Target tune closer to coming to market?

[Karl H.]

The auto industry has switched to wideband sensors meanwhile for better emission control and driveability. Why shouldn't the Delphi engineers put this option into their (widely used) ECM for future upgrades? DJ may have found the "unlock key" and developed the appropriate parameters for our bikes. Just guessing...

Karl

[Sunny Jim]

Searching for Utopia!! Just imagine, I mean JUST imagine if the greatest minds could collaborate and sooth sole of the these Vee Twin animals, in all their guises.

[GregOn2Wheels]

Searching for Utopia!! Just imagine, I mean JUST imagine if the greatest minds could collaborate and sooth sole of the these Vee Twin animals, in all their guises.

Agreed Bob!  But back here in the real world... ;-)

[Sunny Jim]

Oh man! That's unreal!
But seriously , we gave this propensity to argue, to disagree , as living proof that one is smarter than the other.
Personally, I don't give a f#ck!
Let's work together ! Let's promote working together.
Clever bastards and all!

[Steve Cole]

I want to be able to specify open-loop in areas where I'm not getting reliable samples. If perfect sampling from 875 rpms at 10 kpa through 6500 rpms at 100 kpa is a requirement to use TT,  I don't think very many will have success with it.

Remember what this system does, and have realistic expectations.  It changes the software in the ECM to be able to deal with 0-5 volts of a LSU 4.2 wide band sensor.  You take out stock sensors and place the WB's in their place.

Garbage in/ garbage out is still in the picture.  I don't see anything with this system (or any other) that address this with either hardware or software.  It still needs the human element.

The STOCK ECM already does this! Look at the voltage on the O2 sensors when cold with ANY logging tool and you will see the Delphi system starts at 5100 mv or 5.1 volts and then trims in as the system comes on line! No modification to the Code is necessary to do this. In the calibration area you just turn one set off and the other set on, it's simple for those of us that know. This is just the engineering mode being switched on just the same as Revolution Performance did, with the difference being you get to adjust on it yourself, in a limited manor. Expect the same results as before as that is all it can do and is why, it was NEVER intended to be used as a production environment product to start with. It simply is just not up to the OEM level of expectation for reliability over the various road conditions.

For the record there is several different ways to run the STOCK ECM and CODE with different O2 sensors connected.  you can set it up to run one sensor for both cylinders, one per cylinder in one of three modes, Narrow Band, BroadBand (as this is using) or Wide Band using a true Wide Band sensor system. No Code ever gets changed to do this just tell it which mode you want to use in the calibration area just like you would adjusting a VE value. This was all done back in ~1999 when the ECM was developed by Delphi and has been in ALL production level ECM's that HD has used on a Delphi EFI equipped bike. Mind you I would not do it on a 2004 and earlier ECM as there is trouble there!

I would assume that the ECU runs some type of RTOS that allows for different modes, loading and unloading of tables.  The questions I have are:

1. Can applications (subroutines is the ancient word) be down loaded and executed? 
1a. Can it perform system calls?

Yes, to some levels

2. I would assume that the "engineering"  mode allows switching the sensor input through use of a table to get AFR (or some binary representation of it) to the main section that adjusts trims..  May even store AFR for logging..  Is this correct?

Yep

3.  The fixed modes you talk about mainly use embedded tables for specific Afr sniffers.. Correct?

The conversion for each type sensor is already populated in the calibration area

4. Is there a main execution loop that does all the calculations and performs the operating cycle of the motor that you don't have access to?

Me or someone else?

5. And,, I assume that all you can really modify is tables that you have access to plus switch some modes?

Me or someone else?

6. How much of this interface documented and how much is hacked.. (don't really expect an answer here..  )

All of it was fully documented back when (1996 - 2007) we did development for HD/Delphi

I'll agree about using engineering modes as they not be as robust or filter the data differently.. I seen serious issues over using diagnostic modes when the system is up and running for longer periods of time.

They were never intended to be, as it is not necessary to do the job they were supposed to do!

The entire reason for the engineering mode is to run along with an engineering ECM or development ECM as HD called it. This is a different ECM than the production ECM and has a bunch more features. These extra features allowed you to do a lot more and checks and balances were/are in place, but you can easily get your self in trouble with one if your not careful. This is all done to help aid in the development of the product cycle and was never intended to be used as they are trying to use it, today in the aftermarket. Will it work................ to some level I'm sure it will, but as Revolution Performance has found out, it's not what they played it up to be.

This is just the same thing with a slightly different twist added in, you are able at some level to make addition adjustments via the PV. No custom code is needed for it at all, no custom "set it up for 5 volt sensors" is needed as it's already there! It is simply learn how to turn it on (engineering mode) and use it properly. Now whether or not they have done that, or done that properly, I have no idea. That will be found out by you the customer who chooses to buy it.

[joe_lyons]

I'll let you know next week Steve.

[hrdtail78]

I'll let you know next week Steve.

Are you going to upload an encrypted file and send it to Steve?  Seems that the best way to find out what is going on in the ECM is to pull everything you can and get it to a guy that knows what he is looking at.

[joe_lyons]

I can see the tables that are being changed.  But we will see.  If it works then I will use it.  If it dosent then I won't.  I don't need an engineer to tell me that. 

[Admiral Akbar]

The entire reason for the engineering mode is to run along with an engineering ECM or development ECM as HD called it. This is a different ECM than the production ECM and has a bunch more features. These extra features allowed you to do a lot more and checks and balances were/are in place, but you can easily get your self in trouble with one if your not careful. This is all done to help aid in the development of the product cycle and was never intended to be used as they are trying to use it, today in the aftermarket. Will it work................ to some level I'm sure it will, but as Revolution Performance has found out, it's not what they played it up to be.

This is just the same thing with a slightly different twist added in, you are able at some level to make addition adjustments via the PV. No custom code is needed for it at all, no custom "set it up for 5 volt sensors" is needed as it's already there! It is simply learn how to turn it on (engineering mode) and use it properly. Now whether or not they have done that, or done that properly, I have no idea. That will be found out by you the customer who chooses to buy it.

Thanks for the additional info, Steve.

[hrdtail78]

I can see the tables that are being changed.

I think this is the misconception a lot of people have.  There is more to a calibration than the tables that we can change.  Look at the IAC problem that was recently brought up with the 159 level that wasn't there with the 176.  The part of the calibration that did fix this.  Isn't seen.

[Steve Cole]

I can see the tables that are being changed.  But we will see.  If it works then I will use it.  If it dosent then I won't.  I don't need an engineer to tell me that.

I do not need to see, it to tell what the ECM can and cannot do. The problem I have is when someone comes along and makes up stories about what it already has built into it. The Delphi ECM is very powerful and does lots of thing that are not being used by HD. The whole BS about needing to redo it it for 5 volt sensors is just that and anyone that looks at it with a scantool can clearly see the 5 volts, in it's stock form.

CODE is typically referred to as the guts of the ECM, the area that controls what it can do and contains the mathematical functions of the ECM. Calibration is the adjustable areas like VE tables, Spark tables, Constants and such. You would need to rewrite CODE to add a function that is not already in the ECM, but, just to switch it, since it's function is already there, is done in the calibration area. Switching on any of the sensor types and how many, is a simple calibration change and nothing in the CODE area needs any changing on a HD/Delphi ECM.

[joe_lyons]

But that is changing calibration levels,  so yes there are a lot of underlying things that change.  This is not that.  Most people will have to use the autotune feature to change the tables to be able to use target tune.  I can do it manually.

[hrdtail78]

Steve,

Why is it when I first download a MT calibration it takes about 3 times as long as any other time?  Is it just calibration or is it code and calibration on that first time?

[joe_lyons]

Steve,

Why is it when I first download a MT calibration it takes about 3 times as long as any other time?  Is it just calibration or is it code and calibration on that first time?

Are you just talking about changing levels of cals or does it take extra time to go from say a harley 044 to a TTS 044?  Changing levels of cals does take extra time and I believe this is due to rewriting code.  Sorry not Steve but still wondering.

[hrdtail78]

Does it every time I first download a TTS cal.   It did it with the 15 I just got done with and it was a 617 cal I was downloading and I can only assume a 617 was in the bike.   Doesn't matter to TTS what is in the ECM.   This is after I have saved the MTE.   I know it does it automatically but I'm in the habit.   

[Coyote]

TTS runs their own underlying code which must be written the first time. Once that is installed the first time they only have to update the calibration tables. At least that's how I understand it.

[harleytuner]

TTS runs their own underlying code which must be written the first time. Once that is installed the first time they only have to update the calibration tables. At least that's how I understand it.

Me too

[hrdtail78]

I'll let you know next week Steve.

What do you think Joe.  Did you use it yet?

[FLTRI]

I'll let you know next week Steve.

Update Joe?
Bob

[joe_lyons]

I got to mess with it a short bit on Tuesday. I found out that the autotune/ target tune mode that can be set up with the PV through the Autotune box sets the ECM in open loop and just recordes like Autotune Pro does but the difference is that the AFR table is not changed. They are working on getting the closed loop version of the target Tune Auto Tune mode done. 

On actually enabling the calibration to use target tune I did not get to try that out because I was pressed for time. I have the access to enable all the tables that need to be changed for using target tune and will try this out tomorrow as I have a power vision tune to do tomorrow.

[hrdtail78]

Doesn't sound like it's ready for market.   

[joe_lyons]

Depends on which market I guess.  For guys wanting full time closed loop with the widebands then yes it is probably fine but for me using it as a tool on the dyno to tune multiple bikes using the autotune/target tune mode then it looks like I will be a Beta tester soon. 

[hrdtail78]

    Dynojet just release it.

They are working on getting the closed loop version of the target Tune Auto Tune mode done. 

Depends on which market I guess.  For guys wanting full time closed loop with the widebands then yes it is probably fine but for me using it as a tool on the dyno to tune multiple bikes using the autotune/target tune mode then it looks like I will be a Beta tester soon. 

I thought the market was for full time closed loop? 

The rest that you are looking for as a pro.  Can be found in the HD06 with analog inputs.

[07heri]

Can I run closed loop at say 14:0?  is this only for the closed loop fans? I used the PV to set up my VE's but afterwards I run it at 14:0 open loop.

Why are you afraid of closed loop operation? 

With this setup you're supposed to be able to run closed loop everywhere, at any lambda value you want.

Not afraid of closed loop....afraid of 14.6

[07heri]

What exactly is Target Tune doing?  My situation....2007 Heritage...with I guess they call it PV1.  So now we have Target Tune on the scene.  What is it doing that will help me?  Will I have my entire VE table in closed loop now?  And then retune the VE tables?  Can I run closed loop at say 14:0?  is this only for the closed loop fans? I used the PV to set up my VE's but afterwards I run it at 14:0 open loop.  Who will benefit from TT and who wouldn't, is what I'm asking?  Sorry for being a dumbsht but I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this new add-on.  I'm guessing this will only be a benefit to the closed loop fans.  If there's more benefit to it, someone please educate me, and the rest that are scratching their heads.

any replies to this?

Here is one of the prior discussions...
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,79964.0.html

there are a couple more if you use the search features.

No answers in those links.