Tune drift

[harleytuner]

What i dont understand is having a bike in CL at idle which im 99% sure is what is happening . Regardless of O2 placement i cant see how you can possibly get a good sample at idle but i can see how it will really screw the trims up if it is indeed in close loop at that low of KPA .

Is that why you think closed-loop-at-idle is bad, that it'd be near impossible to get valid O2 sensor readings?  Or is there some other concern you have in mind?

I guess what I'd like to know is why aren't the shops that tuned the bikes helping these guys get this sorted out?

I took it as the shops that did the tuning want to charge them again and they don't have the money?? 

[2006FXDCI]

Chad , you are correct . Glen , from my little knowledge of Tuning im going to say yes closed loop tuning is bad at idle . I believe there are allot of strange things happening at idle exhaust wise . If they cant get a good sample at say 40 kpa it has to be even worse at idle IMO . Im not saying for 1 second that CL doesnt work . What i am saying is neither of these tuners can make it work with SEPST . One of the tuners has tuned my personal bike 4 different occasions after mods with TTS and it has been spot on for 6 years . Please dont think im saying CL doesnt work , my little turbo chevy cruze does great in CL !

[glens]

Are you running much closed-loop on your personal bike?  At idle?

[2006FXDCI]

Here are my AFR tables for both of my bikes

[harleytuner]

Mine usually look more like this.  I don't set that much of a reason to leave that much in closed loop.  Only the cruising range IMO.  80Kpa is well outside that range.  I just gradually richen it up as the demand and RPM go up.  But for the record, I tune in open loop then put into closed loop when I am done.  Then fine tune the closed loop area.

[2006FXDCI]

Chad , i have been wanting to change my CL map as i agree with what you are saying . Can i use your AFR table you posted to edit my CL map ? The VE table will still be good to go after the changes correct ?

[2006FXDCI]

Also my PE is set at 4300 rpm's in my CL map , isnt that to low of an rpm for PE ?

[rbabos]

Mine usually look more like this.  I don't set that much of a reason to leave that much in closed loop.  Only the cruising range IMO.  80Kpa is well outside that range.  I just gradually richen it up as the demand and RPM go up.  But for the record, I tune in open loop then put into closed loop when I am done.  Then fine tune the closed loop area.

Did I miss the memo or something? I though only 14.6 remained in closed loop. That looks full open loop to me.
Ron

[UltraNutZ]

Mine usually look more like this.  I don't set that much of a reason to leave that much in closed loop.  Only the cruising range IMO.  80Kpa is well outside that range.  I just gradually richen it up as the demand and RPM go up.  But for the record, I tune in open loop then put into closed loop when I am done.  Then fine tune the closed loop area.

Did I miss the memo or something? I though only 14.6 remained in closed loop. That looks full open loop to me.
Ron

CLB?

[rbabos]

Mine usually look more like this.  I don't set that much of a reason to leave that much in closed loop.  Only the cruising range IMO.  80Kpa is well outside that range.  I just gradually richen it up as the demand and RPM go up.  But for the record, I tune in open loop then put into closed loop when I am done.  Then fine tune the closed loop area.

Did I miss the memo or something? I though only 14.6 remained in closed loop. That looks full open loop to me.
Ron

CLB?

Clb with 14.6 yes but doesn't 14.4 run on the ve table only with no sensor influence?
Ron

[rigidthumper]

FBW uses a range for closed loop, no bias table. If the AFR desired (or lambda) is bold, it's closed loop.

[UltraNutZ]

FBW uses a range for closed loop, no bias table. If the AFR desired (or lambda) is bold, it's closed loop.

my bad..

[rbabos]

FBW uses a range for closed loop, no bias table. If the AFR desired (or lambda) is bold, it's closed loop.

Oh. Makes sense then. I've not played with those cals. I've seen them in Lambda values but not afr.
Ron

[FLTRI]

FBW uses a range for closed loop, no bias table. If the AFR desired (or lambda) is bold, it's closed loop.

Oh. Makes sense then. I've not played with those cals. I've seen them in Lambda values but not afr.
Ron

Always been the same...Desired AFR table - Bold numbers = Closed Loop
AFR or Lambda
Bob

[harleytuner]

Chad , i have been wanting to change my CL map as i agree with what you are saying . Can i use your AFR table you posted to edit my CL map ? The VE table will still be good to go after the changes correct ?

You can use this without issue.  As long as the VE tables are calibrated to your build the AFR is just the reference that you are targeting.  Change them and you should be good to go.

[harleytuner]

FBW uses a range for closed loop, no bias table. If the AFR desired (or lambda) is bold, it's closed loop.

Oh. Makes sense then. I've not played with those cals. I've seen them in Lambda values but not afr.
Ron

It makes it nice when you can go Closed Loop lower than 14.6:1  All the benefits of closed loop with a tad less heat.

[2006FXDCI]

Thanks Chad  i thought that i could change the AFR's and still be dialed in but wanted to make sure . I will do some editing in the next few days and post my changes . What RPM value do you set the PE at ? My CL bike is set at 4300 which seems too low to me . My OL bike has it set at 6000 rpm

[FLTRI]

Since you are seeing tune drift and these bikes have been "tuned" by 2 different places, I'm not convinced the VE calibration are correct which may be why you are experiencing drift.
When the VEs are right, most bikes run just fine in closed loop as the calibrations are designed.
So it becomes the responsibility of the tuner to identify O2 sensor issues and either fix the bungs or eliminate a trouble area and leave it in open loop to eliminate tune drift.
Bob

[2006FXDCI]

Bob , sorry for the confusion . The 2 AFR tables i posted are from my own bikes . The 2 bikes im speaking about tune drift havent made it back to me yet . One is coming tomorrow . They were both tuned with SEPST not TTS . I posted my AFR tables because Glen wanted to know about my AFR at idle .

[2006FXDCI]

Heres the info i pulled out of the ECM on the 2013 RG with andrews 48's using my PV to clear the learned trims . Unfortunately the guy who tuned it never saved the map to the VCI  . I have to wait for him to email the map . Can someone help me understand this data please .

[2006FXDCI]

[Steve Cole]

Those are supposed to be the stored values for the ECM. They are in percent so the first one says 90.6 so that would be 90.6 % of the VE value in the cell if it is really correct. The rest go just the same. So 4000 and up are not being used or are not working since they are at 100 % which is no change. Anything over 100% would be adding and less than taking away from the VE table.

[joe_lyons]

Steve does Tts have a way to read the adaptive fuel values?  Just wanted to double check the data that was pulled with the Power Vision.

[Steve Cole]

Not in the public software. I could not see any reason for it before and I still don't. People will just get confused since they cannot have all the pieces of the puzzle and showing you only 1 part of what it takes to make it work with no explanations, just doesn't buy you anything but confusion.

[joe_lyons]

Gotcha,  would this possibly be available to some people that are slightly more in the know?