XLH engine number

[dr evo1]

I found a 1969 XLH engine. the engine number has 5 sequential numbers 69XLHxxxxx he said he bought it at a Harley dealer. he said it was in a crate from the motor co. the invoice number is whats on the engine. the engine is still in the crate never been run. its been in climate controlled storage. the story is his son bought it and then was drafted and killed. now the dad wants to sell it. why would it have 5 numbers?

[dr evo1]

I found out that this engine was rebuilt at the factory by the engineering department. they were sold to HD shops. they added a number to the 4 sequential numbers. also per HD they added the letter r to the bottom case number. they said that they were for racing. when I pulled the top end I had a surprise the pistons were 010 over size 11 to 1 compression  the heads had bigger valves the guides look like bronze and stronger springs. the heads are polished and ported with swirls in the intake ports and manifold. pulled the cam cover and found all kind of cool things. no cam bearings in the case it has brass or bronze bushings like a K model or a new sportster and has shims like a big twin. the lifters have holes in them and the lifter blocks have three grooves on the inside. the cams are stamped PB. it has no sprocket cover and a 21 tooth sprocket has the starter motor. it has a plate on the cam cover where the distributor would go but it's three piece with springs inside. I think it's so you car run a magneto and retard it for the electric start. I am very happy with this find. the price on the invoice is $510. I paid $1000. and I think it's worth 5 times that if you could ever find one...............

[nibroc]

sounds like a very nice sporty

my 68 XLCH has 5 #'s and my 59 XLCH has 4 #'s for the vins

I've had 'em since jan. '73

[Speeding Big Twin]

dr evo1, due to the 1960–69 even-odd (E-O) code many 1969 Sportsters originally had five sequence characters so there is nothing unusual about that, depending on a few things. Does the current serial number (SN) comply with the E-O code? Did the original SN (four sequence characters) comply with the code? How high is the current SN? Are all characters consistent with H-D factory stamping for 1969?
 
If the engine you have originally had four sequence characters and then later on someone added a fifth character then that means there could be two engines with exactly the same SN because some 1969 models originally had five sequence characters. How do you know who added the fifth sequence character?

Sometimes people add a fifth character for reasons that are not good. And sometimes they don't take into account the E-O code. (And there is more than one thing to consider there.)

What are the first two sequence characters? Can you post a photo showing at least part of the SN please.
What are the belly numbers? Can you post a photo showing at least part of them.
Are the cases consistent with the type originally used for a 69XLH?
Eric

[Racepres]

Watch those Lightened lifters...the ones with holes in them. I had one collapse once...Doesn't hurt much...but cost a Championship!!!!!!!

[dr evo1]

I have the invoice from the motor co showing the engine number 69XLH 32xx3 engines that had 5 numbers as the sequential both the first 2 numbers would follow the odd even code so a 69 the first 2 would be odd. so by the factory adding a 5th number there would not be the same number on any other engine and by adding a R after the belly number there would not be another with that number. I also have the bill of sale from the dealer with the same numbers. I also found the letters XXR stamped on the bottom fin next to the head gasket surface on each head. this engine also had copper head gaskets. just sharing a. 46 year old find...............

[Speeding Big Twin]

It sure is intriguing, even for H-D.
If the original SN was 69XLH32xx then that complies with the E-O code because for an odd year only the first of four sequence characters has to be odd. And 3 is odd so that's okay. But now it has five sequence characters so for an odd year the first two should constitute an odd number. However, the first two are 3 and 2 resulting in 32 which is an even number. That means H-D changed a legit SN to one that would be considered fake because it goes against the E-O code. And the reason there won't be another 69 Sportster with the current SN is because 32xx3 is way too high for a 69 Sportster SN. So again the result is that a legit SN was changed to one that would be considered fake. Why would H-D change the SN to something that goes against their own E-O code and that is so high it will immediately attract attention? They could have just rebuilt the engine to racing specs, left the SN as original and issued papers as evidence the work was done at the factory. I see no need to change the SN.   

Also, it seems weird for R to be at the end of the BN. Sometimes A was stamped after the BN and I know Palmer's explanation for it but I'm not convinced he was right and I have good reason for that. Something H-D did do at times was stamp a small Bar & Shield logo near BNs that were factory-altered. And why add R to the BN and not to the SN? The extra number for the SN just creates problems.

If Pete Simet was still at the factory he may have been able to research it but he retired earlier this year and I don't know who's there now.
Eric

[dr evo1]

this engine was sent from the factory in june of 1969 and picked up from the dealer in june of 69. it was ordered from the dealer for him not to be put on the shelf for sale. Harley does some strange  things when it comes to numbers. i remember working at dealers that had there own set of number stamps from the factory. here is one for you have you seen or know about late model bikes with a T or TA stamped after the vin on the frame???

[Speeding Big Twin]

I don't record much about 1981-later VINs unless I see something of particular interest but I don't recall anything about late model bikes with T or TA stamped after the VIN on the frame.   

At first it sounded like the XLH engine had been bought some time after 69 because it was said to have been rebuilt at the factory. But now the engine was sent from the factory in June 69 and picked up from the dealer later the same month? When did the rebuild take place and who said the engine was rebuilt at the factory? Who said the engine was for racing? Has anyone at the factory confirmed any of these things since you started the thread? And why was an XLH used instead of an XLCH?

I agree Harley does some strange things with numbers and I indicated that earlier when I said it sure is intriguing, even for H-D. But someone is telling you that H-D deliberately changed the SN from authentic to something that contradicts their own numbering processes when there was no need for it. The current SN is in conflict with the E-O code and is so high that no-one would believe it anyway. Why would the factory or a dealer do that when all they had to do was issue papers as evidence of their engine work? There was no need for anyone to add a character to the SN and BNs.

I think we need to see the invoice from the MoCo, the bill of sale from the dealer, both sides of the engine, the serial number and both belly numbers. Can you please post pictures of all those things. Thanks.
Eric

[dr evo1]

I didn't mean to start a pissing match. I know the rear deal on this engine. it was ordered at Roy's Harley Davidson in Pontiac Michigan I worked there at the time and was friends with the person that ordered it. I was there when the engine came in and I was there when Roy sold it to him. after he was killed his dad could not bring himself to sell it. the dad was in bad health and when I was there in march I went to see him. he asked me if I remembered the engine. yes i told him and asked whatever happened to it. he told me it was in his sons bedroom where it sat for 46 years. he asked me If I would like to have it and I said hell yea. he asked me if I would build a bike with it like his son wanted to do. I told him I would. I went there the next day with 10 $100 bills in a envelope. we never said anything about the amount and he never opened it when I was there. he past away 7 weeks later. that's the real deal. im 71 and will get this bike done. I just thought it was interesting how they did things in the old days... the T and the TA were stamped after the vin on the bikes Harley sent to MMI as training aids before that they cut the frame numbers out with a torch. I worked there till march of 2006. I saw proto-type stuff none of you know they had or did..............