Tune drift

[upnorthbiker]

Hi,
Bike is a 14 DX, standard air filter and supertrapp fatshots, open end caps with 2 discs and a PV1 fitted. Got just under 7000 miles on the clock now.Done quite a bit of autotune on the original tune to the point that average change was only 2%. Ok now the tunes done, time to enjoy the bike.
Bike ran smooth and strong with no noticeable surges or misses, I've disabled adaptive fuel control.
Bike seemed to be ok for a while, but now there's noticeable tune drift, you can feel it come on. Bike gets a little vibes and the exhaust note changes and sounds a little on the rough side. Bike still pulls strong over 3000rpm and only rough below that. I have to keep reseting trims now after around 150 miles, to get the bike running back to good.
The other night after scouring this site for posts on the subject I reset all afr of 14.6 to 14.5 and went open loop. Bike runs awesome, smoother and stronger than it ever has ! Even smooth at throttle position 2 in 5th gear.I've now dropped these 14.5 cells to 14.2. Seat of the pants tells me that the bike is very happy, smooth idle and strong power. Exhaust note is crisp and low as well.
Will I leave the bike in open loop ? And will it effect anything longterm ?
I've seen a few tune drift stories, can this be fixed with the tune in closed loop ?
Do I just have to keep the afr numbers away from 14.6 to keep it in open loop, or switch off closed loop in limits and switches ?
Do I need to do anything else if I want to keep running it in open loop permanent ?
I have more questions but will ask anyone who is willing to help with this post.
Thanks for advice in advance.
Ride safe,
Jeff

[glens]

... I've disabled adaptive fuel control.

then

Bike seemed to be ok for a while, but now there's noticeable tune drift, you can feel it come on.

How is this possible?  If adaptive fuel control is disabled, the tune shouldn't be drifting.  If the tune's drifting, the adaptive fuel control ain't disabled.

And if the tune drifts because it's in closed-loop, and you developed the tune using those very O2 sensors, then how can you trust the tune?  If you didn't use those O2 sensors to develop the tune and it degrades when you use them, maybe you're not giving them good sample.

Who can say?

If you like the way it runs open-loop, then run it that way.  Were it me, I'd be spending some time getting closed-loop to work correctly.

[rbabos]

Hi,
Bike is a 14 DX, standard air filter and supertrapp fatshots, open end caps with 2 discs and a PV1 fitted. Got just under 7000 miles on the clock now.Done quite a bit of autotune on the original tune to the point that average change was only 2%. Ok now the tunes done, time to enjoy the bike.
Bike ran smooth and strong with no noticeable surges or misses, I've disabled adaptive fuel control.
Bike seemed to be ok for a while, but now there's noticeable tune drift, you can feel it come on. Bike gets a little vibes and the exhaust note changes and sounds a little on the rough side. Bike still pulls strong over 3000rpm and only rough below that. I have to keep reseting trims now after around 150 miles, to get the bike running back to good.
The other night after scouring this site for posts on the subject I reset all afr of 14.6 to 14.5 and went open loop. Bike runs awesome, smoother and stronger than it ever has ! Even smooth at throttle position 2 in 5th gear.I've now dropped these 14.5 cells to 14.2. Seat of the pants tells me that the bike is very happy, smooth idle and strong power. Exhaust note is crisp and low as well.
Will I leave the bike in open loop ? And will it effect anything longterm ?
I've seen a few tune drift stories, can this be fixed with the tune in closed loop ?
Do I just have to keep the afr numbers away from 14.6 to keep it in open loop, or switch off closed loop in limits and switches ?
Do I need to do anything else if I want to keep running it in open loop permanent ?
I have more questions but will ask anyone who is willing to help with this post.
Thanks for advice in advance.
Ride safe,
Jeff

Save yourself an lot of grief and leave it in open loop if it runs good, especially below 4k. Sensor sampling should be good above 4k but the ve table it creates below that , really can't be trusted, so the daily O2 adjustments in closed loop is nothing more then trying to dial in crap anyway.  I take it this DX is a VRSCDX?  Nobody here will give you a gold star , even if somehow you miraculously pull off a closed loop tune. I lucked out but I also run 12 discs per can with closed end. Adaptive is also disabled due to some unnatural behavior it displays. Then again, why have long term trying to dial in flawed data from closed loop? As I posted before, as odd behaviour,  my bike instantly runs different as soon as I enable it. Hasn't learned a damn thing but still changes the tune.
Ron

[2006FXDCI]

  If Ive learned anything about this issue if you dont have really good sampling from your O2 sensors its nearly impossible to run CL . Even if dyno tuned as ive experienced with 2 bikes recently . If you have the time and patience to get sensor location right CL will work great . If not run it OL and forget about it .

[upnorthbiker]

Thanks for the replies, open loop it is then.
Will I disable closed loop in limits and switches ? Or just the fact that there are no afr set at 14.6 is enough.
Jeff

[2006FXDCI]

Just the fact that you have no 14.6 cells should do the trick . You can reset all learned trims as well just to cover all the bases

[upnorthbiker]

Thanks, I will update on how it is long term after I get some miles in.

[FLTRI]

Wow! Sure are a lot of folks noticing P/V tune drift when adaptive has been supposedly disabled.
My guess is adaptive is actually not disabled even though the software indicates so.
I don't know of any way for the system to change/learn without adaptive doing its thing.
Maybe SC will chime in with how this can happen without adaptive enabled.
Bob

[hrdtail78]

I have noticed the same.  I don't understand what is being reset if there is no LTFT's in the first place.

2 vrod cals seeming to do the same.  Wish someone would send me a MTE file off one of those.  Then we can really look at what is happening. 

Running a bike in all open loop isn't going to hurt anything if the VE's are mapped correctly in the first place.  You just will not receive the benefits you get with a bike that is running in closed loop.   Have you logged any AT-100 wide band data?

[2006FXDCI]

I have road tuned 2 bikes that have ran CL for the last couple of years . One a 2008 and one a 2009 so both have the 18mm O2 sensors that are close to the head . Neither of those have ever drifted off the original tune . Seems to be more of an issue with the little heated O2 sensors and theyre placement . At least in my minimal experience

[upnorthbiker]

I have noticed the same.  I don't understand what is being reset if there is no LTFT's in the first place.

2 vrod cals seeming to do the same.  Wish someone would send me a MTE file off one of those.  Then we can really look at what is happening. 

Running a bike in all open loop isn't going to hurt anything if the VE's are mapped correctly in the first place.  You just will not receive the benefits you get with a bike that is running in closed loop.   Have you logged any AT-100 wide band data?

Sorry no at 100 data, the bikes a 14 vrscdx so has the 12mm O2
With all I've been reading on the poor sampling from these sensor locations I reckon the ve's from the auto tune runs I made will be as good as it gets. Would it be better to pay for a dyno tune and let the sniffers sort out the ve's ?
Seat of the pants tells me it's running fine, best it ever has.
Thanks for the input.
Jeff

[rbabos]

I have noticed the same.  I don't understand what is being reset if there is no LTFT's in the first place.

2 vrod cals seeming to do the same.  Wish someone would send me a MTE file off one of those.  Then we can really look at what is happening. 

Running a bike in all open loop isn't going to hurt anything if the VE's are mapped correctly in the first place.  You just will not receive the benefits you get with a bike that is running in closed loop.   Have you logged any AT-100 wide band data?

Actually 3. The bike in England I played with exibits odd behaviour also in closed loop.  It's in open loop now and reasonably good, last I talked to him. That bike was dealer tuned with the HD tuner and it drifted also. Then AT 100 with the same results turned back to stock NB sensors. Not sure what the possible cause is because like I said, I have some back pressure in my system and it runs closed loop just fine. More then say the Akropovic or open end cap of the OP.  Came back from a 200 mile ride just now and not one hickup anywhere in the rpms. 12mm sensors are in the stock v rod location also. Akro pipe in attachment.

[upnorthbiker]

Hi Ron, don't think it's a back pressure issue as it did the same when I had 8 discs and closed end cap. Went to open end cap for more noise, bonus was the bike ran better, but still had the tune drift. Am running open now for a while to see how it goes.
Jeff

[rbabos]

Hi Ron, don't think it's a back pressure issue as it did the same when I had 8 discs and closed end cap. Went to open end cap for more noise, bonus was the bike ran better, but still had the tune drift. Am running open now for a while to see how it goes.
Jeff

Just a hunch that didn't pan out then.  Enjoy the open loop.
By chance, are you running the Stock Improved calibration. 12VO76000101.pvt
Ron

[FLTRI]

Hi Ron, don't think it's a back pressure issue as it did the same when I had 8 discs and closed end cap. Went to open end cap for more noise, bonus was the bike ran better, but still had the tune drift. Am running open now for a while to see how it goes.
Jeff

What are the running characteristics? Explain what running issues the bike exhibits as explained in engine rpms vs gear vs load.
ie: I notice after running on the freeway at 2500-3200 for a while and get off and come to a stop the engine idles excessively low and rough for a few seconds then seems to recover and idle ok.

or:
As I'm mildly accelerating (1/4-1/2 throttle) through the gears there seems to be a certain rpm I notice a hessitation that goes away if I increase the throttle a bit. Then, if I slow down an maintain that rpm with a constant load I feel jerking of the engine.
The better, more precise the description the more apt someone will be able to diagnose the issue.
Bob

[whittlebeast]

Have you looked a a big log off this bike?  Normally, this sort of thing is fairly easy to spot.

Andy

[rbabos]

Hi Ron, don't think it's a back pressure issue as it did the same when I had 8 discs and closed end cap. Went to open end cap for more noise, bonus was the bike ran better, but still had the tune drift. Am running open now for a while to see how it goes.
Jeff

What are the running characteristics? Explain what running issues the bike exhibits as explained in engine rpms vs gear vs load.
ie: I notice after running on the freeway at 2500-3200 for a while and get off and come to a stop the engine idles excessively low and rough for a few seconds then seems to recover and idle ok.

or:
As I'm mildly accelerating (1/4-1/2 throttle) through the gears there seems to be a certain rpm I notice a hessitation that goes away if I increase the throttle a bit. Then, if I slow down an maintain that rpm with a constant load I feel jerking of the engine.
The better, more precise the description the more apt someone will be able to diagnose the issue.
Bob

Can't speek for upnorthbiker but in your list, add hesitation during a launch prior to full warmup and you have the standard "Potty mouth" cal it come with from the factory.
The low idle issue I found was too fat a decel fuel in the 1200 area. Leaning that, my idle recovery is now stable.
Main issue with the rod is 2750-3500 usually.  Cause is incorrect fuel for the light loads. Basic Auto tune with 700 clb default won't get it right. Neither will AT100 tune if it's turned back to the calibration with the clbs left in default. That area favours 760-800 clb when tuned. It's not fussy on idle or cruise ranges so economy can be had as well. Got 42mpg a couple times, with average around 39.
What a diyr needs to do is populate the ve table best the can, throw it in full open loop and set the miss , jerk area to 14.2. Then the light bulb comes on as to what to do in the fuel direction if hell bent on closed loop. Or just leave it there in 14.2 if it runs great.
Take a look at the stock clb table. How the bike even runs is a mystery to me, yet it does although not great with really lean idle indicated with rapid fan cycles and glowing head pipes. Compare the stock improved cal with ve table and clbs. In theory it should be too rich, yet it displays even leaner running in the 3k range. Another mystery. Then look at the ve tables of one that runs right. It's like 
Ron

[upnorthbiker]

Hi Ron,
I tried 12V076000101 stock improved and also 12V076000301 tab slip on mufflers but settled on an auto tuned stock original that was already on the bike, it was strategy : 177
I've never had any pings or knocks so have left the timing alone.
Hi Whittlebeast,
I've never ran a log, just tried to auto tune it out and to be honest the bike would run ok, but after about 120 to 150 miles the bike would be running generally rough under 3000rpm, not a steady idle, poor vibes as if it was chugging. Reset the trims and ride a few miles and it was pretty smooth and responsive for 120 to 150 miles.
I read some posts, example was about a guy in England who had the same problem and he ended up running open loop.
I have limited knowledge so am thinking open loop may be my easiest option.
Done about 120 miles today and bike ran good, only thing came up was in very slow traffic there was a slight jerkiness in 1st and 2nd below 2000rpm, am going to increase ve to see if it makes a difference.
Jeff

[rbabos]

Hi Ron,
I tried 12V076000101 stock improved and also 12V076000301 tab slip on mufflers but settled on an auto tuned stock original that was already on the bike, it was strategy : 177
I've never had any pings or knocks so have left the timing alone.
Hi Whittlebeast,
I've never ran a log, just tried to auto tune it out and to be honest the bike would run ok, but after about 120 to 150 miles the bike would be running generally rough under 3000rpm, not a steady idle, poor vibes as if it was chugging. Reset the trims and ride a few miles and it was pretty smooth and responsive for 120 to 150 miles.
I read some posts, example was about a guy in England who had the same problem and he ended up running open loop.
I have limited knowledge so am thinking open loop may be my easiest option.
Done about 120 miles today and bike ran good, only thing came up was in very slow traffic there was a slight jerkiness in 1st and 2nd below 2000rpm, am going to increase ve to see if it makes a difference.
Jeff

Yes, Chris is the guy I was helping. The ve table in the 1750-2k area is likely lean. 1-2% tps area Average launch rpm for these is 1800 ish. You can do a small autotune in this area only in your driveway. Use the brake while trying to lauch or find a hill and launch a few times to hit the cells in this area, 30-70 kpa ish. Pull both current and autotuned cal up in WinPv and cut and paste the new ve cells into the current cal you are using by viewing delta to locate them. Leave it in open loop after.
You can also do as you suggested but moving the ve has more chance of error then using less then perfect values created by the sensor and then going open loop. If the specific area autotune don't fix it, then move the ve's in the 1500-2k ranges at the effected tps areas.
Ron

[joe_lyons]

I've had my adaptive turned off for a couple a years without any issues and so have quite a few other bikes that I have tuned with PV.  I don't run closed loop at idle or at low kpa columns because I have seen issues in those areas with all the tuners out there.  It all comes down to bad info in is bad fuel logic out.  Sometimes these things change as temps change.  Some people have great luck with doing things their way and others have great luck doing it a different way.  Some bikes you can road tune and others you can not,  no matter if there are wideband sensors in the pipe or not.

[rbabos]

I've had my adaptive turned off for a couple a years without any issues and so have quite a few other bikes that I have tuned with PV.  I don't run closed loop at idle or at low kpa columns because I have seen issues in those areas with all the tuners out there.  It all comes down to bad info in is bad fuel logic out.  Sometimes these things change as temps change.  Some people have great luck with doing things their way and others have great luck doing it a different way.  Some bikes you can road tune and others you can not,  no matter if there are wideband sensors in the pipe or not.

Now, there's an honest evaluation that makes sense and is logical. Thankyou Joe. We all strive for the textbook tune. Then it's give it what it wants or needs when all else fails to deliver. For us non dyno guys trying to hit all those damn break points, it's baby steps and time to nail it to satisfaction. Logging and trial and error, at least for me.
Personally, I do not think the temp tables for engine and iat are correct for v rod fueling control to be exacting enough. That would throw the adaptive in the dumpster as well and not a benifit. Almost like the air head code was used instead of one more specific to these engines.
Ron

[hrdtail78]

Personally, I do not think the temp tables for engine and iat are correct for v rod fueling control to be exacting enough. That would throw the adaptive in the dumpster as well and not a benifit. Almost like the air head code was used instead of one more specific to these engines.
Ron

Think all you want.  Only looking into it deeper would really tell.  All else is a guess.

[rbabos]

Personally, I do not think the temp tables for engine and iat are correct for v rod fueling control to be exacting enough. That would throw the adaptive in the dumpster as well and not a benifit. Almost like the air head code was used instead of one more specific to these engines.
Ron

Think all you want.  Only looking into it deeper would really tell.  All else is a guess.

You are capable of getting the MTE. Doesn't need to be mine or any other flashed vrod cal. Why not find out? In the end, does it matter, no. We can't do anything about it anyway. A guess is direction to the first step to go looking.
Ron

[FLTRI]

Personally, I do not think the temp tables for engine and iat are correct for v rod fueling control to be exacting enough. That would throw the adaptive in the dumpster as well and not a benifit. Almost like the air head code was used instead of one more specific to these engines.
Ron

Think all you want.  Only looking into it deeper would really tell.  All else is a guess.

I have never found success with guessing at tuning. I tried many times over the years and can say with confidence, without proper measuring equipment guessing usually produces more problems rather than less.
If the tuning hardware and/or software doesn't reliably work how can anyone guess at tuning and expect A good running bike?
I've had good results tuning Vrods but have yet to try to do it with a P/V.
Since adaptive is based on short term I still have a hard time wrapping my head around how short term trim is good but when that trim is transferred to long term through adaptive, it changes the tune. Seems to me it must be a tuning software issue rather than a Harley/Delphi issue.
Bob

[rbabos]

Personally, I do not think the temp tables for engine and iat are correct for v rod fueling control to be exacting enough. That would throw the adaptive in the dumpster as well and not a benifit. Almost like the air head code was used instead of one more specific to these engines.
Ron

Think all you want.  Only looking into it deeper would really tell.  All else is a guess.

I have never found success with guessing at tuning. I tried many times over the years and can say with confidence, without proper measuring equipment guessing usually produces more problems rather than less.
If the tuning hardware and/or software doesn't reliably work how can anyone guess at tuning and expect A good running bike?
I've had good results tuning Vrods but have yet to try to do it with a P/V.
Since adaptive is based on short term I still have a hard time wrapping my head around how short term trim is good but when that trim is transferred to long term through adaptive, it changes the tune. Seems to me it must be a tuning software issue rather than a Harley/Delphi issue.
Bob

Define proper measuring equipment? We buy flash tuners to do a simple job of diy tuning. It's marketed that way.  Then that's not good enough so we get sucked into the wideband crap to go further for a once a month brief wfo visit. Wait, still sucks, so let's reweld new bungs for better sampling. "Potty mouth", could have used the NB sensors then. Still not right, damn egr in effect and need to deal with that. Do you see the frustration we need to deal with? Not to mention risking life and limb to collect data on the road since buying a dyno is a bit extreme to tune one bike.  Guessing, well that could be your situation as well. Now go ahead and tell me the target afr is actually what the cyl actually sees. Blending across, yeh that's exacting.  You mentioned placing problem areas into open loop. Sorry but you are again guessing the ve table is correct, or the damn thing wouldn't need to be placed into open , right?
I'm happy with my tune with required guessing and thinking outside of the box to get there. Something the software and current equipment could not achieve on it's own.
Ron