T&T 9-2-16

[2006FXDCI]

I made a clutch and suspension change to my dyna and went out to the track last night to see if it made any improvements . My dyna has been wheelstanding pretty bad off the line so i softened up my rear shocks quite a bit to try and avoid the big wheelies . It felt very odd at first , my 60' times are a little slower than normal but my mph picked up like crazy . I ran 9 mph faster than ive ever went . Here are my slips for my 3 passes , im #875 . Left lane on the first pass and right lane on the last 2 passes

[2006FXDCI]

Here are links to videos for my 3 passes . 2 videos for each pass , one from the stands and also from my gopro . My gopro angle was a little low , wish i got a little better footage for you guys .
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yVyWuHL9hAM

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=omu0BdVzth8

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_b3ixRWrdzk

Gopro videos
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5SE4PN2zIl4

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YYbvqZgtWK0

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d8V8NuBc3sw

[2006FXDCI]

Some of you guys in the know will recognize who i ran against in the 2nd and 3rd rounds . I couldnt be happier with how my bike performed against his . He wanted to use a pro tree which ive never used . I didnt pull out a win but in round 3 he only got me by .09 seconds . I couldnt be happier with how it all turned out . Another great night at the track !

[No Cents]

 that was a T143 you was up against on the 2nd and 3rd passes...wasn't it 
Your bike sounds good...and it looks like it is running very strong Josh! 

Ray

[2006FXDCI]

You are correct Ray ! Thank you for the compliments . Im really impressed on how well this little basement built 107" is performing on the track .

[westcomb]

Nice! 11.66 is that your best pass yet? ............. 11 sec Harley's are pretty fun! 

[2006FXDCI]

Nice! 11.66 is that your best pass yet? ............. 11 sec Harley's are pretty fun! 

My fastest pass to date was an 11.52 . And youre right , 11 sec harleys are a blast ! Hoping in the next few years to find out how fun a 10 sec harley is !

[Don D]

That motor has more than what the dyno showed. MPH shows that.
Good job Josh.

[2006FXDCI]

Thanks Don ! And thanks for the great machine work you did for me . Exceeded all my expectations

[2006FXDCI]

That motor has more than what the dyno showed. MPH shows that.
Good job Josh.

One thing ive learned this year is a dyno sheet doesnt tell the whole story of how a bike will perform at the track . There are many other factors at play . Pretty dyno sheets to show your friends at the bar are nice . Time slips are even better 

[pwmorris]

That motor has more than what the dyno showed. MPH shows that.
Good job Josh.

One thing ive learned this year is a dyno sheet doesnt tell the whole story of how a bike will perform at the track . There are many other factors at play . Pretty dyno sheets to show your friends at the bar are nice . Time slips are even better 

Bingo-

Don't drink the mph kool aid right now. Your HP is showing, which is sweet mph on the big end.
Motor or other factors at play...
60' is down, but thats OK for now. 60 is all that matters now with what you are dialing in.
60', 60', 60'!
60 equals ET in your situation at this point.
60 down, ET down...

[2006FXDCI]

Thanks Paul ! It was amazing the difference the suspension change made . It was a bit too soft , 60' times suffered but mph picked up . Today I set my shocks midway between the original setting and where i ran them on friday . Hoping to gain 60' time back and keep some of the mph . If theres anything ive learned from you guys its that 60' times rules ! Just experimenting with what i have right now to do the best i can on a stock chassis . 4-6" swingarm and air shifter are in my future 

[pwmorris]

I made a clutch and suspension change to my dyna and went out to the track last night to see if it made any improvements . My dyna has been wheelstanding pretty bad off the line so i softened up my rear shocks quite a bit to try and avoid the big wheelies . It felt very odd at first , my 60' times are a little slower than normal but my mph picked up like crazy . I ran 9 mph faster than ive ever went . Here are my slips for my 3 passes , im #875 . Left lane on the first pass and right lane on the last 2 passes

That is 10 Second MPH right there.
I got in the 10 Second Club with a 10.88 @ 122 mph so you have the HP!
Bring those revs up and work that clutch out of the hole or get a lock up, dial it in, and let the clutch do the work...
First 1/8 mile is where you need to focus..
7.50-7.80 1/8th means slow out of the hole, maybe shift points too low, gearing not pulling hard enough, bike weight, slow gear changes (with rpm/power drop and having to climb back into power band) and maybe other factors which you will solve, for sure.

Awesome progress-great with the skills you are learning now...

[2006FXDCI]

Paul , thank you for all the compliments ! So nice to hear that from one of the fastest street guys out there . I will attach a pic of my gearing , maybe you could suggest some changes ? As it stands now its tough to 60' it without shifting into 2nd . I go through the traps at the end in 5th gear right around 5850 rpm's . Thank you for any help , Josh

[pwmorris]

No wonder you are wheel standing out of the hole.
Aren't you running a Bandit Sportsman? Great clutch but it comes in instantly and grabs.
I run lower numerically gearing in first (I think around 2.95 but I have to check).

Basically, your clutch is instantly locking up, and your first gear is deep, which, combined with the torque of a built VTwin, is either gonna spin your tire or wheel stand if you hook up.
Result=Crap 60'-
You can work on finessing the clutch out of the hole, but without a lockup you are going to smoke that pack in no time.
Basically, I like to drive the bike out of the hole hard. You can hear the motor up and revving, then release the bike by clutch control, unleashing that store energy. A lower first gear helps keep the front wheel down as well and drive that bike forward...
I run a 5 speed so I can't help with overall gearing but I am around 3.50 overall-1:1 by 1/8 mile and horsepower all the way to the traps...
I would like to see you at a higher rpm thru the traps, maybe 6,200, depending on your powerband.

Also, couldn't tell for sure by the video, but are you rolling off the throttle to shift each gear?
This ain't the street!
Most of your shifting is in the first 1/8 so your rpm must be dropping big time with each shift.
You then have to start building up that power all over again with each shift, so basically you are fighting yourself uphill till you get a full head of steam on the big end.

[2006FXDCI]

Paul , would this tranny gearing be the way to go ? If so its a grudge box z that i need to buy . Im kind of stuck with my tranny gearing for now until i can afford a new one . I dump the clutch pretty hard when i leave thus the big wheelstands . I am running a bandit sportsman . Sometimes when my tranny is agreeing with me i will roll off the throttle as quickly as i can to shift without the clutch . Most times it will kick out of 3rd so ive resorted to fanning the clutch most times . Thank you for your input , i just wanna go in the right direction .

[Jonny Cash]

Getting the bike closer to the ground will help with the wheelie problem too, been going through some of the same  learning curve.  A lower center of gravity helped me a bunch as did lowering my final drive ratio.  I finally broke into the 1.60's 60' Friday. 

[2006FXDCI]

What final drive ratio are you running ?

[Jonny Cash]

What final drive ratio are you running ?

23/54 for a final of 3:38, its a 5 speed bike and I did the 2.94 first gear.  I probably could have went to a 55 rear for a final of 3.44. The front tire is back to just skimming the ground in 1st, but it yanks about a foot high all the way through 2nd.  I will find out what kind of 1/4 time it will run in a couple weeks, I'm going to the bagger race in NC and running street class.  Its been a long year of trial and error but I feel I am finally getting there.  A front end strap helped me quite a bit, got me lower and limits upward travel. 

[westcomb]

11.52 that's fast! .......... I'm around the same place as you and I also need to work on my 60ft .......... All of my pass's seem to be the same once you look at the 60 .....if I'm a tenth slower on the 60 I'm about a tenth slower at the end and so on .......... Looks like we both could use a lock up! 

My gearing is way off as well ......... no wheelies at the track unless I role off the line ..... I just blow the tire off! ...... on the street tho rolling and crack it open I stand right up! ..... Its fun to ride for sure!

Good luck to you I'll be paying attention! 

[2006FXDCI]

Thanks Westcomb ! I would love a lockup for my bandit amongst a ton of other goodies ! Swingarm , air shifter and a grudge box Z would be a great start . PM me anytime if you want to discuss anything , maybe we could help each other out . Josh

[pwmorris]

Paul , would this tranny gearing be the way to go ? If so its a grudge box z that i need to buy . Im kind of stuck with my tranny gearing for now until i can afford a new one . I dump the clutch pretty hard when i leave thus the big wheelstands . I am running a bandit sportsman . Sometimes when my tranny is agreeing with me i will roll off the throttle as quickly as i can to shift without the clutch . Most times it will kick out of 3rd so ive resorted to fanning the clutch most times . Thank you for your input , i just wanna go in the right direction .

I like it-
Lower first and a 1:1 5th, with an overdrive for high speed, relaxed cruzin'. Nice-
Not sure what that trans costs, but you could call Mark @ R&D, and see what a full treatment upgrade of your current trans would be. Similar ratios, back cut, and all the trimmings.

[2006FXDCI]

Paul , thank you ! Ive never heard of R&D . So they can change the gear ratios on my stock 6 speed tranny ? That would be awesome ! Baker wants $3400 for their grudge box tranny . Thats out of my price range right now

[2006FXDCI]

Paul , i called Mark from R&D . There isnt much they can do for the harley cruise drive 6 speed  . No one makes gears for them . They do offer a friction resistant coating and will back cut my gears but thats about all that can be done . With that said Mark said to try going from a 56t rear sprocket to a 54t to see if that helps tame it down some on the launch and help my 60' times .

[jam65]

I did the R&D treatment on my 6 speed and the back cut of the gears makes it shift like butter. Like Paul said, set your gearing up to pull higher rpms through the trap. That second gear shift may raise the front end but power through it and count on it to come down soft and you get ready to shift to 3rd. Have fun and take your time to experiment.

[2006FXDCI]

Jay , im not sure which way to go . Im at 3.15 now and 1st gear feels to deep . Im running 24/56 sprockets , thinking of going to a 54 rear to tame it down and help my 60' times . But by doing that i will be at a lower rpm in 5th gear coming through the traps . Im getting confused thinking about it  . What final gear ratio are you running Jay ?

[jam65]

My bike set up and yours are a little bit different. What may work for me just might be all wrong for you as far as gearing goes. Listen to Paul and do your own testing. Pull your highest possible rpms through the trap and work on what gets you out of the hole the best on that 1,2 shift.

[2006FXDCI]

Thanks Jay , with that being said i think im going to try a 52 or 51 rear sprocket . It will allow me to go through the traps in 4th gear around 6300 rpm's at 120mph or so . Should make the 60' easier and allow me to stay in 1st gear through the 60' traps . It will also eliminate one shift in my run . What do you guys think ?

[pwmorris]

Looks like you are in a pickle here. Sucks about R&D, but as Jay said, the back cutting and other mods help quite a bit.
Don't know about the 6 speeds, but I don't like to keep pulling and stretching out my pulling gears all the way to the traps. I like to get in my 1:1 HP gear (5th for me), ASAP, ideally by the 1/8 mile.
I'm not sure if you go smaller sprocket in the rear, it will only help one problem, launch, and create another one, slower overall et and mph. It could help but only by testing will you find out. I have failed many times with testing stuff but that's ok, you just keep going till it's right.
If you leave in the deep gearing, there is one way around it....clutch mods. A lock up type clutch will allow you to keep the gearing you have and still have smooth, hard launches.
If you send your clutch to Bandit, don't go with their 3 finger which comes in at one stage then immediately locks up. Go with the second gen MTC on your Bandit pack. Killer once dialed in...you could 60' ft in the 1.50's with your stock wheelbase.

You could then run even deeper gearing-not taller. Deeper overall gearing, say 3.30, 3.40 or even more, will pull the bike even harder and get you into the higher rpms in your mph gear.

Money-

[westcomb]

That sounds like a pretty good plan! 

[2006FXDCI]

That sounds like a pretty good plan! 

Changing gearing like i posted or what Paul suggested with the bandit lockup ?

[wfolarry]

Some guys that are short on $$$ will change the gearing so that they redline through the traps & start off in 2nd.
Do the math & see where that 2nd gear ends up.

[IronMike113]

Looks Great Josh,Prime Example of hard work and persistence Will Pay off,Like mentioned in above post, There's more to be had,And I know you're going to get it..........🏍💨💨💨💨💨

[2006FXDCI]

Larry , i think you might be onto something ! Did the math using a 64t rear AND taking 2 teeth of the compensator and i like what i see ! It will even let me use my 1-1 gear !! What do you think ? 2nd is pretty tall this way , would take some clutching .

[westcomb]

That sounds like a pretty good plan! 

Changing gearing like i posted or what Paul suggested with the bandit lockup ?

I was talking about the lock up ........... 1.5 60's sound pretty sweet to me! ........ My best without a lock up is 1.67 and I have never had one that good since! ....... that was my best pass so far ..... I went 11.42 @ 122 that pass! ..... if I could get a 1.6 or better 60 foot I would be a happy man! 

I do thing gearing will help tho! ........ I know my bike needs to loose power on take off I spin a lot ........ Not sure you have the same problem tho? ........ sounds like a wheelie bar would help tho! 

Stiff shocks and strap the front will help! ....... I seem to do better with rear struts over my soft shocks? ....... I run the struts for my wheelie bar is all ......... ( and its not really needed like I hoped! lol)

My gearing is primary is 45 - 68 (1.51) rear is 24 - 51 (2.125) and I run a late HD 5 speed ....... but in a Bagger so little different ....

[westcomb]

Some guys that are short on $$$ will change the gearing so that they redline through the traps & start off in 2nd.
Do the math & see where that 2nd gear ends up.

I tried the 2nd gear take off .......... looks like I have too much gear in first but too little in 2nd tho!  ........ almost stalled!

BTW I hope I'm not stepping on your thread! ........

[2006FXDCI]

Westcomb , no worries ! All good info here ! The problem with a bandit lockup is it will not fit under the primary cover , extensive cutting and welding are required i believe to make it fit .

[westcomb]

Yeah I know the Bandit is pretty wide ......... just bolted one my a buddys fat boy ...... you have to grind on the cover to fit without a lock up! ....... you can buy a wider outter cover? ...... but I think there over $700 

I am running a Pro clutch set up ...... Not sure the lock up will fit on mine? ......... I have more room than the bandit right now? .......... I have a belt drive so its not a stock basket with little friction area like to kits made to bolt in ........ it hooks pretty good but I have killed a steel last year at the track!

I would be big $$$$ for me to swap to a Bandit with a lock up as well! ........  ........ I may just suck it up tho? ...... may try the pro clutch lock up first tho?

I am going to back cut a 5 speed this winter and see how that works as well .......... a shift interrupt would be nice ........ and I guess I should have used the air shifter I sold to a buddy too! 

[2006FXDCI]

I use a rivera pro with a lockup and gold spring on my electra glide . Needed about 1/4" spacer between the derby cover and primary cover to make it fit . Works good on my 124"

[pwmorris]

I use a rivera pro with a lockup and gold spring on my electra glide . Needed about 1/4" spacer between the derby cover and primary cover to make it fit . Works good on my 124"

Hmmm...
Can you switch out the clutches bike to bike?
I can help you dial in the Rivera with L/U if you want.
I ran that set up for years and dialed it in to slip off the line, then lock up.
Do you have one of the newer L/U on it with removable weights?

[2006FXDCI]

Paul , my rivera pro is on a 5 speed bike and the bandit is on a 6 speed so no luck there in swapping the two .

[westcomb]

Paul , my rivera pro is on a 5 speed bike and the bandit is on a 6 speed so no luck there in swapping the two .

I thought the 6 speed kept the same spline as the 5 speeds?  ...... you sure it will not work? ....... I could see the basket having a different starter ring gear depending on what year your pro clutch is for! ...... 98 - 06 on some! ...... You can run a later 90-97 clutch with the right starter drive as well ......

I guess what I am saying is swapping the basket with the clutch are you sure it will not work? ....... early and late evo's have different teeth count on the basket as well ...... so there are things that could be different but if you set your mind to it I bet it could be done?

[2006FXDCI]

I figured the splines were different . Thanks for that info ! Definitely different starter ring gears on them .

[pwmorris]

More T&T might find some gains, but soon you will "hit the wall", which is basically all you can do with the bike and HP as it sits, as is, right now. It will be a challenge to run 10's as is, but if you can do it, it would be an awesome achievement on a heavy, stock wheelbase, foot shifted Dyna with a 107"-
You have a solid 11 second, pump gas Harley-an impressive achievement for anyone, anywhere.
Remember, there are guys on this site and at every watering hole across the Country, who talk big dyno numbers and when they "plan on hitting the track", but they never do. Even if they actually show up, they are slow and so full of excuses why they are so slow for what they have, it's hilarious.
You are the real deal Josh.

Your second gear is a dog IMO and you will not be able to launch from it. You would need sport bike type rpms and weight to make it work. But hey, try it and see how it works-what ya got to lose?

I say keep hitting T&T and play with different set ups, or find cash to get what you know you need.
I have canceled vacations, worked two jobs, bartered, and traded stuff, and busted my ass to push forward.
Depends on your own goals and objectives.

[2006FXDCI]

Paul , thank you for all the kind words and encouragement ! Sometimes i get so tied up thinking about what to do next that i forget about what a great time im having ! In all reality i couldnt be happier or more proud of myself for what ive done this year . From tearing the entire bike apart through the winter and rebuilding it all piece by piece with my own hands to making 11 second passes at the strip all year on it ! I owe allot of my success to members of this forum for sharing information with me . I hope by posting my experiences at the track that i encourage some other people to get out there and do the same thing . Paul im going to follow your advice and keep T&Ting til i get the combo i have consistent , hopefully low 11's ! I am going to be saving my pennies for the various parts needed to make this a 10 second bike . Ive got a wealth of knowledge on tap from you guys and GMS racing to help with setting my chassis up for the task at hand . I would really like to keep it a 107" as long as possible , i love this little motor