Where's my 5-10 horsepower?

[ihatecats78]

  On this build the TB isn't crippling you that bad if at all......boring it and some work will help averages but id look elsewhere.

   If confirmed the cylinders are sealing id yank the heads and equalize the heads and maybe get the thing to 195 ccp and be done with it.

   Who picked the cam for this foray ?

The cam was picked by an Indy shop in Tacoma, WA.  I did a lot of research and studied up on cams, lift, LSA etc., and felt like this was a cam that would deliver what I was looking for - which was a decent bottom end, strong midrange, and a good top end.  I don't think the cam is the problem.  I actually spoke to Tman himself about what the cam would deliver and I was impressed both by his knowledge and his willingness to stand behind his product. 

The pipe, on the other hand, was not picked with max performance in mind.  At the time, I lived in a very quiet neighborhood with vocal neighbors and a vicious HOA.  I wanted something that would improve performance, but just as importantly, not be too loud.  Again, I feel like the pipe delivered.

The bike ran terribly when I got it because that shop didn't know how to tune worth a chit.  After the latest tune, it runs smooth - the numbers just aren't quite there...  which is why I'm presenting the question here. 

I appreciate all of the input gentlemen.  Keep it coming!!

[laserp]

Did you check to make sure the cam timing isn't off a tooth? 10 CCP between cylinders seems like a lot to be off.

[ihatecats78]

Did you check to make sure the cam timing isn't off a tooth? 10 CCP between cylinders seems like a lot to be off.

Yep.. that was the first thing we checked.  They were good to go.

[WI Bob]

Not one word about that exhaust? 
Put the sheet up for the tuners to see. This will likely help.

[jam65]

What was the break in procedure?

[ihatecats78]

Not one word about that exhaust? 
Put the sheet up for the tuners to see. This will likely help.

Ask and ye shall receive. 

The brown is the tune I did with VTune
The blue is the tune without the plug removed from the ProPipe.
Red is the final tune without the plug.



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[BVHOG]

Who did the head work and what did they do?

[ihatecats78]

What was the break in procedure?

Nothing special...  By that I mean there was no formula.

I went easy on it for the first 500 miles - per HD recommendations.  Then I rode normally for another 500 miles before putting on any mods.

Probably the hardest this bike has been ridden/beaten has been during tuning - both my Vtuning and whatever was done by the pros.

[TorQuePimp]

Who did the head work and what did they do?

  Dewey...kinda interested in that myself

might just be one of those low reading Dynojets

[ihatecats78]

Who did the head work and what did they do?

Here's the specs and head flow info.  The rear numbers are very similar to the front. 

Don Dorfman has a great rep and has been fantastic to work with.  One of the more knowledgeable guys I've had the pleasure of speaking with. 

On a side note.  I've learned more about my engine because of the problems I've had than I ever would have otherwise.  I like that everyone is chiming in here.

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[gsxrboy96]

Who did the head work and what did they do?

  Dewey...kinda interested in that myself

might just be one of those low reading Dynojets

we have one of those, seems to cost us business since it doesn't inflate numbers like a lot of dynos around here

[ihatecats78]

Who did the head work and what did they do?

  Dewey...kinda interested in that myself

might just be one of those low reading Dynojets

we have one of those, seems to cost us business since it doesn't inflate numbers like a lot of dynos around here

Not sure whether it reads low, high, or somewhere in the middle.  The tuner was expecting more though. 

[q1svt]

Who did the head work and what did they do?

  Dewey...kinda interested in that myself

might just be one of those low reading Dynojets

we have one of those, seems to cost us business since it doesn't inflate numbers like a lot of dynos around here

Not sure whether it reads low, high, or somewhere in the middle.  The tuner was expecting more though.

Here's another one that spec'ed close to yours  http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,50417.msg529291.html#msg529291

Tatoo's comes on sooner but it's running a 2-1-2 pipe, compared to the VH pro...

Yours is soft on compression, get the CCP's fix for the rear cylinder and should be a nice performance bump. Front is doing all the work and being slowed down by the rear. Hopefully it's just a misalignment of the ring gaps...

[ihatecats78]

Who did the head work and what did they do?

  Dewey...kinda interested in that myself

might just be one of those low reading Dynojets

we have one of those, seems to cost us business since it doesn't inflate numbers like a lot of dynos around here

Not sure whether it reads low, high, or somewhere in the middle.  The tuner was expecting more though.

Here's another one that spec'ed close to yours  http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,50417.msg529291.html#msg529291

Tatoo's comes on sooner but it's running a 2-1-2 pipe, compared to the VH pro...

Yours is soft on compression, get the CCP's fix for the rear cylinder and should be a nice performance bump. Front is doing all the work and being slowed down by the rear. Hopefully it's just a misalignment of the ring gaps...

Yep... I'm thinking you're right.    Hopefully the tech doing the leak down testing knows what he's doing.  If not, I'll bet there's someone within a few hours of Fort Leonard Wood who does.  Thanks for the feedback!

[TorQuePimp]

  Ok if those heads flow what dorfman stated in those sheets......airflow is not the problem with this build

[q1svt]

That will let your know if it's valve or rings...

Your CCP @ 200/190 already pointed you to the general issues, it's tuff to get performance out of any motor with that much difference
Front @ 10.33/CCP 200 = about 9.56:1 corrected compression
Rear @ 9.93/CCP 190 = about 9.18:1 corrected compression

Would double check the CCP to confirm numbers

Big Bozs cal...

[ihatecats78]

That will let your know if it's valve or rings...

Your CCP @ 200/190 already pointed you to the general issues, it's tuff to get performance out of any motor with that much difference
Front @ 10.33/CCP 200 = about 9.56:1 corrected compression
Rear @ 9.93/CCP 190 = about 9.18:1 corrected compression

Would double check the CCP to confirm numbers

Big Bozs cal...

Seems like something I could check myself pretty easily.  I know this is off topic, but what should I pay for a good compression testing kit? 

[PoorUB]

Yep you can't do all these mods and leave the mouth of the engine untouched and expect good gains.  Everything has to work together towards a common goal.  You need a larger tb, 58mm or so and max flow air filter.

I have seen many dyno runs over the years with engines running just over 100  HP with stock throttle bodies. The throttle body is not his problem.

[TorQuePimp]

That will let your know if it's valve or rings...

Your CCP @ 200/190 already pointed you to the general issues, it's tuff to get performance out of any motor with that much difference
Front @ 10.33/CCP 200 = about 9.56:1 corrected compression
Rear @ 9.93/CCP 190 = about 9.18:1 corrected compression

Would double check the CCP to confirm numbers

Big Bozs cal...

Seems like something I could check myself pretty easily.  I know this is off topic, but what should I pay for a good compression testing kit?

   I have an OTC I think $60   and a matco that was $79 approx. somewhere around there.....don't buy a junk Chinese one

[harleywood]

How many miles on your oil?
Ok, I re-read through the thread and saw where you stated the oil had only 100 miles on it before the dyno work. If your synthetic oil turned black that quickly, you very likely have a bad crank. This is a different issue from excessive runout, btw. This will also suck 5-10 hp off the top depending on how bad it is.

[BUBBIE]

If the ccc Gauge is just a cheapE AS the numbers for front and rear are the important thing here for the check you need to do and they have done... Not too concerned about Exact ccc in a $$$$$$ gauge and the Low $ gauge to be correct BUT the front to rear numbers are what needs to be considered... Being that far apart
(even acceptable at 10%) on the same build front and back would not be what i would accept. I would Regardless of cause, tear into it after testing and Re-do the rear to match the front. Could be a broken ring or or or....... MEASURE.....how the pistons to heads fit... (decked)

signed....BUBBIE

[ihatecats78]

How many miles on your oil?
Ok, I re-read through the thread and saw where you stated the oil had only 100 miles on it before the dyno work. If your synthetic oil turned black that quickly, you very likely have a bad crank. This is a different issue from excessive runout, btw. This will also suck 5-10 hp off the top depending on how bad it is.

I attached some pics of the oil for reference... Looks like Guinness, but I wouldn't drink it.


Can you explain to me why you think that I have a bad crank rather than ring/seal issues?  It's pretty expensive and time consuming to get that deep into the engine. 

Why would runout not account for this problem?

What specifically would be wrong with the crank in this case?

Note:  Looking back and thinking about what I did after the oil change.  This is probably closer to 150 miles...  Plus a ton of dyno runs.  Still looks like swamp water, but I want accurate assessments. 

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[harleywood]

How many miles on your oil?
Ok, I re-read through the thread and saw where you stated the oil had only 100 miles on it before the dyno work. If your synthetic oil turned black that quickly, you very likely have a bad crank. This is a different issue from excessive runout, btw. This will also suck 5-10 hp off the top depending on how bad it is.

I attached some pics of the oil for reference... Looks like Guinness, but I wouldn't drink it.


Can you explain to me why you think that I have a bad crank rather than ring/seal issues?  It's pretty expensive and time consuming to get that deep into the engine. 

Why would runout not account for this problem?

What specifically would be wrong with the crank in this case?

Note:  Looking back and thinking about what I did after the oil change.  This is probably closer to 150 miles...  Plus a ton of dyno runs.  Still looks like swamp water, but I want accurate assessments.

Yep, that's definitely black. The big end (rod) bearings get 'stiff' and create a lot of heat and rob horsepower from the resulting parasitic loss. We've replaced six of these in the last year for this very issue and the two complaints were loss of power and black oil. Synthetic oil can tolerate up to 500 deg, so for it to turn black means significant heat or contamination. One way to check is to pull the heads and clylinders, then check to make sure the rods move freely with NO resistance. You may need to rotate the crank and check rod movement throughout the full crank rotation. Sometimes, there is just one location where the rod movement stiffens up. The last couple of cranks we had, the rods would literally  hold whatever position you moved them to, even with the weight of the piston still on it. Others, the bare rod would have a spot in the rotation where a slight resistance could be felt. What they all had in common was the oil turning Guinness black within just a couple thousand miles or less.

[ihatecats78]

How many miles on your oil?
Ok, I re-read through the thread and saw where you stated the oil had only 100 miles on it before the dyno work. If your synthetic oil turned black that quickly, you very likely have a bad crank. This is a different issue from excessive runout, btw. This will also suck 5-10 hp off the top depending on how bad it is.

I attached some pics of the oil for reference... Looks like Guinness, but I wouldn't drink it.


Can you explain to me why you think that I have a bad crank rather than ring/seal issues?  It's pretty expensive and time consuming to get that deep into the engine. 

Why would runout not account for this problem?

What specifically would be wrong with the crank in this case?

Note:  Looking back and thinking about what I did after the oil change.  This is probably closer to 150 miles...  Plus a ton of dyno runs.  Still looks like swamp water, but I want accurate assessments.

Yep, that's definitely black. The big end (rod) bearings get 'stiff' and create a lot of heat and rob horsepower from the resulting parasitic loss. We've replaced six of these in the last year for this very issue and the two complaints were loss of power and black oil. Synthetic oil can tolerate up to 500 deg, so for it to turn black means significant heat or contamination. One way to check is to pull the heads and clylinders, then check to make sure the rods move freely with NO resistance. You may need to rotate the crank and check rod movement throughout the full crank rotation. Sometimes, there is just one location where the rod movement stiffens up. The last couple of cranks we had, the rods would literally  hold whatever position you moved them to, even with the weight of the piston still on it. Others, the bare rod would have a spot in the rotation where a slight resistance could be felt. What they all had in common was the oil turning Guinness black within just a couple thousand miles or less.

Any idea what could cause this?  Were these newer bikes (mine is a 2013).

The only reason I have to doubt that it's a crank issue is that my ccps are lower in the rear cylinder (indicating an issue with only one cylinder).  If it were a crank problem, shouldn't my compression numbers be roughly the same?

[Matt C]

might just be one of those low reading Dynojets

we have one of those, seems to cost us business since it doesn't inflate numbers like a lot of dynos around here

I don't see how one can differ all that much from another. As long as the drum weight and software are the same.