Which clutch hub is best?

[stogieluvr60]

I tore down the primary drive of my 09 Ultra and among other things, I found a few of the ends of the splines of the clutch hub chipped away. Just a few, but enough to warrant replacement. My question for the HTT crowd is between these 2 choices, which one would be the best choice or is there a better choice than either that I am not aware of. This is just a stage II 103", 87hp 105tq.....nothing crazy, just a regular 2 up tourer.
First choice is http://www.dragspecialties.com/products/?productId=181886&partNumber=11320698
and the other is the OEM replacement 37554-06a. I am addressing the design flaws that caused this issue so hopefully which ever hub I go with will last longer than the 23,000 miles the original did. Thanks to all who respond.

[Ohio HD]

If you're happy with how the clutch it's self holds, then use this.

http://www.harley-davidson.com/store/se-performance-race-clutch-hub-kit

[stogieluvr60]

If you're happy with how the clutch it's self holds, then use this.

http://www.harley-davidson.com/store/se-performance-race-clutch-hub-kit

I installed the heavy duty diaphragm spring when I went to 103" and I have never experienced any slipping. It seems this SE unit does away with this spring in favor of the outer plate. I can see how this would facilitate more uniform pressure applied to the clutch pack.How does the inner clutch hub of this unit differ from the stock unit?

[FSG]

How does the inner clutch hub of this unit differ from the stock unit?

The stock and aftermarket stock replacements have towers that the spring retainer plate screws up to.




The SE Clutch has threaded studs that springs go over then nuts so as to be able to vary the pressure on the plate.

[stogieluvr60]

How does the inner clutch hub of this unit differ from the stock unit?

The stock and aftermarket stock replacements have towers that the spring retainer plate screws up to.




The SE Clutch has threaded studs that springs go over then nuts so as to be able to vary the pressure on the plate.

I see.....more questions come to mind......would you say that this SE unit may be balanced better than the OEM or aftermarket replacements? And would the actual splined unit in the center be appreciably different than the one in the OEM unit? It seems that this splined center hub is sort of sacrificial as I see many that have the same issues as mine but virtually no main shaft spline issues. Thanks again for helping me make the best choice.

[Ohio HD]

The product info says it will hold 160 torque. So yes, stronger.

http://www.harley-davidson.com/store/se-performance-race-clutch-hub-kit

Innovative new clutch hub kit offers improved clutch performance, and is perfect for large displacement applications.

    Supports engines producing up to 160 lb of torque
    Kit includes the hub, pressure plate and clutch springs, and can be used with stock friction discs and spacers (Does not include clutch friction plates)

[FSG]

To be honest $250 before discount is a good deal considering your up for between $135 to $150 just to get a stock/aftermarket hub by itself, so for $100 more, well.

[N-gin]

I asked how much the was my cost on one of those and the tech at the other side of the counter said don't waste your money, get a Scorpion clutch... 
The SE looks like a nice piece.

[Eglider05]

Does the SE fit on the splines better than the stock hub? On my 05 the fit was so sloppy I couldn't believe it. I had to spend some time to get my Bandit hub lined up so it would slip on, nice precision fit. The other thing I liked about the Bandit was the tapered counterbore which fit over the taper on the tranny shaft. After having the Bandit I could never tolerate a lesser quality fit.

Rick

[Ken R]

I  have several 09 and later unserviceable clutch packs on my workbench.  They all have the  splines worn on the ends.  I've seen or heard of many more from 09 and later motors.


What causes that? 


It seems like the splines on the end would be the least likely to have any wear since they're completely over the splined shaft. 


Ken

[rbabos]

I  have several 09 and later unserviceable clutch packs on my workbench.  They all have the  splines worn on the ends.  I've seen or heard of many more from 09 and later motors.


What causes that? 


It seems like the splines on the end would be the least likely to have any wear since they're completely over the splined shaft. 


Ken

The main shaft suffers from torsional effect. First place the twisting has the effect is at the start of the splines. Usually the first 3/8".
Ron

[stogieluvr60]

I  have several 09 and later unserviceable clutch packs on my workbench.  They all have the  splines worn on the ends.  I've seen or heard of many more from 09 and later motors.


What causes that? 


It seems like the splines on the end would be the least likely to have any wear since they're completely over the splined shaft. 


Ken

I also believe that some of this broken splines issue is due to the over tightening of the primary chain caused by the OEM self adjuster. It has a habit of over tightening and because it has no way to back off the pressure, things like clutch hub splines, inner primary bearings, and transmission mainshaft bearings get destroyed. I know the MOCO was trying to make the primary more maintenance free but it sure looks like they created a hell of a lot of trouble just so you would not have to manually adjust a primary chain....like that was ever a big problem. I'm going to get this all fixed and if there is any more BS down the road (other than fair wear and tear) I'm trading the thing in on a Victory Cross Country Tour......I'm tired of all these MOCO time bombs going off.......I just want to ride! Oh and by the way.....I've decided to go with the SE unit. I like that I have more control over how much force the pressure plate puts on the clutch pack. thanks again to all and especially Ohio HD for suggesting the SE unit. Hopefully between the new SE comp and the SE manual adjuster and the SE clutch hub, this issue will be closed. It just pisses me off I'm putting more $$ back into the pockets of the people that created this mess to start with. I wish the aftermarket could one up these guys but I guess we know what happens when they do... they get screwed like the Compensaver deal. I hope the 2014's and the Rushmore Project improvement work out for people. This "Potty mouth" gets old....

[Admiral Akbar]

I  have several 09 and later unserviceable clutch packs on my workbench.  They all have the  splines worn on the ends.  I've seen or heard of many more from 09 and later motors.


What causes that? 


It seems like the splines on the end would be the least likely to have any wear since they're completely over the splined shaft. 


Ken

I also believe that some of this broken splines issue is due to the over tightening of the primary chain caused by the OEM self adjuster. It has a habit of over tightening and because it has no way to back off the pressure, things like clutch hub splines, inner primary bearings, and transmission mainshaft bearings get destroyed. I know the MOCO was trying to make the primary more maintenance free but it sure looks like they created a hell of a lot of trouble just so you would not have to manually adjust a primary chain....like that was ever a big problem. I'm going to get this all fixed and if there is any more BS down the road (other than fair wear and tear) I'm trading the thing in on a Victory Cross Country Tour......I'm tired of all these MOCO time bombs going off.......I just want to ride! Oh and by the way.....I've decided to go with the SE unit. I like that I have more control over how much force the pressure plate puts on the clutch pack. thanks again to all and especially Ohio HD for suggesting the SE unit. Hopefully between the new SE comp and the SE manual adjuster and the SE clutch hub, this issue will be closed. It just pisses me off I'm putting more $$ back into the pockets of the people that created this mess to start with. I wish the aftermarket could one up these guys but I guess we know what happens when they do... they get screwed like the Compensaver deal. I hope the 2014's and the Rushmore Project improvement work out for people. This "Potty mouth" gets old....

I agree. You need a bike you can't screw with...

Max

[stogieluvr60]

I  have several 09 and later unserviceable clutch packs on my workbench.  They all have the  splines worn on the ends.  I've seen or heard of many more from 09 and later motors.


What causes that? 


It seems like the splines on the end would be the least likely to have any wear since they're completely over the splined shaft. 


Ken

I also believe that some of this broken splines issue is due to the over tightening of the primary chain caused by the OEM self adjuster. It has a habit of over tightening and because it has no way to back off the pressure, things like clutch hub splines, inner primary bearings, and transmission mainshaft bearings get destroyed. I know the MOCO was trying to make the primary more maintenance free but it sure looks like they created a hell of a lot of trouble just so you would not have to manually adjust a primary chain....like that was ever a big problem. I'm going to get this all fixed and if there is any more BS down the road (other than fair wear and tear) I'm trading the thing in on a Victory Cross Country Tour......I'm tired of all these MOCO time bombs going off.......I just want to ride! Oh and by the way.....I've decided to go with the SE unit. I like that I have more control over how much force the pressure plate puts on the clutch pack. thanks again to all and especially Ohio HD for suggesting the SE unit. Hopefully between the new SE comp and the SE manual adjuster and the SE clutch hub, this issue will be closed. It just pisses me off I'm putting more $$ back into the pockets of the people that created this mess to start with. I wish the aftermarket could one up these guys but I guess we know what happens when they do... they get screwed like the Compensaver deal. I hope the 2014's and the Rushmore Project improvement work out for people. This "Potty mouth" gets old....

I agree. You need a bike you can't screw with...

Max

As usual Max......you're about as helpful and constructive as a hemorrhoid. What a legacy...

[Admiral Akbar]

As usual Max......you're about as helpful and constructive as a hemorrhoid. What a legacy...

What can I say?   I'm here to annoy..    BTW I fix hemorrhoids on the side.. I got an Exacto-knife and an old cigarette lighter.. 

Max

Add:
Used sell a do it yourself lobotomy kit but sales died out cuz I never got any feedback...  Good or bad.. 

Max

[FXDRYDR]

Is that why munky/w lobo ran off?

[strokerjlk]

The SE unit was buildt for Popeye . 

[Hillside Motorcycle]

I tore down the primary drive of my 09 Ultra and among other things, I found a few of the ends of the splines of the clutch hub chipped away. Just a few, but enough to warrant replacement. My question for the HTT crowd is between these 2 choices, which one would be the best choice or is there a better choice than either that I am not aware of. This is just a stage II 103", 87hp 105tq.....nothing crazy, just a regular 2 up tourer.
First choice is http://www.dragspecialties.com/products/?productId=181886&partNumber=11320698
and the other is the OEM replacement 37554-06a. I am addressing the design flaws that caused this issue so hopefully which ever hub I go with will last longer than the 23,000 miles the original did. Thanks to all who respond.

Which one is best?
Bandit Machine Works.
Scott

[timtoolman]

The SE unit was buildt for Popeye .

.
I had one in the other week  took it out , and I used to be Popeye dam It sucks getting older

[stogieluvr60]

The SE unit was buildt for Popeye .

I'm getting the feeling this SE unit may be a bit much on the left hand. Do you suppose a Burly Easy Boy Lite clutch do-hickie may make it manageable? I have no doubt that The Bandit unit would be better Scott but my pockets are getting pretty shallow.

[locker55]

I might be off here....but it's to my understanding that a trued crank could help the newer primary to be less trouble also. I know it would really help the cams side. Gear drive don't go to well on the newer bikes with the run out that is aloud. But this could be the start of another post.

[stogieluvr60]

I might be off here....but it's to my understanding that a trued crank could help the newer primary to be less trouble also. I know it would really help the cams side. Gear drive don't go to well on the newer bikes with the run out that is aloud. But this could be the start of another post.

I don't know if a trued, welded crank would make the primary work any better, but I would imagine that it would survive the damaging effects of this primary drive system a lot longer. Personally, I vote for some engineering that had function in mind rather than cost.

[locker55]

I swear by a done crank. But it does take down time and money. It's worth it for me being the top end always gets to much for a stock one. How do I know that.....don't ask, just send cash. Please.
I do find it's better to go with the better stuff that way you don't waste $ on the cheaper one and then buying the better one after the cheaper one goes anyway.
Or keep your RPM's under 2500...I hear the bikes last a long time that way....HAHA.
Good luck with your pick.

[timtoolman]

I do know a good primary system makes a crank trued or  welded  a happier component

[burnout1550]

Don't overlook Evolution Industries.

[stogieluvr60]

I do know a good primary system makes a crank trued or  welded  a happier component

No doubt...of course, the same can be said for a stock bottom end too. I wonder if greater attention had been paid to the shortcomings of the OEM primary drive, how many bottom end failures could have been avoided, not to mention IPB's & TMB'S? We Harley people must be either ultra loyal or ultra foolish....maybe a combination of both.....

[rbabos]

I do know a good primary system makes a crank trued or  welded  a happier component

No doubt...of course, the same can be said for a stock bottom end too. I wonder if greater attention had been paid to the shortcomings of the OEM primary drive, how many bottom end failures could have been avoided, not to mention IPB's & TMB'S? We Harley people must be either ultra loyal or ultra foolish....maybe a combination of both.....

Sorry, can't argue with that statement.
Ron

[timtoolman]

That's why with my new S&S crank I replaced the entire primary system 

[build it]

Is it possible to check the primary for any stack up load on the crank? Not sure if I'm wording that right.

[FlaHeatWave]

That's why with my new S&S crank I replaced the entire primary system

What components did you use in the primary?

[timtoolman]

Latest S.E. Compensator. New chain . New clutch basket, barnett clutches and their low profile variable pressure plate and the new S.E. Tensioner, mixture of formula plus and vtwin primary fluid

[Ken R]

Latest S.E. Compensator. New chain . New clutch basket, barnett clutches and their low profile variable pressure plate and the new S.E. Tensioner, mixture of formula plus and vtwin primary fluid

The Barnett people sure don't like Formula +. 
I called and talked to a tech person that said it was too thick for their clutches.   I used it with HD stock clutches, but it really clunked 1st gear after cold starts in neutral.  And starting the engine in gear would require holding the brake until the oil thinned a bit and got slung around inside the primary.


I've mixed stuff in my primary, too.  Right now, I'm running a little Syn-3, a little Mobile1 Synthetic 20w-50, and a little Synthetic ATF. 


The Barnett guy said that they like synthetic oils like Syn-3, ATF, AMSOil, Mobile1, etc.  "Just don't use Formula+ with our clutches."


I'm getting the best clutch life and adjustment stability in over 8 months with my current Barnett Carbon Fiber clutch that I got from California Phil's. 


Ken

[Admiral Akbar]

Latest S.E. Compensator. New chain . New clutch basket, barnett clutches and their low profile variable pressure plate and the new S.E. Tensioner, mixture of formula plus and vtwin primary fluid

The Barnett people sure don't like Formula +. 
I called and talked to a tech person that said it was too thick for their clutches.   I used it with HD stock clutches, but it really clunked 1st gear after cold starts in neutral.  And starting the engine in gear would require holding the brake until the oil thinned a bit and got slung around inside the primary.


I've mixed stuff in my primary, too.  Right now, I'm running a little Syn-3, a little Mobile1 Synthetic 20w-50, and a little Synthetic ATF. 


The Barnett guy said that they like synthetic oils like Syn-3, ATF, AMSOil, Mobile1, etc.  "Just don't use Formula+ with our clutches."


I'm getting the best clutch life and adjustment stability in over 8 months with my current Barnett Carbon Fiber clutch that I got from California Phil's. 


Ken

So you fixed your funky problem with the clutch.. It was the plates?

Max

[Ken R]

I firmly believe that Harley has changed their clutch plates in some way.  Where I used to get 6 months of torturous cone-riding on a set, the latest ones are only lasting 2 or 3 sessions.  I can tell immediately if one is going to last or prematurely burn out.  The dealership even put a whole new clutch in, basket and all(under warranty); and it didn't last through their check ride.  They readjusted and gave me the motor; their adjustment was going south within 4 miles and I had to limp home that evening.  They replaced it again; I could tell that it was going soft as well.  I know local riders that have had clutch recent replacements within 500 miles of buying brand new motorcycles.  I know of police motors that have gone through multiple clutches in just days on new motorcycles. 


Max, the problem is that the clutches would swell up when hot; so much that clutch lever freeplay would be huge-excessive.  So much freeplay that when the lever was against the grip, the clutch would not disengage.  If adjusted, the freeplay would disappear completely and the clutch's center adjustment would need to be re-adjusted, sometimes 2 or 3 times in one practice session.  I have one clutch plate in a pack that only lasted a few hours; the friction pads were worn clean down to the aluminum.  On the flip side, there were little blisters or bulges in the aluminum substrate.  That's just not right! 
The symptoms I was whining about appear to all be due to the wide swings in adjustment due to heat (in one direction) and wear (in the other direction)



I've been cone riding for 6 or 7 (or more) years; and never had this kind of problem.  Then suddenly, I couldn't keep a clutch in my motor for more than a week.  (symptoms would appear within minutes of the first ride)


So I gave up and tried the Barnett.  So far, it's behaving like clutches USED to behave.  I check adjustments after every practice session . . . . no adjustment have been needed.  So far, stable as a rock and the friction zone doesn't move around. 

[timtoolman]

That's funny because Mike at Barnett said formula + could be used just not much  in the colder temps that's why I mixed it New compensator likes the + and clutches like the other stuff . When I put it in 1st gear it goes click not clunk anymore, I was suprised

[timtoolman]

But then I removed the damper spring and spacer  and smaller clutch disc that goes in first  and used another full disc,

[Admiral Akbar]

I firmly believe that Harley has changed their clutch plates in some way.  Where I used to get 6 months of torturous cone-riding on a set, the latest ones are only lasting 2 or 3 sessions.  I can tell immediately if one is going to last or prematurely burn out.  The dealership even put a whole new clutch in, basket and all(under warranty); and it didn't last through their check ride.  They readjusted and gave me the motor; their adjustment was going south within 4 miles and I had to limp home that evening.  They replaced it again; I could tell that it was going soft as well.  I know local riders that have had clutch recent replacements within 500 miles of buying brand new motorcycles.  I know of police motors that have gone through multiple clutches in just days on new motorcycles. 


Max, the problem is that the clutches would swell up when hot; so much that clutch lever freeplay would be huge-excessive.  So much freeplay that when the lever was against the grip, the clutch would not disengage.  If adjusted, the freeplay would disappear completely and the clutch's center adjustment would need to be re-adjusted, sometimes 2 or 3 times in one practice session.  I have one clutch plate in a pack that only lasted a few hours; the friction pads were worn clean down to the aluminum.  On the flip side, there were little blisters or bulges in the aluminum substrate.  That's just not right! 
The symptoms I was whining about appear to all be due to the wide swings in adjustment due to heat (in one direction) and wear (in the other direction)



I've been cone riding for 6 or 7 (or more) years; and never had this kind of problem.  Then suddenly, I couldn't keep a clutch in my motor for more than a week.  (symptoms would appear within minutes of the first ride)


So I gave up and tried the Barnett.  So far, it's behaving like clutches USED to behave.  I check adjustments after every practice session . . . . no adjustment have been needed.  So far, stable as a rock and the friction zone doesn't move around.

Ken

Thanks for the info..

Max

[TorQuePimp]

http://evolution-industries.com/pdfiles/evo-motorcycle.pdf

  Very good stuff