Gaterman GP-1023 Lifters Long Term Wear

[No Cents]

 
I got carried away with the zero's   
I meant to say .005 difference between the two set of lifters.
I'll go back and edit it FSG...I should learn to proof read before I post. 

[Ohio HD]

Brian, what is the diameter of that marked up AR pin? 

The .0005- .0006 difference in between the clearance on the B's to the Gaterman's is a bunch...almost unacceptable if you think about it.

Gary they both measured right at 0.250" with a digital caliper. What this measurement doesn't take in account is any variation in lifter bore size or location of that bore from the retaining boss the pin sets against. But the marks in the pins definitely shows too much clearance. I think that all lifters are going to have some tendency to rotate. But allowing too much clearance, I think the lifters get a rocking motion going on, and will start the pins wearing. Also could account for wear patterns on rollers and cam lobes.

[FSG]

What this measurement doesn't take in account is any variation in lifter bore size or location of that bore from the retaining boss the pin sets against.

And it looks to me at least that the 96" cases and later have a greater bore to boss offset than the early cases.

[FSG]

I think the lifters get a rocking motion going on

All lifter rollers are crowned and self centring or at least should be and a lot will depend on the diameter of that crown.

[No Cents]

now I have to pull my p/rods out and the lifter blocks off to see where my Gaterman's clearance at.
This has me a little concerned now.   

[Ohio HD]

I think the lifters get a rocking motion going on

All lifter rollers are crowned and self centring or at least should be and a lot will depend on the diameter of that crown.

Yes, I know they should run true as designed. 

There are just so many angular and dimensional tolerances that can stack up in the cases, the cams, the lifters, it's really amazing things run as well as they do. And when we run these harder than designed at that.

[Durwood]

I just pulled a set of C's this past weekend, 2012 103 with 6900 miles, both front and rear measured .008, however the rear's were frosted and the fronts still looked new...FWIW

[joe_lyons]

What was the clearance before you took the tappet cover off?

[No Cents]

What was the clearance before you took the tappet cover off?

so...I guess what we are ideally shooting for here is .002- .003 between the lifter flat and the pin with the tappet cover in place?

[Durwood]

What was the clearance before you took the tappet cover off?

Didn't measure it prior to removal.

[joe_lyons]

I think that you would be surprised what the clearance is with the gasket pushing on the pins.  And then the gasket provides a cushion i needed.

[q1svt]

so...I guess what we are ideally shooting for here is .002- .003 between the lifter flat and the pin with the tappet cover in place?

Zippers Performance write up indicated the ideal is .002-.004 measured this way...

[No Cents]

I'm assuming that the Zipper's method of checking the clearance in between the pin and the casting...in the center is the correct way to check 
I see Brian checked his between the lifter flat and the pin...I'm guessing the same measurement would still be gotten.
Would it even be possible to do the Zipper's method measuring between the casting and the pin with the lifter block torqued down?

[q1svt]

I'm assuming that the Zipper's method of checking the clearance in between the pin and the casting...in the center is the correct way to check 
I see Brian checked his between the lifter flat and the pin...I'm guessing the same measurement would still be gotten.
Would it even be possible to do the Zipper's method measuring between the casting and the pin with the lifter block torqued down?

Believe I was the one that started the whole AR clearance discussion after a lot of researching for blue printing specifications , and Zippers is the only company that produced a procedure that anyone has found... Others and I have heard from Baisley Performance, that they too use the Zippers AR procedure. Two highly respected companies, the rest of the comments appear to be based on     
jm2c

[FSG]

Past the point of shimming.

So PHR where are you with repairing this?

[FSG]

I stopped by my bearing shop today with a stock AR Pin in hand, I was looking for alternatives to Gauge Pins.  Old Bill (20 yrs my senior, I'm 61) says to me "Gary my boy, what you have there is a common as duck chit, 1/4" x 1-3/4" Dowel Pin, about A$2/each".   

I mentioned to him what I was doing and asked about gauge pins, to which he replied, "forget gauge pins, yes you can get the diameter but they will be special order to get the length or your going to pay dearly for someone to cut them to length.  Stock dowel pins are in 1/16" increments, so get a 5/16" pin and rip 2 or 3 sides until you have the dimensions you want." 


Below is a pic of just ripping 2 sides, 1/16" off the top brings it down to .250" while the right side brings it in to .256".  It could go in flat side up or flat side down, but then perhaps 1/32" of the top and bottom might be better.

I think I'll rip a couple of each just for the hell of it.

[No Cents]

      

[Billy]

I stopped by my bearing shop today with a stock AR Pin in hand, I was looking for alternatives to Gauge Pins.  Old Bill (20 yrs my senior, I'm 61) says to me "Gary my boy, what you have there is a common as duck chit, 1/4" x 1-3/4" Dowel Pin, about A$2/each".   

I mentioned to him what I was doing and asked about gauge pins, to which he replied, "forget gauge pins, yes you can get the diameter but they will be special order to get the length or your going to pay dearly for someone to cut them to length.  Stock dowel pins are in 1/16" increments, so get a 5/16" pin and rip 2 or 3 sides until you have the dimensions you want."

You can cut gauge pins to length with a cut off wheel, then dress the cut end with a bench grinder.

[Admiral Akbar]

I stopped by my bearing shop today with a stock AR Pin in hand, I was looking for alternatives to Gauge Pins.  Old Bill (20 yrs my senior, I'm 61) says to me "Gary my boy, what you have there is a common as duck chit, 1/4" x 1-3/4" Dowel Pin, about A$2/each".   

I mentioned to him what I was doing and asked about gauge pins, to which he replied, "forget gauge pins, yes you can get the diameter but they will be special order to get the length or your going to pay dearly for someone to cut them to length.  Stock dowel pins are in 1/16" increments, so get a 5/16" pin and rip 2 or 3 sides until you have the dimensions you want." 


Below is a pic of just ripping 2 sides, 1/16" off the top brings it down to .250" while the right side brings it in to .256".  It could go in flat side up or flat side down, but then perhaps 1/32" of the top and bottom might be better.

I think I'll rip a couple of each just for the hell of it.

I like it.. I would so the one on the right but both would probably work.. It brings up the question.. Why not use a square / rectangular piece??. It would increase the surface area that the lifter runs against.. IIRC some of these lifters are used with a die stamped anti rotation plate..

Max

[Admiral Akbar]

Past the point of shimming.

So PHR where are you with repairing this?

It's fixed.. Motor has been back running for a while.. The crack didn't start life as a crack. It was part of a casting flaw.. Red routed a rectangular section that was big enough to take a block then dropped a press fit aluminum block in..

I'll see if I can get him to post the pics.
Max

[FSG]

It brings up the question.. Why not use a square / rectangular piece??. It would increase the surface area that the lifter runs against.. IIRC some of these lifters are used with a die stamped anti rotation plate..

perhaps price, stock off the shelf 1/4" dowel pins would be next to nothing in the qtys HD would buy


But I could go a rectangular one though, it's not a wear surface, just there to stop the rotation, if any, but I'k knock the corners off.

[Ohio HD]

If you used a rectangular spacer as AR devices, betters be sure it's 90 degrees to the lifter wear surface. Otherwise the corners will probably start to wear faster than the flush surface would.

[Admiral Akbar]

It brings up the question.. Why not use a square / rectangular piece??. It would increase the surface area that the lifter runs against.. IIRC some of these lifters are used with a die stamped anti rotation plate..

perhaps price, stock off the shelf 1/4" dowel pins would be next to nothing in the qtys HD would buy


But I could go a rectangular one though, it's not a wear surface, just there to stop the rotation, if any, but I'k knock the corners off.

I like it but I'd chamfer all the edges.. That way you can use any side..

Max

[FSG]

   a machinist would probably say it's just as easy to fully radius both corners as is knock two corners off. 

Which gets us back to this shape, but starting with rectangular stock rather than round.

[FSG]

I like it but I'd chamfer all the edges.. That way you can use any side..

I'm thinking it to be wider than high so it's only go in one way.