stupid lighting question

[Little Al]

ok I feel silly but I'm stumped.

I'm wiring up the headlight and spots. I ground the spots to the headlight ground. I wired the hot legs for the spots to the low beam side of the head light so they come on with low beam only and the high beam is by itself. When I turn on the lights (low beam) the spots are bright as they should be, the headlight SEEMS dim. when I switch to high beam the high beam looks normally bright and the spots are on, just barely (maybe 10% of normal output, very dim yellow).

sounds like a bad ground and the tri socket for the headlight looks kind cruddy so buy a new one today, a quality one, not that cheap  junk. same deal. So then I disconnect the ground I have to the headlight (was on frame) and run a temp line directly to battery, everything stays the same, then run seperate grounds directly to battery for spots and headlight. I swapped the spots wire to the headlight to make them come on with the brights. the same except reverse, when brights are on spots look normal but brights seem ok, switch to low beam and the spots are barely on again.

so what am I missing?

[Little Al]

one more thing I just checked. voltage at the battery, completely disconnected from the bike is 12.68 hooking up the headlight directly to the battery with short pigtails (again, battery not connected to bike) low beam seams a little dull but not as dull as when hooked up "normally" running through the bike wiring. could be the same, it's just a visual perception thing. connecting the battery again the voltage at the tri plug for the headlight I get 12.61 volts, headlight not plugged in, no spots hooked up. so with such a small voltage drop it would SEEM the wiring is ok.

when I got this headlight bucket & wiring it was assembled but the wires coming from the tri plug had been cut so I made some assumptions on what wires went where. maybe I just have them wrong? does anyone know, or can check, looking at the end of the tri plug from the bulb side, I have it wired, left side ground, right side high beam and top low beam

[Little Al]

last test results for tonight (sorry, this is killing me, so simple, so frustrating!)

voltage at battery with headlight pigtailed directly to it: low beam on 12.23 volts, high beam on 12.07 volts

voltage at headlight plug with headlight plugged in: low beam on 11.62 volts, high beam on 11.28 volts

voltage at headlight plug without headlight plugged in: low beam side 12.61 volts, high beam side 12.61 volts

no spots hooked up on either test, speedo light on with both tests at the headlight plug

so with low beam on and speedo light on and using bike wiring I have a 0.61 volt drop from battery to headlight plug and that's with speedo light consumption
with high beam on and speedo light on and using bike wiring I have a 0.79 volt drop from battery to headlight plug and that's with speedo light consumption
and with nothing "on" except the speedo light I have a voltage drop through the bike wiring of 0.07. I guess I can assume the speedo light consumes a bit less then that and the wiring is the rest of the drop, but it's pretty small either way.

man, I'm really at a loss here.

[Pynzo]

Do you have your headlight wired through the terminal board that should be mounted to the backside of your triple trees? Are you using stock style fabric coated wiring? Are the bulbs all 12v? Are you using internal tooth lock washers at your lamp mount and ground strap mounting points? The problem may be that the battery you are using is a fairly low amperage, and without a generator running to supply constant amps, or to make up for the draw demand when running spots, the current draw will peak at whatever lamp has the best ground. Hook up your battery charger to the system and see what happens, I always added a pigtail quick disconnect to my battery, it makes it easier to hook up the battery tender charger especially when yor battery is deep inside the oil bag and not easily reached. 12 or 14 guage wire is best for your battery wires- better current flow, and 16 guage for the rest of the wiring. When you get to the point of starting up the motor you're gonna whant to make sure that your generator/ regulator combo doesn't exceed the amp ratings of that battery. I'd suggest a Cycle Electrics low voltage gen/reg combo but they say there may be a clearance problem with the stock footclutch. I run a model 65A generator with a Bosch regulator mounted to it, and have never cooked small batteries with this combo.

[Little Al]

the only terminal board I have is the one the coil mounts on, mounted on the pogo tube. I didn't know there was another one and when I looked through the parts book before I left for work this morning I didn't see another one anywhere.
yep, using the fabric wire
bulbs all 12 volt, although that brings up a question, their all new bulbs, the spots are from my '00 EG from when I switched to Halogens and the headlight I just bought at Autozone could something be different on these later style bulbs? dosent seem like there should be but every time I make an assumption I'm wrong! lol
got a good solid ground, I even ran temp wires directly to the battery for both grounds, headlight and separately for the spots
battery is brand new, 12 amp (see my battery thread) but I tried that this morning, hooked up the charger, 12V, 10Amps
I'm not sure of the wire gauge in the harness (bought the harness from HummerEmporium) but on my temp wires I used 14 gauge

I can add one more bit of info from playing around this morning. I had everything wired up normally except I left off the hot legs from the spots. brights & lowbeam seemed good, low beam still not as bright as I think it should be, but that really could just be me, it might have been and still be, fine. with brights on (which causes the problem) I put both spot hot leads on lowbeam side of tri plug and problem is there (spots come on very dim) BUT if I put just one (either one same result) spot hot lead on the lowbeam side it does NOT come on, low or normal. This has me thinking maybe it IS the newer style bulbs? drawing too much amperage?

I'm about as stumped as i can be, even about what else to try except for testing amperage draw for the lights and maybe just wiring a seperate switch and wires for the spots. How was it set up originally? where/what kind of switch operated the spots?

[Pynzo]

This is the one you need, fits behind the right rear tin on your Hydra Glide. This price is way cheaper than J&Ps, I buy all my Colony stuff from these guys, this Ebay store is actually Flatland MC. With this board in place you'll find it much easier to wire up all of your front lighting and everything is hidden behind the tins. What wiring diagram are you using?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Harley-1949-1957-Panhead-Colony-2305-12_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp4634Q2ec0Q2em14Q2el1262QQhashZitem350006285932QQitemZ350006285932QQptZMotorcyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

[Little Al]

well..... what wiring diagram would YOU use, lol

I tried to follow along with the locations and terminal numbers as the harness was marked, but I can't find any documentation that uses terminal numbers. I made up my own diagram based on how it seems to be set up. For example, battery to terminal block top terminal (call it T1), T1 to feed ignition switch (call it S1), ignition switch terminal that goes hot with switch in on position (call it S2) back down to terminal block T2. then everything that needs juice when ignition switch is in on position gets wired to to T2. kinda hard to explain, but I have the hand laid out diagram home, I can scan tonight.

I used the same method to have ignition switch feed juice to terminals on the block in when different positions, for lights, etc. It's actually a fairly simple layout. I'm no expert that's for sure but I made my own complete harness and my own diagram for my '83 FXR and that's been working fine for 5 years, 55K miles.

[Pynzo]

Do you have a copy of Clymer's Panhead Manual? They have a wiring diagram specific for '48 to '54 that you should take a look at. It has all the terminal #s and wire color codes. I'd copy mine, but it's a little grease stained.

[Little Al]

this is the diagram I laid out and used.
No Clymers book. Parts book & SM & Palmer's only.

[Pynzo]

Try this link:
http://www.hydra-glide.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=4412
What I did with the three prong headlight harness that came with the repop light I bought was to replace the wires with the correct color OEM type cloth covered wires. Did the same with the spotlamps. You can buy extra wire and the cloth conduit by the foot from Kick-Start MC Parts. Early HD accessorie lighting used yellow w/ black tracer wires. As far as your generator/ regulator wiring goes, let me know what setup you're gonna use and I'll draw you up a diagram to use. Do you have a 5 post ignition switch?

[Little Al]

I have that diagram, I studied it for a while before I designed my simplified one. mine is based on it for sure.

do I have a choice on what setup? lol I have a 2 post 12 volt generator (I don't know the brand or model ubtil I get home tonight to look at it) and a 3 post 12 volt relay. both came off the running bike I started my project with.

yep, 5 post ignition switch.

I'll give you the other info once I get home from work.

btw, I may be calling you for a beer saturday, I might be riding down to VA for cigarettes early saturday morning and I'll be coming back north hitting your area late afternoon. maybe I can stop and see Moose after you, he lives between us. I wont be taking the Pan of course unless you solve my light problem before then (LOL) but I will be riding one of my EG's.

[FSG]

I'm wiring up the headlight and spots. I ground the spots to the headlight ground. I wired the hot legs for the spots to the low beam side of the head light so they come on with low beam only and the high beam is by itself. When I turn on the lights (low beam) the spots are bright as they should be, the headlight SEEMS dim. when I switch to high beam the high beam looks normally bright and the spots are on, just barely (maybe 10% of normal output, very dim yellow).

I've got no tri plug to look at but it sure sounds like you have the High Beam and the Ground wires to it around the wrong way.

If that were the case the following would occur,

1:  Low Beam 12 Volts applied, Spots - OK, Low Beam Dim as current would flow in through the globes low filament and out from the high filament to ground.

2:  High Beam 12 Volts applied, High Beam OK, Spots (Dim) are getting current via the Low Beam filament as the power for high beam is applied to the filament common which is normally ground.

[Little Al]

Sir Garfield nailed it.

just got home from work and it was still daylight for a change. I went outside and checked on my '00 EG. bulb side of tri plug facing me. left high beam, right ground, top low beam. I in fact did have the high beam and the ground wires reversed. It works perfectly now that I have it wired right. Yet another 2 hours of my life wasted because I didn't know what I was doing, lol. Simplest solution is usually the right one.

[Little Al]

btw I still need a diagram or advice on wiring the generator and relay. The generator is a Custom Chrome with model #63254 with 2 terminals. between the two terminals it has 1  0 9  6 stamped into the case. I find no other markings to indicate which terminal is which. of course when i turned this bike into a basket case 2 years ago I didn't bother drawing how it was wired for future reference. This and the relay both came off the running bike (12 volt) I started out with

the relay has 3 terminals marked BAT  ARM  FLD  it's the big rectangular one, mechanical. no name on it anywhere. the only other marking anywhere on it is a "Made in USA" stamping on the mounting bracket. btw, I noticed it's always called a relay, but isn't it really a voltage regulator? now I'm not looking to start that whole timer, circuit breaker, distributor thingy again, lol, just curious.

any help offered, gladly accepted.

[Pynzo]

The generator you have is a reproduction Model 65A, it's a two brush 12v. The terminals should be marked with an "A" and an "F". It sounds like your relay (is it about 3" square?) is from an early Electra Glide, and they were mounted on the battery tray behind the rear jug. Not much space to mount it to a Rigid Panhead. If you're lucky, you got an early type Delco Remy look alike 12v regulator, and it mounts to the stock position on the right case boss above the generator mount. If that's the case, wiring will be just as the '48 to '54 diagram indicates. If you don't have this one (see picture) ,and do have the big square E.G. reg, you'll want to switch either to the look alike, or to a Bosch 12v. I like the Bosch, it was setup for XLCHs, and won't cook your battery ever. It also mounts to the end of the generator (my mounting boss was ground off to install a magneto). I don't know what the output of the lookalike reg is and can't estimate what it'll do to the battery you're using. Some of these repop generators don't have the terminals marked. On a Model 65A 12v, looking at it as it'd be mounted from the left side of the bike, the top terminal would be your "F" field terminal, and the bottom "A" armature terminal. It looks like the '48 to '54 wiring diagram has the green wire in coming off the #2 post of the ignition switch going directly to  one of the terminals on the generator, which would have been a Model 52 3 brush. The other terminal of the generator has a green wire going to the front single tab of the relay. The red wire comes off the "hot" #1 post of the ignition switch to a terminal on the relay. The question I have, and maybe someone out there can answer this for me, is which terminal on the three brush would be the "F" and which one the "A"?

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[Little Al]

I'm assuming (here I go, getting myself into trouble again) the regulator mounts on that triangular shaped bracket I have somewhere in my parts pile, on the boss you mention right front of the generator


the relay, B=BAT, A=ARM, F=FLD



and the Custom Chrome generator. I found the A and F markings once I cleaned it up a bit

[Pynzo]

That's the E.G. regulator designed for the electric start battery and will not fit on the '54 mounting bracket, plus it'll probablyfry your new small battery. Look into a new relay, I'd suggest that Delco look alike in my previous post if you want originality, and to be able to use the wiring harness you've already got. A Bosch will wire up simply, and you can use the dummy light.

[Little Al]

so of course, it begs the question, where do I get the Bosch? part number too kind sir, lol

[Little Al]

looks like this one might be the one your talking about? If it is, will this one fit my mounting bracket for stock location of the relay?

V-Twin Item Details      
   Item : 32-0625    
      
   
      
   BOSCH MECHANICAL REGULATOR, BLACK    
   FITS 1965-1978 XLCH; 12 VOLT BOSCH ZINC    
      
   
Units per Pack: 1    
   
      
   List Price: $74.83    
   In Stock Now!    
      
   

[Pynzo]

If you're tired of spending your money at J&P, try this guy- he sells direct out of the VTwin book, at better prices than J&P.
https://www.masclassics.com/vtwin/0649.php
The Look-A-Like relay #32-0071 will bolt up to the bracket you have, and use your existing wiring harness, just need to figure out which wire (both green) to hook up to the gen terminals.
The Bosch #32-0625 will need mounting bracket #31-0593, mounts up to end of generator, I had to slightly bend the mounting tabs on my Bosch to clear the downtubes of my Wishbone frame. Hot lead  12 guage red wire from #1 ignition switch post to "B+" terminal post of Bosch, Dummy light wire to "61" terminal of Bosch, 4" 14 guage green wire from "DF" terminal of Bosch to "F" terminal of Generator, 4" 14 guage red wire from "D+" terminal of Bosch to "A" terminal of Generator. Once everything is wired up, battery connected, touch a screwdriver from "B+" to "61" to polarize Generator.

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[Little Al]

you are the man!

[Pzokes]

If you're going to use the Bosch relay, make sure that both mounting bolts have the rubber  grommets in them to isolate vibration. The regulator, since it is rubber mounted needs a ground wire.  There should be a ground screw post for it on the regulator.  The Bosch is basicly a 12 volt Volkswagen Beetle regulator.

I used the Bosch for years, but use an electronic regulator now.  The best one being sold now is the Cycle Electric.  It mounts on the end of the generator.  Just make sure that generator is good.  Bad generators cause lots of problems.  If you have the money in your budget, buy a new Cycle Electric generator with regulator.  Cycle Electric bought all of the original tooling to make Harley generators, and their generator is based on the last Sportster's design.

[Pynzo]

Does it have a clearance problem with the Big Twin rocker clutch?

[Pzokes]

I'm using a Frank's Electric  electronic regulator (no longer made, Frank died) on a bike with a rocker clutch.  It is the same size mounts in the same location, and fit's OK.  I'll try to post a picture tomorrow.  I use only Frank's regulators, and because they last forever I've never had to replace them. 

[Pynzo]

I'm asking because in Cycle Electrics installation instructions for the DGV-5000 series it says to check clearance. This unit does have a very clean appearance But a big old pricetag.   

http://www.jpcycles.com/instructions/new/380-238.pdf