Loud clank inside engine

[N-gin]

Just caught wind of one of my friends out of state at a Harley DeLer has a new bike in for load clank inside engine..
No word as of yet what it is. He is going to let me know.

[happyman]

just never know

[N-gin]

Ended up to be a rocker arm.
Apparently the one arm was "shorter and creating some distance between rocker and spring" is what I was told.

[Rockout Rocker Products]

Hmmmm....

I went to the local dealer yesterday to check out the new M_8s, they had none for sale. They only got 4 17's in, & 2 of those were touring... a RG and a Limited. My sales guy took me in the back to at least have a look at them. The Limited was up on the lift with both rocker covers off.

[FSG]

Did he say why the rocker covers were off?

[Rockout Rocker Products]

Did he say why the rocker covers were off?

I didn't ask. Could have been getting a 114 kit for all I know.

Also was told the bike was pre-bought by the HD district manager. Seemed kinda unfair somehow.

[Karl H.]

Ended up to be a rocker arm.
Apparently the one arm was "shorter and creating some distance between rocker and spring" is what I was told.

I still wonder how free play tolerances between the both valves can be managed by this rockerarm without any means for adjusment 

Karl

[rbabos]

Ended up to be a rocker arm.
Apparently the one arm was "shorter and creating some distance between rocker and spring" is what I was told.

I still wonder how free play tolerances between the both valves can be managed by this rockerarm without any means for adjusment 

Karl

That makes two of us. The rest of the engine parts are no mystery as far as I'm concerned. Clearance method still unknown.
Ron

[rigidthumper]

I still think it's  one touchy, one ticky

[VDeuce]

Did the bike make the noise upon initial delivery or did the noise get worse over time?

[N-gin]

Valve adjustment is made by tilting the rocker 

I see aftermarket adjustable arms in the future for worked over heads. Heck even stockers to quiet it down.

[rbabos]

Valve adjustment is made by tilting the rocker 

I see aftermarket adjustable arms in the future for worked over heads. Heck even stockers to quiet it down.

It would make no sense to machine the rocker support so the rocker sits nicely in the half bore and then lift one end up with a shim. Machining the bore to a corrisponding slope to add clearance for that one valve would make somewhat more sense. That would still be the hard way to accomplish the goal but would reduce assembly line mistakes . I suspect a specific rocker to valve clearance interface between the two valves on the same shaft, with the shaft level. Something kinda worth knowing if one rips one appart and reassembles it.
Ron

[N-gin]

That was a joke about tilting the rocker.

[rbabos]

That was a joke about tilting the rocker.

Almost. The last shovelhead I worked on had the rocker shafts on an angle. Pretty sure it wasn't intentional that case, however. Just bad machining.
Ron

[jbexeter]

It's an interesting question, the poppet valve is well over a hundred years old and since it's invention it's been known that you need some way of adjusting clearances for;

1/ thermal expansion
2/ seats wearing or being ground down
3/ lubrication ingress
4/ wear in the guide

and usually some method of allowing for the valve to slowly rotate in the seat during operation...

But a rigid rocker shaft operating two valves simultaneously... you *could* do it with roller rockers by using two separate eccentric cams (a la 19080's ducati rear swing arm adjustment) at each end of the rocker shaft and letting hydraulic lifters take care of everything "upstream" of the rocker shaft without needing to adjust pushrods etc.

In fact one of trhe photos in the other thread shows what appears to be an uneven eccentric gap around the end of a rocker shaft which would allow this.

I do find it odd that the product is released into the wild and there are apparently no official service data for this.

[BUBBIE]

File/grind off the Rocker Arm to fit Both Flush... Easy Peasy  Why Not? 

signed....BUBBIE

[rbabos]

File/grind off the Rocker Arm to fit Both Flush... Easy Peasy  Why Not? 

signed....BUBBIE

I've pondered this system on and off and this is what my pea brain came up with.
It might start out with both even between rocker feet or close to it but in operation one rocker foot will eventually develop some clearance or even clearance change between valves over a long time. A few thou only.  Why, valve seat wear differences between the two valves on one rocker. If one valve starts to seat a little deeper the other will end up with a tad clearance. Since either valve can control the 0 lash point for the hydraulic, that will be controlled with the valve tip that sticks out the furthest. Shouldn't matter which one for the hydraulic since it will only react to the longer valve.  The other valve will have clearance as a result . Thinking it through, I see no condition where either valve runs the risk of not closing and leaking. So based on this, does one really need an adjustment on the one valve as is in most 4 valve heads? Looks like the worst that can happen is one valve could end up with a hair more clearance and tick more then normal. The tightest can only be with both even. Could it be that ridiculously stupid simple? Then again, the 1900 Yamaha has 4 valve hydraulic lifters but has one adjuster for that one valve. So, did they assume it needed it or failed to see it might not be needed in the first place, based on my radical theory above?
Ron

[Rockout Rocker Products]

My guess is that the service manual will have a wear limit.... a max gap a feeler gauge can go through. Once that limit is reached, replace the rocker arm with HD part #XXXXXXXXX-17A for +.005 on the left side, or #XXXXXXXXXX-17B for +.005 on the right side. Rockers will probably be way less than $100 each, not a huge deal depending on the service life.

An indy with a surface grinder can just "adjust" the pad on one side.

[shovelinabox]

Ended up to be a rocker arm.
Apparently the one arm was "shorter and creating some distance between rocker and spring" is what I was told.

I still wonder how free play tolerances between the both valves can be managed by this rockerarm without any means for adjusment 

A friend and I were discussing the same thing today.

Karl

That makes two of us. The rest of the engine parts are no mystery as far as I'm concerned. Clearance method still unknown.
Ron

[JohnCA58]

Valve adjustment is made by tilting the rocker 

I see aftermarket adjustable arms in the future for worked over heads. Heck even stockers to quiet it down.

In big diesel, we have not been running adjustable screws on the 4 valve heads in ages,  no problem in million miles engines. 

[Ajayrk]

I still think it's  one touchy, one ticky

[BUBBIE]

My little Die-grinder at ANY given/needed miles IF Noise WEARS Back..... Would do its Magic Again for the proper fit... easy peasy... 

I'll not make it a Huge Project... 

That "adjustable" for one of the rocker pushers would do a Good job... FUSSY riders that can't take a LITTLE Tick would be Fiddling with it Often...

FIDDLING: fiddling |ˈfidli ng; ˈfidl-i ng |
adjective
annoyingly trivial or petty :

signed....BUBBIE

[Karl H.]

Maybe it's a non issue   

On the other hand: Look at the technical investments made by Yamaha and Kawaski with similar engines!

Yamaha MT
[attach=0]
[attachimg=3]

Kawasaki Vulcan 2000 (4 tiny hydro tappets inside the rocker arms)
[attach=1]
[attachimg=4]

Karl

[glens]

Maybe there's enough torsional flex built into the rocker so's it'll always be quiet.

[Karl H.]

 

[rbabos]

Maybe it's a non issue   

On the other hand: Look at the technical investments made by Yamaha and Kawaski with similar engines!

Yamaha MT
[attach=0]
[attachimg=3]

Kawasaki Vulcan 2000 (4 tiny hydro tappets inside the rocker arms)
[attach=1]
[attachimg=4]

Karl

Two things. Are the adjusters only a starting point to get both valves set to 0 clearance and not really needed from there on but more to take care of manufacturing tolerances.  That case , other means can be had for setting the two valves up within .000 - .005 of each other as a starting point as in no adjuster should be required.  This only works with a hydraulic lifter system, not solids. Now Kawi is the ultimate solution. Slap the components together and let each hydro compensating device take care of 0 lash. These engines are scary quiet by the way.
I still say if the initial valve to rocker clearances are matched to 0-.005 variance between the two valves the hydraulics will take care of it from there based on my explanation in a previous post.
Ron

[88b]

Maybe it's a non issue   

On the other hand: Look at the technical investments made by Yamaha and Kawaski with similar engines!

Yamaha MT
[attach=0]
[attachimg=3]

Kawasaki Vulcan 2000 (4 tiny hydro tappets inside the rocker arms)
[attach=1]
[attachimg=4]

Karl

That's what I was hoping to see, then I saw the first images and knew it was only a matter of time before it was a problem. That time was shorter than I thought.

[trex]

Why not just make one of the pushrods on each cylinder an adjustable. EASY

[PoorUB]

Why not just make one of the pushrods on each cylinder an adjustable. EASY

The "pushrods" are already auto adjusting through the lifters. The paired, nonadjustable rocker arms are what is strange.

[trex]

Why not just make one of the pushrods on each cylinder an adjustable. EASY

The "pushrods" are already auto adjusting through the lifters. The paired, nonadjustable rocker arms are what is strange.

Of course, I wasn't thinking clearly. The rocker arm makes my suggestion stupid.

[BUBBIE]

When I get mine.......

Die-grinder to Split the hairs to a few CLOSE thous... Good enough for me... 

signed....BUBBIE

[rbabos]

When I get mine.......

Die-grinder to Split the hairs to a few CLOSE thous... Good enough for me... 

signed....BUBBIE

There you go. Why complicate the damn process?
Ron

[glens]

shims under buckets

[rbabos]

shims under buckets

That would be the v rod or many other overhead cam units out there. Not needed with this hydro,  pushrod,  rocker arm system.
Ron

[Moparnut72]

My little Die-grinder at ANY given/needed miles IF Noise WEARS Back..... Would do its Magic Again for the proper fit... easy peasy... 

I'll not make it a Huge Project... 

That "adjustable" for one of the rocker pushers would do a Good job... FUSSY riders that can't take a LITTLE Tick would be Fiddling with it Often...

FIDDLING: fiddling |ˈfidli ng; ˈfidl-i ng |
adjective
annoyingly trivial or petty :

signed....BUBBIE

Just a thought. If one were to take a little off one of the rocker arm contact points, would you be going thru any  surface hardening? Taking a little off the end of a valve might be better but would be harder to access. Valves are ground on all the time.

[trex]

Was there any procedure to adjust the valves separately on the Fueling 4 valve heads? If not was it ever an issue?

[Karl H.]

Was there any procedure to adjust the valves separately on the Fueling 4 valve heads? If not was it ever an issue?

[attach=0]

[trex]

That looks good. Am I wrong in thinking that only one adjuster is needed on each rocker, back it off and let the lifter fix clearance then adjust the other to it?

[Karl H.]

Right! See Yamaha MT1

[trex]

Thanks. Maybe it will end up not being an issue though, we will see.

[rbabos]

Thanks. Maybe it will end up not being an issue though, we will see.

It really shouldn't be an issue even without one adjuster.as long as the factory sets them up below the max of .008 variance. Having one adjuster helps slack up mfg tolerances with valve protrusions and the adjuster comes in handy in those cases. In hydraulic unit's like the Yamaha similar to what the M8 is now, adjustments are seldom done or needed. Only solid lifters require a touch up now and then and both valves will have adjusters.  If the valves are set up for that initial clearance between the two valves, as in the M8 with hydraulics then need for adjusting becomes a non issue. Doing valves or head work will make for an extra step to keep them in spec however. No big deal really.
Ron