Injector timing

[Admiral Akbar]

There seems to be a lot of miss information here.. It would be nice to see what is really going on.. Might take a Sillyscope to see..

For 1 MAP is not used to find compression stoke.. Crankslowing is.. Or is you want Crank dV/dT.   BTW I used to think that the MAP was used..

How do you sample the MAP to get true map?    Pretty funny.. Map is always changing in a big twin. The software might want to sample the map at a particular time in the intake cycle. Some seem to think overlap.. Why wouldn't it be at BDC to help estimate cylinder fill? Might want to rock the sample point back and forth a little based on the cam..   I don't know.. Bet Cole does..

Injector timing.. Might be worth while to start before the intake valve opens. Might Not.. What about at 6000 RPM? If the injector PW is 20 ms, it's basically on all the time.. Intake valve opened and closed.. Fuel has to be hitting the back of a closed valve before it opens and after it closes..  I wonder how the closed loop systems work at high RPM under these conditions.. Say the injector timing is 90%.. It's surly feeding the other cylinder some... Seems like adding fuel would add to the other cylinder.. So what happens to the closed loop?

If putting down the road at 3K rpm.. (night be hard for some of the bagger folks..  ) , The injector PW may only be 6-8 milliseconds.. The intake valve could be open for say 270 deg seat to seat (not 0.053 lift).. That would be 15 milliseconds.. Why not spray based on the center of the intake duration?

Max

[wurk_truk]

MAP is used along with crank slowing to find start up, Max, at least that's how it was just explained to me.

[Admiral Akbar]

MAP is used along with crank slowing to find start up, Max, at least that's how it was just explained to me.

Well, whomever explained it to you was probably wrong.. Who said this? Why is it that the plugs need to be installed in the heads for spark to occur?  Why is it that some easy start SnS cams kill spark on low compression motors?

Max

[ultraswede]

Why is it that some easy start SnS cams kill spark on low compression motors?

Maybe this, in the quote below;

MAP is used along with crank slowing to find start up

[wurk_truk]

You are right...  HAHA!  ALONG with is correct.  Along with the CPS is MAP AND crank slowing.  All three.

You can probably figure out who told me... the guy with NO name.  After you, Max, posted, I talked at length about this subject.  I will not comment on the OP, but just wished to tell YOU it is all three.  Just like it will not fire without compression...  no spark... it will ALSO not fire with no MAP signal right before saying the valve opened.

To the OP, I will say one thing....  cam tool doesn't matter after about 2500 rpms and the injector IS on all the time after a certain point.  At idle, the injector runs at 8 hz and at 5000 rpms, the injector runs at 50 hz.  An injector cannot operate at 50hz.... it is simply ON.  The HZ is the same for the O2s, IIRC, haha!

[Coyote]

No mention of MAP being used in this explanation.

http://books.google.com/books?id=u66TFTLWJ-IC&pg=PA453&lpg=PA453&dq=harley+efi+cylinder+synchronization&source=bl&ots=1LJ5NL0aBz&sig=Cw6QbSjZ0g0deV0UvPCpK30IhbI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=10qaUar2OcHgiwL2yIDoAg&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=harley%20efi%20cylinder%20synchronization&f=false

[wurk_truk]

Hmmmmmmm

[Coyote]

Yeah, I know. 

[bigblock6912]

tmax has a injector timing feature now. is that related to all this conversation?

[FSG]

No mention of MAP being used in this explanation.

Well that's not surprising considering that MAP isn't used, crank slowing is used by itself.   But then again the level of crap in some of those articles and explanations perhaps he should mention MAP.   

[Coyote]

No mention of MAP being used in this explanation.

Well that's not surprising considering that MAP isn't used, crank slowing is used by itself.   But then again the level of crap in some of those articles and explanations perhaps he should mention MAP.   

Yes I figured out today that MAP is not involved in starting based on the debug procedure in the Electrical Diag Manual. Just more misinformation.

[Admiral Akbar]

tmax has a injector timing feature now. is that related to all this conversation?

Way cool.. They did it for smartlinkIV.. Last I heard they were only going to do it for TMAXI Tuner.. Not sure it is related tho.. Dan F tweaked a couple of maps for me.. Helped a bunch with light cruise and getting it leaned out without a hesitation.

Max

[strokerjlk]

tmax has a injector timing feature now. is that related to all this conversation?

Way cool.. They did it for smartlinkIV.. Last I heard they were only going to do it for TMAXI Tuner.. Not sure it is related tho.. Dan F tweaked a couple of maps for me.. Helped a bunch with light cruise and getting it leaned out without a hesitation.

Max

How lean? And what rpm / map /tp is cruise ?
What timing ?
Your 07 bagger ? 

[Admiral Akbar]

tmax has a injector timing feature now. is that related to all this conversation?

Way cool.. They did it for smartlinkIV.. Last I heard they were only going to do it for TMAXI Tuner.. Not sure it is related tho.. Dan F tweaked a couple of maps for me.. Helped a bunch with light cruise and getting it leaned out without a hesitation.

Max

How lean? And what rpm / map /tp is cruise ?
What timing ?
Your 07 bagger ? 

On the 07 bagger and on the 02 RK Both had the problem.. The RK was only real slight.. Kind felt like a lean surge..   On the EGC I had 0 problems until I installed a 55mm HPI TB with large injectors.  It started hesitating real bad at light cruise.. I pulled the injectors and installed the stock ones.. Problem much better but still there.. Richen things up and it got better.. Mileage tanked..  I talked to Dan at the Expo and he had me send him the maps.  Fixed both of them..

For the EGC it was mainly 20 deg to 30 deg tps, 2500 to 3300.. Currently it's set to 13.8 afr in that region..   Timing is 38 to 40 from 15 to 22 TPS then it starts to retard down to about 30 at 30 deg tps..  FWIW I think I can lean out the cruise a little more but its running great.

Ask TweekMyTwin about which bike was running better in Death Valley.. 

Max

[mayor]

tmax has a injector timing feature now. is that related to all this conversation?

Way cool.. They did it for smartlinkIV..

where do I find that in the software?  I updated my software last night, but don't see that any where.   

[strokerjlk]

tmax has a injector timing feature now. is that related to all this conversation?

Way cool.. They did it for smartlinkIV.. Last I heard they were only going to do it for TMAXI Tuner.. Not sure it is related tho.. Dan F tweaked a couple of maps for me.. Helped a bunch with light cruise and getting it leaned out without a hesitation.

Max

How lean? And what rpm / map /tp is cruise ?
What timing ?
Your 07 bagger ? 

On the 07 bagger and on the 02 RK Both had the problem.. The RK was only real slight.. Kind felt like a lean surge..   On the EGC I had 0 problems until I installed a 55mm HPI TB with large injectors.  It started hesitating real bad at light cruise.. I pulled the injectors and installed the stock ones.. Problem much better but still there.. Richen things up and it got better.. Mileage tanked..  I talked to Dan at the Expo and he had me send him the maps.  Fixed both of them..

For the EGC it was mainly 20 deg to 30 deg tps, 2500 to 3300.. Currently it's set to 13.8 afr in that region..   Timing is 38 to 40 from 15 to 22 TPS then it starts to retard down to about 30 at 30 deg tps..  FWIW I think I can lean out the cruise a little more but its running great.

Ask TweekMyTwin about which bike was running better in Death Valley.. 

Max

Thanks
makes sense to me . 40 deg at 22 % is that ok all the time ?
Like when your climbing a grade , and a gear to high?
Back to injectors .
Maybe try the bigger injectors again, of you get some free time .

[TweekmyTwin]

Ask TweekMyTwin about which bike was running better in Death Valley.. 

Yup.. Kicked my ass all the way back to the cabin... Heavy drinking was in order. 
I had some pinging issues due to a head gasket failure, now I just need to get back to Bob
Jim

[FSG]

Just more misinformation

Yes, such a shame some prefer never letting the truth interfere with a good story.

[Admiral Akbar]

Ask TweekMyTwin about which bike was running better in Death Valley.. 

Yup.. Kicked my ass all the way back to the cabin... Heavy drinking was in order. 
I had some pinging issues due to a head gasket failure, now I just need to get back to Bob
Jim

As I remember the head gasket issue was all Keith's fault..    (after all you were supplying the whiskey..  )

Thanks
makes sense to me . 40 deg at 22 % is that ok all the time ?
Like when your climbing a grade , and a gear to high?
Back to injectors .
Maybe try the bigger injectors again, of you get some free time .

One thing to note is that for some reason real 0 TPS, throttle off, is about 12 deg TPS on the TMAX.. When climbing a grade, the only way to get 22% (deg) would be to have one heck of a tail wind.. It ends up in the 30% range.. The Speed density systems do a better job of optimizing for load but in the end, I don't think it's more than say 1 MPG per tank when compared to Alpha N.. The thing is that MPG is probably generating a bit of hydrocarbons which the EPA don't like..

BTW, I've got a dial on the throttle spindle that is calibrated to TPS/ECM to make make sure I know where the TPS is at..

Max

[strokerjlk]

One thing to note is that for some reason real 0 TPS, throttle off, is about 12 deg TPS on the TMAX.. When climbing a grade, the only way to get 22% (deg) would be to have one heck of a tail wind..

I see . Makes more sense now .
Where in the world did you find a head gasket for a Vespa , in Death Valley ?

[Coyote]

As I remember the head gasket issue was all Keith's fault..    (after all you were supplying the whiskey..  )

Oh, that's cold man! 

[Eleft36]

tmax has a injector timing feature now. is that related to all this conversation?

Way cool.. They did it for smartlinkIV..

where do I find that in the software?  I updated my software last night, but don't see that any where.   

Basic Settings, it's not covered in the manual. Don't know how the #s are figured. This map 876 differs from 865, 392 vs 400.  392 has the header glowing and pipes carbon-ed up 400 doesn't do either..?? Intake noise louder @ 392 also..??
Al
oops! corrected transposed 67 to 76 ; correct map # is 876

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[mayor]

thanks Al     I just the maps that I was using with my 88"/95" RK and all were at 400°.   I hope they cover that at some point in the manual, to explain how that works and what changing it does.   

[Admiral Akbar]

I've got maps both before and after Dan's modifications..

The original shows 400 deg and the new map shows 364 on both maps.. Almost all the way to the other end of the setting..

Al,
One thing you might want to do when changing the injector timing is readjust the ignition timing some and back off the the AFR.. Sounds like the motor might be a little retarded (glowing red pipe) and it's showing up when you change the injector timing... You can also pull fuel and pick up on mileage.

FWIW I didn't see any difference in the exhaust color going from 400 to 364 but I've been able to lean out the maps at partial throttle and squeeze some more mileage out of the EGC.. My 02 RKC I've not done much cept ride it.. It runs better.

I'm guessing but suspect it number is injector pulse timing in degrees from TDC compression stroke or possibly the ignition event..

Max

[rbabos]

So, you guys saying with plugs out and a vacumn applied to the MAP sensor from a secondary source it will not spark? Huh?
Ron