Scatter Plots for Beginners

[whittlebeast]

Here is a motor that I am tuning.  In the first shot, I have the the AFR Target tables with MAP based Speed Density on the left and TPS based Alpha-N tuning on the right.  Note that this is just showing the mid-range part of the powerband.  The idle/low power areas and high HP portions of the tune are just fine on Speed Density.

http://www.nbs-stl.com/motec/Motec%204D%20Tuning%20AFR%20Aim.png

In the next view, I have the Z axis as VE or Engine Efficiency in this SW.

http://www.nbs-stl.com/motec/Motec%204D%20Tuning%20VE.png

Now when you look at the AFRs in the Z axis I get this

http://www.nbs-stl.com/motec/Motec%204D%20Tuning%20AFR.png

Add a few filters to throw out the transitions and you get this.

http://www.nbs-stl.com/motec/Motec%204D%20Tuning%20AFR%20Static.png

Now the question is do I double the numbers of cells and take on fixing this in a huge MAP base Speed Density tuning table?  Or do I go to what is known as 4D tuning and run both a Speed Density fuel table and an Alpha-N fueling table.  I am not sure the SW version can do 4D tuning at this point.

Andy

[Onthefence]

Onthefence

I generally do not tune based on what I see in the MAPxRPM vs DutyCycle.  I use that to only locate where I have concerns.  Often I find bad VEs that never got hit on previous rides.  What I noticed a few years ago is the closed the tune got, the better the MAPxRPM vs DutyCycle. got.  Now I always look there first when I get a log from anyone.  If that looks good, they very seldom have a tuning issue on the fuel side of things.  The most common problem I see is people run the closed loop way too much.  I fatten the motor up about .75 AFR and they are amazed how much better the motor feels.

When looking for knock issues I tend to use the RPM vs MAP and Knock Retard in the Z (Color)  I normally create a filter that filters out 0 Knock.  That way I can toggle on and off the normal running and find the problem cells quickly.  I like to use the Control P and Control S keys to see where I was right before I got in the knock situation.  Things like the knock only happens only after a long idle may show up.

Andy

So these threads are not going to gain any traction and end up making a better tune for someone? 

What a waste of effort that has been put in to it.

Map x rom looks like junk science from here....  It may aid you in mixing your secret sauce,  but only makrs pretty graphs for everyone else...

Enjoy !!!

[whittlebeast]

You will end up with a better tune.

[Tsani]

How about sending that log to Andy for his massage of the signals and see what he creates to analyze and plot?
Then, after you follow his instructions for what to do to correct it, you can post up the log to show the new, corrected tune side by side as I requested from him numerous times?
Thanks,
Bob

Bob, I honestly do not see this happening. In order for me to make a requested change, I need a clear explanation of why, etc. That's not unreasonable to expect since it is my mill on the line. And there lays the problem. I think Andy is so far into his process that he cannot explain it clearly to others. Or he just doesn't want to. I don't know which. Tuning, no matter the method, is a step by step process. If you don't understand the steps, there is a hefty price to be paid. Andy wants super large files. I can ride all day long but the biggest file will not be as large as he wants. Right now, I am looking at a file 15000 records long. Not long enough. But, there were several made of that length on that day. So could easily have a combined record amount in excess of the 40000 plus holy grail. And MLVHD is supposed to be able to handle multiple data files and graph them.

And then I see an anomaly such as what I posted above. Two separate files that do not show the "event" yet show it when combined. Where did the data come from to screen that or what was done to the data to show it? A legitimate concern.

I am starting to think that a problem lies not in the data, but in the fact that it comes from multiple files combined for display and that this is the base reason for requesting one large file of x amount of records.

[FLTRI]

You will end up with a better tune.

How? What do the pictures tell you that you translate into actual changes to the calibration?
Still nothing to relate to other than you saying it's cool to look at.
Tell us what you did to fix the problem...if there is one.
Bob

[harleytuner]

Bob, I honestly do not see this happening. In order for me to make a requested change, I need a clear explanation of why, etc. That's not unreasonable to expect since it is my mill on the line. And there lays the problem. I think Andy is so far into his process that he cannot explain it clearly to others. Or he just doesn't want to. I don't know which. Tuning, no matter the method, is a step by step process. If you don't understand the steps, there is a hefty price to be paid. Andy wants super large files. I can ride all day long but the biggest file will not be as large as he wants. Right now, I am looking at a file 15000 records long. Not long enough. But, there were several made of that length on that day. So could easily have a combined record amount in excess of the 40000 plus holy grail. And MLVHD is supposed to be able to handle multiple data files and graph them.

That's the problem as I see it as well.  Why would you want to ride around collecting huge amounts of data on a bike that is not tuned properly?

I see very little day to day use for this software, for me personally.

[whittlebeast]

Keep in mind that most people do not own a $60,000 dyno or any dyno for that matter.

[FLTRI]

Bob, I honestly do not see this happening. In order for me to make a requested change, I need a clear explanation of why, etc. That's not unreasonable to expect since it is my mill on the line. And there lays the problem. I think Andy is so far into his process that he cannot explain it clearly to others. Or he just doesn't want to. I don't know which. Tuning, no matter the method, is a step by step process. If you don't understand the steps, there is a hefty price to be paid. Andy wants super large files. I can ride all day long but the biggest file will not be as large as he wants. Right now, I am looking at a file 15000 records long. Not long enough. But, there were several made of that length on that day. So could easily have a combined record amount in excess of the 40000 plus holy grail. And MLVHD is supposed to be able to handle multiple data files and graph them.

That's the problem as I see it as well.  Why would you want to ride around collecting huge amounts of data on a bike that is not tuned properly?

I see very little day to day use for this software, for me personally.

Come on, we gotta give Andy a fair chance to show us what the value of his picture plots are.
Wait, we've been asking for this info for more than a couple years now. I'm sure Andy is preparing a slideshow to show us all the direct comparisons of before and after tune bust fixes.
I think we just need to be patient. 
Bob

[Tsani]

Keep in mind that most people do not own a $60,000 dyno or any dyno for that matter.

And this invalidates our concerns how?

Without the aid of MLVHD, I street tuned my bike and the result was checked on a Dyne. The results were very close. What the dyno tune was able to do was to get the areas I could not safely do and to also smooth everything out.
Because of what I did, the dyno process was quicker than usual because I gave a good starting point.
And did I use plots?
Yes. Just not MLVHD.
What I used handled one data file at a time. Made the change, one change at a time. Didn't try to shotgun it. And I could observe what the change did and decide if the results were going the direction I needed.
Not saying the process is not useable, but possibly limited.
With tuning, the more tools you have at your disposal. the better.

[FLTRI]

... the more tools you have at your disposal. the better.

Unless you just collect tools to fill your tool box to impress your friends.
Bob

[Tsani]

True, but I like to use my tools. Like that HD-Timing tool I have for my panhead. Friend picked it up and thought it was some fancy spark plug tool. Nope. Single fire dual ignition circuit breaker with no timing marks on the fly wheel. Tool makes the process so much easier, add tail light bulb with roach clips soldered on and the whole process takes less than 15 minutes. Heck I even made one out of a sparkplug anti oil fouling adapter that I carry in my onboard tool box.

Shame these new fangled bikes don't have a Linkert! They were so nice and simple.

But I digress...

[FLTRI]

True, but I like to use my tools. Like that HD-Timing tool I have for my panhead. Friend picked it up and thought it was some fancy spark plug tool. Nope. Single fire dual ignition circuit breaker with no timing marks on the fly wheel. Tool makes the process so much easier, add tail light bulb with roach clips soldered on and the whole process takes less than 15 minutes. Heck I even made one out of a sparkplug anti oil fouling adapter that I carry in my onboard tool box.

You were not the subject of my previous comment. Hope you knew that.
Bob

[harleytuner]

Keep in mind that most people do not own a $60,000 dyno or any dyno for that matter.

I'm fully aware of that.  I still fail to see how this software benefits someone auto tuning Either.  Most people don't want to spend hours collecting data on an un-tuned bike just to look at colorful little graphs.

Just explain how MLV helps tune a bike out of tune.  You started this topic and haven't really done a decent job of explaining IMO.

I'm suspecting that you are in some way affiliated with the software company and you are trying to sell the product. 

[FLTRI]

I'm suspecting that you are in some way affiliated with the software company and you are trying to sell the product.

If not, he should get a kickback for all the hype he puts out about MLV.lol
Bob

[whittlebeast]

I do get to play with some really cool beta SW and HW

[FLTRI]

I do get to play with some really cool beta SW and HW

Key word "play" 
Bob

[turboprop]

I'm suspecting that you are in some way affiliated with the software company and you are trying to sell the product.

If not, he should get a kickback for all the hype he puts out about MLV.lol
Bob

Same could be said about you and TTS.

[hrdtail78]

Who says he doesn't?   

Plenty of benefits to working closely with a company.  Sometimes it is just the latest and greatest before anybody else, and sometimes a price can't be put on it.  It isn't about money and retirement plans for eveybody.

Anybody want to talk about IAC Warmup Analyzer yet?

[turboprop]

Who says he doesn't?   

Touche'

[whittlebeast]

Anybody want to talk about IAC Warmup Analyzer yet?

Whats the issue with the IAC

[hrdtail78]

Anybody want to talk about IAC Warmup Analyzer yet?

Whats the issue with the IAC

Sorry Andy.  Just bringing up a new feature in TTS as an example.

[whittlebeast]

MLV does that in the MegaSquirt World.

[Tsani]

Anybody want to talk about IAC Warmup Analyzer yet?

Sneaky. I last checked for updates yesterday.

[FLTRI]

I'm suspecting that you are in some way affiliated with the software company and you are trying to sell the product.

If not, he should get a kickback for all the hype he puts out about MLV.lol
Bob

Same could be said about you and TTS.

Ok, I'll cop to it. I got a black tuner for my 03RG a few years ago and Steve sent me a fairly new Magneti Marelli EVO intake he had laying around for my 98RG. He has never offered me money or product for good reviews of his products.
He is my friend partly because we come from a racing background and we think alike about performance mods. We also learn from each other so we have a mutual relationship.
He also came to see me when I was all busted up and confined to my recliner after my 2011 crash. He even stayed overnight and that was a nice thing for him to do. A true friend.
Hope this clears up any suspicion of my affiliation to TTS.
I rave about his product because it's the best and just gets better almost weekly. He spends most of his time on the dyno finding ways to make his products work better.
Can he be a dickweed? Yes and so can I. Type A personalities, what can I say? Lol
Bob
Bob

[Hilly13]

Anybody want to talk about IAC Warmup Analyzer yet?

Sneaky. I last checked for updates yesterday.

So did I, onto it now though