down the O2 sampling rate. The engine congig was pulling fresh air back up the pipe and the sensor saw lean and would add then remove,,,viscous cycle. The ability to change O2 sampling rate is only available in the "engineering software" they use in house. Anyway after we made the change I installed the map in my problem bike and vola,,,problem solved. If you still have this issue ask the tech at TMax support if this adjustment might help you. Send them a data log along with your request and see if it'll help.

[Hilly13]

Max, most of the maps are set to fire between 360 and 400. I had one that was sort of Frankenstein build and the surge at 2000 to 2400 RPM's was unbearable. No amount of changing anything in the advanced software would take it away. So what we done while I was at TMax in April was to slow down the O2 sampling rate. The engine congig was pulling fresh air back up the pipe and the sensor saw lean and would add then remove,,,viscous cycle. The ability to change O2 sampling rate is only available in the "engineering software" they use in house. Anyway after we made the change I installed the map in my problem bike and vola,,,problem solved. If you still have this issue ask the tech at TMax support if this adjustment might help you. Send them a data log along with your request and see if it'll help.

That's interesting, was it only in that problem area the 02 sample rate was changed?

[TXP]

No. The O2 sampling rate is changed,,,slowed down a little,,,,everywhere. This was an unusual build, and the bike owner had also modified the D & D exhaust. The TMax engineer and I were just talking and throwing around ideas and decided to give this a try. We built two maps a 360 and a 400, the 400 with slightly slower sampling done the trick. I might add the guys at ThunderHeart were a pleasure to work with. As we all know, every issue can not be fixed with a tune or tuning product, but those guys work hard to make it is right as they can. There is a tech meeting every morning where all the problem issues are looked at, data logs reviewed by techs, and by an engineer. Its really a slick operation. Tech support was moved in house at ThunderHeart only a short time back.

[Hilly13]

 

[Admiral Akbar]

No. The O2 sampling rate is changed,,,slowed down a little,,,,everywhere. This was an unusual build, and the bike owner had also modified the D & D exhaust. The TMax engineer and I were just talking and throwing around ideas and decided to give this a try. We built two maps a 360 and a 400, the 400 with slightly slower sampling done the trick. I might add the guys at ThunderHeart were a pleasure to work with. As we all know, every issue can not be fixed with a tune or tuning product, but those guys work hard to make it is right as they can. There is a tech meeting every morning where all the problem issues are looked at, data logs reviewed by techs, and by an engineer. Its really a slick operation. Tech support was moved in house at ThunderHeart only a short time back.

Interesting.. I asked Dan a little over a year ago if the O2 sampling was synchronized to the exhaust stroke.. Seems like it should be. He never got back to me.. Seems to me that slowing the sampling shouldn't make much difference. Synchronizing might be more important.. They may have changed the rate in some manner that sampling at the wrong time occurred less..

Either way.. I was just playing with the EGC and the new Smartlink requires updated Firmware which may include a different sample rate?

Max

[Admiral Akbar]

Either way.. I was just playing with the EGC and the new Smartlink requires updated Firmware which may include a different sample rate?

Max

For some reason both bikes had outdated firmware..    Not sure why as I usually check firmware revision every time the SW get updated.. It might have been due to it not being needed but this time it said it was..

Max

[Eleft36]

tmax has a injector timing feature now. is that related to all this conversation?

Way cool.. They did it for smartlinkIV..

where do I find that in the software?  I updated my software last night, but don't see that any where.   

Basic Settings, it's not covered in the manual. Don't know how the #s are figured. This map 876 differs from 865, 392 vs 400.  392 has the header glowing and pipes carbon-ed up 400 doesn't do either..?? Intake noise louder @ 392 also..??
Al

Yes on the 400 setting; Last Sunday's ride(220mi) mileage was better @ 41. Lot's of offsets both ways.
Al

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[Eleft36]

tmax has a injector timing feature now. is that related to all this conversation?

I've got maps both before and after Dan's modifications..

The original shows 400 deg and the new map shows 364 on both maps.. Almost all the way to the other end of the setting..

Al,
One thing you might want to do when changing the injector timing is readjust the ignition timing some and back off the the AFR.. Sounds like the motor might be a little retarded (glowing red pipe) and it's showing up when you change the injector timing... You can also pull fuel and pick up on mileage.

FWIW I didn't see any difference in the exhaust color going from 400 to 364 but I've been able to lean out the maps at partial throttle and squeeze some more mileage out of the EGC.. My 02 RKC I've not done much cept ride it.. It runs better.

I'm guessing but suspect it number is injector pulse timing in degrees from TDC compression stroke or possibly the ignition event..

Max

Bruce,
I changed from 865 to 876 because the fuel curve is farther out and the timing is ahead. Let’s say it looks better.
  I left the 876 and changed injector timing back to the 865 setting of 400 and it seems fine. Not many miles on the 876 map, I only put 20 on @ 392 timing; right thigh really felt the heat quickly. 876 map seems to use a lighter throttle it idles good no ping or pops and I added some pulse fuel to start quicker. Mufflers sound lower pitched. Exhaust is from a CVO Softail Convertible and still has cats, quiet enough to hear the intake.
The 865 mileage was a constant 39+ and ran descent, with the ign timing and slightly leaner afr I’m expecting a little better from map 876.

Al

Way cool.. They did it for smartlinkIV..

where do I find that in the software?  I updated my software last night, but don't see that any where.   

Basic Settings, it's not covered in the manual. Don't know how the #s are figured. This map 876 differs from 865, 392 vs 400.  392 has the header glowing and pipes carbon-ed up 400 doesn't do either..?? Intake noise louder @ 392 also..??
Al

Yes on the 400 setting; Last Sunday's ride(220mi) mileage was better @ 41. Lot's of offsets both ways.
Al

[Sonny S.]

What cams ?

[Eleft36]

What cams ?

103" SE BB, Andrews 26H's, 2010 CVO 110" mufflers with cats & head pipes , K&N filter.

Al

[Sonny S.]

Ok in 95" motors TW 26's use 400 injector timing.
I don't have access to maps right now but is it different in 103's ?

[Admiral Akbar]

Yes on the 400 setting; Last Sunday's ride(220mi) mileage was better @ 41. Lot's of offsets both ways.
Al

So what did you change?

Max

[Eleft36]

Yes on the 400 setting; Last Sunday's ride(220mi) mileage was better @ 41. Lot's of offsets both ways.
Al

So what did you change?
Max

From 865 map to 876; Injector timing from 392 to 400; The start fuel pulse and upped the idle one notch, then checked and auto mapped after a 220 mile non highway ride. Sunday 6 2 13 another ride(230 miles)non highway ride, fuel mileage @ 41.7. Software said no auto map required. 
Idles, starts and runs good, no pinging, popping or surging. 
Al
Sunday 6 2 13 GPS Track attached:


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[Eleft36]

My current map, saved 6 02 13

Al

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[Admiral Akbar]

Looks good but you need to open the throttle more than 50 deg occasionally..    Give the map some miles..

Max

[Eleft36]

Looks good but you need to open the throttle more than 50 deg occasionally..    Give the map some miles..

Max

It's improving, 530 miles since I checked the offsets last. Sundays ride 297 miles(track jpeg. attached)topped off at start then topped off @ 174(3.93gals) trip stats show 40 mi avg. for moving time of 7:28 hrs. total trip 11:03 hrs. top speed of 73 .
And 2 up, mostly rural roads.
Al   

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