WOT sheets

[hrdtail78]

I see guys putting up back to back runs for comparison.  This is a good example of taking them with somewhat a grain of salt. There is more going on than what a sheet shows.

Bike is a 2000 roadglide.

Run40 is from 9/20 w/ a SE pro 2-1.  He had some problems with cracking so I welded it up and tuned it. He couldn't do anything else until after Xmas.  He brought it back for the 2-1 that he originally wanted.  I installed and did some tuning.  No other changes to the bike.  He put 1000 miles on it in between tunes. My stack was not calibrated between runs either.

So, did the pipe change do what we wanted? 

[hrdtail78]

Here is the time run. 

[hrdtail78]

...and run files


[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[1FSTRK]

So you ran it in different gears. What is your point?

[hrdtail78]

No I didn't.  Same bike, same gearing.

My point is.

I can post the sheet and say pipe A made close enough to pipe B that there isn't a difference by just showing the 2 runs.  The difference might be correction factor, weather, 3 month apart.......  What the first sheet is showing is nothing more than what I want to show you.  It does not show you what is really going on.  The time run does show you more.  The run file will show even more.

[1FSTRK]

These are the runs you posted, why the gear ratio change?


The red run made more TQ for about 70% of the rpm run, the only reason for the blue to accelerate in less time would be he gear ratio difference.

[rageglide]

Lies, damned lies and statistics... and dyno charts. 

Interesting comparison, I was going to ask earlier, "WHAT did he *want* out of the pipe change?"  If a faster revving engine was what he wanted looks like he got it.  But we still can't see if the bike runs amazing or worse light throttle or off idle.   

My experience with a tune in the past yielded nice numbers on the print out, but I never was particularly happy with how it ran day to day.  It ran pretty good, but it had a couple quirks, and a harsh personality (for lack of a better description).  I never got what *i* wanted with that tune...

[1FSTRK]

Lies, damned lies and statistics... and dyno charts. 

Interesting comparison, I was going to ask earlier, "WHAT did he *want* out of the pipe change?"  If a faster revving engine was what he wanted looks like he got it.  But we still can't see if the bike runs amazing or worse light throttle or off idle.   

My experience with a tune in the past yielded nice numbers on the print out, but I never was particularly happy with how it ran day to day.  It ran pretty good, but it had a couple quirks, and a harsh personality (for lack of a better description).  I never got what *i* wanted with that tune...

A WOT graph gives an good indication of how the motor is tuned and it's performance output only at WOT. All other throttle positions could be junk. That said if viewed for what it is you get a good indication of how the combination compares to other WOT combos. It was never intended to represent the quality of the entire tune up and you should not try to view it as such.

[rageglide]

A WOT graph gives an good indication of how the motor is tuned and it's performance output only at WOT. All other throttle positions could be junk. That said if viewed for what it is you get a good indication of how the combination compares to other WOT combos. It was never intended to represent the quality of the entire tune up and you should not try to view it as such.

I'm absolutely not reading anything more into the graph.  I totally agree with the point being raised by the OP.

[BVHOG]

A WOT is after all nothing more than a representation of a bikes peak performance at WOT. What I want to know is what your strain gauge had to say about the situation.

[hrdtail78]

"WHAT did he *want* out of the pipe change?"  If a faster revving engine was what he wanted looks like he got it.  But we still can't see if the bike runs amazing or worse light throttle or off idle.   

He basically wanted a better performing exhaust that didn't look like it was drug down the road.

His clutch is slipping.  That is why it rev's faster and his power is about the same.  In theory, if his clutch stayed together.  His power should go up.  Remember, that a DJ only know acceleration and RPM and it doesn't need RPM to give HP.

Hard to tell that with only a snap shot of one WOT run.

I am in no way discrediting all sheets.  They are what they are and good info.  I find the best way to use them is back to back comparing one to the next.  It is the best thing we have for judging what a build will do, and what a combo curve can look like.  It certainly isn't perfect.

[hrdtail78]

A WOT is after all nothing more than a representation of a bikes peak performance at WOT. What I want to know is what your strain gauge had to say about the situation.

Since my computer took a crap last week.  I was so busy setting up DL on my new one and getting all that mess straightened out.  I haven't made the time to hang the weight and all that. 

[1FSTRK]

I see guys putting up back to back runs for comparison.  This is a good example of taking them with somewhat a grain of salt. There is more going on than what a sheet shows.

I think it has been shown many times there are cases of both poor dyno procedure and pure deception but that is dealing with the human element. One of the greatest assets we have is that the dyno section is populated by bike owners and independent dyno shops more than vendors trying to sell to parts. This is how the truly deceptive get caught. If you post BS to sell things,someone will buy it and it will get tested. We have some great dyno shops posting here that do not manufacture anything, their credibility comes from the the fact that the reports they give on what works and doesn't work are repeatable for all.

[rageglide]

His clutch is slipping.  That is why it rev's faster and his power is about the same.  In theory, if his clutch stayed together.  His power should go up.  Remember, that a DJ only know acceleration and RPM and it doesn't need RPM to give HP.

Hard to tell that with only a snap shot of one WOT run.

Well, that makes sense NOW.. :-)  Hey I'll admit I'm a wannabee when it comes to this stuff.   I have seen slip but it never saw it so even and drawn out like that.  I don't have a software license to see the actual run files.  Oh well. 

[hrdtail78]

http://www.dynojet.com/downloads/Default.aspx?ProdType=Dyno-Software-Firmware-Other

I think this is it?

[hrdtail78]

Different build but the slip is a little easier to see. But hey, I could brag on the peak numbers out of a 103.

[joe_lyons]

These are the runs you posted, why the gear ratio change?


The red run made more TQ for about 70% of the rpm run, the only reason for the blue to accelerate in less time would be he gear ratio difference.

Thats some funky clutch slip for sure.  Was it the same tire on there also?  Mabie had a primary oil change and it was filled a bit too full.  What did 39 look like?

[hrdtail78]

Different runs at different times.  Numbers just came out that way.  40 was done a couple of months before 38.  Same tire.  I called the owner and asked him if he changed anything. He said no. He did mention that he felt he was hitting redline sooner.  I think he was getting slip and not recognizing it.

I label my stuff kind of strange and hit the green button a lot. They all don't mean a run was made.

[strokerjlk]

what run slipped 70 % of the run?

[hrdtail78]

Who stated 70%?  I don't get what you're asking.  Maybe we need to sit down, look at each other in the eye, and talk about it.

Are you here to get this thread locked as well?  You have stated you have no respect for me.  Why ask me questions?  You have stated I have nothing to give to this forum.  Why ask me questions?  You have stated you aren't going to teach me.  Why ask me questions?

Oh wait.  This is another public service announcement.  So get to it, and make the point if you have one.  The point of this thread is.  A WOT sheet doesn't show everything.  It also doesn't show if both runs are slipping.

Good Day

[strokerjlk]

The red run made more TQ for about 70% of the rpm run, the only reason for the blue to accelerate in less time would be he gear ratio difference.

He basically wanted a better performing exhaust that didn't look like it was drug down the road.
His clutch is slipping.  That is why it rev's faster and his power is about the same.  In theory, if his clutch stayed together.  His power should go up. Remember, that a DJ only know acceleration and RPM and it doesn't need RPM to give HP.

Hard to tell that with only a snap shot of one WOT run.

actually a snap shot tells you quite a bit.

[hrdtail78]

The red run made more TQ for about 70% of the rpm run, the only reason for the blue to accelerate in less time would be he gear ratio difference.

what run slipped 70 % of the run?

Who stated 70%?  I don't get what you're asking.  Maybe we need to sit down, look at each other in the eye, and talk about it.

Less smoke and mirrors if we reference who quoted what?  70% more tq doesn't necessary mean a clutch slip.  Lets read what is there and not make up what we want to suit what we want.

[rageglide]

http://www.dynojet.com/downloads/Default.aspx?ProdType=Dyno-Software-Firmware-Other

I think this is it?

Thanks I had downloaded the Suite previously, I'll check this viewer out.  Appreciate the link.   BTW I like that loop-de-loop slip, I've seen that behavior in a run posted before on this forum.  I've only seen the jagged spikes in real world.  Of course that could be a function of how it's being displayed.

[1FSTRK]

The red run made more TQ for about 70% of the rpm run, the only reason for the blue to accelerate in less time would be he gear ratio difference.

what run slipped 70 % of the run?

Who stated 70%?  I don't get what you're asking.  Maybe we need to sit down, look at each other in the eye, and talk about it.

Less smoke and mirrors if we reference who quoted what?  70% more tq doesn't necessary mean a clutch slip.  Lets read what is there and not make up what we want to suit what we want.

Please reread the post. Nobody said 70% more tq. I agree with you that a single graph can not give the whole picture.

My point was that you cannot infer better performance between these two runs base on run time because the gear ratio graph clearly shows a lower gear ratio for the entire blue run and just like shifting down this will give you the shorter run time on the timed graph. To compare two run times for your purpose you must have the same gear ratio for both runs. You will then be proving the motor made enough additional power to accelerate the same gear load at a quicker rate.

This does help to reinforce your point that just looking at one graph does not always mean what we think it does. This is why we need good dyno operators that understand and work with this information daily to help insure that these comparisons are made with accurate runs and not take offence when simple questions are asked.

[hrdtail78]

More tq 70% of the time.  Not 70% more tq.