Which cam for a SE 117,stock SE110 heads. What's the max lift for stock SE Heads

[GunShyKennedy]

2016 Softail Slim S .....
The 117 drop in kit has been fitted, the bike dyno tuned.
The 58mm throttle body and the high flow injectors were also fitted.
0.030" Cometic head gaskets fitted.

Currently fitted with Andrews 57H cam.
Looking at the dyno sheet, it is clearly not enough to the right, the HP falls really short.
The 57H was used because it was cheap at the time, originally intended for a 103.

What cam will give me good torque and a good kick in the pants up to 5,250rpm? A quiet cam, too please.
Without further headwork or spring changes. Using the stock Screamin' Eagle 110 heads, which I'm hoping are considered to be a decent thing.
1st hand experience, please.

What's the maximum safe lift without spring bind with stock rockers for the SE110 heads fitted to the current CVO and S models?

Thanks, assistance is appreciated, this has been an expensive exercise for an underwhelming result in a poor choice of cam for the application, by me! Don't want to do make the same mistake.
The Dyno Tuner will only sell me a cam which has the makers marks ground off. He won't reveal the specs or the cam to me or anyone else.
No, I don't want to change Tuners, he does a good job with engines.

[justaguy]

T-Man 625 would work great

[strokerjlk]

Why are you asking about a cam , if the tuner won't tell you or anyone else what the specs are ?
You can get 95 hp out of the 255 cam in a stock 110. Maybe there is a reason he is so secretive. 
He might be good with engines , but he needs to work on his tuning skills .

[UltraNutZ]

yeah 57H is not something I would have put in that build.  IMO, it's great (yes there are better) for a beefy 103" but that's about where I'd stop with it.

I agree with strokerjlk.  Being a custom chopper shop, I'm sure his cams are either custom grinds for his builds or spec'd by an existing manufacturer for his builds but his sheet resembles that of a couple of richter scale graphs I've seen.

Why don't you use the cam that the 117" kit was designed to be run with, SE259E.  Looking at a couple of dyno sheets from reputable guys, it seems to do well in that kit.  Course that all depends on the tune also.

Hell look at my 103" chart, I did better than those numbers with a 12, 103", vtwin racing ported heads, 57H, fullsac headpipe, and rinehart 4" muffs.

[1FSTRK]

Why are you asking about a cam , if the tuner won't tell you or anyone else what the specs are ?
You can get 95 hp out of the 255 cam in a stock 110. Maybe there is a reason he is so secretive. 
He might be good with engines , but he needs to work on his tuning skills .

What exhaust are you running?

The Dyno Tuner will only sell me a cam which has the makers marks ground off. He won't reveal the specs or the cam to me or anyone else.

This part would make me think he is just taking someones cam and grinding the name off it. Custom cams will come with what ever markings you want on them so it is not his custom grind. With a guy that plays this game I would have to wonder if he sandbagged the tune just to sell a cam and new tune.

[prodrag1320]

even with the 57 cams,this build should be putting out way more than it is.what compression are you running? the 110 heads have large combustion chambers that im hoping your engine engine building took into account.BTW,this "secret" cam sounds like BS to me (ide be looking for a new builder/tuner)

[Hilly13]

In all fairness the tuner did not spec this build, the cams were already in the bike, the tuner bolted on the 117 cylinders, 58 TB with 5.3's and tuned it.....sort of, the exhaust is stock slim s headers with rush slip ons, 1.75 baffles, secret cams put me off him as well, all that aside, my thoughts are comp test to see what he has to work with and go from there, sound ok?

[GunShyKennedy]

The cams are bought from other sellers/manufacturers and the details on the end are ground off.
So it is not really a secret, he's just not telling. You either like it or lump it.
There aren't exactly a ton of tuners on the island, simply put.
If a tune done 24 hours previous (see my other thread) on a 106 resulted in significantly better numbers than mine, then yes,....

How would I know if the effort is sandbagged?
Really thought it should make 100hp. Can understand the taper off.

I'd rather know what I'm putting in. Yes, I can put the cam in myself, I did fit the 57H.
So which cam to buy fellas....

[rockytop117]

The cams are bought from other sellers/manufacturers and the details on the end are ground off.
So it is not really a secret, he's just not telling. You either like it or lump it.
There aren't exactly a ton of tuners on the island, simply put.
If a tune done 24 hours previous (see my other thread) on a 106 resulted in significantly better numbers than mine, then yes,....

How would I know if the effort is sandbagged?
Really thought it should make 100hp. Can understand the taper off.

I'd rather know what I'm putting in. Yes, I can put the cam in myself, I did fit the 57H myself.
Look in the dyno section at what my 110 made prior to the 117ci kit install. I'm no tuner but it would appear he's left a lot on the table on your tune or pull...
So which cam to buy fellas....

[kd]

Page through the Dyno section. Here's one I bookmarked you may like.

http://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,89647.0.html

[strokerjlk]

The cams are bought from other sellers/manufacturers and the details on the end are ground off.
So it is not really a secret, he's just not telling. You either like it or lump it.
There aren't exactly a ton of tuners on the island, simply put.
If a tune done 24 hours previous (see my other thread) on a 106 resulted in significantly better numbers than mine, then yes,....

How would I know if the effort is sandbagged?
Really thought it should make 100hp. Can understand the taper off.

I'd rather know what I'm putting in. Yes, I can put the cam in myself, I did fit the 57H myself.
So which cam to buy fellas....

you have 10.2 compression. no reason the 57 shouldn't go at least 115 hp. the 125 tq isn't to far out of line for stock 110 heads. 
the S&S 570 works great with those heads and compression.
its been my experience the guys that are real secretive and withhold info from their customers,cant make power . smoke and mirrors. 
i finally had to tell a builder that sends me builds with  'top secret" cams ...i can make more power without knowing what you used. withhold all you want ,i wouldn't copy your stuff anyway.

[remington007]

Look at the Exhaust, 1.750 baffles are way too small for a build like this.

[Admiral Akbar]

 

Look at the Exhaust, 1.750 baffles are way too small for a build like this.

Exhaust system first, tho it could probably use a longer cam.. GMR600?

Add:
The big issue with a longer cam that give more top end is the compression needs a bump...

Strokers suggestion of the 570 is good..

[BVHOG]

Look at the Exhaust, 1.750 baffles are way too small for a build like this.

Bingo!!!  Get a decent exhaust and you will get that right side of the graph up a bit.

[HD/Wrench]

The 57 may make great peak numbers on a smaller engine but this is a big air pump. You are dealing with a small cam that is flat out of time to fill that large void at high RPM.. Look at the 110 dyno sheet that Tattoo posted with CNC hd heads etc etc.. It had a great tq curve but did not do much on HP .. Now you are using the CVO head so we would think the larger head would benefit you some.   In the end when the air pump gets larger you are going to need more cylinder fill to make the peak numbers.. We ran several 117 kits with the 54 cam and Hp was in the 110 range but tq over 130 with basic parts.  As the pump gets larger the smaller cam is going to be more biased towards tq than HP .. Which is just what you got . 

Larger baffle would be of some help as well.. so really its not one thing but several.. An engine performance is all about how well "all" the parts work together..   I would look for a cam that has 242-245 ish duration and a nice ex lobe..  many many cams fit that bill in the end its all bout where you want the tq curve  I think the T man 625 would do what you want it  increased duration + higher lift to help out with cylinder fill as well .  Also will still deliver a very nice tq curve in the process.  I am sure there are many others as well .. Good luck

[strokerjlk]

Look at the Exhaust, 1.750 baffles are way too small for a build like this.

Not as bad as one would think with 2-2 softail slip on's . 2" would be better .
Still should make more hp than what it is .

[FlaHeatWave]

'Have the T-Man 625s in my 117 at 10.4-1, they come on early and stay late... a great all around cam for me, decent #s... 'Don't know if they are a "bolt- in" with the stock heads, 'have the T-Man CVO Street Performer Heads.

[GunShyKennedy]

Page through the Dyno section. Here's one I bookmarked you may like.

http://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,89647.0.html

Thanks, yes, I saw that one. Heads modified. I'd prefer to work with the stock SE110 heads.
Otherwise, yes, sure it looks great.

The 57 may make great peak numbers on a smaller engine but this is a big air pump. You are dealing with a small cam that is flat out of time to fill that large void at high RPM.. Look at the 110 dyno sheet that Tattoo posted with CNC hd heads etc etc.. It had a great tq curve but did not do much on HP .. Now you are using the CVO head so we would think the larger head would benefit you some.   In the end when the air pump gets larger you are going to need more cylinder fill to make the peak numbers.. We ran several 117 kits with the 54 cam and Hp was in the 110 range but tq over 130 with basic parts.  As the pump gets larger the smaller cam is going to be more biased towards tq than HP .. Which is just what you got . 

Larger baffle would be of some help as well.. so really its not one thing but several.. An engine performance is all about how well "all" the parts work together..   I would look for a cam that has 242-245 ish duration and a nice ex lobe..  many many cams fit that bill in the end its all bout where you want the tq curve  I think the T man 625 would do what you want it  increased duration + higher lift to help out with cylinder fill as well .  Also will still deliver a very nice tq curve in the process.  I am sure there are many others as well .. Good luck

Is the T-Man 625 a bolt on?

Your own Genesis 577 cam perhaps? Or the GMR 600?
Are they not suitable, or are you humbly not promoting your own?

Exhaust is a lottery here, expensive and generally too loud. Mine is WAY TOO LOUD now, attracts cops like flies to "Potty mouth". The SE Slip Ons attract grannies. Slip ons the preferred method, unfortunately.

[Hilly13]

Check this one Jason tuned for a comparison.

http://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,88949.0.html

[yobtaf103]

Exhaust, what about a supermeg can adjust sound & retain power
Guy on CVO forum got 118.6 hp/131.2 tq with  117 kit  ( 259e/58tb) stock heads on a Breakout Bassani pro streets iirc , heavy rear on that too

[KB]

My 110 has stock head, maybe a little higher compression (didn't ask the builder but we estimate 9.5:1 so not a radical build) and the 57H does a nice job @108/116

[04 SE Deuce]

No body has mentioned it so probably not likely but any chance the engine is sumping?  Just lays down early and won't make any more power.

[Hilly13]

No body has mentioned it so probably not likely but any chance the engine is sumping?  Just lays down early and won't make any more power.

Good point, worth checking I'm thinking.

[GunShyKennedy]

There's some neddies returned to the paddock.
ke5rbd is a horse whisperer
They're kinda wild ponies at present, a little taming and wrangling should see the uppity bits smoothed.

Sumpin' wasn't right, the gate had been left open and a few of the neddies got loose.
Bit o tucker and smoochin'....
stay tuned.

[05FLHTC]

Me thinks someone has been sipping the hooch 

There's some neddies returned to the paddock.
ke5rbd is a horse whisperer
They're kinda wild ponies at present, a little taming and wrangling should see the uppity bits smoothed.

Sumpin' wasn't right, the gate had been left open and a few of the neddies got loose.
Bit o tucker and smoochin'....
stay tuned.

[04 SE Deuce]

Ok ok so a little feeding and kissing and the race horses are cooperating,  ya gonna tell us what was really wrong?  -Rick

[KE5RBD]

Well hope GunShyKennedy didn't run over one of those Tasmanian Devils. I think the map is on the way to recovery, but I will let him explain.  One more change and test and maybe he will share. Oh and when the hooch wears off.

[Don D]

What is maximum safe lift for stock springs on stock untouched cvo heads?
.640

[Yellow09SERG]

Injectors? You say 5.3's in the post but thsts not what the sheet list

[GunShyKennedy]

What is maximum safe lift for stock springs on stock untouched cvo heads?
.640

Thanks so much for that, now I know what I could get away with, if I change cams from the 57H 
There's some serious latitude for lift from stock then.
I was led to believe, about 0.600 was the maximum, with stock or 10.5:1 pistons.
Or did I ask the question incorrectly?

Injectors? You say 5.3's in the post but thsts not what the sheet list

Yers, the tuner set the injectors at 4.9.  5.3 injectors are fitted, tuner got it wrong....and he fitted them!

[98fxstc]

Well hope GunShyKennedy didn't run over one of those Tasmanian Devils. I think the map is on the way to recovery, but I will let him explain.  One more change and test and maybe he will share. Oh and when the hooch wears off.

[98fxstc]

What is maximum safe lift for stock springs on stock untouched cvo heads?
.640

but corrected geometry over .625" ?

[Don D]

Some will spring for corrected geometry, the same folks that will not be worried about trying to get the last dollar out of the stock springs.
I have not ever run stock springs there or even recommend it just saying they will go there without danger of coil bind

[Don D]

What is maximum safe lift for stock springs on stock untouched cvo heads?
.640

Thanks so much for that, now I know what I could get away with, if I change cams from the 57H 
There's some serious latitude for lift from stock then.
I was led to believe, about 0.600 was the maximum, with stock or 10.5:1 pistons.
Or did I ask the question incorrectly?

Injectors? You say 5.3's in the post but thsts not what the sheet list

Yers, the tuner set the injectors at 4.9.  5.3 injectors are fitted, tuner got it wrong....and he fitted them!

Consider matching the cam to your compression ratio which will be 9.8 to 10.2 depending on the head gasket, chamber, and deck clearance. Also your tolerance for noise and smooth low speed manors and riding style.  Focus on the duration and event timing first, then lift. Works out to a cam in the high 230s or low 240s for duration, intake closing of ~38, and few of those are over .600 lift. You have a whole plethora of cams that will work well and a few that will work great off the shelf and all that I can think of are under .600 lift.
I no longer pick specific cams unless I am helping with head work and the rest of the build but this will get you started.

[GunShyKennedy]

Thanks for the further assistance.
I'm thinking the 57 will probably stay for the time being.
The help I've received in changing the map has improved the power and the rideability.
The bottom of my wallet is easily reached and the current performance should satisfy my itch until I work out which particular cam will work best.

[Mirrmu]

Ok ok so a little feeding and kissing and the race horses are cooperating,  ya gonna tell us what was really wrong?  -Rick

ok we know you in good hands with Mac, as O4 SE Deuce asked, what was wrong with the tune

as highlighted the HP was well down, VE, Timing,? didn't the tuner have a dyno?