HELP, how to get the cam assembly back in case.

[BrownsfaninMN]

...helped a friend change his cam chain tensioners (the inboard one was toast, good thing we live in MN and hadn't had a chance to take the bikes out yet).  Anyways, everything went well until we tried getting the cam assembly back into it's place, it seems the rods and rollers seem to hang down just enough to prevent us from getting it all put back together (contact with the cam lobes), is there any trick to lifting them up aside from taking the rockers apart to give us the clearance to push the cam assembly back in?  Any and all help would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks. 

[FSG]

it seems the rods and rollers seem to hang down just

Are you referring to the pushrods ? 

[nc-renegade]

...helped a friend change his cam chain tensioners (the inboard one was toast, good thing we live in MN and hadn't had a chance to take the bikes out yet).  Anyways, everything went well until we tried getting the cam assembly back into it's place, it seems the rods and rollers seem to hang down just enough to prevent us from getting it all put back together (contact with the cam lobes), is there any trick to lifting them up aside from taking the rockers apart to give us the clearance to push the cam assembly back in?  Any and all help would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks. 

No trick.  You have to take the stock pushrods and lifters out...at least the pushrods....  Some folks use a magnet or clips to hold the lifters up.  You can cut out the stock pushrods and go back with ez-install ones (The SE ones are excellent).

You will never be able to put the cams in with stock pushrods installed.

[nc-renegade]

You can look here for install hints:  http://www.harleyhog.co.uk/tensionerinstall.htm

[bouncingVman]

What are you using to keep the lifters and push rods from falling into the cam case?

[truck]

Just curious, how did you get the cams out without removing the push rods?

[Ultrashovel]

Just curious, how did you get the cams out without removing the push rods?

Great question. They are normally pumped up and, as most of us are aware, some of them are under tension from the valve springs at all times depending upon where the engine stops. Good trick removing cams wihout removing the pushrods.

[Scotty]

 

[specialx1]

take a bolt cutters to the pushrods hold lifters outta the way with magnet or clips like service manual shows, then install adjustables,least ya aint gotta pull rockerbox n chit off
Specialx1

[05FLHTC]

You know if the lifters were engineered with a locking type groove on the exterior, ya just might be able to rotate the cams so to a safe part open valve position so we could slide a locking devise or tab like sleeve in to hold them suckers there with the top of the lifter case bore for cam swapping....Hmmmm just thinking out of the box...

[96FLSTF]

 Your only shot I think as previously mentioned is to cut out the pushrods & go with SE quick install adjustables. You really should have a manual. And yea, why didn't the lifters fall in the case when you pulled the cams, even if you did get them out. Did you pry them out? Wonder what the cam surfaces look like.


Gene

[codyshop]

Just curious, how did you get the cams out without removing the push rods?

I'm curious too.   Unless he got incredibly lucky and got all lobes at BDC, I don't see how you could even pull the support plate without prying it out from the edges with a crowbar.    It will never go back in, though unless the rocker carriers are loosened.     Ray

[Sc00ter]

Just curious, how did you get the cams out without removing the push rods?

I'm curious too.   Unless he got incredibly lucky and got all lobes at BDC, I don't see how you could even pull the support plate without prying it out from the edges with a crowbar.    It will never go back in, though unless the rocker carriers are loosened.     Ray

Not possible, unless he has "magic cams"...   

[BrownsfaninMN]

...if you can believe it, must have been cold enough in the garage that the lifters just kind of hung there, enabling us to remove the cam assembly, however once we tried to put them back in, forget about it...  I'll relay the information about the cutting out the stock ones and going with the adjustable ones...  Like I said they came out no problem, amazing, must be those magic ones.

[RK101]

   Interesting, Very interesting. I never thought it was possible to remove the cams without removing the push rods or loosening the rockers and pulling the lifters up off the cam lobes.

[madjack]

Amazing,now to get back together, Take apart the lifters , empty the oil out re-assemble take some heavy axle grease, apliy to side of lifters. this will hold the lifters up in place. With push rods bottomed out in the lifters, the lifters stuck up in the cases with axle grease. wa-la you just assemble the engine, start up wait 35-45 mins, for the lifters to maybe pump back up. what'd ya all think, I mean if you could get them out , gotta be able to get them back in Gene

[Ultrashovel]

...if you can believe it, must have been cold enough in the garage that the lifters just kind of hung there, enabling us to remove the cam assembly, however once we tried to put them back in, forget about it...  I'll relay the information about the cutting out the stock ones and going with the adjustable ones...  Like I said they came out no problem, amazing, must be those magic ones.

No. You simply pulled the assembly out past the lifters and then the valve springs snapped the now-free lifters and pushrods straight down. Nice.

Of course the cam and plate assembly won't go back in. How could it? The pushrods have to come out and the lifters have to be held up out of the way. Buy the service manual.

[ceduby]

Don't know if your in the country or city, (might make a difference). but I found out about and purchased locally for 2.99 ea., "cow magnets". Worked out great for holding the lifters up out of the way. Now this is on an Evo and used when installing the lifter block with the cam in place. But the theory is the same. I guess any magnet that is strong enough will do but these were cheap, small and plenty strong enough to do the job and I could do 2 lifters at the same time, with 2 magnets ofcourse.

[BrownsfaninMN]

...just a follow-up to tell you all that my friend got everything back together, he had to pull the tank and the rocker covers, then another issue he had was the inner cam chain tensioner (pretty strong spring) was squeezing the cams together making it difficult to align the cams back in the main bearings, took the cam plate back out, pulled the tensioner back and stuck an allen wrench (from the outside of the plate) in the hole to prevent the tension being on the inner chain, then walla, got her all back together.  Now to just get a couple new gaskets and he's in the pink.  Again, count our blessings, the inner tensioner was hosed, wouldn't have gotten even a short ride this spring in the condition it was in, and to think he only had 34K miles on his '03, I have 41K on my '04, will I inspect them, you bet your bippy!  Thanks for the helpful information, this sight rocks.  Happy trails.

[dakota224]

Wow,   

[truck]

I'm not that well versed on this stuff but, does the oil pump need to be realigned before it is all buttoned up?
Tell your bud to wait till someone who knows chips in here. It could save some aggravation.

[Sc00ter]

I'm not that well versed on this stuff but, does the oil pump need to be realigned before it is all buttoned up?
Tell your bud to wait till someone who knows chips in here. It could save some aggravation.

yes...

as said earlier...get the manual...it is really quite simple if you follow the instructions in the manual...

[RK101]

I sure hope he was able to let that inner tensioner back on the chain slowly, if he let it snap back he might be replacing it again sooner than he thinks.

[northbrun]

cow magnets?   

are cow magnets?

[03deuce]

cow magnets?   

are cow magnets?

I'd venture a guess but don't want to get sent to the woodshed if I get it wrong!

[HroadhogD1]

Don't you want Hog Magnets?   

[ederdelyi]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cow_magnet

[RK101]

Back in the day we used to find metal studs in walls with them. 

[madjack]

wow is right. Did the oil pump get properly alighned, did you replace the inner cam bearings while you were in there. what was the run out of the crank.

[Garry in AZ]

Wow... seems as there is some opportunity for trouble here... here are a few more things to double check before you fire the thing...

I hope you marked the chains so they go on in the same orientations as well... and polishing them has been touted to decrease tensioner wear.
While the cams were out was a great opportunity to replace the inner bearings with Torrington 148s if need be...
Make SURE you got the right length bolts back into the proper locations in the cam support plate... if you put the long bolts in the wrong places you can ruin the lifter bores...
Align the oil pump using Evo tappet block alignment screws in holes 1 & 2 and tighten to 45 in/lbs (?) then install 3 & 4, tighten everything up in the specified sequence, then remove the alignment screws and install the original bolts, I think they get torqued to 45 inch pounds...
It's a good idea to soak the lifters in fresh oil to let the air work out of them before installing...
And when you adjust the valves, (assuming you went to adjustables) be sure to let the lifters bleed down completely!

Theres a lot more to this ... but you really can find it all in the shop manual. 

Garry   

[bouncingVman]

cow magnets?   

are cow magnets?

LMAO...

I remember Dad used them when we fed feeder calves as a kid. You ought to have seen how he made one of those suckers eat one. 

[96FLSTF]

I wonder how far that bike is gonna make it after this job??

Gene

[northbrun]

this place is a veritable plethora of knowledge!

cow magnets... whodathunkit

[Hossamania]

I'm sure it will be fine! What could possibly go wrong??  

Actually, it probably will be fine. But I would double check everything that's been mentioned here. Let us know how it turned out.

[PoorUB]

BrownsfaninMN, do yourselves a big favor and next time buy the manual!! You may get it buttoned up without any problems, but think about it, one little fowl up will cost allot more $$ than a service manual would have cost! That service manual answers the questions you have had and clearly goes through the process of replacing cams.
I have wrenched on everthing from weed trimmers, to farm tractors, to 400 HP truck engines and the first purchase I made when I bought my Ultra was the service manual. In fact I bought the manual before I got the bike home from the dealer!

[Hossamania]

What PoorUB said!
Brownsfainin, are you going to the Blue Goose in June?

[tbird]

Been using the cow magnets on the lifters for yrs. My main store around here is a fleet farm supply store

[Hawg Holler]

Really, the manual suggests using the handles off the little paper clip thingies to hold up the lifters and they work like a charm, at least they did for me. Why make things more complicated than they have to be?

[FSG]

[Hawg Holler]

I didn't even grind mine and they worked, although this looks like they may hold more securely.

[82fxrstroker]

BrownsfaninMN,
   Your not the only one that's done this.  Friend of mine just pulled the cam cover off his sporty and had the front cam come out with it, same thing, can't get cam back in. He didn't  but said he would next time. 

[BrownsfaninMN]

...we did have a manual for his bike, and yes we/he did align everything properly (including making more marks during disassembly).  I helped and learned from this experience because I have two bikes, wanted to see what kind of mess a person could get into, and after seeing all of this I determined it's worth it to take it to HD and have them do it...  It's not worth the agravation and I can afford it (I called and they said it was $600, heck my friend has $200 in parts considering all the gaskets and tensioners). 

...and about the Minnesota Meet and Greet, I planned on attending, hopefully there will be a reminder send a week or so before (hopefully it'll stop snowing by then, luckily for us all we got was rain this morning, thank goodness).

[truck]

Could you be misunderstanding 'oil pump alignment'?
It's more than just mounting it where it used to be.

[BrownsfaninMN]

...took my '04 FLHT (42K miles) to the dealership to have the tesioners inspected, they called yesterday and said that the inboard one was over 50% worn so I said to go ahead and replace them.  Went to pick the bike up last night, requested the old tensioners, was a little disappointed when I saw there wasn't close to 50% worn on either one, however there was signifcant pitting (could that have lead to greater/faster wear?).  Well at least I know they're new and won't have to worry about them this year.  The manager at HD also stated that they decreased the tension on the spring so that may decrease the wear, is this true?  Anyways, check the old ones out. 



[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[BrownsfaninMN]

...I can't seem to master the sizing thing with this website, it's either too large or too small, anyways you get the picture, be that it may, small.

[FSG]

...I can't seem to master the sizing thing with this website, it's either too large or too small, anyways you get the picture, be that it may, small.

800 x 600 is the best option

[96FLSTF]

Yup, lookin at the one on the right I would be more concerned about the pitting in the material.
Just out of curiousity, what did the dealer charge for the replacement?

Gene

[Hawg Holler]

...took my '04 FLHT (42K miles) to the dealership to have the tesioners inspected, they called yesterday and said that the inboard one was over 50% worn so I said to go ahead and replace them.  Went to pick the bike up last night, requested the old tensioners, was a little disappointed when I saw there wasn't close to 50% worn on either one, however there was signifcant pitting (could that have lead to greater/faster wear?).  Well at least I know they're new and won't have to worry about them this year.  The manager at HD also stated that they decreased the tension on the spring so that may decrease the wear, is this true?  Anyways, check the old ones out. 

These look totally normal and probably represent the condition of 95 percent of bikes with 42,000 miles on them. The pits are in every silent chain tensioner shoe I've ever seen. Remember, the wear of the material, along with the material lost in the pits, came off over 42,000 miles and untold number of engine operating hours. The size of the material was in micro inches and was so small that it was probably smaller than the oil molecules that it mixed with. The tensioners have been been the subject of unnecessary anxiety for years now. I'd be more concerned about the valve guides, which on some models have begun leaking and causing loss in compression. You did the most common sense and inexpensive thing you could do -- check at about 35,000 miles, replace if necessary, stop worrying, ride.

[Ultrashovel]

...took my '04 FLHT (42K miles) to the dealership to have the tesioners inspected, they called yesterday and said that the inboard one was over 50% worn so I said to go ahead and replace them.  Went to pick the bike up last night, requested the old tensioners, was a little disappointed when I saw there wasn't close to 50% worn on either one, however there was signifcant pitting (could that have lead to greater/faster wear?).  Well at least I know they're new and won't have to worry about them this year.  The manager at HD also stated that they decreased the tension on the spring so that may decrease the wear, is this true?  Anyways, check the old ones out. 

These look totally normal and probably represent the condition of 95 percent of bikes with 42,000 miles on them. The pits are in every silent chain tensioner shoe I've ever seen. Remember, the wear of the material, along with the material lost in the pits, came off over 42,000 miles and untold number of engine operating hours. The size of the material was in micro inches and was so small that it was probably smaller than the oil molecules that it mixed with. The tensioners have been been the subject of unnecessary anxiety for years now. I'd be more concerned about the valve guides, which on some models have begun leaking and causing loss in compression. You did the most common sense and inexpensive thing you could do -- check at about 35,000 miles, replace if necessary, stop worrying, ride.

Really, this is the best approach. Check every 35K or so and enjoy the ride. It's worth it to ride the best. 

[BrownsfaninMN]

...the cost at the dealer, a little over $600, apparently they replaced all the cam bearings as well (and of course the gasket kits for the rocker boxes as well as the cam plate cover).  Small price to pay for the piece of mind, bike runs great, and it's nice in MN...  finally.