'17s.... no KLANK??

[Rockout Rocker Products]

It's been widely reported both by the MOCO and actual riders that the 17's no longer KLANK into 1st. Why? I've compared the parts diagrams from the 17 to the previous "Assist & Slip" clutch and although the part numbers are different they appear to be identical.

The KLANK is caused for the most part by the parasitic drag on the clutch plates, maybe a new friction material? Something in the trans keeping the shaft from freewheeling?

Maybe they're running Mobil 1 syn ATF in the new primaries?   

[rbabos]

It's been widely reported both by the MOCO and actual riders that the 17's no longer KLANK into 1st. Why? I've compared the parts diagrams from the 17 to the previous "Assist & Slip" clutch and although the part numbers are different they appear to be identical.

The KLANK is caused for the most part by the parasitic drag on the clutch plates, maybe a new friction material? Something in the trans keeping the shaft from freewheeling?

Maybe they're running Mobil 1 syn ATF in the new primaries?   

Can't see it. As you say, it's from breaking the plates free on a moving mass . Vrod has slip assist and it has a first gear clunk also. Just more low keyed, like a metric, likely due to less rotational mass involved.
Ron

[garyajaz]

the one I watched and heard leave several times did not clunk bad.
it was idling LOW.

clunk on my 03 dyna is also less now I have a mik 42 and 204 cams and idle lower than stock.

[masstch]

The new trans has a "scissor" gear on countershaft first that effectively eliminated the gear lash in first.


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[FSG]

   first gear countershaft is using a "scissor gear" to reduce neutral rattle

[Rockout Rocker Products]

I thought the noise was caused by the mainshaft freewheeling, & the dogs smashing into their pockets in the next gear? (Forgive the technical terms, it's how I roll)

Neutral rattle should have nothing to do with it?

[PoorUB]

The new trans has a "scissor" gear on countershaft first that effectively eliminated the gear lash in first.

The scissor gear has little to do with the "klank" but more to do with tranny rattle. My 2016 does not klank into gear either.

I thought the noise was caused by the mainshaft freewheeling, & the dogs smashing into their pockets in the next gear? (Forgive the technical terms, it's how I roll)

Neutral rattle should have nothing to do with it?


That is my understanding.

[hd06]

 The klunk never bother my.

[masstch]

Actually, and this is my pure speculation, I think the clank is a combination of two things: gear lash between 1st main and 1st countershaft & 2.) primary component "slap".

When idling in neutral, everything is spinning from the crank to the 1st CS gear *except* for the countershaft and shift ring. When you grab the clutch and disengage it, all the things are STILL spinning, because the oil in the cutch plates doesn't 'let go' just because it's disengaged.... until it's forced to let go. The  clutch/main shaft/1st gear being suddenly stopped from rotating by the shift dog engaging the first c-s gear causes the first gear lash to be taken up AND  (because this stops the mainshaft suddenly) clutch discs are forced to rip free from the oil drag holding them to the plates, this transmits a lot of shock to the rotating primary components. The primary chain jerks when you drop it into gear because of the clutch discs having to tear free of the oil. This causes the primary make some of the clank.  The M8 has all new primary plus the scissor gear.
(Run a really light primary lube and most of the clank goes away)

[Rockout Rocker Products]

I must be missing something.

Not sure how the new "scissor gear" helps quiet a gear slamming into another & going from 1100 RPM to zero in an instant.

You're right about the thinner oil, my choice being the Mobil 1 syn ATF.

On a side note..... anyone notice the new "sound dampener" on the inside of the primary cover? I can see how that might quiet some comp noise.

[dmrdn]

Rode 3 different models today. All 3 had the Klank/Klunk in all gears. When you get on it you feel it in the clutch lever

[masstch]

I must be missing something.

Not sure how the new "scissor gear" helps quiet a gear slamming into another & going from 1100 RPM to zero in an instant.

The answer in in the inertia; the 1st cshaft gear itself has little inertia. If it were spinning on the cshaft all alone (no mainshaft gear meshed with it) and you slide the dog into it, it would stop with hardly a *tic*.
However, the 1st mainshaft gear, the whole mainshaft, the clutch hub, clutch friction discs, the steel plates, the clutch basket, etc etc amount to a huge amount of inertia.... And ALL of that inertia, plus the shear force to slip the clutch from the oil, all of that is turning the 1st mainshaft violently toward the (now stopped) 1st cshaft gear.
Does that help?

Edited to remove an analogy that wasn't helpful.

[04 SE Deuce]

Delete, ya changed the example.

[Rockout Rocker Products]

I must be missing something.

Not sure how the new "scissor gear" helps quiet a gear slamming into another & going from 1100 RPM to zero in an instant.

The answer in in the inertia; the 1st cshaft gear itself has little inertia. If it were spinning on the cshaft all alone (no mainshaft gear meshed with it) and you slide the dog into it, it would stop with hardly a *tic*.
However, the 1st mainshaft gear, the whole mainshaft, the clutch hub, clutch friction discs, the steel plates, the clutch basket, etc etc amount to a huge amount of inertia.... And ALL of that inertia, plus the shear force to slip the clutch from the oil, all of that is turning the 1st mainshaft violently toward the (now stopped) 1st cshaft gear.
Does that help?

Edited to remove an analogy that wasn't helpful.

I understand completely about all that stuff spinning together, it's what I've been saying.

What I don't understand is how the scissor gear stops it from spinning together, then slamming to a complete halt.

[masstch]

The scissor is essentially a spring. It's softening the blow as the  lash is taken up.


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[Rockout Rocker Products]

The scissor is essentially a spring. It's softening the blow as the  lash is taken up.

I get your theory, but I'm not sure how much cushioning there could be. The scissor gear teeth are aligned with the teeth on the main gear when installed, not offset by some big amount. Rattle control I can see, not much else.

[PoorUB]

I understand completely about all that stuff spinning together, it's what I've been saying.

What I don't understand is how the scissor gear stops it from spinning together, then slamming to a complete halt.

Don't worry, I don't think you are the only one that does not understand how a scissor gear would stop the klunk, because it shouldn't.

[masstch]

Note that I didn't say it stopped the klunk.... But I think it's one component in a group of new design changes that should cumulatively help reduce noise. I don't know how successful they've been. I get the theory, but haven't ridden one, yet.


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[76shuvlinoff]

I got rid of a lot of the initial the first gear Klanks in my 2012 EG.
Pull the clutch in,
Start it (in the garage),
Hold the clutch in while walking it backwards about 30 feet until I have it pointed out the driveway.
Drop it into 1st, most of the time not even a click.

  Then in the next time or 3 it makes a big fat liar out of me.

[HV]

Those of us who have owned shovels get nostalgic when we hear a klunk going in to gear..

[PoorUB]

Note that I didn't say it stopped the klunk.... But I think it's one component in a group of new design changes that should cumulatively help reduce noise. I don't know how successful they've been. I get the theory, but haven't ridden one, yet.

But the thread is about the klunk, not reduced driveline noise, two different things.

[Herko]

Prefer the klunk going from neutral into first as well.
On my good ol' 2004 RK, the klunk gives me a definitive that it's in gear.
It's when it does not klunk, it's about 50/50 that it's fully in 1st gear.

[Templer]

Just yesterday Aug 27,2016 watched a customer buy a 2017 from the dealership. Bike sounded good BUT myself and several other all noted AT the same time that it still had the "clunk/klank" into  1st gear. Did note in my mind on how fast the rider pushed down on the shifter in relation to the amount of time from clutch pulled in FULLY to the actual shift. If I pull the clutch in (all the way to the perch stop) and hold it for a short time THEN push down on shifter, sometimes there is NO clunk at all. Do not know why but it clunked/klank like my 07 6 speed does sometime!!! I hear the DD7 does not have the klunk by design but have not heard one in use. Is it also noted or myself that it changes with temp of the motor/tranny cold ver hot? The 2017 was dead cold. I have heard new baggers that you wanted to look under the bike to make sure it didn't drop its inners on the ground!!!

[76shuvlinoff]

Those of us who have owned shovels get nostalgic when we hear a klunk going in to gear..

  got rid of that klunk too,installed a Rivera clutch and put that tranny on the shelf. It needs a LOT of love.

[rbabos]

The scissor is essentially a spring. It's softening the blow as the  lash is taken up.

I get your theory, but I'm not sure how much cushioning there could be. The scissor gear teeth are aligned with the teeth on the main gear when installed, not offset by some big amount. Rattle control I can see, not much else.

:up:That's all the damn thing will do, is take up gear lash. The clunk is from stopping the shaft abruptly with the dog with some residual drive component in play from the clutch plates stuck together which is the primary cause. Poor adjustment or thick fluids.  The sudden stop breaks the oil bond on the plates, then the steels and fiber plates float past each other. The clutch pack components have a fair amount of inertia so the lighter the oil used the quicker they can separate inducing less noise to that violent action of slipping into first. In fact if the plates can seperate during the time the clutch lever is pulled in, the trans will make no other noise then a click. Seen it many times with pulling the clutch in, reving the engine a few times to make the plates break the bond, then slip in into gear. Just a click sound.
Ron

[glens]

All one has to do is pull in the clutch, start the engine, back the bike up three or four feet, and "snick" it right, quietly, into first...

[FLHRI_2004]

Yes, if you have the time, pull in the clutch and wait for about 30 seconds give or take, and then put it into first gear.  It'll snik right in without a clunk every time as long as the rotating bits in the trans have stopped rotating.

[Hossamania]

Yes, if you have the time, pull in the clutch and wait for about 30 seconds give or take, and then put it into first gear.  It'll snik right in without a clunk every time as long as the rotating bits in the trans have stopped rotating.

I've got better things to do than hold my clutch handle in for 30 seconds. Start motor, warm up for 20-30 seconds, pull clutch for two seconds, slight "blip" of throttle, bang that thing into gear. Ride.

[06roadglide]

Couldn't someone just design a clutch brake like the big trucks use?

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[motorhogman]

Yes, if you have the time, pull in the clutch and wait for about 30 seconds give or take, and then put it into first gear.  It'll snik right in without a clunk every time as long as the rotating bits in the trans have stopped rotating.

That's what mine does when cold.. Never feel it go in at all. When at operating temp it clanks no matter how long I hold the clutch lever in.

Maybe time to back the adjuster screw out another 1/4 turn. Had it set at 1/2 turn out.

[DeneFLHR]

My bike as well as my friends '13 CVO both have zero hint that they went into first at a stoplight. Do it rather slow and don't force it and it is butter. Nothing new.

[BUBBIE]

Not wanting to debate this please....

All this talk about the clutch/tranny KLANK...... Here is Mine....

I have found that I NEED to keep my clutch handle/cable adjustment at the ferrule very close to "0" most 1/16 MAX free play.
Anything more and a Hard to use problem exist.

This is on my 09 King with 124,300 on it. Cable is not worn out from looking n feel. It has been this way since new and I have kept this tight adjustment from new... (since 103 build I do use a SE spring)

I have experimented with that setting from the clutch to the cable and found out:

IF i could get about an 1/8 inch More pull at that clutch handle, Contrary to many I have explained My Bike on this before, On First squeeze it is loose on the clutches and never a Bang into gear... This is from Cold & waiting a count of 5 seconds and when Hot, count of 5 again... little bump maybe but 90% not...

Many will argue that there is only so much pull on that cable to the Ramps (I agree) BUT mine improves Tremendously being almost "0" at that cable and I use a 1/2 turn free play out on adjustment on the plates...

Mind you, I am just saying what I have found out about MY Bike... I have even set a -"0" to just try for More Squeeze and believe me NEVER a Klank as using the Proper adjustment... Not much (A - 1/8" max) but probably spinning the clutch throwout bearings (not a good thing)

This adjustment was Just done to see how mine would work with a little more throw... AND it would...

IF Thinking BUBBIE must use them thar frilly do-dads taking up handle to bar space.....No, I Use No Frilly stops-get in the way- do-daddys on my handle grips... So I just plain need a little more Squeeze to get that "No Klank" totally...

I do not get much Klunk keeping a tight setting now at the ferrule and have and do keep it that way... (1/16 max)

Just My take here on My 09 King... Nothing worn out in this many miles so I'll keep it that way... 

Now as for the 17's... This type of adjustment I use on my 09,  might do a world of good there too...
Hydraulic Clutch? more Piston Volume for Movement there,  might be needed to fully Move the clutch plates OUT to Lessen the Klunk... Think?

signed....BUBBIE

added: I must need More Squeeze to Fully move the rams UP/Out to Full Position, moving out the clutch plates...

[Rockout Rocker Products]

You need to come over & adjust the clutch on my '15 Limited

[klammer76]

Those of us who have owned shovels get nostalgic when we hear a klunk going in to gear..

Never has bothered me either, was always part of it 

[Rockout Rocker Products]

Maybe Bubbie's onto something....

Every rider report I've seen so far says the clutch engages all the way out at the end of the lever travel. Maybe they've changed the actuator/master/slave cylinder..... something..... to get more throw in the clutch assembly? More throw = more space between the disks.... less drag = less klank.

[BUBBIE]

Clutches have been a Pet Peeve for me on Many Bikes... Usually engineered (I blame Them) to JUST do the job and No extra... I would like the clutch plates to Dis-engage better (more) than I have found on my rides... Tight adjustment for separation needed for me... 

IF you want, you can always shift n Not pull in the clutch totally or if any at all, just let off the throttle and Jam it into next gear... Throttle control is the Trick... BUT not on My Bike...   

signed....BUBBIE

[rbabos]

Maybe Bubbie's onto something....

Every rider report I've seen so far says the clutch engages all the way out at the end of the lever travel. Maybe they've changed the actuator/master/slave cylinder..... something..... to get more throw in the clutch assembly? More throw = more space between the disks.... less drag = less klank.

Pretty much all hydro clutches work that way with end of lever engagement. I'd be looking at possible air in the system and a good bleed if not. Another issue is fluid gets contaminated over time and offers less disengagement. Soft lines to slave, another detractor for full plate separation. Now, I don't know if they did this or not but with slip assist, pressure on lever is reduced so a hair larger master piston could be used. This increases slave travel.

Ron

[Xyzzy]

There is no clunk on my '17 SGS going into first gear. I wish there was just a little feedback that the bike has gone into gear, because without any feedback I wonder if it has actually shifted. I'm sure I will get used to it.

The clutch pull is very light and the friction zone is a bit father out than I am used to. One weird thing is if I am coasting to a stop with the clutch pulled in and I downshift (while coasting) I can feel a very slight blip/pulse in the clutch lever. I don't know why it does that. Hopefully it is no big deal.

[04 SE Deuce]

I personally like a clutch that releases clean or engages from mid-stroke > out.  To me it's a sign of straight/true plates.

Clutches have been a Pet Peeve for me on Many Bikes... Usually engineered (I blame Them) to JUST do the job and No extra... I would like the clutch plates to Dis-engage better (more) than I have found on my rides... Tight adjustment for separation needed for me... 

IF you want, you can always shift n Not pull in the clutch totally or if any at all, just let off the throttle and Jam it into next gear... Throttle control is the Trick... BUT not on My Bike...   

signed....BUBBIE

Bubblie,  if you don't already you might try loading the shifter slightly prior to shift and timing the shift nudge on the early side just as the clutch starts to release.  When I'm paying attention I do just this with a 2 finger abbreviated clutch lever pull...smooth/quiet as it gets on my softail.  Dyna doesn't need that much finesse.

[PoorUB]

I know on my '16 it rarely klanks into gear, like my '05 and '10 did. The only real change I see is the hydro clutch. I was thinking it might give a bit more travel to allow more plate clearance.

On the other hand I was sitting next to a Yamaha V-Star at a stop light and when he dropped in back into first I had to look because I did not think it was a HD, but it klanked into gear like one!

[76shuvlinoff]

If the Klank really bugs you, you could always put it in gear pull in the clutch then start it.

[Hossamania]

I do not like starting it in gear. It puts such a drag on the starter, and I can feel the bike jump forward a bit, especially when cold.
I just take ownership of the clank and bang that baby into gear and revel in the noise. Look out, coming through!
Even the BMW I was on clanked in first, second and third. I asked about it, Bjorn said that is typical BMW.

[BUBBIE]

 

I asked about it, Bjorn said that is typical BMW.




They ALL Do It over there TOO... 

signed.... BUBBIE

[Rockout Rocker Products]

Another common trait reported by almost all test riders is that you can feel each shift through the clutch lever. I'm really starting to think the klank free shifting is in the clutch actuation system somewhere, gonna start checking into part number differences etc. I know the clutch assembly itself has a different #.

[Durwood]

Another common trait reported by almost all test riders is that you can feel each shift through the clutch lever. I'm really starting to think the klank free shifting is in the clutch actuation system somewhere, gonna start checking into part number differences etc. I know the clutch assembly itself has a different #.

John, they are using a different manufacturer for the hydraulic part of the clutch in 2017 M.Y.

My local dealer said they were experiencing a large number of warranty repairs due to the old mfg/supplier.

[rbabos]

Another common trait reported by almost all test riders is that you can feel each shift through the clutch lever. I'm really starting to think the klank free shifting is in the clutch actuation system somewhere, gonna start checking into part number differences etc. I know the clutch assembly itself has a different #.

Normal. Slip assist when the ramps lock up, tend to slam the lever out and your fingers.
Bascially no point looking for a problem that doesn't exist. If you want to see this effect in all it's glory try launching in second gear as I've done a few times in the vrod. The lever actually chatters as the ramping goes in and out of tension from the motor pulses or as in the vrod case with shorter stroke the lever buzzes. I think the slip assist itself is way superior but it has this trait but one adapts in time and is barely ever noticed after that.
Ron

[04efidynasuperglide]

I've got only 100 miles on the 17 RGS so far and no klank and no real issue with clutch lever, I used to ride 04 dyna, bike is strong , bike was set up with stage one with black street cannon exhaust and heavy breather ,  the black looks good next to the olive

sgs

[Rockout Rocker Products]

Another common trait reported by almost all test riders is that you can feel each shift through the clutch lever. I'm really starting to think the klank free shifting is in the clutch actuation system somewhere, gonna start checking into part number differences etc. I know the clutch assembly itself has a different #.

John, they are using a different manufacturer for the hydraulic part of the clutch in 2017 M.Y.

My local dealer said they were experiencing a large number of warranty repairs due to the old mfg/supplier.

Good to know, thanks.

[Xyzzy]

One weird thing is if I am coasting to a stop with the clutch pulled in and I downshift (while coasting) I can feel a very slight blip/pulse in the clutch lever. I don't know why it does that. Hopefully it is no big deal.

Another common trait reported by almost all test riders is that you can feel each shift through the clutch lever.

Normal. Slip assist when the ramps lock up, tend to slam the lever out and your fingers.
Bascially no point looking for a problem that doesn't exist. If you want to see this effect in all it's glory try launching in second gear as I've done a few times in the vrod. The lever actually chatters as the ramping goes in and out of tension from the motor pulses or as in the vrod case with shorter stroke the lever buzzes. I think the slip assist itself is way superior but it has this trait but one adapts in time and is barely ever noticed after that.

[Rockout Rocker Products]

Another common trait reported by almost all test riders is that you can feel each shift through the clutch lever. I'm really starting to think the klank free shifting is in the clutch actuation system somewhere, gonna start checking into part number differences etc. I know the clutch assembly itself has a different #.

Normal. Slip assist when the ramps lock up, tend to slam the lever out and your fingers.
Bascially no point looking for a problem that doesn't exist. If you want to see this effect in all it's glory try launching in second gear as I've done a few times in the vrod. The lever actually chatters as the ramping goes in and out of tension from the motor pulses or as in the vrod case with shorter stroke the lever buzzes. I think the slip assist itself is way superior but it has this trait but one adapts in time and is barely ever noticed after that.
Ron

My '15 Limited Low has the same clutch & I have no such feedback in the lever.

One interesting note...

Way back when I bought my bike it had a serious KLANK issue, I mean way louder than most. I suspected then that clutch travel might be an issue, & wondered if maybe there was some air in the lines. When new it had a wonderful progressive feel at the lever, engaged over a wide range of travel. So of course I ruined it lol. I bled the clutch line, & the engagement moved to all the way out at the end of the lever travel. I checked the clutch throw & don't remember gaining much.... maybe .010 I think. As I recall it was about .065 or so.

I'd be very curious to see what the travel on the 17's is. Very easy to check with the derby cover off..... anyone??

[rbabos]

Another common trait reported by almost all test riders is that you can feel each shift through the clutch lever. I'm really starting to think the klank free shifting is in the clutch actuation system somewhere, gonna start checking into part number differences etc. I know the clutch assembly itself has a different #.

Normal. Slip assist when the ramps lock up, tend to slam the lever out and your fingers.
Bascially no point looking for a problem that doesn't exist. If you want to see this effect in all it's glory try launching in second gear as I've done a few times in the vrod. The lever actually chatters as the ramping goes in and out of tension from the motor pulses or as in the vrod case with shorter stroke the lever buzzes. I think the slip assist itself is way superior but it has this trait but one adapts in time and is barely ever noticed after that.
Ron

My '15 Limited Low has the same clutch & I have no such feedback in the lever.

One interesting note...

Way back when I bought my bike it had a serious KLANK issue, I mean way louder than most. I suspected then that clutch travel might be an issue, & wondered if maybe there was some air in the lines. When new it had a wonderful progressive feel at the lever, engaged over a wide range of travel. So of course I ruined it lol. I bled the clutch line, & the engagement moved to all the way out at the end of the lever travel. I checked the clutch throw & don't remember gaining much.... maybe .010 I think. As I recall it was about .065 or so.

I'd be very curious to see what the travel on the 17's is. Very easy to check with the derby cover off..... anyone??

If the throw was increased, so would the feedback to the handle. Not sure if the ramping is the same between the two either.
Ron

[Rockout Rocker Products]

'15 left, '17 right.

[Rockout Rocker Products]

Tried to order the '17 slave cylinder from Boardtracker & Surdyke... "Can only be ordered by HD tech...."

 

[koko3052]

 

[Rockout Rocker Products]

My guess is parts are going to be tightly controlled until they see what might fail out in the field & delete inventories.

[Rokinrider]

My 16 RG clanked bad until the re-call on the clutch cylinder. It's way better now, doesn't matter I going for the M ate RG Monday. wish me luck!

[UltraManPaul]

I haven't ridden one of the '17's yet, but I've been reading/viewing some of the info on the tech they're using. One of the things I remember is they've lowered the idle speed. Seems to me, if they've done that, then the gears in the trans are spinning slower at idle than on pre '17 bikes. That, combined with the other changes mentioned here could account for less or no noise when dropping into first while at idle. Personally, I like the older factory Audible First Gear Engaged Indicator.... On a slightly different note, WTF is up with the gear indicator on the newer touring bikes? If you're sitting at a light with the clutch pulled in, and don't remember if you downshifted to 1st gear, you can't look at the indicator for confirmation because it doesn't work with the clutch pulled in?!?!? How fricking useless is that?!?.... And, before anyone gives me crap about it, I'm over 50 so I'm allowed to forget things sometimes....

UMP
Also, for your enjoyment, here's a link to an informative M8 review:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAsWcrj_Y5c

[Don D]

Mine has no clunk and it is a twin cam.
Oil is my weapon. A little heavier trans oil and I use TranSynd in the primary.

[Rockout Rocker Products]

Mine has no clunk and it is a twin cam.
Oil is my weapon. A little heavier trans oil and I use TranSynd in the primary.

ATF in the primary?

Run now while you still can 

[Don D]

No running needed, what I did was without a care of peer pressure and researched.
TranSynd is API service class GL-4 rated and has a very high viscosity index. I drop the primary oil every engine change at 5k.
Works in the biggest of automatic transmissions both on road and off and has served me well in my bike. Plus one less oil to stock in the oil shed.

[Rockout Rocker Products]

No running needed, what I did was without a care of peer pressure and researched.
TranSynd is API service class GL-4 rated and has a very high viscosity index. I drop the primary oil every engine change at 5k.
Works in the biggest of automatic transmissions both on road and off and has served me well in my bike. Plus one less oil to stock in the oil shed.

Preaching to the choir here brother. I run Mobil 1 syn ATF with Lubeguard highly friction modified ATF supplement.

OK... back to M8 talk

[Jako1]

 
Bel-Ray only cuz Redline is not stocked here in Jax
Special order 2 day wait 

[ghillman]

Think slipping this in a '16 and prior trans would  reduce or eliminate the friggin " neutral rattle" . Have a '16 110 that 's reasonably quiet..as long as the clutch is pulled in ..Sure like to get rid of the rattle...Greg

[Rockout Rocker Products]

Here's a pic from another forum, a sheet given to the dealers to explain the new clutch "advantages" to customers...



Note question/answer #2. I still say that replacing the slave cylinder (and possibly the master cylinder/housing) with one from '16/earlier will fix the "problems", but make more klunk.

[rbabos]

Here's a pic from another forum, a sheet given to the dealers to explain the new clutch "advantages" to customers...



Note question/answer #2. I still say that replacing the slave cylinder (and possibly the master cylinder/housing) with one from '16/earlier will fix the "problems", but make more klunk.

Sure but you trade one problem for another. While not everyone would agree, I like more disengagement then less. The other, it seems you adapt to. Something I've not tried yet with the S&A clutch. Pretty sure it will be next to impossile to bump start, unless a steep long hill. I've restarted my vrod once but was coasting pretty good. Not sure a normal push will turn the engine over fast enough to fire it if at all.
Ron

[stogieluvr60]

Two things here...I rode a friends 17 Ultra..I didn't remember what first gear did frankly because I was amazed at how hard the clutch lever pull was...I thought that hyd. clutch was supposed to lessen clutch lever pull??...I have the heavy diaphragm spring in mine and it pulls easier than his...and my clutch cable is 6" over length (bars). As far as the clunk goes, I've used every damn thing under the sun seems like in the the trans. & primary both...Harley, Bel-Ray, Redline, Spectro...you name it...(with the exception of ATF in the primary), with more or less similar results. I happened across Shell Spirex syn. 50wt gear oil for the primary and 85w140 for the trans. These two have given me the quietest drive line I have ever had...1st gear is a click and no more at operating temps and idle....5th gear whine is nonexistent (09 Ultra)...I have found, at long last, my holy grail of drivetrain lubes. This stuff is however, not readily available...you gotta look for it...but I believe if you try it, you'll like it. Two of my buddies use them both now and are of a like mind...one in a 2011 SG and the other in a 2011 Ultra...FWIW.

[Rockout Rocker Products]

Two things here...I rode a friends 17 Ultra..I didn't remember what first gear did frankly because I was amazed at how hard the clutch lever pull was...I thought that hyd. clutch was supposed to lessen clutch lever pull??...I have the heavy diaphragm spring in mine and it pulls easier than his...and my clutch cable is 6" over length (bars). As far as the clunk goes, I've used every damn thing under the sun seems like in the the trans. & primary both...Harley, Bel-Ray, Redline, Spectro...you name it...(with the exception of ATF in the primary), with more or less similar results. I happened across Shell Spirex syn. 50wt gear oil for the primary and 85w140 for the trans. These two have given me the quietest drive line I have ever had...1st gear is a click and no more at operating temps and idle....5th gear whine is nonexistent (09 Ultra)...I have found, at long last, my holy grail of drivetrain lubes. This stuff is however, not readily available...you gotta look for it...but I believe if you try it, you'll like it. Two of my buddies use them both now and are of a like mind...one in a 2011 SG and the other in a 2011 Ultra...FWIW.

Then you haven't found the Holy Grail 

Mobil 1 syn ATF with Lubeguard highly friction modified supplement 

Back to the clutch...

I have the A&S clutch stock in my '15 Limited Low. The lever pressure is indeed lighter than a regular twin cam Limited with the normal clutch. The clutch itself is not the issue with the M8s.

[stogieluvr60]

Two things here...I rode a friends 17 Ultra..I didn't remember what first gear did frankly because I was amazed at how hard the clutch lever pull was...I thought that hyd. clutch was supposed to lessen clutch lever pull??...I have the heavy diaphragm spring in mine and it pulls easier than his...and my clutch cable is 6" over length (bars). As far as the clunk goes, I've used every damn thing under the sun seems like in the the trans. & primary both...Harley, Bel-Ray, Redline, Spectro...you name it...(with the exception of ATF in the primary), with more or less similar results. I happened across Shell Spirex syn. 50wt gear oil for the primary and 85w140 for the trans. These two have given me the quietest drive line I have ever had...1st gear is a click and no more at operating temps and idle....5th gear whine is nonexistent (09 Ultra)...I have found, at long last, my holy grail of drivetrain lubes. This stuff is however, not readily available...you gotta look for it...but I believe if you try it, you'll like it. Two of my buddies use them both now and are of a like mind...one in a 2011 SG and the other in a 2011 Ultra...FWIW.

Then you haven't found the Holy Grail 

Mobil 1 syn ATF with Lubeguard highly friction modified supplement 

Back to the clutch...

I have the A&S clutch stock in my '15 Limited Low. The lever pressure is indeed lighter than a regular twin cam Limited with the normal clutch. The clutch itself is not the issue with the M8s.

I forgot to mention I get both lubes for free to me but I have an open mind...is that Mobil 1 ATF an F type?

[Rockout Rocker Products]

Two things here...I rode a friends 17 Ultra..I didn't remember what first gear did frankly because I was amazed at how hard the clutch lever pull was...I thought that hyd. clutch was supposed to lessen clutch lever pull??...I have the heavy diaphragm spring in mine and it pulls easier than his...and my clutch cable is 6" over length (bars). As far as the clunk goes, I've used every damn thing under the sun seems like in the the trans. & primary both...Harley, Bel-Ray, Redline, Spectro...you name it...(with the exception of ATF in the primary), with more or less similar results. I happened across Shell Spirex syn. 50wt gear oil for the primary and 85w140 for the trans. These two have given me the quietest drive line I have ever had...1st gear is a click and no more at operating temps and idle....5th gear whine is nonexistent (09 Ultra)...I have found, at long last, my holy grail of drivetrain lubes. This stuff is however, not readily available...you gotta look for it...but I believe if you try it, you'll like it. Two of my buddies use them both now and are of a like mind...one in a 2011 SG and the other in a 2011 Ultra...FWIW.

Then you haven't found the Holy Grail 

Mobil 1 syn ATF with Lubeguard highly friction modified supplement 

Back to the clutch...

I have the A&S clutch stock in my '15 Limited Low. The lever pressure is indeed lighter than a regular twin cam Limited with the normal clutch. The clutch itself is not the issue with the M8s.

I forgot to mention I get both lubes for free to me but I have an open mind...is that Mobil 1 ATF an F type?

Sorry, I don't have any idea. A visit to the M1 site would probably tell.

[BUBBIE]

That's all the damn thing will do, is take up gear lash. The clunk is from stopping the shaft abruptly with the dog with some residual drive component in play from the clutch plates stuck together which is the primary cause. Poor adjustment or thick fluids.  The sudden stop breaks the oil bond on the plates, then the steels and fiber plates float past each other. The clutch pack components have a fair amount of inertia so the lighter the oil used the quicker they can separate inducing less noise to that violent action of slipping into first. In fact if the plates can seperate during the time the clutch lever is pulled in, the trans will make no other noise then a click. Seen it many times with pulling the clutch in, reving the engine a few times to make the plates break the bond, then slip in into gear. Just a click sound.
Ron






Seldom does mine Klunk IF I do the below on my COLD Start: ALL other times After Warmed IT Klunks...

Cold First Start:

I Just HOLD the clutch handle IN 5 seconds and Bleep the throttle Once, Keep holding the clutch IN 5 seconds and then try the First Gear...

Some Times MY 09 using MTL, will NOT Klunk.... I am totally SURPRISED when this happens...

signed....BUBBIE

[hogpipes1]

I haven't ridden one of the '17's yet, but I've been reading/viewing some of the info on the tech they're using. One of the things I remember is they've lowered the idle speed. Seems to me, if they've done that, then the gears in the trans are spinning slower at idle than on pre '17 bikes. That, combined with the other changes mentioned here could account for less or no noise when dropping into first while at idle. Personally, I like the older factory Audible First Gear Engaged Indicator.... On a slightly different note, WTF is up with the gear indicator on the newer touring bikes? If you're sitting at a light with the clutch pulled in, and don't remember if you downshifted to 1st gear, you can't look at the indicator for confirmation because it doesn't work with the clutch pulled in?!?!? How fricking useless is that?!?.... And, before anyone gives me crap about it, I'm over 50 so I'm allowed to forget things sometimes....

UMP
Also, for your enjoyment, here's a link to an informative M8 review:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAsWcrj_Y5c

That should not be to hard to figure , the last gear before the stop for me everytime is 2 nd. no light needed  or wanted for me .  forgetting at 50 ha wait til 70 !!

[gonenorth]

Yes, if you have the time, pull in the clutch and wait for about 30 seconds give or take, and then put it into first gear.  It'll snik right in without a clunk every time as long as the rotating bits in the trans have stopped rotating.

I've got better things to do than hold my clutch handle in for 30 seconds. Start motor, warm up for 20-30 seconds, pull clutch for two seconds, slight "blip" of throttle, bang that thing into gear. Ride.

Let it klunk into gear and start riding.

[Rockout Rocker Products]

Some guys on "another popular internet HD forum" are sending off their clutch levers to that place that reshapes them & sends them back.... brings the lever closer to the bars to reduce pull effort but reduces travel. Will be interesting to see if they get the KLANK back with less plate separation.