will TTS work to detect knock (Pinging) without 02 sensors?

[harleytq]

I have an 06 ultra and had it dyno tuned, but am getting more and more pinging as time goes by. I think the timing has always been questionable.
I know I should probably get it back to the tuner, but I would like to mess with it if I had some way of telling where the timing is off and causing it to Ping.
Do I need to install 02 sensors to see what the timing is doing? I have been thinking of trying to vtune the bike and see how that works. But if I can just do the data runs and see where the timing is off, maybe I wouldn't have to mess with the AFR and VE's that the tuner should have done already.
Or are they all related, if I change timing I might have to change AFR or VE's ?
Thanks Tim

[rigidthumper]

If the pinging has developed over time, then the map is prolly ok, time to try cleaning chambers. I use Seafoam or Marvel Mistery oil to de carbon the chambers.  Try an octane additive, and make sure the breathers are routed to ground to reduce piston buildup.
If you have the original map, try reducing the advance in the questionable area by 3 degrees and test ride. You can also add 2-3% fuel in those same areas and test ride to check.   
Post your map so we can see if anything pops out. 

[harleytq]

You might be right about the carbon build up, but I have always felt like it lacked power in areas, even right after the tune. It also had a bad exhaust smell like it was too rich or something.
I have been messing around with the timing and have noticed that if I made the 1st two timing cells in the 2000 rpm the same on the front and rear cyl. that the fuel smell has almost gone away. I had to add 7 to both cells on the rear cyl to match what the front one was at.
The tuner used the cal for 95" 25 inj 203 cams, think its BMJ 141-03  He did change timing a couple degrees here and there, but nothing drastic. does one number increase or decrease mean it is changed one degree?
I am running the andrews tw 26 cams so I am not sure how well the timing map for the 203 cams match the tw 26 cams, any idea?

[glens]

You'll not be able to vtune without lambda sensors, which you can install and enable (I would).

As far as reading knock, that's done through the spark secondary circuit, right through the spark plugs, so you're good to go already.

[harleytq]

do you think if I adjust the timing that I will probably need to adjust the afr?

[glens]

Maybe.  Maybe not.

[harleytq]

glens,
Is there a simple explanation on how I record the spark knock? I guess my first question is do I need a laptop to collect the data while riding, or is that done with the flight recorder. I just updated my software and haven't got time to read all the new information, but I think it still started out telling how to hook up your laptop, do you even need to do that if your vtuning now, isn't that what the flight recorder is for?

[FLTRI]

Not Glen, but I recommend taking the time to read the manual for properly using the flight recorder. This will answer questions you have and give you the necessary education needed to be successful in vtuning.
Bob

[harleytq]

Ok thanks
I read the manual now and tried the flight recorder, but it didn't work the 1st time. I am wondering: When I get back from a ride, do I need to keep the bike running, until I load the flight recorder info into datamaster? Maybe I missed that part? Or I did something else wrong?
I will try again tomorrow
Thanks

[98fxstc]

Go to HDForums
You will see a link to 'TTS for Dummies' at the bottom left corner of MR Wizard's posts
It is a pdf file that simplifies the process
Take the time to read it properly or you will keep going around in circles

http://www.hdforums.com/forum/ignition-tuner-ecm-fuel-injection/302165-tts-mastertune-information-631.html

[harleytq]

Ok,
I have read the TTS for dummies a couple time.
But now kinda going back to one of my first questions. Am I wasting my time, trying to only adjust the timing in the open loop dyno tune that is in the bike? The more I read about the V-tuning the more I feel like I should start completely over, and install 02 sensors in my bike, what do you guys think? 

[wolf_59]

it's easy enough to do, but not necessary for detecting knock
Do you have a copy of the final map that was installed when dyno tuned?
Does your dyno tuner stand behind his work?
TTS tuning guide is a difficult read and understand, I found it easier to just follow the steps and then it all started to make more sense to me
I haven't looked at the tuning guide in awhile but I know at one time they added a step by step guide makes the process easier

[harleytq]

Wolf,
Yes I pulled the map out of the bike, so I would have a copy. I'm sure the dyno tuner would look at it. I'm just not sure about taking it back. I kinda wanted to see if I could just adjust the timing a little and see if that would be good enough.

But now my question is, If I adjust the timing, am I most likely to be off on the afr and ve's because of adjusting the timing?

[FLTRI]

Wolf,
Yes I pulled the map out of the bike, so I would have a copy. I'm sure the dyno tuner would look at it. I'm just not sure about taking it back. I kinda wanted to see if I could just adjust the timing a little and see if that would be good enough.

But now my question is, If I adjust the timing, am I most likely to be off on the afr and ve's because of adjusting the timing?

If you paid for a professional tune I recommend allowing the tuner to fix your issue.
While I commend you for willing to dig in, I also feel an experienced tuner will properly identify and fix your pinging.
Changing timing can certainly change the VE requirement. Are you equipped to do so?
If, after you allow the tuner to fix it, you still feel the need to get into it, you will have a good tune calibration you can always reinstall if your results are not as expected.
Bob

[harleytq]

Yeah Bob,
You are probably right, maybe I will give him a call, and see what he can do.

[Admiral Akbar]

Yeah Bob,
You are probably right, maybe I will give him a call, and see what he can do.

Hopefully he won't have a bad comeback like " You test drove it when you picked it up and said it was good."

[FLTRI]

Yeah Bob,
You are probably right, maybe I will give him a call, and see what he can do.

Hopefully he won't have a bad comeback like " You test drove it when you picked it up and said it was good."

Hopefully he got to test ride it after the tune and before he left?
If he did maybe the ping didn't show up until it got hot enough?
Hopefully the tuner the doesn't charge him for fixing it.
Bob
PS- Based on the pinging is getting worse over time may just indicate an intake leak and nothing wrong with the tune?

[harleytq]

Max not sure what you are saying, I didn't even take it for a test ride before i left. Im not sure if he took it either.  Not the best communication i guess.
Bob i think the intake is leaking again, the bike never starts good when hot, so i get that kinda backfire through the intake all the time. I suppose thats not good for the seals? I might try them seal with the metal washer in them.

[Admiral Akbar]

Max not sure what you are saying, I didn't even take it for a test ride before i left. Im not sure if he took it either.  Not the best communication i guess.
Bob i think the intake is leaking again, the bike never starts good when hot, so i get that kinda backfire through the intake all the time. I suppose thats not good for the seals? I might try them seal with the metal washer in them.

Mainly it just how receptive the tuner (person) is willing to take a look at whats going one..   Back fire through the intake sorta says low fuel pressure...Intake leaks will lean out at low throttle position and low map.. Cruising down the road it would have to be a pretty frikkin big hole to lean out afr..

If the tune doesn't seem right then take it back.. I'd check for manifold leaks and fuel pressure.. Also there is rubber nub on top of the TB. Make sure it didn't get blown off..

[harleytq]

Max
My problem seems to be under high map, under high load, Like crusing at 65 to 70 and trying to pass a car or something. wouldn't it be sucking more air because of the higher demand?
Pretty sure intake is leaking, the first shot of carb cleaner, on rear cyl, just about killed the engine. Cant figure out why this thing wont seal up. surface is smooth and flat. wondering if I need more clearance between intake and heads, seems like my old EVO had way more clearance in there. I don't know, if I put the stock Harley seals in, it seems loose, I have been using the cometic seals which seem a little thicker. That is why I thought about trying the S&S seal with the washer in it, maybe that would hold the F'er up to the head.
If my fuel pressure was low, wouldn't one of the tuners have noticed something while tuning?

[Admiral Akbar]

Max
My problem seems to be under high map, under high load, Like crusing at 65 to 70 and trying to pass a car or something. wouldn't it be sucking more air because of the higher demand?

Nope, it would suck less.. To move air through a leak you need pressure difference.. High map means closer to ambient air pressure which means less leakage.

Pretty sure intake is leaking, the first shot of carb cleaner, on rear cyl, just about killed the engine. Cant figure out why this thing wont seal up. surface is smooth and flat. wondering if I need more clearance between intake and heads, seems like my old EVO had way more clearance in there. I don't know, if I put the stock Harley seals in, it seems loose, I have been using the cometic seals which seem a little thicker. That is why I thought about trying the S&S seal with the washer in it, maybe that would hold the F'er up to the head.

If it's leaking then you need to check manifold fit. Install without the rubber rings and see that you have some play, Make sure that the aircleaner backing plate is not forcing the manifold to one side or the other.. 

If my fuel pressure was low, wouldn't one of the tuners have noticed something while tuning?

Not necessarily.. If the pressure is only 10% low to start it will have an effect on VEs who's going to see it?

This seams like an issue with something changing.. Could be carbon build up.. Could be dropping fuel pressure after the tune..