Curious about TTS CLBs...

[Blackbaggr]

I'm using 739 with my 07 96 " dresser. I've been done with my tune for awhile...haven't had the best weather for riding but its getting better. I added Andrews 26h cams before finishing my tuning. I guess you could say I'm enjoying the new found power...but my mileage aint so great. I suspect my problem is more on the user than the tune or where I set the CLBs. (Need to learn about moderation when it comes to the twisty thing on the right side of my handlebar).

So in summary...I'd like to compare what people are seeing for mileage with their TTS' and where they set the CLBs.

TIA !

[Scramjet]

Good idea.  I would like to see that kind info too.

We have two bikes running with the CLB's set at 778.  We have not had the weather to get real MPG numbers yet but I will post them when I get them.

B

[Herko]

Here's two:

2008 EGS 103/Stock Cams/SEAC w.Tall Element/RHTD's/TTST/CLB's 781...Owner reported "First 200 miles of mixed style driving ....46.5 mpg" 78HP 97TQ SAE

2007 EGC 96/SE255's/SEAC w.Tall Element/RHTD's/TTST/CLB's 798 in Cruise...Owner reported 43 mpg mixed riding. 84HP 100TQ SAE

[FLTRI]

2007 EGC 96/SE255's/SEAC w.Tall Element/RHTD's/TTST/CLB's 798 in Cruise...Owner reported 43 mpg mixed riding. 84HP 100TQ SAE

And as high as 48-50 mpg @ 70-75mph steady cruise on the interstate.
John,
This is what we normally do with CLB and see this associated mileage. I wonder if some folks think that the CLB will tune their bike? I see on another thread there is a bike running "pig rich". If that is the case the VE's are way off and the O2 sensors cannot grab the AFR and correct them. This will be the case if the VE's are too far away from producing the AFR table values. At least that's what it sounds like?
HTH,
Bob

[Herko]

"If that is the case the VE's are way off and the O2 sensors cannot grab the AFR and correct them."

Bob,
Great point. I've often wondered what the true effective reach is of these OE sensors. Looking solely at the tables for switching sensors, it's about +/- 20% of stoich. This would be about 11.7 AFR to the rich direction. But not sure how effective they are at the far reaches. In the pig rich range say 10.0 or even fatter, agreed, the VE's would have to be manually moved leaner such that the OE sensors can at least start to see what to do.

A build of non canned map components, add some jumbo-juicer injectors etc. without making the proper allocations, one would need an AFR reading device to know that he's at least in the ballpark...or not.

[Blackbaggr]

I'm glad to spark some interest..here is my deal...

I did a few rides last week and seemed to get 36 and 31 mpg. Now I have to admit that I was rolling on the highway...prolly about 70 miles on the 31 mpg sample. (i won't discuss speed as that may incriminate me) I definitely have some sooty residue on the endcap of my Supermeg.
I did 2 v tunes and the gent I bought my TTS from adjusted my timing based on data logs I sent him. So.......thoughts?

[FLTRI]

I'm glad to spark some interest..here is my deal...

I definitely have some sooty residue on the endcap of my Supermeg.
I did 2 v tunes and the gent I bought my TTS from adjusted my timing based on data logs I sent him. So.......thoughts?

How have your v-tunes gone? All green? What are the AFR targets set to in the AFR table?

[Blackbaggr]

Bob/ Herko...

Here is my current AFR...

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[eddfive]

Not Bob or Herko, but my research into the world of Oxygen sensors has been very informative.  The 2-wire sensor being used on the Harleys really only has a useable range of +/- 0.5AFR.  The sensor is very inaccurate outside of this range and may or may not "pull" the values in.  It is only a switching sensor which yields no data and when this sensor was designed back in the 70's/80's it was designed to switch or control around stoichiometry or 14.6/14.7.  The voltage output they were designed around was in the 450mv range or this is the center point of the voltage output graph.  This sensor does not even start to put out a voltage signal until it reaches around 600degrees.  The original intent of this sensor was to be used at idle and in low load cruising areas, anything beyond that the vehicle would go into open loop.  In your particular case, looking at the AFR table you are using you have something wrong in the system.  It can be that the VE tables are not close to being calibrated or it could be intake or exhaust flange leak which would give false information to the 2-wire sensor.  With the AFR graph you are using you should easily obtain 38 to 42 mpg.  I will qualify that statement by saying 38-42mpg with the cruise on from point A to point B for a tank of gas then calculate the mpg.  If you are at WOT all the time then the mpg values go out the window.

As far as ignition timing goes the only and best way to do that is on a dyno.  The conditions are controlled and the dyno can hit the extremes where riding it on the street will not hit all the areas needed to check.  Long distance tuning of igntion tables will never work as each bike is unique and not one ignition curve fits all. 

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[Blackbaggr]

First set of VEs...

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[Blackbaggr]

Second set before final blending...

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[Blackbaggr]

Final front Ve

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[Blackbaggr]

Final rear Ve

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[Blackbaggr]

Front timing

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[Blackbaggr]

Rear timing

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[Steve Cole]

The 2-wire sensor being used on the Harleys really only has a useable range of +/- 0.5AFR.  The sensor is very inaccurate outside of this range and may or may not "pull" the values in.  It is only a switching sensor which yields

I find this statement funny at best, misleading at worst. The document you have attached is just a flat out bunch of BS as well. You seem to have left out the Bosch document #Y 258 K01 005-000e and everything it says about the sensor your so fond of. So everyone knows this is the technical specification document published by Bosch on the sensor itself, not aftermarket BS. Bosch is the manufacture of the sensor itself. How about the part where Bosch shows a 27% change to the output of the sensor and two different curves based on the absolute pressure? The only place there is no change is at 1 bar pressure and a lambda of 1. Go rich or lean from there, raise or lower the pressure from there and the sensor reading just from pressure changes will yield an error as much as +/- 12% from absolute pressures between .7 - 1.6 bar. This by the way is the range the HD can run in. Now add in the error cause by temperature that's not measured and anyone can see how far out you can and will be. The switching sensor is used by every auto and motorcycle OEM in the world today to control fuel, that alone should tell you something about how good they are for there intended purpose. If they were as bad as you are trying to mislead people that they are, they would have been gone long ago! Yes, they have a narrow range they work properly in but they are deadly accurate in that range and they are not effected by temperature and pressure. The cheap Bosch wide band sensor is not event close to being as accurate unless the system measures temperature and back pressure along with the sensor reading AFR! Only problem is none of the aftermarket kits read the temperature or backpressure, so the reading you get can be as much as 1 AFR off from what is really happening in the engine. Anyone want to call those good readings?

[Blackbaggr]

Steve...

I smell what your cooking & I drank the Coolaid  . Any thoughts on my mileage issue. I tried to post my v-tune info if anyone gets a chance to look at it. I dont believe I have exhaust leaks...I did put the Supertrapp on with the cams but I had NO popping...its actually VERY smooth. I suspect I'm just running it hard and loosing economy that way. From what I read elsewhere...my base calibration has been changed by Master tune to include more timing advance. When I get some time I may re-do. I used 739 as my CLBs.....should I go higher Temps here have been no higher than 65 yet. It will get to a nice 90+ average withe humidity. I want to keep it cool but I'd also like some economy. I also don't want to prematurely wear out the sensors. Thanks to all for input.

[ToBeFrank]

The 2-wire sensor being used on the Harleys really only has a useable range of +/- 0.5AFR.  The sensor is very inaccurate outside of this range and may or may not "pull" the values in.  It is only a switching sensor which yields

I find this statement funny at best, misleading at worst.

eddfive's statement you quoted appears accurate to me. If I want to tune WOT to 13.0, I can't do it with a narrowband because it's outside of the narrowband's range.

Aren't most if not all dyno tuners using the cheap widebands? I can't imagine it would be profitable to use lab grade sensors.

[FSG]

Bill, the links are below if you want to edit and include with your pdf posts

document   http://i711.photobucket.com/albums/ww119/cvofb/01document.jpg



document2   http://i711.photobucket.com/albums/ww119/cvofb/01document2.jpg



final front ve  http://i711.photobucket.com/albums/ww119/cvofb/01final-front-ve.jpg



final rear ve    http://i711.photobucket.com/albums/ww119/cvofb/01final-rear-ve.jpg



timing front     http://i711.photobucket.com/albums/ww119/cvofb/01timing-front.jpg



timing rear    http://i711.photobucket.com/albums/ww119/cvofb/01timing-rear.jpg

[Steve Cole]

The 2-wire sensor being used on the Harleys really only has a useable range of +/- 0.5AFR.  The sensor is very inaccurate outside of this range and may or may not "pull" the values in.  It is only a switching sensor which yields

I find this statement funny at best, misleading at worst.

eddfive's statement you quoted appears accurate to me. If I want to tune WOT to 13.0, I can't do it with a narrowband because it's outside of the narrowband's range.

Aren't most if not all dyno tuners using the cheap widebands? I can't imagine it would be profitable to use lab grade sensors.

The issue is what he is saying about the stock switching sensors and the cheap Bosch sensors. It's not true, and he mixes part of the truth in just to mislead people. The Cheap wide band sensor is no better and in many cases much worse than the stock sensors! If your going to use them then do it how the manufacture tells you they need to be used and then expect the proper results, but not using them how the manufacture says is useless.

If you calibrate the  VE table using the stock switching sensors and follow the direction include with Mastertune there is no need for using the cheap wide band sensors. If you sit back and look at how the system works, and you trust the ECM to do its job and make the bike run properly. The only issue is that the ECM does not know what the airflow is, so the VE tables need to be corrected to let it know. Once that is done you can set the AFR in the AFR table and that is what you will get out the tailpipe. So when we calibrate in the  14.4 - 14.6 with the switching sensor, let say and get it corrected, all you do is change the AFR to the new desired ratio and it's done. The ECM does it so well that in testing we find with lab quality equipment and sensors that the tail pipe comes out within +/- .2 AFR of commanded! Which is much better than you can measure with the cheap wide band sensors! So what we use is a very accurate switching sensor (stock) to set the airflow in the ECM in the range that the sensor works in and allow the ECM to do it's job for the rest. The dyno is used to determine which ratio is the best for your application as they are not all the same. One also needs to remember that if you lean it out to peak power on the dyno you most likely are going to be running to hot of EGT's. So now you need to richen it up to cool the cylinders down, it's going to cost you some power but save the engine in the long run. EGT's should not be run above 1500* for any length of time.

[Steve Cole]

Steve...

I smell what your cooking & I drank the Coolaid  . Any thoughts on my mileage issue. I tried to post my v-tune info if anyone gets a chance to look at it. I dont believe I have exhaust leaks...I did put the Supertrapp on with the cams but I had NO popping...its actually VERY smooth. I suspect I'm just running it hard and loosing economy that way. From what I read elsewhere...my base calibration has been changed by Master tune to include more timing advance. When I get some time I may re-do. I used 739 as my CLBs.....should I go higher Temps here have been no higher than 65 yet. It will get to a nice 90+ average withe humidity. I want to keep it cool but I'd also like some economy. I also don't want to prematurely wear out the sensors. Thanks to all for input.

The second V-tune shown looks like it's getting closer but still has a little ways to go yet. I do not much run the CLB up as far as you have but everyone can set them as they like. The higher value is going to help in the cooling effects but going to cost on the mileage side some. I would finish what you have now with Vtune and then save it away. Then put back the stock CLB table as we supplied it and vtune again. Once you have that done you will have two files that you can compare for your riding style. See which one works best and go with that.

[eddfive]

I am ready to have a discussion about O2 sensors.  But I think we need to leave the emotions and promotional feelings out of that discussion.  This thread is about a specific topic on CLB's.  The author of the thread is concerned about mpg and why his data was not yielding the results he desires.  There are a lot of variables in the system and there can be many reasons why the mpg is low.  Bad oxygen sensor, leaks, etc. etc.  I think even Mr. Cole will agree that the overall mechanical health of the system is important to yeild good results.

If you want to have an unemotional and non-promtional discussion about O2 sensors we can start another thread.  It is your choice?

[Steve Cole]

Then what was the point of your post and with your attachment, other than to misinform and mislead? My response is not about promotional feeling at all, while yours on the other hand is full of it. You seem to say one thing then when caught, try something else. The issue is straight forward here, mileage will be effected by the CLB setting and trying to use a device that does not work properly to set them is BS. Then trying to say that it's better than the factory sensors only misleads and confuses the person asking. I have proven what I've said time and time again, along with backed it up with the facts straight from the Sensor manufacture, you on the other hand have not and cannot.

Now let's look at what you have mislead in your post.

You said the sensor was for idle and cruise at low load, wrong again. Let's look at a AE176-002-B1 calibration since that is for a basic stock motor with A/C on it. Closed loop is 30 - 80 kPa and 750 - 4500 RPM. That is much more than idle and light cruise as a matter of fact it's over 85% of the usable engine range. Today's automobiles run closed loop with these very same sensors for a larger area due to the current emission regulations! The sensor could care less as it doesn't know what engine speed or load is! It just reads the exhaust!

Now you say the sensor does not work until its about 600*F and that's true but at what temperature does the cheap Bosch sensor begin to work, 400C is the answer and that 752*F! So what was the point of throwing this bit of information in if not trying to promote and mislead?

Then you ramble on that the only way to do timing is on the dyno!
"As far as ignition timing goes the only and best way to do that is on a dyno." these are your exact words and it's more promotion as it can be done and is done without a dyno just fine and many have been doing it that way for years.

While a dyno helps and does make things easier to do it's not near the end all be all device that you are trying to say it is, just the same goes for the cheap wide band sensor. Used properly both are tools and will help. Until your step up to using a real wide band sensor and meter or use the cheap sensor as it was designed to be used you cannot and will not do as well as the stock O2 sensors will do and that's on the dyno or on the street!

[eddfive]

I guess we will never agree.  I would never intentionally mislead or misinform. I just think that the WHOLE truth needs to be shared with everyone.  By the WHOLE truth I mean the reality of a partial tune versus a complete dyno tune.  I have all of the specs you are referring to:  I also have the NTK lab grade sensor spec the version I have is too large to post.
http://www.bosch-motorsport.com/pdf/sensors/lambda/LSU42.pdf

http://www.bosch-motorsport.com/pdf/sensors/lambda/LSU49.pdf

http://wbo2.com/lsu/Y258K01005e03mar21eng.pdf

On page 23 of the Y258 spec they do talk about delta P.  You may be correct here but I have a question as I am always trying to learn and be more truthfully informed.  If pressure affects the Bosch LSU would it not affect the NTK sensor as well as the 2-wire sensor?  Seems like they all use some type pump/Nernst cell.  I also think it depends on how tuning is done like sweep test or step test and if the sensor is allowed to stabilize after the first exhaust pulse or delta P. Correct me if I am wrong. Documentation:
http://wbo2.com/lsu/lsuworks.htm
http://techedge.com.au/vehicle/wbo2/wbntk.htm

I have also e-mailed/talked with Technical support at NTK and also discussed wideband sensor with an independent expert, Dave Darge of PowerTrain.  The general consensus is it is not the sensor that is the issue it is the controllers used that really determines the accuracy of the measurement.  How tuners handle the 5-wire sensor, free air calibrate the 5-wire sensor and evaluate the data can be an issue.  If this is not done in a meticulous manner then the tuning is off.

I can not accept the fact and most of my customers will not accept the fact that a manufacturer of a product is going to tell me or them that the tune “is good enough”.  Or give a false sense that tuning your bike on your own will get it almost tuned all the way, I think you said 85%, no way.   I will say once again that there is no way riding a bike and collecting data will be a replacement for dyno tuning.  I have tried it both ways and believe me the results off of the dyno are far superior.  It is hard to put data on Driveability.

I think you should do a survey among your distributors who have dynos and ask them what kind of success they have had with V-Tune.
I doubt any of the dyno tuners around the country are ready to throw away their 5-wire sensors and rely on the 2-wire sensor for tuning.  I could be somewhat biased though.

I will say though, that I do like MasterTune, it has some nice features and I have tuned a lot of bikes with it.

One last thought, I would be willing free of charge to donate my time and my dyno to do a comparison of driveability/performance, V-TUNE versus Dyno Tune.  I have done this already on my own and with customers that have V-Tuned and there is a big difference between the (2) in driveability.  Just not sure how to put this into data but I guess a big smile on a customers face after the dyno tune really says it all.

[Herko]

"I doubt any of the dyno tuners around the country are ready to throw away their 5-wire sensors and rely on the 2-wire sensor for tuning."

No, of course not, and a good tuning facility should use both IMO.

More and more I read and hear the misconception that the TTST along with the OE sensor is an Autotune system. It's not, nor was it intended to be Autotune. The TTST uses the OE sensor to help us "CALIBRATE" the ECU to fit and cater to the engines particular needs. Edd you may understand this, but many do not.

Albeit the OE sensor operates in a narrow window, the OE sensor is very good at what it does. Incorporate this feature with some software that takes advantage of this feature and it is a great assistant in the "CALIBRATION" phase of the tune. This proper calibration then in turn can result in a very good tune.

I too have read most of the documents you posted. I have also talked with Dave Darge. I've reviewed the NTK sensor training tutorials. I also agree that the software/blackbox arrangements from one brand of sniffer to another can differ. Meaning when the same sensor is used and delivers an output signal of X, one sniffer brand will show an AFR (or Lambda) of Y and another show Z.

I've also done some in house tests with the Bosch sensors. Bottom line, they will give inaccurate readings when they decide to drift (go bad). Not just a few tenths, but can be a lot more. This after showing good during their free air cal too. They typically will not give any warning when they start to go bad.

One of the findings was, the richer the test, the more the percent of inaccuracy. At or very near stoic they were still fairly accurate. When doing an Open Loop bike tune whereby you calibrate at say 13.2 AFR, one should ensure his Bosch sensor is doing what it's supposed to do at this AFR.

Could this Bosch drift (while the free-air-cal checked good) characteristic be a possible detriment to Autotune systems as well? Hmmm.

The OE sensors are not fool proof either. They can get lazy without throwing a "code". Checking the proper operation of these sensors should be encouraged and is easy enough to do in Data Mode of the SERT or TTST. Or when in doubt, just replace them. They're relatively inexpensive.

But again, the OE sensors are very good at what they do. The TTST capitalizes on this feature during the "Calibration phase" of the tune. This proper calibration of the Delphi engine management system results in some very, very good tunes with excellent driveability manners.  And yes, these customers have that big smile of satisfaction too.