Tune drift

[hrdtail78]

Personally, I do not think the temp tables for engine and iat are correct for v rod fueling control to be exacting enough. That would throw the adaptive in the dumpster as well and not a benifit. Almost like the air head code was used instead of one more specific to these engines.
Ron

Think all you want.  Only looking into it deeper would really tell.  All else is a guess.

You are capable of getting the MTE. Doesn't need to be mine or any other flashed vrod cal. Why not find out? In the end, does it matter, no. We can't do anything about it anyway. A guess is direction to the first step to go looking.
Ron

I don't tune vrods with vision.  I have to wait until somebody that already has the vision and a vrod to show up.  That's the MTE that I want.  What will it do?  It's a check in the block.  Yeah, we can't do anything about it, but if you did find out.  You might be able to stop blaming it, and move on to what the problem really is. 

[rbabos]

Personally, I do not think the temp tables for engine and iat are correct for v rod fueling control to be exacting enough. That would throw the adaptive in the dumpster as well and not a benifit. Almost like the air head code was used instead of one more specific to these engines.
Ron

Think all you want.  Only looking into it deeper would really tell.  All else is a guess.

You are capable of getting the MTE. Doesn't need to be mine or any other flashed vrod cal. Why not find out? In the end, does it matter, no. We can't do anything about it anyway. A guess is direction to the first step to go looking.
Ron

I don't tune vrods with vision.  I have to wait until somebody that already has the vision and a vrod to show up.  That's the MTE that I want.  What will it do?  It's a check in the block.  Yeah, we can't do anything about it, but if you did find out.  You might be able to stop blaming it, and move on to what the problem really is.

I could care less now. I can't read code and the ones that can't will remain tight lipped about it.  Bike runs fine without it and continues to do so. If I was in the business of tuning every day I'd probably like to know, or I'd just avoid the issue completely to give the best tune and avoid a come back.  The important part of all this is, it's not just me that has experienced it. Why does it bother you so much?
Ron

[FLTRI]

Define proper measuring equipment?

At least a way to read what's actually coming out of the exhaust (AFR) and a way to know exactly where you are in the calibration at any point. (logging software)

We buy flash tuners to do a simple job of diy tuning. It's marketed that way.

Shame on anyone who assumes plug and play marketing is an honest method of selling tuning products.

Then that's not good enough so we get sucked into the wideband crap...

I definitely agree.

... reweld new bungs for better sampling. "Potty mouth", could have used the NB sensors then.

Bad assumption to think if NB sensors do not get good sampling screwing in a BB/WB sensor will get better sampling.
Good to live and learn from your experiences and share so others do not have to go through it.

...risking life and limb to collect data on the road since buying a dyno is a bit extreme to tune one bike.

I've always maintained there is a huge trade off with street tuning vs hiring a professional with the experience and equipment to do the job right in a timely manner.

Guessing, well that could be your situation as well. Now go ahead and tell me the target afr is actually what the cyl actually sees.

Actually there is a bit of estimating based on experiences from same combo tunes and years of experience dealing with all the issues found working with many bikes.

Blending across, yeh that's exacting.  You mentioned placing problem areas into open loop. Sorry but you are again guessing the ve table is correct, or the damn thing wouldn't need to be placed into open , right?

The reason some area(s) need to be left in open loop is because the O2 sampling at the sensor is inadequate due to mounting and mostly, exhaust reversion.
Utilizing the dyno AFR to see anomolies brought on by poor sampling can be precisely evaluated and eliminated as an issue.
Street tuning must rely wholeheartedly on the one set of on board O2s without any way to verify is the results are based on good sampling.

..Something the software and current equipment could not achieve on it's own.

So are you are saying your guessing is better than actual data logging and AFR measurements? I maintain its best to make changes based on what is actually coming out the exhaust port/pipe.
You sold your only way to do that, right?
Bob

[rbabos]

Define proper measuring equipment?

At least a way to read what's actually coming out of the exhaust (AFR) and a way to know exactly where you are in the calibration at any point. (logging software)

We buy flash tuners to do a simple job of diy tuning. It's marketed that way.

Shame on anyone who assumes plug and play marketing is an honest method of selling tuning products.

Then that's not good enough so we get sucked into the wideband crap...

I definitely agree.

... reweld new bungs for better sampling. "Potty mouth", could have used the NB sensors then.

Bad assumption to think if NB sensors do not get good sampling screwing in a BB/WB sensor will get better sampling.
Good to live and learn from your experiences and share so others do not have to go through it.

...risking life and limb to collect data on the road since buying a dyno is a bit extreme to tune one bike.

I've always maintained there is a huge trade off with street tuning vs hiring a professional with the experience and equipment to do the job right in a timely manner.

Guessing, well that could be your situation as well. Now go ahead and tell me the target afr is actually what the cyl actually sees.

Actually there is a bit of estimating based on experiences from same combo tunes and years of experience dealing with all the issues found working with many bikes.

Blending across, yeh that's exacting.  You mentioned placing problem areas into open loop. Sorry but you are again guessing the ve table is correct, or the damn thing wouldn't need to be placed into open , right?

The reason some area(s) need to be left in open loop is because the O2 sampling at the sensor is inadequate due to mounting and mostly, exhaust reversion.
Utilizing the dyno AFR to see anomolies brought on by poor sampling can be precisely evaluated and eliminated as an issue.
Street tuning must rely wholeheartedly on the one set of on board O2s without any way to verify is the results are based on good sampling.

..Something the software and current equipment could not achieve on it's own.

So are you are saying your guessing is better than actual data logging and AFR measurements? I maintain its best to make changes based on what is actually coming out the exhaust port/pipe.
You sold your only way to do that, right?
Bob

May I remind you wb sensors are not much better the nb if the sampling is poor due to location. The error is still there. I'm saying you guess tunes every day, you just don't realise it or refuse to. Sorry to burst the bubble in your perfect world. Now go ahead and tell me you've never had a tune drift, which by the way is the topic.
Ron

[FLTRI]

May I remind you wb sensors are not much better the nb if the sampling is poor due to location. The error is still there. I'm saying you guess tunes every day, you just don't realise it or refuse to. Sorry to burst the bubble in your perfect world. Now go ahead and tell me you've never had a tune drift, which by the way is the topic.
Ron

As I stated, I use data logging and my personal experiences to determine when and where exhaust system design and/or sensor mounting preclude accurate O2 sampling.
It is an educated guess based on many mistakes and wrong assumptions over the years BUT over time, I have learned when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em.
All I'm saying is there is no good reason or excuse for seat of the pants tuning without any measurement to know what's going causing tuning issues.
Any chance of successful seat of the pants tuning went away with the carburetor, IMO.
Bob

[hrdtail78]

I could care less now. I can't read code and the ones that can't will remain tight lipped about it.  Bike runs fine without it and continues to do so. If I was in the business of tuning every day I'd probably like to know, or I'd just avoid the issue completely to give the best tune and avoid a come back.  The important part of all this is, it's not just me that has experienced it. Why does it bother you so much?
Ron

I wouldn't say bother.  What does bother me is that you continue to post on these boards about how things are rich or lean but you have never sampled.  You talk about how the code is messed up but you don't know how to read it.  Same as the tune on the softail that never got finished.  IIRC the IAT sensor was in the wrong place for the code. 

I understand this topic is about tune drift.  If you don't care about it and your golf swing gets more thought these days.  Why do you post up in it?

[rbabos]

I could care less now. I can't read code and the ones that can't will remain tight lipped about it.  Bike runs fine without it and continues to do so. If I was in the business of tuning every day I'd probably like to know, or I'd just avoid the issue completely to give the best tune and avoid a come back.  The important part of all this is, it's not just me that has experienced it. Why does it bother you so much?
Ron

I wouldn't say bother.  What does bother me is that you continue to post on these boards about how things are rich or lean but you have never sampled.  You talk about how the code is messed up but you don't know how to read it.  Same as the tune on the softail that never got finished.  IIRC the IAT sensor was in the wrong place for the code. 

I understand this topic is about tune drift.  If you don't care about it and your golf swing gets more thought these days.  Why do you post up in it?

As I pointed out to your bud, if you can't tell if an engine is rich or lean by how it behaves, choose a new line of work. It's not fking rocket science.

Ron

[FLTRI]

As I pointed out to your bud, if you can't tell if an engine is rich or lean by how it behaves, choose a new line of work. It's not fking rocket science.

Ron

So what you are really saying is you can tune your bike's AFR by your ear and seat of your pants.
Now I understand why you got rid of your AFR setup. Not needed.
If I join you and another member's philosophies I could easily come to the conclusion as a newbie here, a butt-tuned open loop bike can run just as good as a bike tuned by an experienced tuner with logging and dyno equipment in closed loop.
Bob

[upnorthbiker]

Thanks for the tips on autotune of the very low part of the map.
I've heard a lot about bad sampling from the O2 sensors and this May or may not be from the positioning.
Is there a better place to position them on the standard front pipes, and if so where ?
I could buy bungs and get them fitted at work.
Is it worth it for the stock 12mm sensors ?
Jeff

[FLTRI]

What you have now should work OK.
Not sure why only 2 discs? Normally 8-10+ open or closed?
Open end cap may be low speed tuning (O2 sample quality) culprit?
I would try 8 discs with closed end caps. If that works well you know what you have and then you can decide to leave it or put the open caps back on and take the calibration below 40kpa out of closed loop.
Bob

[q1svt]

Thanks for the tips on autotune of the very low part of the map.
I've heard a lot about bad sampling from the O2 sensors and this May or may not be from the positioning.
Is there a better place to position them on the standard front pipes, and if so where ?
I could buy bungs and get them fitted at work.
Is it worth it for the stock 12mm sensors ?
Jeff

upnorth, the O2 sampling here at HTT has been battered around almost as much as OIL...

FWIW, the guys that talk the most about it are the one's that shove a BB/WB sampling pipe up the arss of your exhaust pipe, or drill holes for O2 rivets & blocks and claim that they get a better sampling than a bunged O2...  I wonder how F/U a BB/WB bung has to be, for a pipe shoved into another pipe to gets a better sampling 

But specific to the 12mm sensors, the answer depends on the pipe in question... HD moved the senses down from near the valves to next to the exhaust X pipe and there they can get funny sampling when gas from one exhaust firing backs up into the other pipe.  Aftermarket guys have made some changes to help the matter.  But generally moving the 12mm towards the cylinder heads helps [10-12"]. But then you'll need longer wiring harness too if they're moved...

Tune driff... another oil thread.  Not saying it isn't happening but is it because the O2's are getting crossing exhaust gases or is there a software bug in gathering/applying the data...  so far a lot of talk.



But I'm with Steve Cole [from a different thread]:

If you want to run in Open or Closed Loop your choice but you know where I stand on it. Open Loop is for those not willing to spend the time to learn how to make a better performing bike, with better fuel economy in the normal riding torque/HP area over a much broader operating range! Not to mention that once you get a different tank of fuel it stays much closer on the overall tune with Closed. Just got to be smart enough to learn it all and, YES, it takes time and effort to get there.

edited: Just need to look at the horsepower that Ford, GM & Dodge cars are getting running closed loop and meeting EPA reg's 

[hrdtail78]

If your bike will run at a targeted CLB of 760 but not 700.  I'd say get your ear recalibrate.

Have fun tuning.

[rbabos]

I could care less now. I can't read code and the ones that can't will remain tight lipped about it.  Bike runs fine without it and continues to do so. If I was in the business of tuning every day I'd probably like to know, or I'd just avoid the issue completely to give the best tune and avoid a come back.  The important part of all this is, it's not just me that has experienced it. Why does it bother you so much?
Ron

I wouldn't say bother.  What does bother me is that you continue to post on these boards about how things are rich or lean but you have never sampled.  You talk about how the code is messed up but you don't know how to read it.  Same as the tune on the softail that never got finished.  IIRC the IAT sensor was in the wrong place for the code. 

I understand this topic is about tune drift.  If you don't care about it and your golf swing gets more thought these days.  Why do you post up in it?

I really don't know where you guys dream up half this crap and twist "Potty mouth" around to make you guys sound more important.  I for one won't let it slide.  My softail was put on the dyno at the dealership prior to resale. The tech had no complaints. New owner that owns several HD's likes how it runs and didn't want it retuned by them. Don't believe me, call, Rocky's Harley Davidson 519-438-1450 and ask for Wayne. Pretty sure he remembers me and the 07 FXSTC. Miss at 700 but not miss at 760 with additional log tuning, so yes my ears are fine. This is only in light load. To claim I can tell if the engine is rich or lean at WFO, well only an idiot would claim that. Try and keep that part of the story straight.
Ron

[FLTRI]

What's the AFR difference between 700 and 760 CLB?
Anybody know?
Bob

[Hilly13]

Less than .08......I believe no matter what sensors you are using you should move them to where they need to be for the pipe and muffler combo you are using, blokes go to all the trouble and cost of putting go fast bits on their engines and then ignore the 02 locations, most stock pipes work fine as they are with stock mufflers but when you change mufflers you change the characteristic's of the exhaust flow and that changes the ball game, even fast flowing complete after market systems can lead you up the garden path if they have just copied the stock locations and positioning for the sensors and not addressed the sampling requirement's for that configuration.
Just for an example of 02's in the flow here are some pics of mine, they are 18mm jobs but the theory is the same for the 12's.
[attach=0] [attach=1]

[rbabos]

What's the AFR difference between 700 and 760 CLB?
Anybody know?
Bob

Hell Bob, the whole world knows. I have the TTS program too.  Did you know this? Tune the bike at 700 and change the cruise range to 500 after the fact, there is a 10% ve correction needed to center the integrators. That's a lot more difference then there should be based of the voltage graph. This on the v rod is like 5 mpg.  Tune the bike at 700 and go back to the calibration default of 620 it will miss and buck like a bastard in the light load 2750-3500 range. That's 80 difference, again should not make any meaningful difference but it does. The negative 4* timing was ruled out during tuning to counter any effect of change due to timing. Cal was set to +4 so it would originally tune at set timing because Basic pulls 4 during auto tune runs.
So, just how accurate are these clb numbers then?  
Ron

[hrdtail78]

Wow, the vrod has a much more sophisticated combustion chamber than I ever thought possible.  Or the numbers you throw around are just targeted numbers and have nothing to do what the combustion chamber is actually seeing.   

The vrods I have tuned were never that sensitive to afr changes.  Matter of fact.  They run and work like most other internal combustion engines.  In a wide range of afr.

[rbabos]

Wow, the vrod has a much more sophisticated combustion chamber than I ever thought possible.  Or the numbers you throw around are just targeted numbers and have nothing to do what the combustion chamber is actually seeing.   

The vrods I have tuned were never that sensitive to afr changes.  Matter of fact.  They run and work like most other internal combustion engines.  In a wide range of afr.

The numbers I throw around are from logs, blah blah blah. I didn't pull them out of my ass . So whenever you do get around to tune a rod with PV, get back to me and we can compare notes. At the moment you are assuming. That's one step before guessing.
Ron

[joe_lyons]

Damn Vrods

[hrdtail78]

Wow, the vrod has a much more sophisticated combustion chamber than I ever thought possible.  Or the numbers you throw around are just targeted numbers and have nothing to do what the combustion chamber is actually seeing.   

The vrods I have tuned were never that sensitive to afr changes.  Matter of fact.  They run and work like most other internal combustion engines.  In a wide range of afr.

The numbers I throw around are from logs, blah blah blah. I didn't pull them out of my ass . So whenever you do get around to tune a rod with PV, get back to me and we can compare notes. At the moment you are assuming. That's one step before guessing.
Ron

Why would tuning it with vision be different than the ones I have done with TTS, or SERT?  They also allow you to choose different CLB targets.  BUT if I ever do get a chance to tune a vrod with vision.  I'll figure it out and if I need to pull something and find something wrong.  I will talk to DJ about it.  Not you.  I would be trying to solve a problem.  Not bitch about it.

Remember this tune drift thread.  I tune with sensors for a living.  I am interested in the topic because it isn't something I have had to deal with, and it is something I don't want to deal with.  So, I educate myself on it so if it does happen.  I am not going in blind.  Now, maybe some of the bikes I have tuned have had this.  If people are coming from Haywood to the Midwest to get tunes fixed.  Some of mine might of made it there also.  But, if they don't let me know.  I am still doing everything I can.

You have contacted me on this adaptive off and reset that fix's the problem.  I have told you what you need to do in order to get it checked out.  You have done nothing but make excuses from not caring, afraid pulling a file would destroy your ECM, one of the people that can help you might refuse, to not having time.........  So, if your not concerned.  I am not concerned with your problem either, but I am concerned with the underlying problem.  You can tune however you want.  This thread isn't about you.

[rbabos]

"You have contacted me on this adaptive off and reset that fix's the problem.  I have told you what you need to do in order to get it checked out.  You have done nothing but make excuses from not caring, afraid pulling a file would destroy your ECM, one of the people that can help you might refuse, to not having time.........  So, if your not concerned.  I am not concerned with your problem either, but I am concerned with the underlying problem.  You can tune however you want.  This thread isn't about you."

Again you make up stories. I asked you about the procedure. Afraid of pulling the file and destroying the ECM, seriously? So dramatic.  I actually have the MTE here. I refuse to send it to who you recommended after the last post from him. Posts got pulled on that deal. He, you can do it on your own if you chooses and ease your concern for the possible underlying problem. Will it matter to us, no, because nothing will be done about it anyway.
Ron

[upnorthbiker]

Crickey, I didn't expect the bickering posts, surely we are all adults, and have the same goal in common as we are all members of this forum. Are you all not better off channelling  all that bad text, towards, in this case, a fix for tune drift.
Many thanks to the constructive posts, I have some things to try now which I didn't before.
Why 2 discs, open end = 10 discs + 2 for 12 and the open end for more noise. Just answering the question, not commenting or anything.
I am not expert enough enough to comment or criticise, to me you are all the experts, the people who people like me come to for advice and guidance.
Thanks again,
Jeff

[Tsani]

Crickey, I didn't expect the bickering posts, surely we are all adults, and have the same goal in common as we are all members of this forum. Are you all not better off channelling  all that bad text, towards, in this case, a fix for tune drift.
Many thanks to the constructive posts, I have some things to try now which I didn't before.
Why 2 discs, open end = 10 discs + 2 for 12 and the open end for more noise. Just answering the question, not commenting or anything.
I am not expert enough enough to comment or criticise, to me you are all the experts, the people who people like me come to for advice and guidance.
Thanks again,
Jeff

It's a tuning thread. Get used to it. Happens all the time. 

[FLTRI]

...Why 2 discs, open end = 10 discs + 2 for 12 and the open end for more noise. Just answering the question, not commenting or anything...
Jeff

I understand your logic. You are using the open ended muffler for more noise. I think you may be giving up some performance with that open end though. Usually an open end will hurt low end torque but definitely louder.
I suggest to those who want louder to use a 1"-1 1/4" hole in the cap. You can buy ones already with holes.
Again, I would go with 8-10 discs with a cap with a hole in it.
Bob

[upnorthbiker]

Hi Bob,

...Why 2 discs, open end = 10 discs + 2 for 12 and the open end for more noise. Just answering the question, not commenting or anything...
Jeff

I understand your logic. You are using the open ended muffler for more noise. I think you may be giving up some performance with that open end though. Usually an open end will hurt low end torque but definitely louder.
I suggest to those who want louder to use a 1"-1 1/4" hole in the cap. You can buy ones already with holes.
Again, I would go with 8-10 discs with a cap with a hole in it.
Bob

That's what I've fitted, Supertrapp sell them and they are sold as open end cap.
Open end cap + 2 discs is = to 12 discs which is recommended by Supertrapp on there forum for good overall performance.
I have no problem with the performance when the tune is good, I only want to fix the drift.
Thankyou for your input tho.
Jeff