Screamin Eagle V-Rod Cams / Noise / Engine Failure

[sfmichael]

Has anyone used the bolt in SE V-Rod cams? We installed a set and I don't know if the tech didn't have them timed correctly (our best tech but we don't do much V-Rod stuff) but anyway we experienced catastrophic engine failure when it was on the dyno. Not even revving the sh*t out of it, just doing some mild warm-up runs. No we didn't clay the motor, HD states these are bolt in cams.

We have since rebuilt the motor but are now gun-shy and after the rebuild, the top end is noisy (clatter) like it was the first time. I don't think it's outrageously loud but we have zero experience with anything beyond a Stage 1 with these motors. Noise seems acceptable to me when I compare the sound to a solid lifter car motor.

[rigidthumper]

I've never had a change in engine sounds with properly clearanced SE cams, but I've only done a dozen sets or so.  I have had to change shims in every SE cam job, tho- they are bolt in if timed correctly, and properly shimmed- if not, then all bets are off.

[rbabos]

I guess the obvious question is what failed the first time? There shouldn't be any more noise from the cams, or the difference would be hard to detect. Where you might get more noise is from the tb shafts if the bores are a tad sloppy. The reversion can be extreme with these cams and are known to bring on shaft failures more so then stock cams. Check them for cracking before it sucks a screw in. At least feel the shaft ends while running to see if this is the noise source.  There are custom full capture shafts avialable from a member on 1130cc.com which should be done with the cams in my view. Just so happen to have a set, non oem should the day come if I go different cam. Not sure I'd go SE however.
I have one area of concern. If this engine was ever turned backwards after the initial timing, especially if the secondary cam chain tensioner shims are not to minimum spec, it can jump timing in the valve train. Piston and valves become best friend then.
Ron

[strokerjlk]

Counter balance ?

[sfmichael]

thank you guys for the replies - certainly 'sounds' to me like valve train clatter. valve clearances are shimmed correctly but we will re-check them

as far as the earlier engine failure, I can only surmise that a valve contacted a piston. only one cylinder was hurt but it destroyed the piston, head, cylinder liner, and connecting rod - not pretty.

we replaced both pistons, the rods, the crank (just because:), and the cylinder head - this was a costly mistake and the bike only had 300 miles on it. needless to say the owner is super bummed and we're a little lost...

jim - the counter balancer is timed correctly, is it capable of making clatter noise? I'm assuming that you mean noise via the gears?

[strokerjlk]

thank you guys for the replies - certainly 'sounds' to me like valve train clatter. valve clearances are shimmed correctly but we will re-check them

as far as the earlier engine failure, I can only surmise that a valve contacted a piston. only one cylinder was hurt but it destroyed the piston, head, cylinder liner, and connecting rod - not pretty.

we replaced both pistons, the rods, the crank (just because:), and the cylinder head - this was a costly mistake and the bike only had 300 miles on it. needless to say the owner is super bummed and we're a little lost...

jim - the counter balancer is timed correctly, is it capable of making clatter noise? I'm assuming that you mean noise via the gears?

if the counter balance is out of time it ,it causes more of a knocking noise . the noise travels from the bottom end to the top end.
side note: if you balance the crank/rods /pistons ,the counter balance needs removed .

[rbabos]

thank you guys for the replies - certainly 'sounds' to me like valve train clatter. valve clearances are shimmed correctly but we will re-check them

as far as the earlier engine failure, I can only surmise that a valve contacted a piston. only one cylinder was hurt but it destroyed the piston, head, cylinder liner, and connecting rod - not pretty.

we replaced both pistons, the rods, the crank (just because:), and the cylinder head - this was a costly mistake and the bike only had 300 miles on it. needless to say the owner is super bummed and we're a little lost...

jim - the counter balancer is timed correctly, is it capable of making clatter noise? I'm assuming that you mean noise via the gears?

I don't think I'd remove the balancer on a street bike and have not heard it make any noise. Full blown racing sure for spool up reasons. Anyone who has taken it out complains about the extra vibes, much like removing them on a softail. This item is usually a non issue on a street bike.
One other thing that makes a small clatter or dull knocking sound is the slipper clutch at idle. Pulling the clutch in, it goes away. I guess it could be best described as what some call neutral rattle on the late model big twins. Check the settings on the secondary chain tensioners also. Can't see there being a problem being so new but worth looking at, just in case there was a shim originally and it was not put back in. The effect if too loose is clatter that goes away as the engine warms up, or stop once oil pressure extends the adjusters after a few seconds when first started. Very critical to be set correctly so chain tension is set manually with shim rather then sole reliance on hydro. Those are basically the only noises the engine can make. Valves will have a faint tick only if set correctly as in barely noticable.
Ron

[strokerjlk]

It has nothing to do with racing  . If you balance the motor , the counter balance needs to come off . If you don't it fights against itself and causes a knocking that travels with rpm .

[strokerjlk]

I doubt the engine in this case was balanced , if they used HD parts .
I just brought it up because if the balancer is out of time, it makes some weird knocking sounds.

[rbabos]

I doubt the engine in this case was balanced , if they used HD parts .
I just brought it up because if the balancer is out of time, it makes some weird knocking sounds.

Basically if it's far enough out of time the rod will hit it. Other wise it's a typical v twin that can only be balanced to a certain % and never 100% everywhere. Balancers take up some of the remaining vibes. They remove them for racing because it just adds spool up resistance, that's all.
Ron

[strokerjlk]

I doubt the engine in this case was balanced , if they used HD parts .
I just brought it up because if the balancer is out of time, it makes some weird knocking sounds.

Basically if it's far enough out of time the rod will hit it. Other wise it's a typical v twin that can only be balanced to a certain % and never 100% everywhere. Balancers take up some of the remaining vibes. They remove them for racing because it just adds spool up resistance, that's all.
Ron

I am going on what was told to my pit buddy,  when he ran the balanced motor with a counter balance . 
after the fact and when it was trashed, we asked Chaz Kennedy and his dad (crew chief) if what he was told was true. they confirmed and told us that he should have removed the counter balance. maybe your right. it might just be common to remove for racing no matter what. I am just parroting what we were told.
he is racing my old bike now. but he has this love /hate thing going on with this v rod. I expect it to be rebuilt one more time 

[rbabos]

I doubt the engine in this case was balanced , if they used HD parts .
I just brought it up because if the balancer is out of time, it makes some weird knocking sounds.

Basically if it's far enough out of time the rod will hit it. Other wise it's a typical v twin that can only be balanced to a certain % and never 100% everywhere. Balancers take up some of the remaining vibes. They remove them for racing because it just adds spool up resistance, that's all.
Ron

I am going on what was told to my pit buddy,  when he ran the balanced motor with a counter balance . 
after the fact and when it was trashed, we asked Chaz Kennedy and his dad (crew chief) if what he was told was true. they confirmed and told us that he should have removed the counter balance. maybe your right. it might just be common to remove for racing no matter what. I am just parroting what we were told.
he is racing my old bike now. but he has this love /hate thing going on with this v rod. I expect it to be rebuilt one more time 

I'd probably remove it for a race dedicated bike myself. Two reasons. Just one more pile of mass the engine needs to speed up when going to rev limit. Also street bikes, even mine occaisonally see the 9k rev limit without issues but racing only, especially if the rev limit is bumped to 10k it might be pushing the design limit of shaft or bearings. Only a guess on that design limit but basically it's an item one can do without on the track as it only has negatives there.  On the other hand, I've not read of a single cb failure on the standard grocery grabber v rods. I understand the love hate v rod thing. More love then hate for me as I'm always smiling when pulling back into the shop after a great days ride.
Ron
Ron

[sfmichael]

again thanks for the input - definitely going to pull the covers back off and verify cam timing and valve clearances - I'd definitely say it's louder than stock

we're about ready to pull these cams and go back with stock, we can't buy another motor - this was a costly failure

[strokerjlk]

Ya might try calling Brian at valley racing . He wrenches on and sponsors a v rod .
Run it by him and see what he says .

[sfmichael]

Ya might try calling Brian at valley racing . He wrenches on and sponsors a v rod .
Run it by him and see what he says .

10-4 - thanks 

[rbabos]

Ya might try calling Brian at valley racing . He wrenches on and sponsors a v rod .
Run it by him and see what he says .

10-4 - thanks 

I would verify timing, valve shims and tensioners first. Once all that is ruled out describing the sound will not have effect from something mechanical that most never hear.  Like a said, the intake track will be a bit louder in the shafts /plate area but cams should be next to no difference in sound. Most owners scream with delight at the extra 15+ hp with a good tune , even with a tad more intake noise.
Two points. If you did the airbox mod there will be some additional noise transmitted up to hear. The other issue is special non OEM shims are required for the Stage 2 cams to get clearances in spec. Not sure what you used because OEM shims only go to 3.00mm and these cams might need more.
Give http://www.fitzgeraldmotorsports.com/ a shout for custom sizes.
Ron

[sfmichael]

Thanks for all the help guys 

Boss and the tech have decided they don't want to use these cams. We opened her up this am and checked the cam timing and valve clearances - all good. We're afraid of another failure with all the noise.

Who's got the best aftermarket cams for these?

[speedzter]

Before going further I'd be trying the
Stock Cams  again if you haven't already.

[sfmichael]

Before going further I'd be trying the
Stock Cams  again if you haven't already.

too much work just to check it out especially since the customer has his heart set on performance cams

[rbabos]

You could try what these people offer.  I personally have no experience with them but from what I've read some prefer them to the SE.
http://jonescams.com/h-d-v-rod/
Also there are a few more here, as well as spec sheet to help in decision.
http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/vrodcams.htm
Don't understand why the ones you have are so noisy but it's probably time to move on to something else. I understand.
Ron

[speedzter]

Before going further I'd be trying the
Stock Cams  again if you haven't already.

too much work just to check it out especially since the customer has his heart set on performance cams

I understand he wants to upgrade, but if it were me, I would like to get back to a nice quiet baseline to work from.
I have two mates with the Vrod SE stage 2 cams, and both bikes are quiet from what I can tell.
Both had some serious Dyno time, and numbers were good.
I just ordered a shim kit for my 4 Cam KTM950 that uses the same shims as the Vrod !
At least the KTM has gear drive Cams, so it makes shim checks easier !

Makes no sense why it has valve train noise if set up right.

[rbabos]

Before going further I'd be trying the
Stock Cams  again if you haven't already.

too much work just to check it out especially since the customer has his heart set on performance cams

I understand he wants to upgrade, but if it were me, I would like to get back to a nice quiet baseline to work from.
I have two mates with the Vrod SE stage 2 cams, and both bikes are quiet from what I can tell.
Both had some serious Dyno time, and numbers were good.
I just ordered a shim kit for my 4 Cam KTM950 that uses the same shims as the Vrod !
At least the KTM has gear drive Cams, so it makes shim checks easier !

Makes no sense why it has valve train noise if set up right.

I agree, something ain't right.
Ron

[Hal64hd]

I also agree that something isn't right and not the cams. I would stick the stock cams back in and recheck it, rather than purchasing another set of cams and find you still have a problem. The SE II cams would not be that noisy if set up right. I know of 12 others that had the SE cams put in, and no excessive loud noises.

[sfmichael]

I called Brian (thanks Jim) and he took time out of his day and was very helpful.

I also called Jones (thanks Ron) to get some different cams but they don't have any and wouldn't be producing any more till mid spring / early summer. He didn't have much patience for my call but I totally get that. I ran my own shop for years and sometimes tired of being the "Shell Answer Man" (if anybody gets my lame reference:)

So maybe borescope and see if valves are hitting, should be easy to see with new pistons. I read on 1130cc forum and Brian and many others have said these cams work well. Hope we didn't get a f'd up set. Brian also suggested degreeing them, it may come to that (PITA). My boss is ready to wash his hands of it and send the bike back out with the stock cams. I don't want to give up on this and I feel as the dealer we need to figure this mf-r out.

[rbabos]

I don't mean to nag , just offering suggestions . I'd verify the correct sprocket is on the correct cam. Note the number of dots and line for each. Also make sure the spacers are in the correct spots. Outside gears on front head and inside gears on rear head.
I think it's in page 3-29 in the service manual that shows all relationships to cam to sprocket assembly. Looks like the intakes at least could be swapped incorrectly, engine might run but piston won't be happy even though all timing marks look right. With the exception of the dot count per each cam.
Also note front cyl needs to be at tdc, case to triple sprocket index marks match first, then time the rest. Late models don't use the tdc locking pin any more so it could move from tdc when working on it.

Ron