124" build...I'll let the cat out of the bag

[fast freddy]

Fix the clutch , go kick but at the track. 

[pwmorris]

Just so there is no confusion about the AMRA dresser class.
All the dressers are street legal and street ridden .
This is from someone who actually runs the class and knows all the riders .

Thanks for clearing that up as I heard Dennicks bike was a track bike- NOT a daily driven bagger.
Being licensed and registered and street legal doesn't mean anything.
When I used to run AHDRA SP, we used to have rules for lic, reg, lights, etc, but no one really ran them on the street, except me and I usually got smoked when I ran my street/strip bike against the dedicated track bikes. Apples and oranges-
Going to the local bike run once in a while doesn't count either.
I know you run your bagger everywhere but I am talking the mid-low 10 second bike/s who win almost every week.

[strokerjlk]

Just so there is no confusion about the AMRA dresser class.
All the dressers are street legal and street ridden .
This is from someone who actually runs the class and knows all the riders .

Thanks for clearing that up as I heard Dennicks bike was a track bike- NOT a daily driven bagger.
Being licensed and registered and street legal doesn't mean anything.
When I used to run AHDRA SP, we used to have rules for lic, reg, lights, etc, but no one really ran them on the street, except me and I usually got smoked when I ran my street/strip bike against the dedicated track bikes. Apples and oranges-
Going to the local bike run once in a while doesn't count either.
I know you run your bagger everywhere but I am talking the mid-low 10 second bike/s who win almost every week.

Your welcome
We all still like to stalk the jap bikes on the street .
David's bike and even mine don't see as much street riding, as we both have another bagger for the street now . Limited street is still street .
I have ran every race on the circuit this season ... We do not race "every week"
but you are correct on one point your eluding to ..I finish runner up to David every event .
Last race in bowling green i broke the PTO belt on the blower right before eliminations. I still finished runner up ,without the blower .

[No Cents]

[attach=0]

Ray,
What the heck happened to the power with the Zilla @4500 rpms? Looks like a timing or fuel change?
Bob

I'm not sure Bob  but that dip at 4500 rpm's was the reason why I made my Burns pipe.
It got rid of that dip...but I think I have now found the limitations of my Burns pipe.
I'm going to make another 2n1 pipe out of mild steel this time using larger OD tubing just to see what it will do. I've got some ideas...so I'll see where it goes next time.

Ray

[pwmorris]

Just so there is no confusion about the AMRA dresser class.
All the dressers are street legal and street ridden .
This is from someone who actually runs the class and knows all the riders .

Thanks for clearing that up as I heard Dennicks bike was a track bike- NOT a daily driven bagger.
Being licensed and registered and street legal doesn't mean anything.
When I used to run AHDRA SP, we used to have rules for lic, reg, lights, etc, but no one really ran them on the street, except me and I usually got smoked when I ran my street/strip bike against the dedicated track bikes. Apples and oranges-
Going to the local bike run once in a while doesn't count either.
I know you run your bagger everywhere but I am talking the mid-low 10 second bike/s who win almost every week.

Your welcome
We all still like to stalk the "metric bike"s on the street .
David's bike and even mine don't see as much street riding, as we both have another bagger for the street now . Limited street is still street .
I have ran every race on the circuit this season ... We do not race "every week"
but you are correct on one point your eluding to ..I finish runner up to David every event .
Last race in bowling green i broke the PTO belt on the blower right before eliminations. I still finished runner up ,without the blower .

That was my point- these are second or third bikes that MAY get ridden occasionally on the street and NOT daily driver baggers. Totally different than Rays bike which is his daily driver running pump gas. Like I said, apples to oranges.
No different than the old SP bikes which could be ridden on the street, but never were for many different reasons-including running race gas... Why beat on parts on a bike that is designed to go down the track?
BTW, Dennicks  bagger bike is absolutely bad ass- he completely dominates that class, many times beating guys by more than a second. If I owned that bike, no way I would screw around with it on the street, and risk hurting it...

[Don D]

After being to Sturgis I don't see that as a venue for a bike like Rays, no offense, it is just too damn hot and the traffic is brutal. Unless you park away and walk.

[harleytuner]

I agree, big difference between a daily riding bike and a street legal track bike.  IMO my little 110" EG is perfect for the street, 126 HP ans 127 TRQ making 118 TRQ at 2K.  I'll ride that bike across country tomorrow if I felt the urge and not have a care in the world.

[PoorUB]

After being to Sturgis I don't see that as a venue for a bike like Rays, no offense, it is just too damn hot and the traffic is brutal. Unless you park away and walk.

Don't ride the main streets coming into town. Get off and run side streets.

[FLTRI]

[attach=0]

Ray,
What the heck happened to the power with the Zilla @4500 rpms? Looks like a timing or fuel change?
Bob

I'm not sure Bob  but that dip at 4500 rpm's was the reason why I made my Burns pipe.
It got rid of that dip...but I think I have now found the limitations of my Burns pipe.
I'm going to make another 2n1 pipe out of mild steel this time using larger OD tubing just to see what it will do. I've got some ideas...so I'll see where it goes next time.

Ray

FWIW, this is the first time I've seen a pipe that has a "switch" type flow change right in the sweet spot of power.
The Zilla's I've tuned have never shown this anomoly.
I've seen timing changes, sometimes due to knock retard, cause this behavior. I've seen VE changes do this.
Just not sure how the aerodynamics of a pipe can change so rapidly.
That said, I learn something every day!
Bob

[No Cents]

 Bob...you would have to talk to Jim as to why the Zilla did what it did. I can't answer it myself.

  Don...I'm an old veteran Sturgis Bike Week goer. I've been there over a dozen times in my life. I love the country side out there.
You learn early on to stay away from downtown Sturgis in the stop and go traffic in the heat of the day. If I do go into down town Sturgis...it's early in the morning so I'm able to slide out of there before it becomes elbow to elbow everywhere you turn.
I mostly do the scenic out of town roads and I enjoy seeing the beautiful sights of the country side more than the wall to wall people in town.

Ray

added later:
the hottest I've seen the oil temperature on this 124" engine is 214*...cooler than most T/C engines I've checked.
So I am not afraid to hop on it and go either.

[Don D]

Of course, I agree. Downtown mid-day is not a place for high compression expensive air cooled machinery.

[FLTRI]

Very interesting for sure!
The bike 4500 dive disappeared in the -2 graph? Maybe it's a different run or bike than the preciously posted comparison of pipes?
Bob

[harleytuner]

Very interesting for sure!
The bike 4500 dive disappeared in the -2 graph? Maybe it's a different run or bike than the preciously posted comparison of pipes?
Bob

2 different pipes run 3 months apart.

[TA63]

Of course, I agree. Downtown mid-day is not a place for high compression expensive air cooled machinery.

No doubt. Scuffed a set of Pistons in a high compression 117 there one hot afternoon.

[gordonr]

Ray can you lay your old head setup with the 662-2's and the burns pipe sheet with the new ones?

pretty much so Gordon.
The curves are very similar with every dyno sheet I have with my Burns pipe...except for the latest graphs with the end cap in it where the tq came in a little sooner...but they are almost identical curves thru 4,000 rpm's to the end of the pulls. My old Zilla was a different curve all together.

[attach=0]



Now seeing these curves proves out the idea that one pipe, doesn't fit the bill on all builds configs. Specific built pipes really mean specific for the build. Another chapter to look forward to Ray?

Blue is the Zilla with the 662-2 cams
Red is the Burns pipe with the 662-2 cams
This was before I made the end cap for the Burns.

Ray

[No Cents]

Very interesting for sure!
The bike 4500 dive disappeared in the -2 graph? Maybe it's a different run or bike than the preciously posted comparison of pipes?
Bob

nope Bob...both runs were from my same bike a few months apart.
Both dyno runs it had the Tman 662-2 cams in it...and the "only" difference in the bike between the two runs was the Burns pipe change from the Zilla.

I agree Gordon!
The pipe plays a major role in how the power is delivered. This is a perfect example of it.

Ray

[No Cents]

 I made the trip to Mattoon, Illinois today and picked the bike up at Jim's.
I took it off the trailer and took it out for a little ride to get my first impressions. It was hot outside (94*) and I will note the bike did have a nice quiet valve train. To me the 640's felt a lot softer off the bottom when comparing them to the CR651's...and it feels no were near as close to having that same angry feeling that the 651's gave it. If you spool it up to between 3500- 4000 rpm's the 640's seem to come to life...but below that I can honestly say I don't care for them so much when comparing them to the more angrier cams I've ran in the past. I guess the best way to describe them is they are very tame down low with a dull feeling.
We'll see how my next ride goes...but I don't think I'll be able to live with them very long. I like the feeling of my bike being ready to gitty up and go at the slightest touch of the throttle...and so far I'm just not feeling that with the 640's.

Ray

[FLTRI]

Very interesting for sure!
The bike 4500 dive disappeared in the -2 graph? Maybe it's a different run or bike than the preciously posted comparison of pipes?
Bob

nope Bob...both runs were from my same bike a few months apart.
Both dyno runs it had the Tman 662-2 cams in it...and the "only" difference in the bike between the two runs was the Burns pipe change from the Zilla...
Ray

My question is there are 2 runs, months apart, with same cams and same Zilla.
The latest run shows a hit to power at 4500.... Why should it be there? And why wasn't it there in the months ago run?
Bob

[fast freddy]

Different heads

[IronMike113]

Cocked,Locked,And Loaded that set up is going to be hard to beat with what you had Ray,it's not always the numbers Ray it has to feel GOOD TOO right. good luck on your Quest 😜

[No Cents]

 Fred...I think Bob is talking about the -2 cams with the old heads.

Bob...I don't have the answer.

Mike...I'll ride it a little longer with the 640's and see if I can get use to them. It's a cam with a different personality that I'm not use to running.
It definitely doesn't have that cocked and loaded feeling down low.

Ray

[Smarty]

I hear the gears in your head turning Ray. It's saying, now that I figured out the the upper engine noise, I'll bet if I put the other cams back in, I'll have that angry feeling motor with the quiet valve train. Heck, it won't take but a couple of hours, why not.

[03NhHarley]

I made the trip to Mattoon, Illinois today and picked the bike up at Jim's.
I took it off the trailer and took it out for a little ride to get my first impressions. It was hot outside (94*) and I will note the bike did have a nice quiet valve train. To me the 640's felt a lot softer off the bottom when comparing them to the CR651's...and it feels no were near as close to having that same angry feeling that the 651's gave it. If you spool it up to between 3500- 4000 rpm's the 640's seem to come to life...but below that I can honestly say I don't care for them so much when comparing them to the more angrier cams I've ran in the past. I guess the best way to describe them is they are very tame down low with a dull feeling.
We'll see how my next ride goes...but I don't think I'll be able to live with them very long. I like the feeling of my bike being ready to gitty up and go at the slightest touch of the throttle...and so far I'm just not feeling that with the 640's.

Ray

I get that same uneventful feeling out of my 117" at 10.5 with S&S 585s.

[fast freddy]

I think the cr651 are a great cam,but the I think the 640ss are good two . The riding styles of each person can be so different. Ray you will have to make the choice that make you happy. Me personally like a soft bottom end , very easy to ride in corners on the street. I bet if you were to do a real qtr mile run on the street you just ma be surprised.  Most importantly do what makes you happy , it is your bike . Thank you for the opportunity Ray.   In closing we never did see how it ran with cr651 with Ss lifters?    It did sound mean,I definitely get you on that.

[No Cents]

  Smarty...your right on target with what I was thinking.
I already e-mailed Jim last night and asked him if my previous tune with the 651's was completed good enough to load back in if I decided to swap the cams back out. That previous tuning session with the 651's kind of ended early with all the valve train noise I had going on. He said I would know if I did decide to put them back in once I rode the bike if the tune was good enough.
  I guess my expectations of the 640's was just a little higher than what I ended up with on the lower end. This just goes to show how two different sets of cams with similar cam spec's can have two totally different personalities and perform differently.
  Please don't get me wrong here. I'm not saying the 640's are a bad cam...they just don't feel as strong off the bottom end as the CR651's do. In the mid rpm range the 640's seem to come on and pull just like the old 651's did.
I'm going to ride it for awhile longer before making my decision to see if I want to go thru the trouble of swapping the cams.

Ray