TTS100 CAM Data Measurements

[N-gin]

Thank you max!
Are you accepting cams to profile?
got 266e's new take outs 4miles on them

[huntch]

Max your time, effort, and explanations are much appreciated. When I get a minute I want to overlay the se255 just out of curiosity. To be honest I expected more than just an advanced cam, something with more curb appeal like assymetric... or inverse radius...
Who cares really if they work and offer an alternative to the se255 which can be a real noisy cam set. I still wonder if these will produce the same CCP characteristics that the se255 does. And that said what causes such a large delta from the calculated CCP?

I'd be interested in seeing an overlay too.

And, sorry to ask a novice question     What is "CCP" ?

[Don D]

Cranking Compression Pressure

[Steve Cole]

Max your time, effort, and explanations are much appreciated. When I get a minute I want to overlay the se255 just out of curiosity. To be honest I expected more than just an advanced cam, something with more curb appeal like assymetric... or inverse radius...
Who cares really if they work and offer an alternative to the se255 which can be a real noisy cam set. I still wonder if these will produce the same CCP characteristics that the se255 does. And that said what causes such a large delta from the calculated CCP?

I'd be interested in seeing an overlay too.

And, sorry to ask a novice question     What is "CCP" ?

"CCP" is an industrial standard for checking Cold Cranking Pressure

There are several test methods but it is basically done with the Throttle wide open and cranking a COLD engine to obtain the highest recorded pressure on the test gauge.

If you are using a calculator to try and estimate CCP and you get the wrong numbers then the calculator is flawed and should not be relied upon.

[autoworker]

If you are using a calculator to try and estimate CCP and you get the wrong numbers then the calculator is flawed and should not be relied upon.

Assuming all the data that is entered is correct. Lots of places for errors.Human and manufacturing errors are just two.

[Admiral Akbar]

Ahh yes.. The dart thrower competition.. 

[1FSTRK]

Max your time, effort, and explanations are much appreciated. When I get a minute I want to overlay the se255 just out of curiosity. To be honest I expected more than just an advanced cam, something with more curb appeal like assymetric... or inverse radius...
Who cares really if they work and offer an alternative to the se255 which can be a real noisy cam set. I still wonder if these will produce the same CCP characteristics that the se255 does. And that said what causes such a large delta from the calculated CCP?

I'd be interested in seeing an overlay too.

And, sorry to ask a novice question     What is "CCP" ?

"CCP" is an industrial standard for checking Cold Cranking Pressure

There are several test methods but it is basically done with the Throttle wide open and cranking a COLD engine to obtain the highest recorded pressure on the test gauge.

If you are using a calculator to try and estimate CCP and you get the wrong numbers then the calculator is flawed and should not be relied upon.

I have heard of Cold Cranking Amps when testing starters and batteries.

Could you please give some background references for where you are getting this "Industry Standard of Cold Cranking Pressure"

I am limited to the factory manuals from Harley, Chevy, Ford, Chrysler, my Snap-on and Craftsman compression testers and they all reference Cylinder Cranking Pressure and want it taken on a warm motor.

If they are all wrong and the SAE has a different standard or has changed it I would like to read it so that I do not continue to use an out dated practice and definition.
Thank you in advance for your time.

[hrdtail78]

http://www.bigboyzheadporting.com/TwinCamComp.htm

Somebody should let these guys know. 

....and some call it cranking compression pressure. 

[redmtrckl]

Here is an easy to use calculator. Works pretty good for me.
[attach=0]

[m1marty]

So I've doing it wrong this whole time checking on a cold motor......

[Admiral Akbar]

So I've doing it wrong this whole time checking on a cold motor......

You should do it with a cool motor (room temp) .. If you do it hot the numbers will be off by 10 psi..

[Admiral Akbar]

Thank you max!
Are you accepting cams to profile?
got 266e's new take outs 4miles on them

I could do it but am not sure why you need to.. The specs are in the SE catalog.. Might be worth doing if you suspected something wrong with them..

[Admiral Akbar]

Here you go side by side..


[attach=0]

One on top of the other..


[attach=1]

[BVHOG]

A bunch of variables that can affect measured ccp, first off not all gauges are that accurate, cranking speed has some affect, carbon build up,  lifter bleed down and actual cam specs, not just the .053 specs. To say that a calculator is not accurate just because it doesn't match actual findings is pure BS. The calculator is a baseline and cannot be expected to be 100% accurate when all the variables are factored in.

[glens]

Here you go side by side..
...
One on top of the other..

Any chance you can re-create those screen caps as PNG files instead of JPEG?

[Admiral Akbar]

Here you go side by side..
...
One on top of the other..

Any chance you can re-create those screen caps as PNG files instead of JPEG?

Why?   The report files side by side are listed above.. I can post the xlsx file..

[m1marty]

So I've doing it wrong this whole time checking on a cold motor......

You should do it with a cool motor (room temp) .. If you do it hot the numbers will be off by 10 psi..

I was being a bit of a smart ass. Tone is hard to convey via a computer screen. I've always done my checks on a room temp motor, battery charged between cylinder checks and the same number of spins best I can with the throttle wide open. Works for me.

[Admiral Akbar]

So I've doing it wrong this whole time checking on a cold motor......

You should do it with a cool motor (room temp) .. If you do it hot the numbers will be off by 10 psi..

I was being a bit of a smart ass. Tone is hard to convey via a computer screen. I've always done my checks on a room temp motor, battery charged between cylinder checks and the same number of spins best I can with the throttle wide open. Works for me.

Sorry, I missed that.. 

[glens]

Here you go side by side..
...
One on top of the other..

Any chance you can re-create those screen caps as PNG files instead of JPEG?

Why?   The report files side by side are listed above.. I can post the xlsx file..

Nasty JPEG compression artifacts make it difficult on my advanced eyes.

[attach=0]

PNG is superior for such types of bitmap images.

[attach=1]

Thanks for posting the spreadsheet.

I manipulated your original text files, but it requires a fixed-width font, so:

Code Select Expand

*** Max Heaflow Max Pro Profiler ***
Profiler Resolution Measurement: 3.6° Crankshaft Rotation Steps
Rocker Ratio:                    1.625
Recorded:                        3/21/2015

Recorded:              @ 5:06:07 PM | @ 8:37:05 PM   @ 8:00:26 PM | @ 8:57:10 PM

Cam Name / Model:             SE255 | TTS100                SE255 | TTS100

Report for:                   FrontExhaust                   RearExhaust
Tappet 0.053" opens at:  49.6° BBDC | 41.9° BBDC       49.7° BBDC | 41.0° BBDC
Tappet 0.053" closes at:  6.2° ATDC | 15.5° ATDC        6.3° ATDC | 16.9° ATDC
Duration                     235.8° | 237.4°               236.0° | 237.9°
Lobe Center                  111.7° | 103.2°               111.7° | 102.1°
Lobe  lift                    0.339 | 0.340                 0.339 | 0.340
Valve lift                    0.551 | 0.552                 0.550 | 0.553
Valve TDC Lift                0.113 | 0.163                 0.113 | 0.170

Report for:                    FrontIntake                    RearIntake
Tappet 0.053" opens at:   8.3° BTDC | 7.1° BTDC         8.3° BTDC | 6.1° BTDC
Tappet 0.053" closes at: 23.9° ABDC | 19.8° ABDC       24.7° ABDC | 21.3° ABDC
Duration                     212.2° | 206.9°               213.0° | 207.4°
Lobe Center                   97.8° | 96.4°                 98.2° | 97.6°
Lobe  lift                    0.338 | 0.350                 0.338 | 0.350
Valve lift                    0.548 | 0.569                 0.548 | 0.569
Valve TDC Lift                0.128 | 0.122                 0.128 | 0.117

Cam Lobe LSA                 104.7° | 99.8°                105.0° | 99.8°
Cam Lobe Overlap              14.5° | 22.5°                 14.6° | 23.0°

[hrdtail78]

.....and that is how it should of been posted in the first place. 

[Steve Cole]

A bunch of variables that can affect measured ccp, first off not all gauges are that accurate, cranking speed has some affect, carbon build up,  lifter bleed down and actual cam specs, not just the .053 specs. To say that a calculator is not accurate just because it doesn't match actual findings is pure BS. The calculator is a baseline and cannot be expected to be 100% accurate when all the variables are factored in.

So what is accurate enough? 5%, 10% 20% before its consider just a wag? The truth is most of these CCP calculators are in the ball park on only a few combinations, the rest of the time nothing more...........  Enter CVO 110 engine plugged into most of them and they are off by ~ 15%, if that's good enough for you so be it.

[CowboyTutt]

I haven't posted here in a while, but my experience with a very popular online calculator did not match up at ALL to real world findings using the SE 263 E cam even though we calculated the tolerances to within a "gnat's arse" in my 107.  The actual CCP was much higher, like by 25 ccp!  Dorfman knows this.   

I also once called TTS with a technical question some years ago, and I was put through to the tech department by the operator.  I was speaking to a guy named "Steve" for 10-15 minutes, when it finally dawned on me and I asked the question, "you wouldn't be Steve Cole himself, would you?"  He said yes it was, and continued to enlighten me on many years of very specific research and development in testing of camshafts that blew my mind.  I wish I had recorded the conversation, his expertise was really impressive!  I am to this day very grateful for the time he took to educate me.

I think Steve knows his stuff more than some of the internet researchers here.  He has tested all this stuff over and over. 

Regards, and thanks Steve. 

-Tutt   

[Admiral Akbar]

.....and that is how it should of been posted in the first place.

Jeeze,,, You tell Keith.. Not me... 

[CowboyTutt]

Max, thanks for all your hard work on this thread.  First class stuff!  Since I'm here for few minutes, I had an idea I would like to share with you.  The S&S 635 HO cam seems to be a camshaft of much controversy.  It MAY even use an inverse cam lobe on the exhaust, and it's real life performance seems to defy reason given it's controversial specifications.  If there were another camshaft worth testing the way you did the TTS camshaft, I would think that this camshaft would be the one. 

Any interest? 

Thanks and regards,

-Tutt 

[Admiral Akbar]

A bunch of variables that can affect measured ccp, first off not all gauges are that accurate, cranking speed has some affect, carbon build up,  lifter bleed down and actual cam specs, not just the .053 specs. To say that a calculator is not accurate just because it doesn't match actual findings is pure BS. The calculator is a baseline and cannot be expected to be 100% accurate when all the variables are factored in.

So what is accurate enough? 5%, 10% 20% before its consider just a wag? The truth is most of these CCP calculators are in the ball park on only a few combinations, the rest of the time nothing more...........  Enter CVO 110 engine plugged into most of them and they are off by ~ 15%, if that's good enough for you so be it.

I wouldn't be surprised if its more... You need to disable the auto compression releases.. 

BTW

How are my numbers?   Way off?