Where's my 5-10 horsepower?

[ihatecats78]

A little background first:

Before I get started with this discussion, I'll state that I'm aware that different dynos produce different numbers.  I'm aware of the difference between STD and SAE dyno sheets.  I still feel like even on a stingy dyno, my numbers are short 5-10 hp.

I started my mods with a TMAN 600SM Cam, AN Big Sucker, a V&H ProPipe, and PCV.  The tuner was able to get 98hp and 107 lb/ft (STD) from the build.  The tune wasn't very thorough and I had a lot of studder down low, the bike was running rich etc. etc.  I'm pretty sure I had a canned map for everything but WOT. 

I thought that the bike might like a little more compression (TMan site recommends 10.1 to 10.2 for the 600SM) and I felt like as long as the heads were off, that they should be ported.  I also wanted someone to do a better job with the tune, so I got a TTS at the recommendation of several members here, all of whom know much more than I did at the time (or currently for that matter). 

After having the bike retuned (this time with a reputable tuner) with the exact same set-up + head porting, the bike pulled 94hp SAE.  The tuner pulled the plug out of my pipe and was able to get 98hp SAE (101 STD) out of the bike, but he said that was all she had.  I believe him.

I've done the following:

Compression test - Front was 200ccp, Rear was 190.
Sumping check - no issues there.
Air filter check - good
Exhaust leak check - good
Cams checked to ensure timing was not off - good

I'm having the dealer do a compression leak-down test while I have it in the shop for services this weekend.  No results there yet.

What else could I be checking for?

Note: I had just had my oil changed before I had the bike tuned. When I brought the bike in for services/compression leak-down test, the dealer commented on how black my oil was (I use 100% synthetic - whether that matters or not).  I know that bike gets run hard on the dyno, but it had only been ridden about 100 miles since the last oil change before it was put on that dyno.

Is there some problem with the engine that might make the oil get dirty like that so quickly? 

Thanks for any replies.  I look forward to this discussion.

James

[hrdtail78]

Have you done a leak down?  Bad ring seal can cause dirty oil.

[ihatecats78]

Have you done a leak down?  Bad ring seal can cause dirty oil.

Thanks for the response hrdtail.

Dealer is doing one on Tuesday.  I've tried to study up on leak-down tests so that I can make the most of the information they give me about the test. 

If I've studied correctly, a bad ring seal would mean that they would get air/hissing in the oil fill or engine breather tube.  Am I correct?

[prodrag1320]

what CID?

[hrdtail78]

If it has adjustable PR.   Do the test at TDC, BDC, and mid stroke.

[ihatecats78]

what CID?

Its a 2013 Softail..  103 CID. 

Sorry - should have included that originally.

[ihatecats78]

If it has adjustable PR.   Do the test at TDC, BDC, and mid stroke.

Thanks again. 

I'll talk to the mechanic about that and make sure he includes those steps.  Again, I'm trying to get educated on this process. 

I'm assuming that by testing at those piston positions (sorry if my lingo is not correct), I'm looking for possible scoring or damage to the cylinder walls?

[ihatecats78]

I forgot to mention...  I also had my run-out checked - it measured 5 one thousandths, which is well within spec I believe.

[redmtrckl]

Check to see if the throttle butterfly is opening all the way.

[BUBBIE]

Mentioning 100 miles on a new oil change...

DOES/DID the dyno operator use Enough COOLING to allow the bike Not to over heat?

Black oil that quick?  Did YOU see the color of the oil the mechanic was talking about. Black is in the Eye of the beholder and HEAT Will change oil quickly...

signed....BUBBIE

[ihatecats78]

Mentioning 100 miles on a new oil change...

DOES/DID the dyno operator use Enough COOLING to allow the bike Not to over heat?

Black oil that quick?  Did YOU see the color of the oil the mechanic was talking about. Black is in the Eye of the beholder HEAT Will change it quickly...

signed....BUBBIE

Good question. 

I saw the oil.. Looked pretty black to me.   In this case, I would like to take tuner error out of the equation.  I'd rather not drop names because the numbers weren't as good as I hoped, but suffice it to say that this tuner is one of the best and I doubt he'd make a rookie mistake like undercooling the bike.   

[PoorUB]

Are you sure you are not just chasing numbers on a very conservative dyno? How does the "seat of the pants" dyno feel? Did the dyno operator expect more from the build?

[q1svt]

Compression test - Front was 200ccp, Rear was 190.

It's within the 10% range, but since you're questioning "Where's my 5-10 horsepower?" that's where it went...

If the 10# difference is ring gap/alignment or ring seal or scored cylinder wall the leak down data should be off on the rear... I'm guessing that the cylinders were setup the same (deck height, ring gaps, head CC's, etc) so the drop will most likely be blowby (not valve leakage) and would cause the dirty oil.

If it has adjustable PR.   Do the test at TDC, BDC, and mid stroke.

Why only if adjustable?

[ihatecats78]

Are you sure you are not just chasing numbers on a very conservative dyno? How does the "seat of the pants" dyno feel? Did the dyno operator expect more from the build?

The dyno operator was expecting more too.  The bike feels better, more responsive etc.  That's probably a product of a better tune more than anything else. 

[ihatecats78]

Compression test - Front was 200ccp, Rear was 190.

It's within the 10% range, but since you're questioning "Where's my 5-10 horsepower?" that's where it went...

If the 10# difference is ring gap/alignment or ring seal or scored cylinder wall the leak down data should be off on the rear... I'm guessing that the cylinders were setup the same (deck height, ring gaps, head CC's, etc) so the drop will most likely be blowby (not valve leakage) and would cause the dirty oil.

If it has adjustable PR.   Do the test at TDC, BDC, and mid stroke.

Why only if adjustable?

You're probably onto something here.  I'm hoping that the leak-down test will confirm this. 

Of course, then I have to fix the problem.  Awesome.

[FlaHeatWave]

Compression test - Front was 200ccp, Rear was 190.

It's within the 10% range, but since you're questioning "Where's my 5-10 horsepower?" that's where it went...

If the 10# difference is ring gap/alignment or ring seal or scored cylinder wall the leak down data should be off on the rear... I'm guessing that the cylinders were setup the same (deck height, ring gaps, head CC's, etc) so the drop will most likely be blowby (not valve leakage) and would cause the dirty oil.

If it has adjustable PR.   Do the test at TDC, BDC, and mid stroke.

Why only if adjustable?

You can back off the (adjustable) pushrods and have the valves closed at other than TDC

[Merc63]

What size is the throttle body?

Do a run with the air filter off.

[q1svt]

Compression test - Front was 200ccp, Rear was 190.

It's within the 10% range, but since you're questioning "Where's my 5-10 horsepower?" that's where it went...

If the 10# difference is ring gap/alignment or ring seal or scored cylinder wall the leak down data should be off on the rear... I'm guessing that the cylinders were setup the same (deck height, ring gaps, head CC's, etc) so the drop will most likely be blowby (not valve leakage) and would cause the dirty oil.

If it has adjustable PR.   Do the test at TDC, BDC, and mid stroke.

Why only if adjustable?

You can back off the (adjustable) pushrods and have the valves closed at other than TDC

I check @ TDC & mid... missed the BDC, tks

[hrdtail78]

If they are adjustable they are easy enough too collapse and readjust. The BDC reading isn't worth removal of rocker supports.

[ihatecats78]

What size is the throttle body?

Do a run with the air filter off.

Throttle body is stock.  Too late to do a run with the air filter off.   The bike isn't at the dyno anymore.

[VDeuce]

What size is the throttle body?

Do a run with the air filter off.

Throttle body is stock.

This is likely limiting you, considering the heads are ported (at least I am thinking they are from your post). You could also look into a different pipe... But then you are into more tuning again. One of the reasons I like Power Vision if combinations are changing, which many of us seem to do.

[Merc63]

Yep you can't do all these mods and leave the mouth of the engine untouched and expect good gains.  Everything has to work together towards a common goal.  You need a larger tb, 58mm or so and max flow air filter.

[sfmichael]

 

[05fatboy95]

Mentioning 100 miles on a new oil change...

DOES/DID the dyno operator use Enough COOLING to allow the bike Not to over heat?

Black oil that quick?  Did YOU see the color of the oil the mechanic was talking about. Black is in the Eye of the beholder HEAT Will change it quickly...

signed....BUBBIE

Good question. 

I saw the oil.. Looked pretty black to me.   In this case, I would like to take tuner error out of the equation.  I'd rather not drop names because the numbers weren't as good as I hoped, but suffice it to say that this tuner is one of the best and I doubt he'd make a rookie mistake like undercooling the bike.   

I am very surprised that dyno tuner didn't pull the air filter off and do a pull. Being you both felt the numbers where low.   

[TorQuePimp]

  On this build the TB isn't crippling you that bad if at all......boring it and some work will help averages but id look elsewhere.

   If confirmed the cylinders are sealing id yank the heads and equalize the heads and maybe get the thing to 195 ccp and be done with it.

   Who picked the cam for this foray ?

[ihatecats78]

  On this build the TB isn't crippling you that bad if at all......boring it and some work will help averages but id look elsewhere.

   If confirmed the cylinders are sealing id yank the heads and equalize the heads and maybe get the thing to 195 ccp and be done with it.

   Who picked the cam for this foray ?

The cam was picked by an Indy shop in Tacoma, WA.  I did a lot of research and studied up on cams, lift, LSA etc., and felt like this was a cam that would deliver what I was looking for - which was a decent bottom end, strong midrange, and a good top end.  I don't think the cam is the problem.  I actually spoke to Tman himself about what the cam would deliver and I was impressed both by his knowledge and his willingness to stand behind his product. 

The pipe, on the other hand, was not picked with max performance in mind.  At the time, I lived in a very quiet neighborhood with vocal neighbors and a vicious HOA.  I wanted something that would improve performance, but just as importantly, not be too loud.  Again, I feel like the pipe delivered.

The bike ran terribly when I got it because that shop didn't know how to tune worth a chit.  After the latest tune, it runs smooth - the numbers just aren't quite there...  which is why I'm presenting the question here. 

I appreciate all of the input gentlemen.  Keep it coming!!

[laserp]

Did you check to make sure the cam timing isn't off a tooth? 10 CCP between cylinders seems like a lot to be off.

[ihatecats78]

Did you check to make sure the cam timing isn't off a tooth? 10 CCP between cylinders seems like a lot to be off.

Yep.. that was the first thing we checked.  They were good to go.

[WI Bob]

Not one word about that exhaust? 
Put the sheet up for the tuners to see. This will likely help.

[jam65]

What was the break in procedure?

[ihatecats78]

Not one word about that exhaust? 
Put the sheet up for the tuners to see. This will likely help.

Ask and ye shall receive. 

The brown is the tune I did with VTune
The blue is the tune without the plug removed from the ProPipe.
Red is the final tune without the plug.



[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[BVHOG]

Who did the head work and what did they do?

[ihatecats78]

What was the break in procedure?

Nothing special...  By that I mean there was no formula.

I went easy on it for the first 500 miles - per HD recommendations.  Then I rode normally for another 500 miles before putting on any mods.

Probably the hardest this bike has been ridden/beaten has been during tuning - both my Vtuning and whatever was done by the pros.

[TorQuePimp]

Who did the head work and what did they do?

  Dewey...kinda interested in that myself

might just be one of those low reading Dynojets

[ihatecats78]

Who did the head work and what did they do?

Here's the specs and head flow info.  The rear numbers are very similar to the front. 

Don Dorfman has a great rep and has been fantastic to work with.  One of the more knowledgeable guys I've had the pleasure of speaking with. 

On a side note.  I've learned more about my engine because of the problems I've had than I ever would have otherwise.  I like that everyone is chiming in here.

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[gsxrboy96]

Who did the head work and what did they do?

  Dewey...kinda interested in that myself

might just be one of those low reading Dynojets

we have one of those, seems to cost us business since it doesn't inflate numbers like a lot of dynos around here

[ihatecats78]

Who did the head work and what did they do?

  Dewey...kinda interested in that myself

might just be one of those low reading Dynojets

we have one of those, seems to cost us business since it doesn't inflate numbers like a lot of dynos around here

Not sure whether it reads low, high, or somewhere in the middle.  The tuner was expecting more though. 

[q1svt]

Who did the head work and what did they do?

  Dewey...kinda interested in that myself

might just be one of those low reading Dynojets

we have one of those, seems to cost us business since it doesn't inflate numbers like a lot of dynos around here

Not sure whether it reads low, high, or somewhere in the middle.  The tuner was expecting more though.

Here's another one that spec'ed close to yours  http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,50417.msg529291.html#msg529291

Tatoo's comes on sooner but it's running a 2-1-2 pipe, compared to the VH pro...

Yours is soft on compression, get the CCP's fix for the rear cylinder and should be a nice performance bump. Front is doing all the work and being slowed down by the rear. Hopefully it's just a misalignment of the ring gaps...

[ihatecats78]

Who did the head work and what did they do?

  Dewey...kinda interested in that myself

might just be one of those low reading Dynojets

we have one of those, seems to cost us business since it doesn't inflate numbers like a lot of dynos around here

Not sure whether it reads low, high, or somewhere in the middle.  The tuner was expecting more though.

Here's another one that spec'ed close to yours  http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,50417.msg529291.html#msg529291

Tatoo's comes on sooner but it's running a 2-1-2 pipe, compared to the VH pro...

Yours is soft on compression, get the CCP's fix for the rear cylinder and should be a nice performance bump. Front is doing all the work and being slowed down by the rear. Hopefully it's just a misalignment of the ring gaps...

Yep... I'm thinking you're right.    Hopefully the tech doing the leak down testing knows what he's doing.  If not, I'll bet there's someone within a few hours of Fort Leonard Wood who does.  Thanks for the feedback!

[TorQuePimp]

  Ok if those heads flow what dorfman stated in those sheets......airflow is not the problem with this build

[q1svt]

That will let your know if it's valve or rings...

Your CCP @ 200/190 already pointed you to the general issues, it's tuff to get performance out of any motor with that much difference
Front @ 10.33/CCP 200 = about 9.56:1 corrected compression
Rear @ 9.93/CCP 190 = about 9.18:1 corrected compression

Would double check the CCP to confirm numbers

Big Bozs cal...

[ihatecats78]

That will let your know if it's valve or rings...

Your CCP @ 200/190 already pointed you to the general issues, it's tuff to get performance out of any motor with that much difference
Front @ 10.33/CCP 200 = about 9.56:1 corrected compression
Rear @ 9.93/CCP 190 = about 9.18:1 corrected compression

Would double check the CCP to confirm numbers

Big Bozs cal...

Seems like something I could check myself pretty easily.  I know this is off topic, but what should I pay for a good compression testing kit? 

[PoorUB]

Yep you can't do all these mods and leave the mouth of the engine untouched and expect good gains.  Everything has to work together towards a common goal.  You need a larger tb, 58mm or so and max flow air filter.

I have seen many dyno runs over the years with engines running just over 100  HP with stock throttle bodies. The throttle body is not his problem.

[TorQuePimp]

That will let your know if it's valve or rings...

Your CCP @ 200/190 already pointed you to the general issues, it's tuff to get performance out of any motor with that much difference
Front @ 10.33/CCP 200 = about 9.56:1 corrected compression
Rear @ 9.93/CCP 190 = about 9.18:1 corrected compression

Would double check the CCP to confirm numbers

Big Bozs cal...

Seems like something I could check myself pretty easily.  I know this is off topic, but what should I pay for a good compression testing kit?

   I have an OTC I think $60   and a matco that was $79 approx. somewhere around there.....don't buy a junk Chinese one

[harleywood]

How many miles on your oil?
Ok, I re-read through the thread and saw where you stated the oil had only 100 miles on it before the dyno work. If your synthetic oil turned black that quickly, you very likely have a bad crank. This is a different issue from excessive runout, btw. This will also suck 5-10 hp off the top depending on how bad it is.

[BUBBIE]

If the ccc Gauge is just a cheapE AS the numbers for front and rear are the important thing here for the check you need to do and they have done... Not too concerned about Exact ccc in a $$$$$$ gauge and the Low $ gauge to be correct BUT the front to rear numbers are what needs to be considered... Being that far apart
(even acceptable at 10%) on the same build front and back would not be what i would accept. I would Regardless of cause, tear into it after testing and Re-do the rear to match the front. Could be a broken ring or or or....... MEASURE.....how the pistons to heads fit... (decked)

signed....BUBBIE

[ihatecats78]

How many miles on your oil?
Ok, I re-read through the thread and saw where you stated the oil had only 100 miles on it before the dyno work. If your synthetic oil turned black that quickly, you very likely have a bad crank. This is a different issue from excessive runout, btw. This will also suck 5-10 hp off the top depending on how bad it is.

I attached some pics of the oil for reference... Looks like Guinness, but I wouldn't drink it.


Can you explain to me why you think that I have a bad crank rather than ring/seal issues?  It's pretty expensive and time consuming to get that deep into the engine. 

Why would runout not account for this problem?

What specifically would be wrong with the crank in this case?

Note:  Looking back and thinking about what I did after the oil change.  This is probably closer to 150 miles...  Plus a ton of dyno runs.  Still looks like swamp water, but I want accurate assessments. 

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[harleywood]

How many miles on your oil?
Ok, I re-read through the thread and saw where you stated the oil had only 100 miles on it before the dyno work. If your synthetic oil turned black that quickly, you very likely have a bad crank. This is a different issue from excessive runout, btw. This will also suck 5-10 hp off the top depending on how bad it is.

I attached some pics of the oil for reference... Looks like Guinness, but I wouldn't drink it.


Can you explain to me why you think that I have a bad crank rather than ring/seal issues?  It's pretty expensive and time consuming to get that deep into the engine. 

Why would runout not account for this problem?

What specifically would be wrong with the crank in this case?

Note:  Looking back and thinking about what I did after the oil change.  This is probably closer to 150 miles...  Plus a ton of dyno runs.  Still looks like swamp water, but I want accurate assessments.

Yep, that's definitely black. The big end (rod) bearings get 'stiff' and create a lot of heat and rob horsepower from the resulting parasitic loss. We've replaced six of these in the last year for this very issue and the two complaints were loss of power and black oil. Synthetic oil can tolerate up to 500 deg, so for it to turn black means significant heat or contamination. One way to check is to pull the heads and clylinders, then check to make sure the rods move freely with NO resistance. You may need to rotate the crank and check rod movement throughout the full crank rotation. Sometimes, there is just one location where the rod movement stiffens up. The last couple of cranks we had, the rods would literally  hold whatever position you moved them to, even with the weight of the piston still on it. Others, the bare rod would have a spot in the rotation where a slight resistance could be felt. What they all had in common was the oil turning Guinness black within just a couple thousand miles or less.

[ihatecats78]

How many miles on your oil?
Ok, I re-read through the thread and saw where you stated the oil had only 100 miles on it before the dyno work. If your synthetic oil turned black that quickly, you very likely have a bad crank. This is a different issue from excessive runout, btw. This will also suck 5-10 hp off the top depending on how bad it is.

I attached some pics of the oil for reference... Looks like Guinness, but I wouldn't drink it.


Can you explain to me why you think that I have a bad crank rather than ring/seal issues?  It's pretty expensive and time consuming to get that deep into the engine. 

Why would runout not account for this problem?

What specifically would be wrong with the crank in this case?

Note:  Looking back and thinking about what I did after the oil change.  This is probably closer to 150 miles...  Plus a ton of dyno runs.  Still looks like swamp water, but I want accurate assessments.

Yep, that's definitely black. The big end (rod) bearings get 'stiff' and create a lot of heat and rob horsepower from the resulting parasitic loss. We've replaced six of these in the last year for this very issue and the two complaints were loss of power and black oil. Synthetic oil can tolerate up to 500 deg, so for it to turn black means significant heat or contamination. One way to check is to pull the heads and clylinders, then check to make sure the rods move freely with NO resistance. You may need to rotate the crank and check rod movement throughout the full crank rotation. Sometimes, there is just one location where the rod movement stiffens up. The last couple of cranks we had, the rods would literally  hold whatever position you moved them to, even with the weight of the piston still on it. Others, the bare rod would have a spot in the rotation where a slight resistance could be felt. What they all had in common was the oil turning Guinness black within just a couple thousand miles or less.

Any idea what could cause this?  Were these newer bikes (mine is a 2013).

The only reason I have to doubt that it's a crank issue is that my ccps are lower in the rear cylinder (indicating an issue with only one cylinder).  If it were a crank problem, shouldn't my compression numbers be roughly the same?

[Matt C]

might just be one of those low reading Dynojets

we have one of those, seems to cost us business since it doesn't inflate numbers like a lot of dynos around here

I don't see how one can differ all that much from another. As long as the drum weight and software are the same.

[harleywood]

How many miles on your oil?
Ok, I re-read through the thread and saw where you stated the oil had only 100 miles on it before the dyno work. If your synthetic oil turned black that quickly, you very likely have a bad crank. This is a different issue from excessive runout, btw. This will also suck 5-10 hp off the top depending on how bad it is.

I attached some pics of the oil for reference... Looks like Guinness, but I wouldn't drink it.


Can you explain to me why you think that I have a bad crank rather than ring/seal issues?  It's pretty expensive and time consuming to get that deep into the engine. 

Why would runout not account for this problem?

What specifically would be wrong with the crank in this case?

Note:  Looking back and thinking about what I did after the oil change.  This is probably closer to 150 miles...  Plus a ton of dyno runs.  Still looks like swamp water, but I want accurate assessments.

Yep, that's definitely black. The big end (rod) bearings get 'stiff' and create a lot of heat and rob horsepower from the resulting parasitic loss. We've replaced six of these in the last year for this very issue and the two complaints were loss of power and black oil. Synthetic oil can tolerate up to 500 deg, so for it to turn black means significant heat or contamination. One way to check is to pull the heads and clylinders, then check to make sure the rods move freely with NO resistance. You may need to rotate the crank and check rod movement throughout the full crank rotation. Sometimes, there is just one location where the rod movement stiffens up. The last couple of cranks we had, the rods would literally  hold whatever position you moved them to, even with the weight of the piston still on it. Others, the bare rod would have a spot in the rotation where a slight resistance could be felt. What they all had in common was the oil turning Guinness black within just a couple thousand miles or less.

Any idea what could cause this?  Were these newer bikes (mine is a 2013).

The only reason I have to doubt that it's a crank issue is that my ccps are lower in the rear cylinder (indicating an issue with only one cylinder).  If it were a crank problem, shouldn't my compression numbers be roughly the same?

Not sure what the cause is. Most have been covered under warranty as yours could be as it is a 2013- if your dealer is good guy. But, yes, all have been late model, 2010-2013. The last one we did was on a 2012 Limited with a SE Stage IV kit. Previous tuner couldn't get it over 109, then subsequently it dropped to 107 max. Then the owner told me his oil was turning black. We pulled it down to the cases, and sure enough, it was tight. New crank, etc. and we retuned-got 115.2hp. No more black oil.

There is always going to be some variation in compression readings. Was the throttle open all the way, engine warm/cold, how many revolutions did the engine spin, etc... A 5% difference is not unreasonable and I've not seen a compression variation such as yours make the oil turn black. Excessive contamination, sure, but you should pick up a fuel odor in the oil.

[ihatecats78]

How many miles on your oil?
Ok, I re-read through the thread and saw where you stated the oil had only 100 miles on it before the dyno work. If your synthetic oil turned black that quickly, you very likely have a bad crank. This is a different issue from excessive runout, btw. This will also suck 5-10 hp off the top depending on how bad it is.

I attached some pics of the oil for reference... Looks like Guinness, but I wouldn't drink it.


Can you explain to me why you think that I have a bad crank rather than ring/seal issues?  It's pretty expensive and time consuming to get that deep into the engine. 

Why would runout not account for this problem?

What specifically would be wrong with the crank in this case?

Note:  Looking back and thinking about what I did after the oil change.  This is probably closer to 150 miles...  Plus a ton of dyno runs.  Still looks like swamp water, but I want accurate assessments.

Yep, that's definitely black. The big end (rod) bearings get 'stiff' and create a lot of heat and rob horsepower from the resulting parasitic loss. We've replaced six of these in the last year for this very issue and the two complaints were loss of power and black oil. Synthetic oil can tolerate up to 500 deg, so for it to turn black means significant heat or contamination. One way to check is to pull the heads and clylinders, then check to make sure the rods move freely with NO resistance. You may need to rotate the crank and check rod movement throughout the full crank rotation. Sometimes, there is just one location where the rod movement stiffens up. The last couple of cranks we had, the rods would literally  hold whatever position you moved them to, even with the weight of the piston still on it. Others, the bare rod would have a spot in the rotation where a slight resistance could be felt. What they all had in common was the oil turning Guinness black within just a couple thousand miles or less.

Any idea what could cause this?  Were these newer bikes (mine is a 2013).

The only reason I have to doubt that it's a crank issue is that my ccps are lower in the rear cylinder (indicating an issue with only one cylinder).  If it were a crank problem, shouldn't my compression numbers be roughly the same?

Not sure what the cause is. Most have been covered under warranty as yours could be as it is a 2013- if your dealer is good guy. But, yes, all have been late model, 2010-2013. The last one we did was on a 2012 Limited with a SE Stage IV kit. Previous tuner couldn't get it over 109, then subsequently it dropped to 107 max. Then the owner told me his oil was turning black. We pulled it down to the cases, and sure enough, it was tight. New crank, etc. and we retuned-got 115.2hp. No more black oil.

There is always going to be some variation in compression readings. Was the throttle open all the way, engine warm/cold, how many revolutions did the engine spin, etc... A 5% difference is not unreasonable and I've not seen a compression variation such as yours make the oil turn black. Excessive contamination, sure, but you should pick up a fuel odor in the oil.

Actually, there is a fuel odor in the oil - pretty strong too.  Now we're getting somewhere. 

I'm thinking this is a problem, but better than the crank being all jacked up if you ask me.  I just ordered a matco compression tester, and I'll reconfirm the numbers my tuner got. 

Can anyone help me narrow down what issues could cause the oil to smell like fuel, given the difference in cylinder compression?  Could is still be one of the valves, or is this looking more like a ring issue?

[Admiral Akbar]

might just be one of those low reading Dynojets

we have one of those, seems to cost us business since it doesn't inflate numbers like a lot of dynos around here

I don't see how one can differ all that much from another. As long as the drum weight and software are the same.

You just answered it..

Max

[speed limit]

if your oil is discoloring prematurely you most likely have blow by poor ring seal a leak down test will confirm that.

[ihatecats78]

if your oil is discoloring prematurely you most likely have blow by poor ring seal a leak down test will confirm that.

Nothing from the leak-down test.... I'm betting that they didn't test at BDC or mid stroke. I'm going to have to take this bike to a Shop where the techs know what they're doing.

[harleywood]

Actually, there is a fuel odor in the oil - pretty strong too.  Now we're getting somewhere. 

I'm thinking this is a problem, but better than the crank being all jacked up if you ask me.  I just ordered a matco compression tester, and I'll reconfirm the numbers my tuner got. 

Can anyone help me narrow down what issues could cause the oil to smell like fuel, given the difference in cylinder compression?  Could is still be one of the valves, or is this looking more like a ring issue?
[/quote]

Fuel smell in the oil? Leaky injector possibly. Do you have a fuel smell when the bike is parked? Also, an excessively rich tune. FWIW, the engine stays in a 'start enrichment' mode for up to two minutes when started regardless of temp.

[BUBBIE]

 

Affirms to me that the ring or rings are the culprit like thought before... Fuel goes by IN the Blow By...

signed....BUBBIE

[ihatecats78]

Actually, there is a fuel odor in the oil - pretty strong too.  Now we're getting somewhere. 

I'm thinking this is a problem, but better than the crank being all jacked up if you ask me.  I just ordered a matco compression tester, and I'll reconfirm the numbers my tuner got. 

Can anyone help me narrow down what issues could cause the oil to smell like fuel, given the difference in cylinder compression?  Could is still be one of the valves, or is this looking more like a ring issue?

Fuel smell in the oil? Leaky injector possibly. Do you have a fuel smell when the bike is parked? Also, an excessively rich tune. FWIW, the engine stays in a 'start enrichment' mode for up to two minutes when started regardless of temp.
[/quote]

No fuel smell when the bike is sitting. the tune want bad (maybe a little rich in some places)  prior to the tune. After the tune, everything is. right where it should be.

Right now Ineed to figure out how to figure out. whether or not this is a ring problem without tearing into  the engine. It sucks that the leak-down test didn't show anything.

[harleywood]

A leak down of less than 5% is good. Now, excess fuel can wash down the cylinder walls and end up in the oil causing oil dilution. However, black is most always heat (diesels excluded-that would be soot). I've seen plenty of fuel diluted oil that was still the relatively normal color. Black, think carbon.

[TorQuePimp]

might just be one of those low reading Dynojets

we have one of those, seems to cost us business since it doesn't inflate numbers like a lot of dynos around here

I don't see how one can differ all that much from another. As long as the drum weight and software are the same.

You just answered it..

Max

  According to the fine folks at dynojet that is the only way to make them show larger numbers......the ones that read lower ......just do

   Kinda funny that you see a baseline on some of these dynos that look legit if not a tick low......then after the mods we have the glory runs 

[Admiral Akbar]

  According to the fine folks at dynojet that is the only way to make them show larger numbers......the ones that read lower ......just do

There are more ways..  Thy just don't want to admit to them...

Kinda funny that you see a baseline on some of these dynos that look legit if not a tick low......then after the mods we have the glory runs 

That is one way to make a happy dyno look legit..

Max

[Matt C]

So how would you take weight off the drum? That thing looks to be solid, one piece. ?!?

[Admiral Akbar]

So how would you take weight off the drum? That thing looks to be solid, one piece. ?!?

It's not but you could trim some off the side...


Max

[harleywood]

Put Amsoil in the bearings-it'll spin easier....

[ihatecats78]

So how would you take weight off the drum? That thing looks to be solid, one piece. ?!?

There's probably a "how to cheat your unsuspecting customers by fudging your dyno numbers" thread in the AFR tuning zone.  I'd like this thread not to head down that path.  Thanks.

Now back to me and my search for missing horsepower -

What about injectors?  I did a data run and found that my injectors are (at higher rpm and TPS%) exceeding 90% of max pulse width with the stock injectors.  This doesn't happen often, but it seems like I'm awful close to the limits here. 

Any thoughts?

[harleywood]

Yep, that would indicate your injectors are staying open almost continuously. Need to look at the AFR in that area as well. If it is leaning out, it could be time for bigger injectors.

[ihatecats78]

Hopefully you all can see what I tried to do with this graph.  All of the Red is WOT or close to it.  Around 5k RPM I start to fall out of the optimum range according to the TTS instruction manual.

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[1FSTRK]

Did you get an O2 reading during the WOT run?
One thing to check would be fuel pressure, those injectors should make more power at that duty cycle if they are running at full pressure.