What are the Symptons of Trap Door bearing Trouble?

[masstch]

I do have the "cushDrive" in the rear wheel. I inspected it fairly recently when I did the 30T mod and it was fine.
The symptoms I'm having right now are not slippage or "skipping" but a drag or binding. More like a bearing binding up, and only when under moderate power application .
Since it doesn't do any binding on decel or coasting, but only accelerating, that implies that it's not wheel bearing, brakes, cushDrive, etc.

[Admiral Akbar]

Need a pic of the shift fork for the gear that was having issue..

[masstch]

Need a pic of the shift fork for the gear that was having issue..

The issue was primarily first and second.
Shift forks:

First/ second





Third /fourth





Note the flaking on third gear side



Fifth/sixth

[masstch]

Still no culprit. Really disappointing.  I hate it when I can't pinpoint the cause.
I had to take it down, though, as I needed the peace of mind.
Tell me if I'm overlooking something.

Do the rollers inside the MDG cause trouble?
These look fine of course but I may change them anyway

[FSG]

being that it's a '10 model it should have the mainshaft with the step to prevent the IPB Race walking, are you able to measure the step?

[attach=0]

[FSG]

I dont like the look of that clutch pushrod

[attach=0]

good catch. throw out bearing.

meant to use a question mark...throw out bearing ?

Yes I'd take a good look at the throw out bearing, perhaps replace it with a better bearing and replace the pushrod as well.

[HighLiner]

I'd offer you my Baker door but being only 50 miles from them I'm afraid it wouldn't get there any sooner.

[Buffalo]

 Have you inspected the splines on the 30 tooth pulley? Have you inspected the splines on the clutch hub? Both have been known to wear and eventually have no teeth!
There is definitely something going on with the clutch assembly to mushroom the pushrod like that! My Dodge truck did the same thing when the slave cylinder would not return all the way in. A pushrod already touching when cold might expand enough when hot to cause some slipping under load. fwiw Buffalo

[masstch]

quote:FSG strokerjlk
I dont like the look of that clutch pushrod

good catch. throw out bearing ?
Yes I'd take a good look at the throw out bearing, perhaps replace it with a better bearing and replace the pushrod as well.

Good eye, guys. That's actually 'legacy' damage from a previous run in with a crappy release bearing. I actually had two such events with an aftermarket crappy Chinese sealed bearing. Issue was resolved with a good bearing and a mod to the Barnett VPC. Since changed to the Baker clutch. Also has a sealed bearing, possibly future issue? Anyway, no release bearing issue just now.

[Admiral Akbar]

Replace 3rd gear dog ring and layshaft gear, 3rd gear shift fork.   Check the endplay on the shift drum and the roller detent. Make sure the roller fits tight on the arm.    I suspect that you are already doing the MGD bearing and trap door bearings..

[masstch]

being that it's a '10 model it should have the mainshaft with the step to prevent the IPB Race walking, are you able to measure the step?

It has the step, 0.977 then steps to 0.985

I'd offer you my Baker door but being only 50 miles from them I'm afraid it wouldn't get there any sooner.

Man, if I  had talked to you yesterday... Baker wouldn't ship yesterday even if I paid FedEx NDA/SatDel.
It is *really* fortunate for me that no one in reach had a DD7 on the shelf... cause I would have been tempted to bite off something I can't afford.

Have you inspected the splines on the 30 tooth pulley? Have you inspected the splines on the clutch hub? Both have been known to wear and eventually have no teeth!
There is definitely something going on with the clutch assembly to mushroom the pushrod like that! My Dodge truck did the same thing when the slave cylinder would not return all the way in. A pushrod already touching when cold might expand enough when hot to cause some slipping under load. fwiw Buffalo

The 30T is new, all the splines look good. The rod is explained above.
The symptom is NOT slippage, skipping, anything like that. It's just the opposite, dragging, momentary binding that feels exactly like some joker playing a prank and tapping your brake pedal somehow. Only on (moderate) acceleration. It momentarily impedes your acceletration, loads the motor, just like touching the brake. Slightly grasping the front brake, pressing the rear slightly, I get no feedback indicating any brake action going on.

[HD/Wrench]

Arrow stuff looks suspect.. Yeah, you can see much from the top cover of the 6 speeder.. [attach=0]

I see that on most of them that come apart.  powder coating the cover,   We use a fair amount of power ramps for guys that want a lighter pull. Not saying there is nothing wrong but its common to see that

[Admiral Akbar]

Arrow stuff looks suspect.. Yeah, you can see much from the top cover of the 6 speeder.. [attach=0]

I see that on most of them that come apart.  powder coating the cover,   We use a fair amount of power ramps for guys that want a lighter pull. Not saying there is nothing wrong but its common to see that

I agree.. When the trap door bearing goes there is a bunch of that stuff...

[masstch]

Replace 3rd gear dog ring and layshaft gear, 3rd gear shift fork.   Check the endplay on the shift drum and the roller detent. Make sure the roller fits tight on the arm.    I suspect that you are already doing the MGD bearing and trap door bearings..

Max, already have the door and MDG bearings. I have the needle bearing for the layshaft inner, but will likely leave it alone.
Look at these pics. Inspected all the caged needles on each gear.
Do you really (after viewing the pics) think that third gear needs replacement? Fork, yes (flaking) dog ring, ok, some wear, but not convinced on the gear.

[masstch]

Arrow stuff looks suspect.. Yeah, you can see much from the top cover of the 6 speeder.. [attach=0]

I see that on most of them that come apart.  powder coating the cover,   We use a fair amount of power ramps for guys that want a lighter pull. Not saying there is nothing wrong but its common to see that

I agree.. When the trap door bearing goes there is a bunch of that stuff...

The pic of inside the is as-found, no wiping. No metal anywhere exCEPT for 1. The 'arrowed stuff' and
2. The few aluminum chips stuck in fourth gear. No obvious source found for them.
The coating that has flaked from the fork is gold colored and I think that's what the arrowed stuff is.
Here's a pic of the arrowed stuff spread out.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[FlaHeatWave]

I was racing to get it opened up on my lunch break (I was a bit late) I didn't even look at it, just took pics and the vid and ran out the door.

The video indicates more noise than i would expect, but I don't have recent memory to reference. The phone also magnifies the sound, so not really useful I guess.
I'm convince that I'm going into it to change the bearings. I have a big ride next Friday so I have to hustle. I would LOVE to put a Baker door on this but I can't get my hands on one in  time. Baker can't ship until Monday MICHIGAN and I'm in East TX.
Baker wasn't able to ship until next week and couldn't tell me any dealer who might have one...

looks like I'm going to just do the bearings only.

You guys know anyone who has a 487-6 laying around?

Try Oasis Cycles in Brandon, MS, they are  Baker's number one Outlet.

[masstch]

Try Oasis Cycles in Brandon, MS, they are  Baker's number one Outlet.

Actually, I did! Called Baker and that was one of two numbers they gave me, Oasis and Stroker's in DFW. Neither carried the doors. Oasis did have DD7s I think, but apparently they don't really even consider the doors a worthwhile install... "with all that labor, you might as well get the DD7"...
Different perspective, of course DIY on a budget vs. Selling parts and labor.

[masstch]

Arrow stuff looks suspect.. Yeah, you can see much from the top cover of the 6 speeder.. [attach=0]

I see that on most of them that come apart.  powder coating the cover,   We use a fair amount of power ramps for guys that want a lighter pull. Not saying there is nothing wrong but its common to see that

I agree.. When the trap door bearing goes there is a bunch of that stuff...

I'm headed for the dealer to see what he has.
Y'all let me know what if anything you see in the pics.

The door bearings even look great. ( yes, changing the bearings, don't worry.)
Have no expectation that the dealer will have hard parts. If they don't I *could go back together with just the bearings. The only piece I feel uncomfortable with is the fork.

[Admiral Akbar]

The issue that you had was the classical gear dogs working their way apart due to wear and the slightest change in the engagement angles and rounding of the edges.. When they walk apart under load they bend the shift fork.  Again any rounded edges are suspect.. Still I'd replace both components as how the 2 mate created the issue.. It might work fine, it might not.. Pics aren't good enough to see..   I've not seen this issue on HD trannies but have done a lot of Japanese and a few British bikes.. I always replace bot parts of the dog clutch..

[attach=0]

[masstch]

Max, is the input bearing (two caged needle bearings inside the  MDG *ever* a problem area?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Admiral Akbar]

Max, is the input bearing (two caged needle bearings inside the  MDG *ever* a problem area?

I don't know on the newer 6 speeds.. Maybe someone else can pipe in on that.. HD did do better by adding the spacer to keep the bearings from walking together.. If the bike has many miles I probably replace along with the layshaft needle bearing..

[masstch]

Local dealer has snap rings and bearings, no hard parts.
I'm rolling Frioday morning on a long-planned week long ride.
I'm looking at options right now.
May be running to DFW, don't know. Dealer doesn't even know if overnighting is an option until Monday.
Sadly, I may be doing this *twice*



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[masstch]

Only piece I can locate within 250miles(!) is the 3/4 dog ring that's a couple hours drive to get.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Admiral Akbar]

Only piece I can locate within 250miles(!) is the 3/4 dog ring that's a couple hours drive to get.

Can you get the shift fork?  If so I guess I wouldn't let the gear hold me back.. If all you can get is the ring and it's keeping you from the trip, I'd be easy on the bike during the trip.. Learn how to shift from 2nd to 4th.. 

[masstch]

Well, my dilemma is whether to put it back in with new bearings and snap rings or wait until (hopefully Tuesday) get some parts and rush it back together.
One quandary is that i don't see a *clear* failure in any of this. Going back together with new parts or old may have no effect on the symptom.
The positive aspect is that I now know for certain that I don't have a failing trans bearing about to grenade in there.

As background, I rebuilt quite a few automotive transmissions back in the day, manual and automatics. This is my first Harley box to dig into.
I get the importance of perfectly square contact points, "camming out", rounded dogs and axial play leading to issues.
Looking this over really closely, I find enough wear to *possibly* create an issue on second gear 'pockets' and third gear dogs. Minimal, but there is *some*.
I've found that the dog rings appear perfectly symmetrical. This is quite handy as merely flipping one over essentially 'renews' the ring since they really only wear in one direction. That's the way it looks to me, show me if I'm wrong on this.
If I'm correct about the reversible dogs, then I am considering (if I don't put it together tonight) ordering the shift fork and the second and third gears overnight for a Tuesday night build.

And I still don't know if I'm fixing it .

See what I did here?