New Milwaukee 8 Cylinder Head Temperatures

[AllenZ]

I was interested in engine temperature and had the opportunity to test ride a few different bikes. I brought an inferred temperature gun with me. All bikes that I drove had the catalytic converter in the head pipe.

Here are the results:
2017 CVO Ultra - 114 C.I. engine water cooled - 20 minute ride -  out side temperature 91 degrees - temperature checked with an inferred temperature gun taken just in front of the spark plugs - both cylinders were at 225 degrees F. - rear cylinder just went into heat management just before testing do to high out side air temperature.

2017 Street Glide  - 107 C.I. engine oil cooled - Screaming eagle Street Cannon mufflers, Screaming Eagle air cleaner, and dealer tune - 20 minute ride -  out side temperature 91 degrees - temperature checked with an inferred temperature gun taken just in front of the spark plugs - both cylinders were at 315 degrees F. - rear cylinder just went into heat management just before testing do to high out side air temperature.

Conclusion:
The 2017 CVO 114 C.I. water cooled was 90 degrees F. cooler than a 2017 107 C.I. oil cooled engine with
Screaming Eagle Street Cannon mufflers, Screaming Eagle air cleaner, and a dealer tune.

Now a week ago I test rode the following and checked temperature readings as follows:

2017 Eletraglide Ultra - 107 C.I. engine oil cooled with lower leg fairings - 20 minute ride -  out side temperature 86 degrees - temperature checked with an inferred temperature gun taken just in front of the spark plugs - both cylinders were at 365 degrees F. - rear cylinder just went into heat management just before testing do to high out side air temperature.

2014 Eletraglide Ultra - 103 C.I. engine air cooled with no lower leg fairings, No tune, and Screaming Eagle Street Cannon mufflers - 20 minute ride -  out side temperature 86 degrees - temperature checked with an inferred temperature gun taken just in front of the spark plugs - both cylinders were at 354 degrees F. - rear cylinder just went into heat management just before testing do to high out side air temperature.

Conclusion:
The 2014 Eletraglide Ultra 103 air cooled engine without lower leg fairings was 11 degrees cooler than a stock 2017 Eletraglide Ultra 107 C.I. engine oil cooled engine with lower leg fairings.

Final thoughts:
2017 water cooled engines have more affective cooling that the 2017 oil cooled engines.
I have herd that the new engines are running a higher compression ratio with as much as a 240 P.S.I. cylinder pressure that I believe would create more heat. The 2017 oil cooled engines seem to run just a bit hotter that the 2014 air cooled engines. Of course that is cylinder head temperature. The new bikes have the catalytic converter moved back in the head pipe so rider comfort is better on the newer bikes.

Now I do not know how much a dealer tune will affect the air fuel ratio with the limits that are now imposed on Harley Davidson but I can tell you that a 2017 Street Glide 107 C.I. oil cooled engine running no lower leg fairings with a basic dealer stage one (Screaming eagle Street Cannon mufflers, Screaming Eagle air cleaner, and dealer tune) was 50 degrees F. cooler than a 2017 Ultra 107 C.I. engines stock running lower leg fairings. How much difference the lower leg fairings made in engine cooling I don't know.

Just some information I thought I would share.

[-deuced-]

interesting post, thanks. 

[PoorUB]

I question the value of such tests. You could take 10 stock motorcycles of the same model off the showroom floor, do the same tests and the head temps will be from on end of the spectrum to the other. Testing 3-4 motorcycles means nothing as you could have accidentally picked the two from either end of the extremes. Test 100 and get back to me.

[04efidynasuperglide]

my test pretty much the same as the posters SG

my 17 RGS equipped the same and about the same readings, fwiw

wanted to test the heat at the cat area near pass footpeg, approx. 400  ,,may need to shield that somehow

any ideas?

chieffie

[Bakon]

Like to know what a 2014 water cooled 103 or cvo 110 compares to new head design. If the hype the motor company is for cooler motor was compared to air cooled 16 or water cooled?

[Templer]

Has anyone pulled the new injectors and flow checked them? If all factory tunes and parts installed to the same given CI motor are the same would they not BE the same? I would question the % of difference between the injectors.  Possibly vary in same motor head temps! they must come from the injector manufacturer within a % of each other? giving both may be OEM specs BUT at opposite ends of the % and the same program install to any ECM THEY WOULD BE quite different. When the bike is tuned (Dyno operators can ring in on this) are not all the tables tuned with the #s? Different delivery amount from each cylinder causes different #s front to rear? Given temps are different and timing due to design They still are in large tuned with a wand PER cylinder with the current injector to that cylinder but are OEM as a set within %. Lets say 10% difference between injectors with each at the max min and max.What would the motor run like?

[Smarty]

I question the value of such tests. You could take 10 stock motorcycles of the same model off the showroom floor, do the same tests and the head temps will be from on end of the spectrum to the other. Testing 3-4 motorcycles means nothing as you could have accidentally picked the two from either end of the extremes. Test 100 and get back to me.

I second that and with the new 17, not nearly broken in enough to do any kind of fair test.

[glens]

Has anyone pulled the new injectors and flow checked them? If all factory tunes and parts installed to the same given CI motor are the same would they not BE the same? I would question the % of difference between the injectors.  Possibly vary in same motor head temps! they must come from the injector manufacturer within a % of each other? giving both may be OEM specs BUT at opposite ends of the % and the same program install to any ECM THEY WOULD BE quite different. When the bike is tuned (Dyno operators can ring in on this) are not all the tables tuned with the #s? Different delivery amount from each cylinder causes different #s front to rear? Given temps are different and timing due to design They still are in large tuned with a wand PER cylinder with the current injector to that cylinder but are OEM as a set within %. Lets say 10% difference between injectors with each at the max min and max.What would the motor run like?

Would've pared down the quote but am on a "smart phone"...

Running closed-loop, with learned adaptives, this is pretty much a non-issue.  Sure, it'd be better with individual tuning, but with that usually comes other optimizations as well, hence the better results of doing so.

[Templer]

Has anyone pulled the new injectors and flow checked them? If all factory tunes and parts installed to the same given CI motor are the same would they not BE the same? I would question the % of difference between the injectors.  Possibly vary in same motor head temps! they must come from the injector manufacturer within a % of each other? giving both may be OEM specs BUT at opposite ends of the % and the same program install to any ECM THEY WOULD BE quite different. When the bike is tuned (Dyno operators can ring in on this) are not all the tables tuned with the #s? Different delivery amount from each cylinder causes different #s front to rear? Given temps are different and timing due to design They still are in large tuned with a wand PER cylinder with the current injector to that cylinder but are OEM as a set within %. Lets say 10% difference between injectors with each at the max min and max.What would the motor run like?

Would've pared down the quote but am on a "smart phone"...

Running closed-loop, with learned adaptives, this is pretty much a non-issue.  Sure, it'd be better with individual tuning, but with that usually comes other optimizations as well, hence the better results of doing so.

That would make sense BUT what about a OPEN loop retuned bike: then injector change or malfunction?

[glens]

That would make sense BUT what about a OPEN loop retuned bike: then injector change or malfunction?

I wouldn't do open-loop-only, personally, and wouldn't recommend it unless it was for closed-course (or straight-course) operation only, and that with consistent fuel availability.  The (in)consistent fuel factor of using a bike to travel at all makes closed-loop almost a necessity anymore with EFI, in my book.

That being said, open-loop EFI with any sensor or component (like injector or fuel pressure regulator) changes would most certainly merit at least measured confirmation of suitability before typical use commences.  In my book.  Hell, I'm anal enough to run a confirmation check under those circumstances even running closed-loop.

[harleytuner]

Has anyone pulled the new injectors and flow checked them? If all factory tunes and parts installed to the same given CI motor are the same would they not BE the same? I would question the % of difference between the injectors.  Possibly vary in same motor head temps! they must come from the injector manufacturer within a % of each other? giving both may be OEM specs BUT at opposite ends of the % and the same program install to any ECM THEY WOULD BE quite different. When the bike is tuned (Dyno operators can ring in on this) are not all the tables tuned with the #s? Different delivery amount from each cylinder causes different #s front to rear? Given temps are different and timing due to design They still are in large tuned with a wand PER cylinder with the current injector to that cylinder but are OEM as a set within %. Lets say 10% difference between injectors with each at the max min and max.What would the motor run like?

I can tell you that a stage III 114 kit has an injector duty cycle hitting 85% at 4k wide open, 100% at around 5k. 

[BVHOG]

That would make sense BUT what about a OPEN loop retuned bike: then injector change or malfunction?

I wouldn't do open-loop-only, personally, and wouldn't recommend it unless it was for closed-course (or straight-course) operation only, and that with consistent fuel availability.  The (in)consistent fuel factor of using a bike to travel at all makes closed-loop almost a necessity anymore with EFI, in my book.

That being said, open-loop EFI with any sensor or component (like injector or fuel pressure regulator) changes would most certainly merit at least measured confirmation of suitability before typical use commences.  In my book.  Hell, I'm anal enough to run a confirmation check under those circumstances even running closed-loop.

So explain how the hell the 02 to 06 Delphi bikes seem to run perfect cross country and back. I'm not against closed loop but I have had my fill of seeing adaptive fuel fuck up a good tune. Thank god for the PV with adaptive control on/off

[glens]

So explain how the hell the 02 to 06 Delphi bikes seem to run perfect cross country and back. I'm not against closed loop but I have had my fill of seeing adaptive fuel "potty mouth! " up a good tune. Thank god for the PV with adaptive control on/off

Seem to run perfect under all conditions would be my guess, along with tuning richer than necessary for a margin of error.  Adaptive going the wrong way is invariably the result of "garbage in, garbage out" from either one or both O2 sensors failing to do their job properly.  Sensor just not working right all on its own or because it's not getting the proper chance.  (How many times have the good tunes been "potty mouth"ed towards running leaner, or is it without fail going richer?)  At least with the feedback in place any other EFI component wandering out of bounds has a chance of being "checks and balance"d enough to allow finishing the trip home.

[BVHOG]

So explain how the hell the 02 to 06 Delphi bikes seem to run perfect cross country and back. I'm not against closed loop but I have had my fill of seeing adaptive fuel "potty mouth! " up a good tune. Thank god for the PV with adaptive control on/off

Seem to run perfect under all conditions would be my guess, along with tuning richer than necessary for a margin of error.  Adaptive going the wrong way is invariably the result of "garbage in, garbage out" from either one or both O2 sensors failing to do their job properly.  Sensor just not working right all on its own or because it's not getting the proper chance.  (How many times have the good tunes been "potty mouth"ed towards running leaner, or is it without fail going richer?)  At least with the feedback in place any other EFI component wandering out of bounds has a chance of being "checks and balance"d enough to allow finishing the trip home.

Just keep in mind it's not just the sensor placement but high overlap cams, poor muffler choice etc. The problem comes in when the adaptive control changes areas that you don't want changed, example those hard to sample areas of low rpm, high map area that are critical for decent throttle response. Those early cable drive Delphi non 02 bikes are still some of the best running, best driving bikes on the road and my 2002 127 gets a bit over 40 mpg the same as my 16 limited in closed loop.
As for other sensors going bad the 02 sensor is by far the most problematic sensor on the Delphi system.

[Rockout Rocker Products]

Like to know what a 2014 water cooled 103 or cvo 110 compares to new head design. If the hype the motor company is for cooler motor was compared to air cooled 16 or water cooled?

'15 Limited wethead... 235/245

[Y2KRKNG]

Oh man. What would the temps be in the high desert 2% humidity, 100+*s, mobbing the superslab pulling grades?? Looks like water is the lesser of 2 evils.