TIMING....... IS EVERYTHING !

[Sonny S.]

Interested in sharing your timing table, ignition module settings or just any timing related information ?

Please list complete build info, including CR, and CCP if you have it.
What octane fuel are you using ?
If you know what altitude you are at that would be great too.

TIA,
Sonny

[whittlebeast]

I am ruuning fairy close to the recomendations of this document.  This is not even remotly close to the stock Harley map that knocked on a hot day like a can of marbles, even on 93 RON fuel.  My bike is a totally stock Sportster except for the TTS/Sert.

http://www.techbill.net/Harley/docs/Sportster_timing.doc

AW

[whittlebeast]

see http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/SparkAdvFrontGraph.jpg

I am running the map on the top.  I run about 28 degrees max timing in the entire center of the map.  The upper left section of my map to to get the main timing maps to play well with the closed throttle timing table.

On the bottom is the TTS Stage One map.

AW

[Sonny S.]

Going to ask for help here.

05, I pulled up your timing table with the DTT program, and I was trying to see if I could post it in full view.
I don't know how to do that...do you ?   Anyone ?
I was even trying to just copy and past the #'s without the 3D graph....not good at this.

Sonny

[FSG]

Going to ask for help here.

05, I pulled up your timing table with the DTT program, and I was trying to see if I could post it in full view.
I don't know how to do that...do you ?   Anyone ?
I was even trying to just copy and past the #'s without the 3D graph....not good at this.

Sonny

It's an ASCII File so either open in a Text Editor (Notepad see below) or Excel with {space} delimiters.

GRID 16 8
-1
500 1
0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
6.16 6.512 7.04 7.216 9.152 13.2 17.6 23.232
10.56 10.208 11.088 12.672 14.432 17.776 21.12 24.992
14.784 13.376 13.728 15.136 17.6 20.592 23.056 25.168
19.008 16.368 16.368 17.776 19.888 22.4 23.936 25.52
21 19.536 18.48 19.712 22 23.936 24.992 26.048
23 21 21.12 21.472 23.936 24.992 26.048 26.928
24 23 22.6 23.584 25.344 26.048 26.928 27.984
25 24 24.4 25.52 26.752 27.456 28.512 29.568
26 25 26 27 27.984 29.04 29.92 30.976
27 27 26.752 27.456 27.984 29.92 30.976 32.032
28.4 27.2 26.752 27.456 27.984 29.92 32.032 33.088
28.6 27.6 26.752 27.456 27.984 29.92 32.5 33.968
28.8 27.8 26.752 27.456 27.984 29.92 32.5 34
29 27.8 26.752 27.456 27.984 29.92 32.5 34
29 27.8 26.752 27.456 27.984 29.92 32.5 34
!Module Parameters
!InitialTiming:  0
!RearOffset:  0
!RPMLimit:  6500
!CrankRevs:  1
!FixedLimFlag: True
!SelEEPROMTblFlag: True
!FixedInitialTmgFlag: False
!VSSFreq:  1375
!TachEnableFlag: False
!Version: RACE

[FSG]

I remember someone did post it as it appears on the DTT PC link program on the old site once...but FSG can't do it I'm at a loss 

all my stuff is Carb, don't have the DTT as I don't need it.

[Sonny S.]

05,

What octane fuel was it tuned with ?

FSG... Thanks !!

Whittlebeast... great info..thanks !!

[Sonny S.]

05,

What was it you were looking for ?
This is a good thread, just not going to get as many hit's as  " what socks should I wear ? ".
Not many understand timing or have any idea where the timing is set for their bike...... hang in there.
I'll try to post something soon. Gotta get DTT info from my old PC switched over.

Sonny

[blackhillsken]

Here's some explanation of why higher timing numbers (in the right areas) help.  This is a carburated module example, but the same timing suggestions apply to injection.
More timing at idle (up to reasonable levels) will smooth out the idle and let the engine run cooler idling.  Very helpful when you're stuck in traffic.  That's one spot the available maps using the module dip switches fall short.  When you use the switches to come up with a map that doesn't ping and gives good wide open power, it is lazy and retarded at the low end.  That's where a custom map can help.  If you hook up a scanalyzer and look at the timing a big twin idles at with stock ignition, it's around 26-30 degrees (earlier Twin Cams, anyway).  No reason you can't do that with adjustable modules too.  It's not going to ping when it's idling.

I've seen late model injected bikes idling at 12 degrees on a canned tuner map.  What are these programmers thinking?  Must be for emission reasons.  Less timing = less emissions.  These motors are way happier idling at timing numbers in the 20s.

The other area that benefits from higher timing is when coasting down from higher rpm (where some motors will pop & backfire).  More timing there will usually lessen the popping in the exhaust.  Again, you're not going to ping when you're decelerating.  Carbed or injected both benefit.

When a tuner says "timing is maxed at 26 degrees wide open" he means that at the lowest manifold vacuum (when the throttle is wide open)  (see the bottom of the attached graph), the timing goes no higher than 26 degrees.

The "roll-on" throttle area is where most pinging issues occur.  It's sometimes helpful to drop the timing there to stop pinging when you roll into it (say around 60 mph in 5th gear to pass someone).

FSG,
DTT actually produced a carbed bike adjustable ignition module before they had their injection stuff.  I know because I tested one of the first units for Doug from Head Quarters.  They are still my favorite carbed bike ignition.





[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[Sonny S.]

Ken,

Thank you so much for chiming in....was hoping you would. 
I never fail to learn from your tuning methods..... that's why I'm still gonna bring you my dresser when I get it back together...lol.   

Sonny

[drhooligan]

Any PCIII timing tables for a 103" @ 10:1?  Thanks, I'd really like to see what other guys are doing with these. I've read some threads that suggest retarding the timing from stock when doing a BB upgrade.

[whittlebeast]

Ken

We appear to be running very similar timing.  For fun I will try your "more timing near idle" trick when I get a chance.

Here is my map at about the same angle and scale as yours.

http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/FrtTiming.jpg

Here is the stock timing map below.  This map was un-rideable on a hot day even on 93 octane.

http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/FrtTimingStock.jpg

AW

[Scramjet]

I've seen late model injected bikes idling at 12 degrees on a canned tuner map.  What are these programmers thinking?  Must be for emission reasons.  Less timing = less emissions.  These motors are way happier idling at timing numbers in the 20s.

Ken, I am trying to understand this comment above.  At the risk of sounding ignorant, how would less timing=less emissions?  I thought an earlier (more advanced) timing event would promote a more complete burn.  Therefore, more timing = less emmissions.

B

[ToBeFrank]

It's not going to ping when it's idling.

Again, you're not going to ping when you're decelerating.

How so? You can still start combustion too early at idle and decel with too much timing advance. I understand you can get away with more timing because it's not at load, but it seems to me you could still make it ping there with too much timing.

[ViennaHog]

Little fuel at idle or decel => very little pressure build up by the limited combustion=> no ping.

clear as mud?

[ToBeFrank]

Little fuel at idle or decel => very little pressure build up by the limited combustion=> no ping.

clear as mud?

Ok, so if we run 45* timing advance at idle, it won't ping?

[whittlebeast]

Frank

I was questioning the the 40 degrees of overrun timing a few weeks ago.  As a test, I went to 20 degrees of over-run timing and found that the bike felt a little better with the huge 40 degree timing.....  A little strange.  I concluded that the high pressure caused by the motor firing way before TDC resulted in some push back against the crank before TDC and that gave the motor plenty of time to burn the charge.  The catch in this is that the Sporty has a 1 ms min pulse pidth that I would think drive the mixture fat in over-run.  I have not bothered to mount the wideband as the bike rides just fine with the huge timing.

At idle, none of this logic applies.

AW

[blackhillsken]

Scramjet,
Less timing results in less hydrocarbon emissions.  True, less timing makes the engine sluggish and results in less gas mileage, but the emission police want low hydrocarbons, so less timing is the cure.  Back in the late 70s the car manufacturers started dropping timing at idle so the vehicles would pass the idle emissions testing.  Pre-smog cars used to have full vacuum advance in the distributor at idle, and they idled great, but emissions laws caused the engineers to move the higher timing (from vacuum) to off-idle so the idle emissions were lower.  You didn't get the benefit of vacuum-increased timing until you stepped on the gas.

Frank,
To "ping" you need some cylinder pressure.  Virtually no cylinder pressure during decel (coasting down closed throttle in any gear from, say, 3-4000 rpm.  Over advancing timing at idle will only result in the motor idling crappy.  You will have passed the sweet spot and the engine will be fighting itself, but not pinging (detonating) as they define it (spark knock).
"If we run 45 degrees timing advance" at idle (in a Harley), I don't know how it would run.  I've not gone above 30 as that's what I observed in an earlier (pre-emissions) stock timing map.

Frank

I was questioning the the 40 degrees of overrun timing a few weeks ago.  As a test, I went to 20 degrees of over-run timing and found that the bike felt a little better with the huge 40 degree timing.....  A little strange.  I concluded that the high pressure caused by the motor firing way before TDC resulted in some push back against the crank before TDC and that gave the motor plenty of time to burn the charge.  The catch in this is that the Sporty has a 1 ms min pulse pidth that I would think drive the mixture fat in over-run.  I have not bothered to mount the wideband as the bike rides just fine with the huge timing.

At idle, none of this logic applies.

AW,

No disrespect, but for me, that's over analyzing.  Just my opinion, so, like I said, no disrespect.

[GoFast.....]

Here's some explanation of why higher timing numbers (in the right areas) help.  This is a carburated module example, but the same timing suggestions apply to injection.
More timing at idle (up to reasonable levels) will smooth out the idle and let the engine run cooler idling.  Very helpful when you're stuck in traffic.  That's one spot the available maps using the module dip switches fall short.  When you use the switches to come up with a map that doesn't ping and gives good wide open power, it is lazy and retarded at the low end.  That's where a custom map can help.  If you hook up a scanalyzer and look at the timing a big twin idles at with stock ignition, it's around 26-30 degrees (earlier Twin Cams, anyway).  No reason you can't do that with adjustable modules too.  It's not going to ping when it's idling.

I've seen late model injected bikes idling at 12 degrees on a canned tuner map.  What are these programmers thinking?  Must be for emission reasons.  Less timing = less emissions.  These motors are way happier idling at timing numbers in the 20s.

The other area that benefits from higher timing is when coasting down from higher rpm (where some motors will pop & backfire).  More timing there will usually lessen the popping in the exhaust.  Again, you're not going to ping when you're decelerating.  Carbed or injected both benefit.

When a tuner says "timing is maxed at 26 degrees wide open" he means that at the lowest manifold vacuum (when the throttle is wide open)  (see the bottom of the attached graph), the timing goes no higher than 26 degrees.

The "roll-on" throttle area is where most pinging issues occur.  It's sometimes helpful to drop the timing there to stop pinging when you roll into it (say around 60 mph in 5th gear to pass someone).

FSG,
DTT actually produced a carbed bike adjustable ignition module before they had their injection stuff.  I know because I tested one of the first units for Doug from Head Quarters.  They are still my favorite carbed bike ignition.

you are right because I downloaded a map for my carb WT BUILD ON the DTT IGNITION

[Scramjet]

Scramjet,
Less timing results in less hydrocarbon emissions.  True, less timing makes the engine sluggish and results in less gas mileage, but the emission police want low hydrocarbons, so less timing is the cure.  Back in the late 70s the car manufacturers started dropping timing at idle so the vehicles would pass the idle emissions testing.  Pre-smog cars used to have full vacuum advance in the distributor at idle, and they idled great, but emissions laws caused the engineers to move the higher timing (from vacuum) to off-idle so the idle emissions were lower.  You didn't get the benefit of vacuum-increased timing until you stepped on the gas.

Ken, no disrespect intended but it still makes more common sense to me that an earlier (more advanced) spark event would reduce emissions not increase them.  An earlier spark event would promote more complete combustion before the exhaust valve opens as the ignition would occurr earlier.

B

[ToBeFrank]

To "ping" you need some cylinder pressure.  Virtually no cylinder pressure during decel (coasting down closed throttle in any gear from, say, 3-4000 rpm.  Over advancing timing at idle will only result in the motor idling crappy.  You will have passed the sweet spot and the engine will be fighting itself, but not pinging (detonating) as they define it (spark knock).

Got it. My confusion was in the definition of pinging, but I understand what you mean now.

[blackhillsken]

Scramjet,
I agree with you that it would seem a smoother, more powerful running motor should produce less emissions, but not always. I found some technical info on the late timing / reduced hydrocarbons thing from an MIT study.

http://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/30346/61134361.pdf?sequence=1

Look through pages 50-55.

[Scramjet]

Ken,

Thanks for the link to this thesis paper.  The article does support the statement that late spark timing reduces emissions.  If I am reading this article correctly the late ignition timing also appears to create other problems in that the HC emissions are reduced due to the charge being burned in the exhuast runner (but prior to the catalytic converter inlet) and in that the late timing event extracts less energy per charge (stroke).

Good stuff.

B 

[blackhillsken]

Ken,

Thanks for the link to this thesis paper.  The article does support the statement that late spark timing reduces emissions.  If I am reading this article correctly the late ignition timing also appears to create other problems in that the HC emissions are reduced due to the charge being burned in the exhuast runner (but prior to the catalytic converter inlet) and in that the late timing event extracts less energy per charge (stroke).

Good stuff.

B 

Right.  And, in my opinion, Harley's late timing is one of the reasons you might see pipes glow red near the head.  Usually, that problem goes away with a good tune.

[Scramjet]

Ken,

Thanks for the insight.  My 07 had the glowing pipes when new.  It was pretty much solved with a/c, intake, cam, exhaust and PCIII.  I will try some timing changes with the TTS based on this.

B

[ViennaHog]

I run my 103 Ultra 2008 (Woods TW6, a/c, slip ons) at 24 deg advance from 750 to 1250 RPM from 0-40 map. That pretty much covers elevated idle and it definitely reduces heat at idle. On if extremely hot during city riding I notice the occasional ping from off idle. And no glowing head pipes for sure.

[whittlebeast]

If anything the EFI bikes need a little less timing as the fuel is better "mixed" in the combustion chamber.

The timing tables are easy to change it you have a SERT or a thundermax.  On the PC3 you are only adding or subtracting from the stock "fuzzy logic" curves.

AW 

[axtell]

I agree with Ken...the car and truck engines pulled timing out to raise the temperature in the cat. to help clean up emmissions(NOX i think)  Ron

[Don D]

HD has done the same thing and the cat is the pipe in the late models. This cat in the pipe works fairly well and lowers the total emission number for the big three CO HC are very low but NOX is still high, but the OEM meets the total standard based on the total allowed. I do see one other effect of too much timing at low speed, just for the putters that like to run at 1000-2000 rpm at light load the motor can hunt if the timing is too far advanced.

[whittlebeast]

OK...  How do you explain the differance in logic between these four timing maps.  These bikes do not have Cats.

Top Left, Stock Harley 1200 _____Top Right, Typical Motor/My Map

Bottom Left, SERT Stage One____Bottom Right, SERT Stage Two

[FLTRI]

Upper right = looks like a well developed ignition map.
Upper right = looks like a large, general swipe at timing by basically removing all the agressive timing, possibly due to high compression.
Lower left = looks like the engineer who wrote the map forgot to set timing for low MAP, upper rpms. LOL! (not too important)
Lower right = looks like a map for a high torque, high CCP engine.

And the survey says?

[TXChop]

Ken, that makes great sence, thanks! Now, just a question about starting a high compression motor. Can you adjust cranking timing? And do you still offer custom maps?

[whittlebeast]

TXCHOP

I have not actually tested this but it appears that the bottom right corner of the timing map controls the cranking timing.  See the blue area in the graphs above.  I can tell you that the data logs are showing 0 degrees timing durring cranking on my Sporty.  I could test this one if needed.

My Sporty cranks at 450 RPM at 95 KPA on a 99.8 KPA day.  I wonder if the high altitude bikes crank with more timing?

AW

[Don D]

Ken,

Thanks for the link to this thesis paper.  The article does support the statement that late spark timing reduces emissions.  If I am reading this article correctly the late ignition timing also appears to create other problems in that the HC emissions are reduced due to the charge being burned in the exhuast runner (but prior to the catalytic converter inlet) and in that the late timing event extracts less energy per charge (stroke).

Good stuff.

B 

Bingo you have just very perfectly and simply described the HD OEM emission reduction scheme. That with the new 06 up head casting with a big slow exhaust port and you have a recipe for low emissions and no need for a Cat. Save money...good for shareholders. Energy per stroke, performance, just a byproduct of the added cu inches up to 96" now up from 88" and the only emission value  not kept in check is NOX but the total allowable value is well under the limit for totals when Co and HC are added. And we all thought the new heads were a performance upgrade. Not the OEMs goal.

[hi$toy]

with all this valuable knowledge being passed hereI have one question---Does anyone know of a goodtuner for the DTT ignition that could program one of these maps to a Carbed 95 " WT-26 build ? Ilive in Fayetteville NC and no one seems to know how to program these maps-Go Fast was kind enough to send me his map as our builds were very similar, the closest dealer to me that I would trust is Ray Price Harley and they have told me they " as other dealers mostly use the Screaming Eagle module and have very little expierence with the DTT modules---suggestions anyone?

[FLTRI]

"suggestions anyone?"
Yes, Gofast probably has a perfectly good timing map. As you said your build is similar.
That said, let me shed a little light on why you are having a difficult time getting responses to your request:
Timing maps are the most difficult mapping of all due to the tuner not having very good ways to quantify part throttle power increases/decreases and how they will be affected with real-world loading (detonation, ping). The best way to adjust ignition timing is based on combustion pressure which takes special sensors, and data acquisition system (at least 1500 sample per sec) that cost big bucks, especially the sensors.
Most all combustion pressure sensors require drilling and installing them into the actual combustion chamber. They so make a special "sparkplug" that also incorporates a pressure sensor, but expensive and wear don't last very long.

The engine mfrs have these systems and spend a ton of hours tuning timing maps based on actual events and through their engineering capabilities can get the maps pretty good.

Does this mean they get it right everytime? Heck no, but they can get it right more times than get it wrong, which is better than us tuners with our simple Eddy Brake inertia dynos equipped with speed and engine rpm sensors.

I am fortunate to have a pretty nice D/A system (CDS) on my dyno (I used to sell them) but it is nowhere near fast enough to capture combustion pressure events when the engine is above 3000 rpms.

Another point: The time it takes instrument the vehicle to use effectively it makes it difficult to use it on an everyday basis to tune customer's everyday street bike. We can only justify to use it for R&D to measure EGTs, Strain gauging, Temps (other than engine) and to incluse the engine sensors from the data stream from the ECM and then be able to go back and replay the events to look for ways to improve systems and/or diagnose problems that do not show up on the std HP/Tq graphs.

What you got from GoFast is probably an existing base map that he spent some/considerable time to make changes, mostly to WOT, then either dynoed the changes and/or rode it on the street to make sure it didn't detonate, but that is just conjecture on my part.

[-SeabrookTrickBagger]

Interested in sharing your timing table or ignition module settings?

Please list complete build info, including CR, and CCP if you have it.
What octane fuel are you using ?
If you know what altitude you are at that would be great too.
Try to post in a way that is easily viewed, and no special software needed.

TIA,
Sonny

DTT TCFI II:   Do you want graphs or just the organized numbers in text format?  I have not tried to use attachments yet, so we shall see if I can.  Do you want just the ignition advance data or alpha n data too?

[Scramjet]

I hope this does not infringe on TTS.  If so I will remove it immediately.


A timing comparison.

   TTS MasterTune PS176 - big bore SE255                              
   MAP                              
RPM   15   20   30   40   50   60   70   80   90   95   100
750   17   17   17   17   17   10.5   6   -3   -4   -4   -4
1000   17   17   17   17   17   11   7   -1   -2   -4   -4
1125   17   17   17   17   17   12   8   0   -1   -4   -4
1250   17   17   17   17   17   13   10   2   1   0   0
1500   17   17   17   17   17   16   12   6   4   1   1
1750   17   17   17   17   17   17   14   10   5   2   2
2000   20   20   20   20   20   20   16   13   8   5   5
2250   29   29   29   29   29   24   19   17   12   9   9
2500   38   38   42   42   38   32   22   18   15   12   12
2750   43   43   43   43   42   38   26   22   18   13   13
3000   45   45   45   44   43   40   30   25   19   15   15
3500   45   45   45   44   43   41   31   27   22   17   17
4000   45   45   45   45   44   42   37   29   24   20   20
4500   45   45   45   45   45   43   39   30   26   22   22
5000   45   45   45   45   45   44   39   31   27   23   23
5500   45   45   45   45   45   44   39   31   28   26   26
6000   45   45   45   45   45   44   39   30   29   27   27
                                 
   TTS MasterTune NI176 - big bore SE 257 heads intake                              
   MAP                              
RPM   15   20   30   40   50   60   70   80   90   95   100
750   22   22   22   19   14   7   3   2   2   2   2
1000   22   22   22   20   15   8   4   3   3   3   3
1250   23   23   23   21   17   10   7   5   5   5   5
1500   25   25   25   22   18   12   9   7   7   7   7
1750   28   28   28   25   20   15   11   10   9   9   9
2000   32   32   31   26   22   18   14   13   12   12   12
2250   36   36   32   27   23   20   16   15   15   15   15
2500   38   38   33   28   24   21   19   18   18   18   18
2750   38   38   34   29   26   23   20   19   19   19   19
3000   38   38   36   31   27   24   21   19   19   19   19
3500   38   38   37   33   29   25   22   20   19   19   19
4000   38   38   36   33   29   26   23   20   19   19   19
4500   38   38   36   33   29   26   23   21   20   20   20
5000   38   38   36   34   30   26   23   21   20   20   20
5500   38   38   36   34   30   26   24   22   21   21   21
6000   38   38   36   35   30   26   24   22   21   21   21
7000   38   38   36   35   31   26   25   23   22   22   22

                                 
Difference   MAP                              
RPM   15   20   30   40   50   60   70   80   90   95   100
0   -5   -5   -5   -2   3   3.5   3   -5   -6   -6   -6
0   -5   -5   -5   -3   2   2.5   3   -4   -5   -7   -7
-125   -6   -6   -6   -4   0   1.5   1   -5   -6   -9   -9
-250   -8   -8   -8   -5   -1   1   1   -5   -6   -7   -7
-250   -11   -11   -11   -8   -3   1   1   -4   -5   -8   -8
-250   -15   -15   -14   -9   -5   -1   0   -3   -7   -10   -10
-250   -16   -16   -12   -7   -3   0   0   -2   -7   -10   -10
-250   -9   -9   -4   1   5   3   0   -1   -6.5   -9   -9
-250   0   0   8   13   12   9   2   -1   -4   -7.5   -7.5
-250   5   5   7   12   15   14   5   3   -1.5   -6   -6
-500   7   7   8   11   14   14.5   8   4.5   0   -4   -4
-500   7   7   9   11   14   15   8   7   2.5   -2   -2
-500   7   7   9   12   15   16   14   8   4   0   0
-500   7   7   9   11   15   17   16   9   6   2   2
-500   7   7   9   11   15   18   15   9   6   2   2
-500   7   7   9   10   15   18   15   9   7   5   5
-1000   7   7   9   10   14   18   14   7   7   5   5

[FLTRI]

Interesting to note the more agressive/advanced ignition timing is in what I would consider mid-high rpm/M.A.P. (load) for the cam with the higher CCP and least overlap, SE255.
I would have assumed it would be the opposite, but that may be why owners have complained of pinging/detonation with their as deliver/installed SE103 bikes or builds w/SE255s.

[Scramjet]

Interesting to note the more agressive/advanced ignition timing is in what I would consider mid-high rpm/M.A.P. (load) for the cam with the higher CCP and least overlap, SE255.
I would have assumed it would be the opposite, but that may be why owners have complained of pinging/detonation with their as deliver/installed SE103 bikes or builds w/SE255s.

That is what I was thinking and what got me started on this comparison in Excel.  Especially in the 60-70 MAP and 2,000-3,000 RPM areas where most "roll-ons" start.  I would sure like to hear further thoughts/comments on this.  I certainly would have expected more timing on the higher overlap/later closing cam set-up.

B

[pikeslayer]

More timing at idle (up to reasonable levels) will smooth out the idle and let the engine run cooler idling.

I would think more advance (combustion begins sooner) would mean that more of the combustion would take place in the combustion chamber, therefore raising engine temperatures.  Less advance would leave some of the combustion to take place in the exhaust, therefore lowering engine temp.

Where am I going wrong?

[pikeslayer]

Anyone there?               

[ederdelyi]

If you were monitoring EGT's (Exhaust Gas Temp) you would see that at some point the retarded ignition setting will raise the EGT's.The reason EGT's often go up when running retarded ignition is because the mixture is still burning when the exhaust valves open up. By advancing the ignition, you give the mixture more time to complete its burn. This leads to lower EGT's and a cooler running motor.

In an emissions motor with cats it's a balancing act with the timing and AFR to make the cats work and meet emissions. When we circumvent all the emissions requirements and shoot for maximum performance the AFR and timing tables will be way different than anything you will see in an OEM map

[Sonny S.]

 >>>Less advance would leave some of the combustion to take place in the exhaust, therefore lowering engine temp.<<<

Combustion taking place in the exaust would mean a " slow burn " and that actually creates heat. I have seen pipes turn blue right in front of me due to someone retarding the timing too much at idle. ( was on an EVO )

[Sonny S.]

Ed, you posted while I was typing......slooow   

[ederdelyi]

No prob, buddy. Just had to get away from that CF going on the TC forum for awhile :>)

[Scramjet]

Bear in mind that late timing at idle may increase exhaust temp while decreasing engine temp.  The article posted earlier in this thread suggested that late timing could actually reduce emissions.  Yup, a balancing act.

B

[ederdelyi]

Yes, it can go both ways ... there is usually a definite "hinge" point . EGT and CHT can be real interesting to watch as they interact.

[FLTRI]

Yes, it can go both ways ... there is usually a definite "hinge" point . EGT and CHT can be real interesting to watch as they interact. My onboard DA setup has been invaluable in understanding what the motor is really doing under real world conditions. No 25k wheel dyno can deliver that kind of data. Not slamming them, they do a good job for what they are.

Ed,
What D/A system do you use?
Bob

[ToBeFrank]

Bob,
It's a "Heinz 57". Total homebrew cobbeled together from bits and pieces.
Normal data channels:
G -force(s)
Wheel speed
Engine RPM
CHT X 2
EGT x 2
AFR x 2 (NTK wide band)
AFR x 2 (narrow band)
MAP
TPS

4 additional analog inputs that can be used for other data.

A "redneck" engineering special, did it as a spare time/fun project a long time ago and have used it for many different applications. I wrote all the software for it as well.

What controller are you using for the widebands?

[fuzznut5197]

Wow, that's some system! I would have no clue what to do with all that data 

[crazycalvin]

>>What controller are you using for the widebands?<<

Homebrew/web DIY controller that was originally designed for the 2 cell NTK sensors used on the lean burn Honda Civics. It's been re-designed a couple of times since the first iteration.
Thinking about doing something else using some of the commercial controllers that are now readily available ... but I don't want one that uses the common "inexpensive" Bosch wideband sensor.

Not trying to jack this thread, if anyone objects I will remove my posts regarding the DA stuff.

Ed, No objection here!  I would enjoy reading more on how you did your DA stuff and enjoy reading and seeing how others did/do it also.  I personally think we should have a sticky in the AFR/Tuning Zone for the DIY DA "stuff".  Later, Calvin.

[Sonny S.]

I have no objection of it being in this thread but if there is going to be a lot of info posted it would make a great thread on it's own.

" Data Acquisition " or something

[ederdelyi]

Moved my DA related posts to the "DA" thread. Others may do as they please.

[05FLHTC]

Some DTT Map INFO copied from SE ignition post in Twin Cam section
http://harleytechtalk.net/htt/index.php?topic=8500.20

The timing curves on the DTT module along with the directions state & infer you to believe that there is a deceleration timing curve that you can adjust that is different from cruise timing curve, well that’s NOT TRUE. Before you throw me under the buss with all you who have no issues with ping, have you ever really dumped the data to determine where that module is setting your timing at while cruising down the road?

I researched my DTT & dumped many sets of real time data from my bike along with some data from other owners DTT modules on their bikes. I also made many calls around the states to some big name performance shops and called that arrogant Chris that wrote the Crane & DTT software program, they are one in the same, crane & DTT ignition modules, what a piece a work Chris is.  

My findings…very few folks have ever dumped the actual DTT data, so it’s no surprise that you may not be able to tune the ping out with the DTT, I’m surprised anyone has been able to do so if your CR is more then 10 to 1 using & following the directions from DTT.  The maps are NO where near what they imply when you dump the data & compare the actual manifold MAP pressure to the DTT map.  "Potty mouth" you can’t even adjust that dam DTT map where you really need to…  

05

[05FLHTC]

More DTT map info copied from SE ignition post in Twin Cam section
http://harleytechtalk.net/htt/index.php?topic=8500.20

The very top row here in this pic would suggest the DTT map has a decel timing curve, both by reading the grab DTT instructions & by looking at this attached map.

However after dumping actual data as I stated above, your actual cruise manifold pressure & timing is set by the numbers in the very top row of the map, not at all what you would be led to believe. That MAP pressure min in the DTT starts at 16HG, typical cruise manifold pressure is about 12HG. Again like I stated, you can't even adjust the dam DTT map in that range. All of the canned settings will place your cruise timing way higher then my motor wanted/needed when running down the road at 65mph. Fine and dandy if your running near stock compression but not worth a fart if your at 10.5CR or more.

Regardless of the manifold pressure scaling that is used, the actual timing number can easily be verified by dumping the log data from the DTT module using the cables & software.   

I would like to thank the forum members here, you know who you are, that suggested to me to utilize the software dumps back a couple years ago when I first started adjusting my timing map in my 10.7CR bagger. Without that suggestion & software capability, my motor would still be running hotter then a fricken fire cracker & pinging it's arse off while at light cruise. Many thanks to you

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[05FLHTC]

Copied from SE ignition post in Twin Cam section
http://harleytechtalk.net/htt/index.php?topic=8500.20

Please be patient with me.  I have a DTT with 10.7:1 cr and I got a custom map from ejk dyna that works great on my build.  No pinging.  But this is really interesting to me since i am planning a 117 with 11.5:1 cr.

So the DTT curve starts at 16 in hg which I assumed was barely opening the throttle.  But you have found that cruise is actually well below that. I always wondered what the DTT did from 16 down to zero.  Are you saying that the timing from 16 down to zero is the same as the value in the first row of the table?

Thanks,

Sean

Yes that is correct, the cruise timing is the number in the top first row of the table. So like with mine, a majority of the custom maps I obtained had my motor timing advanced when cruising at 70mph into the high 30's or some maps even 40 degrees advance, that was way to much advance for mine, had my arse & oil temp running hot enough to cook the family jewels.   

Edit addition, attached here is my current DTT map that I'm running in my 103" bagger, Tman625 cams, 3.37 final, V&H Propipe with a S&S G carb. 207CCP & 10.7CR


[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[Sonny S.]

Good info 05 

Us DTT guys are left in the dark 

[Sonny S.]

Here are the 4 ignition maps from the SE Adjustable Ignition that I have converted to DTT.
You will have to have the DTT software to open these.
You can download it here http://www.daytona-twintec.com/tech_download.html
Attached is also the SE instruction manual as a reference for the curve recommendations.


[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[05FLHTC]

Your the best, Thanks! Sure will be nice to compare some...

Holy sheep chit Sonny wow no way I can run that much timing at cruise...maybe I'll get brave & give it one more try someday if I get bored Sure would be nice if I could program my DTT table down to 12HG map...

The DTT module can be re-programed for an optional EX extended table software version, that would allow us additional lower map parameters into the standard race table. Right now mine runs to good to fudge with it.

[Sonny S.]

Thanks 05 

The DTT will only go to 45* max, where as the SE uses up to 50*. I don't see where we would need 50* timing in those columns so I put 45*...shouldn't matter though.

[Sonny S.]

Your the best, Thanks! Sure will be nice to compare some...

Holy sheep chit Sonny wow no way I can run that much timing at cruise...maybe I'll get brave & try it again 

Pretty interesting huh ?

[05FLHTC]

Pretty interesting huh ?

Sure is...it's hard for me to fathom is being accomplished with all that timing???

[Sonny S.]

Pretty interesting huh ?

Sure is...it's hard for me to fathom is being accomplished with all that timing???

Ken goes over that starting in post #8

[Sonny S.]

Something I find interesting...
Curve # 2 of the SE module is about equal to a 5 & 0 switch setting on the DTT ...hmmmm

[Sonny S.]

Something I found interesting when reading about this ignition system

http://www.amm.haan.de/P3/PDF/p3_manual.pdf

Rules of Thumb:
The louder the exhaust, the lower the max. advance should be. If exhaust is silent, you can have more advance.


The green knob sets the max. advance:
0 -> 26,0° for open pipes,very high comp., turbo
1 -> 30,0° for open pipes, high compression
2 -> 34,0° for stock or supertrapp-style exhaust
3 -> 38,0° for lightweight bikes with stock or supertr. exh.

The yellow knob adjusts the rise of the curve.
0 -> very slow rise -> for turbo or very high compression
1 -> slow rise -> for open pipes and heavy bike touring
2 -> medium rise -> for sport exhaust, supertr. style
3 -> fast rise -> for racing applications only

[kdietz]

Is it safe to say that you can advance timing until you hear pinging or register spark knock with Twin Scan II+?

I can easily get spark knock to register at High load areas of Roll On and WOT and make corrections to eliminate, but I'm not getting any spark knock activity in the 30-50 kPa low load areas. Should I keep advancing timing in the low load areas as long as I'm not getting spark knock or is there a practical point to stop.

I can set timing in the low 40's at 30-60 kPa.....2000 to 3000 rpms with no spark activity and smooth running....OK?

[hotroadking]

Wondering if some of the idle problems the 103 Iv'e worked on may be timing related.

[05FLHTC]

How much timing are you running at idle King?

[kansasroadking]

Your the best, Thanks! Sure will be nice to compare some...

Holy sheep chit Sonny wow no way I can run that much timing at cruise...maybe I'll get brave & give it one more try someday if I get bored Sure would be nice if I could program my DTT table down to 12HG map...

The DTT module can be re-programed for an optional EX extended table software version, that would allow us additional lower map parameters into the standard race table. Right now mine runs to good to fudge with it.

I tried to load an ex table into the race version (tc88a) module, it did not accept the upload  

[05FLHTC]

You are correct, the EX version requires a software upgrade to use. You can contact Daytona Twin Tech, I think Sonny has done that & they will reflash your module to except the EX table. Why on Gods green earth it does not come that way to begin with who knows???

If ya call down & talk to (Chris tech line at DTT) be sure to take a couple of big gulps of whiskey first, your gonna need it. If you look up arrogant in the Webster dictionary you will see a pic of Chris   

[mayor]

How much timing are you running at idle King?

how much is an acceptable level of timing at idle?  is there a range to shoot for (high/low)?  I can't really control that on my SE adjustable (carb) ignition, but I was worried that I might be running too high of idle advance if I advance a lazier curve to bring my WOT where I'm at now (to limit timing in my roll on areas).   

[05FLHTC]

Here is what I have determined with my idle timing, this on my 2005 EG classic running 103 at 10.8 CR/CCP 208, S&S G carb, Tman 625 cams & SE performance heads worked over & grooved by WFO Larry 

I have run my idle timing as low as 15 degrees & determined my idle quality to be poor, more erratic/rough & seemed hot by feel of my arse.

I'm currenlty running 24 degrees idle timing, when comparing this to 15 degrees my idle seems smoother, runs cooler by feel & just seems to be more stable, happier in general.

Wish I had some scientific data as support these findings to offer here, but I only have trial & error to share. As a matter of fact I wish there was some scientific data anywhere for us to apply with timing in general

[FLTRI]

As a matter of fact I wish there was some scientific data anywhere for us to apply with timing in general

There is. The problem is the equipment necessary to measure timing and how it affects combustion is out of range for most budgets.
Measuring combustion pressure is the best and IMO, the only way to be sure of best timing for each and every tunable cell available to us.
Fortunately we have a plethora of timing maps available to try to see which "feel" the best.
I've spent hours and hours on the dyno trying to quantify timing changes (other than WOT) and have come to the conclusion there is no way to be precise without measuring combustion pressure, not to mention how inlet temp affects combustion temps and how that affects timing strategy.
Wish there was a good, effective, and economical way to absolutely quantify timing and assure no detonation when temps rise, but AKAIK there isn't.
Bob

[hotroadking]

I am going to check the map tonight we had not messed with timing on the tune.

But it's going to be worth a look.

[Sonny S.]

Bob,

Your post explains why it seems difficult to get hard facts when it comes to timing.
Sometimes it's frustrating for us guys that don't have access to a dyno or knowledgable tuner. We really are in the dark about this and the trial and error of playing with timing doing street runs is down right frustrating, and very time consuming.
I'll tell ya what, my hat is off to the guys that really know this stuff 

[mayor]

Bob,

Your post explains why it seems difficult to get hard facts when it comes to timing.
Sometimes it's frustrating for us guys that don't have access to a dyno or knowledgable tuner. We really are in the dark about this and the trial and error of playing with timing doing street runs is down right frustrating, and very time consuming.
I'll tell ya what, my hat is off to the guys that really know this stuff 

I'll second all of this   

[05FLHTC]

It was my hope we would gain some actual real experiences from this post.

Many of us will never have expensive exotic equipment, so the best we can ever have is shared knowledge as a compromise.  I realize it’s not scientific but it’s the best we can hope for.

It would be great if we could get more maps & build details posted & just sharing of experiences in general with any timing trials...

Not Scientific again but it's better then nuttin!

TIA,
05

[Sonny S.]

right on 

[05FLHTC]

Fortunately we have a plethora of timing maps available to try to see which "feel" the best.

Bob

It sure would be NICE if "WE" could share some of these...

[HD/Wrench]

TXCHOP

I have not actually tested this but it appears that the bottom right corner of the timing map controls the cranking timing.  See the blue area in the graphs above.  I can tell you that the data logs are showing 0 degrees timing durring cranking on my Sporty.  I could test this one if needed.

My Sporty cranks at 450 RPM at 95 KPA on a 99.8 KPA day.  I wonder if the high altitude bikes crank with more timing?

AW

If I use the TTS I dont have to mess with the timing map as you have a table for ign timing under cranking. However if it is a SERT style map then yes I have to check my map sensor under data log and take that into acount. But with higher elevation you loose cylinder pressure so it does not work against you as bad at lower elevation= higher cranking pressures.  Your KPA tells me you are at or very near sea level.

[05FLHTC]

Cranking timing and the areas of the DTT map is my next hurdle...anyone here got any feedback?

Just getting ready to start gathering some info with the DTT log file software 

[HD/Wrench]

Find where the bike is running for map load when cranking and adjust timing there

[george248]

OK, so with the DTT race version you can only adjust timing down to 16in-hg?   maybe I should have bought the ex version?  I wonder WTF the timing looks like at 10-16 IN-HG?   does it change in this area when changing the initial and advance slope?  how would you know how any changes are affecting this area of timing?



my head hurts... think I'll grab another beer...

[Sonny S.]

Have one for me     

You can send your Race version to DTT and have it flashed to " EX " version for $25. I'm going to send 2 in myself...hmm, I need to do that..... tomorrow   

[george248]

sippin on beer #2 

so the race version offers less adjustability than the street legal version?  that makes perfect sense

just finished checking out the 4 different SE timing curves...hmmm... had me wondering if trying to compare the SE curve to a TC88a curve is apples to oranges?


here is the SE manifold vacuum ranges:             compared with DTT:

IDLE                                                            IDLE  16In-Hg
12 In-hg                                                      18 In-Hg
10  "                                                           20   "
8   "                                                            22   "
6"  "                                                            24   "
4   "                                                            26   "
2   "                                                            28   "
WOT                                                           WOT  30 In-Hg


Why are the vacuum manifold figures backasswards for the DTT?

anyone smarter than me have any thoughts 




think I will send my DTT in for the ex reflash... say, around Dec or Jan  
                                                                                                                     

[05FLHTC]

Find where the bike is running for map load when cranking and adjust timing there

Yepper that's the plan

Welcome to our nightmare George    LOL!

[larluvssandra]

Flashed to "EX"?  Does this apply to the DTT TC-88?  I'm running a 3 adv. & 2 slope.  Just want to add some timing at idle.  Thanks, Larry

[Sonny S.]

Flashed to "EX"?  Does this apply to the DTT TC-88?  I'm running a 3 adv. & 2 slope.  Just want to add some timing at idle.  Thanks, Larry

yes, you can change the TC88 ( now called race ) to the EX... street.

[larluvssandra]

Is the EX flash worth the time and trouble? 95ci,se perf heads,se forged pistons,woods rebel carb,lsr 2/1 exhaust,andrews 55g cams, 99fxdx..........    Thanks, Larry

[Sonny S.]

Is the EX flash worth the time and trouble? 95ci,se perf heads,se forged pistons,woods rebel carb,lsr 2/1 exhaust,andrews 55g cams, 99fxdx..........    Thanks, Larry

I really don't know. I guess that depends if you are having issues in areas that are not ajustable with your current ignition.
I'm doing it because $25 sure beats the heck outta buying a new module, and this way I have the " option " to adjust timing in the 10-14 in-hg ranges.

[05FLHTC]

Is the EX flash worth the time and trouble? 95ci,se perf heads,se forged pistons,woods rebel carb,lsr 2/1 exhaust,andrews 55g cams, 99fxdx..........    Thanks, Larry

I really don't know. I guess that depends if you are having issues in areas that are not ajustable with your current ignition.
I'm doing it because $25 sure beats the heck outta buying a new module, and this way I have the " option " to adjust timing in the 10-14 in-hg ranges.

Being that Chris has desided he can treat his customers like "Potty mouth", I'm seriously considering the SE race tuner for mine. I have difficulty supporting products & figuring out fixes for short comings for a JACKOFF that would be you Chris!

[Sonny S.]

 >>>I have difficulty supporting products & figuring out fixes for short comings for a <<<

Well buddy, you better sell that Harley then       

[Krusty]

>>>I have difficulty supporting products & figuring out fixes for short comings for a <<<

Well buddy, you better sell that Harley then       

Ain't that the truth!

But seriously, stay away from the SE Race tuner and do yourself a favor and go with the TTS Mastertune. You'll be glad you did.

[05FLHTC]

But seriously, stay away from the SE Race tuner and do yourself a favor and go with the TTS Mastertune. You'll be glad you did.

Krusty thanks but mine is carbed, the DTT & Crane modules are virtually the same units for us with carbs to adjust our timing...the SE race tuner is another ignition module for adjusting timing maps on a carbed bike.

Are there any other modules out there for us dinosaurs running a carbed 2005 HD

[Sonny S.]

Heck 05, now that you got the DTT figured out, might as well roll with it...it's paid for.
You could try the S&S IST. Even has knock detection and timing retard.

I don't like the way things are done at DTT either...but..... The MOCO pulls the same chit....and here we are.
I could never own a Honda though.... I'd be bored not working on something....lol 

[george248]

I am going to try to condense my recent DTT tuning experiences in this thread, in hopes that it may be of value to someone in the future.

Just completed a winter build on my 04 FXD:

Dewey's street heads 80cc chambers
95" SE flat tops .005 O/S with valve reliefs opened up
Andrews 37N conversion cams
stock carb rejetted
Cycle Shack slip ons

The bike runs great, but with the warmer weather 80-90 degrees I started getting a pretty persistent pinging in only one area.   My problem area was 2500-3000rpm in 4th and 5th gear and light throttle.  Everywhere else was fine.  Jetting was 46 slow, N65C(Sportster needle) and 195 main.  Tried 45, 46 and 48 slow jets, and 195 and 200 main jets but could not get rid of the ping.  I tried the NOKK needle and improved slightly but the pinging was still there.

I bought the DTT TC88A and tried just about every combination of initial and advance slope possible.  No matter how I adjusted the dials, I could not completely eliminate the pinging.  Not to mention the bike was a complete dog with all the timing pulled out.

I decided to order the cable and software and see if I could figure out what was going on.  By this time I was really beginning to get frustrated.  I was considering different cams (Woods 6, Andrews 44 etc.)  at 9.85:1 corrected the 37 cams should work fine with proper tuning?

This thread, as well as another caught my eye:  http://harleytechtalk.net/htt/index.php?topic=8500.0

Sonny S. and 05FLHTC were a lot of help in the above thread 

The instructions for the DTT are misleading to say the least.  The instructions say "Note that 16In-Hg corresponds to a high vacuum deceleration or idle condition".   This is simply not true.  05FLHTC clued me in to this and I verified it by dumping my log data and taking a close look for myself. 

I had been trying to pull timing in the 2500-3000 rpm range at the 18-22hg area thinking this was my light throttle cruise area.  This had no effect on my pinging.  The 12-16 In-Hg area is where I should have been focusing my attention, as the log data shows this is truly the cruise and light throttle area. 

Even setting the dials on the DTT to 0 initial and 0 advance gives you 36 and 37 degrees of timing at 2500 and 3000rpm.  When you get into 3,4 or 4,5 settings and higher the timing jumps to 40-45 degrees advance at 16In-Hg.


Here is the map I am using right now, which is 05FLHTC's custom map with 20% added across the board.  Seems to be working great for now and I think the bike can even use a little more timing in some areas without problems.  For now I am just happy to have my power back without the dreaded pinging.






[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[redmtrckl]

DTT map from my 11:1 compression 114" motor running RedShift 647's.
This was developed from the baseline map I got from  Head-Quarters some years back.
I also used this same exact map on the 11.65:1 95" WT build prior to the 114".
Worked fine on the last two builds and I couldn't make them ping.
Could it have been better? Who Knows?
I'll be using it on the 107 being done right now.

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[05FLHTC]

Thanks for sharing the maps & build details, if we can get more of em posted we all really would benefit from seeing the differences 

Maybe someone could help me better understand what the exact purpose & general use/effect of the DTT initial timing setting provides that is located in "edit module parameters tab". I'm not certain I understand what exactly it provides...I have read the directions countless times & still not sure I get it?

TIA,
05

[Doc 1]

Thanks for sharing the maps & build details, if we can get more of em posted we all really would benefit from seeing the differences 

Maybe someone could help me better understand what the exact purpose & general use/effect of the DTT initial timing setting provides that is located in "edit module parameters tab". I'm not certain I understand what exactly it provides...I have read the directions countless times & still not sure I get it?

TIA,
05

List the name of the trim pots (switches) you have and the setting DTT tells you to use.....I can help you wit that.
Doc

[Sonny S.]

By using the fixed initial timing setting you make the initial trim pot inoperative.
Better to set the trim pot at 5 on the module. Then if you need to retard timing while on the road you can do so by using the initial trim pot switch. Each click moves the whole table up or down 1*.
Also makes it easy on a test ride to see what more or less timing accross the board will do.

[05FLHTC]

Just to assure we are communicating...setting the initial timing to say #-2 is the same as leaving it at zero and setting the dial to 3?  I guess I'm still trying to understand what benefit it provides and where & when you would use it for what purpose? Is it just to lock out the dial? Or does it alter the initial timing in some way other then the dial can apply? How exactly does it change the table when using this feature instead of using the dial?

Does it only apply the offset to some portion of the table that the dial can not effect???

Sorry but I still don't get  it's intended use is for other then locking out the dial

Edit:

Please don't take my line of questioning negatively; I'm not in anyway suggesting that any of the answers provided are not correct.

My questions are based on the hard learning’s that I struggled through to get the small understanding I have currently with this DTT software and I might add that's not very much.

I have very little if any respect at all for Chris that wrote this software program as you might be able to tell by reading my postings...

I write software on occasion myself at work and if I could not document and provide directions any better then Chris, I would seriously consider another way to make a living 

[ejk_dyna]

<<Just to assure we are communicating...setting the initial timing to say #-2 is the same as leaving it at zero and setting the dial to 3?>>

yes

<<I guess I'm still trying to understand what benefit it provides and where & when you would use it for what purpose?>>

by using a fixed initial timing = 0 with a custom curve you are "locking out" the rider from messing with the curve using the dials.  a builder with a custom curve and a customer who is not that sharp with ignition stuff might want to do this.

similar to above the builder might have a good curve for a 11:1 tw6hg build and may go +2 initial on a 10:1 tw6hg build with that curve.

[05FLHTC]

Thanks

[05FLHTC]

Just purchased the SERT from the swap meet, now we'll get some ideas about how these compare...

[FLTRI]

Just purchased the SERT from the swap meet, now we'll get some ideas about how these compare...

Is the tuner still sealed? If it is then no problem.
Hopefully it hasn't been locked to another bike.

[05FLHTC]

No it's sealed I asked, thanks Bob

[05FLHTC]

The SERT module is on and loaded up with -15 degree table, tomorrow we'll run it & see. Sure is a huge difference in where the module table starts & finishes with regards to the MAP. I've got very high expectations after looking at both programs that this SE SERT is going to give me the MAP range needed between idle, decel cruise & WOT 

I'll keep Ya's posted... 

[HVYMTL6]

By using the fixed initial timing setting you make the initial trim pot inoperative.
Better to set the trim pot at 5 on the module. Then if you need to retard timing while on the road you can do so by using the initial trim pot switch. Each click moves the whole table up or down 1*.
Also makes it easy on a test ride to see what more or less timing accross the board will do.

So let me see if i understand this correctly, what you are saying is that if i set my trim pot to 5 and set my initial timing to -5 it would be the same as it is now set at zero but would allow me to adjust my timing map by the trim pot + or - 5 degrees while on the road?

[Sonny S.]

They suggest setting the trim post at 5 with a custom MAP.
On your " edit module parameters " leave " fixed initial " unchecked. Then if needed you can adjust the trim pot to 0 which is -5* or 9 which is +4* on your entire table.

05,
Looking forward to your findings. I hope you like the DTT better....lol

[05FLHTC]

Well just got done with my first day playin with the new SERT. Here is my initial feedback...

Had a few hard starts today? Let me clerify, crank & crank & then one time had a big boom out the exhaust??? Came home hooked the PC adjusted the zero column that was all zeros to a couple zero at max map pressure followed by some small numbers on up to like 10 degrees. Cranked the motor with it the PC hooked up fired right up??? So there is that issue going on, not feeling real confident about any of that yet.

What I am liking is pulling live data from the ECM with it running at idle, the timing map is already applying the number three rows into the map at like 45ish KPA, I'm liking that a whole lot. Map pressure starts at 0 KPA & runs all the way up to 103, a much broader operating range that covers the entire manifold operating pressure NICE!

More time needed & need to figure out this starting issue, hopefully the small changes I made to the zero RPM column will help, but I sure ain't betting the farm on it yet.

More later...

Addition edit: I started a post today in our Twin Cam listing, it did not seem to generate much interest, so I thing I'll just update my findings here & let that one dye...

[Sonny S.]

Thanks for any info 05....I'll be watching   

[FLTRI]

Had a few hard starts today? Let me clerify, crank & crank & then one time had a big boom out the exhaust??? Came home hooked the PC adjusted the zero column that was all zeros to a couple zero at max map pressure followed by some small numbers on up to like 10 degrees. Cranked the motor with it the PC hooked up fired right up??? So there is that issue going on, not feeling real confident about any of that yet.

You may find changing the "cranking fuel" "IAC warmup steps", and "warmup enrichment" tables will do best for changing the way the engine starts.
HTH,
Bob

[05FLHTC]

Bob the SERT I have is for carb bikes, maybe I should be calling it something else, are you thinking I have EFI maybe?

Here is what I am working with... SE part # 32124-04B.

http://www.hmhd.com/webstore/viewiteminfo.asp?SKU=32124-04B

Sorry if I misled ya...but if there is something in this programmable software that helps hard starts maybe I just have not found it yet. I'm trying to learn here, so please do tell

[FLTRI]

Bob the SERT I have is for carb bikes, maybe I should be calling it something else,....

OOPS!! Sorry I guess I just assumed SERT = EFI.
Do you have/need to use compression releases?

[05FLHTC]

Yes compression releases are a must, CCP is 208ish 10.77 CR. 

Made some improvement today with hard starting by placing some small timing numbers into the 0 RPM cells, that were all zeros to start with.

Monitoring the live data with the PC hooked while cranking the motor, my battery voltage is dropping to under 9 while cranking it through  the compression stroke, don't know maybe that's normal? Maybe that could be part of my problem, not sure. The battery is original from 2005, shows 12.2 volts while checking, but that's not applying any load.

I'm thinking maybe it's time for this battery to get retired to my garden tractor & get a new one...any thoughts out there?

[FLTRI]

Just make sure you opt for an AGM battery, they're worth the extra $ and no need to mess with venting.
Bob

[05FLHTC]

Put the new OEM HD battery in this morning, it does seem like it helped...still cranks more revs then I would like before it starts??? Wish I new if the SE race tuner -15 ignition map has some kind of delay programmed into it? It is better then it was, not getting any booms out the exhaust when it does start, so it is better. Just would like it to fire like pronto...

Made some small adjustments to the the map yesterday, bike is running very nice, but I still need to do a we bit more tweaking, it still feels like it might need a tiny bit more timing in some of the roll on areas yet. Very pleased with how things are shaping up...

[Sonny S.]

Does the SERT show an actual timing table ?

[Sonny S.]

Copy and paste from another thread :

From the looks of it the DTT " EX " version was created to meet CA emissions. You can now retard timing enough at idle, and low speed cruise to reduce emissions. IMHO this was not done so the rest of us would have an improved product... it was done in order to be able to sell a DTT module in emissions testing states.
For Race applications ( track use ) there is no concern for that. Why not just have 1 " EX " version ? I dunno

Tell ya what, if it had not been for 05's experience with this and the data he dumped from his bike I would still be in the dark about these issues with the DTT. Can't do that on 99-03 bikes.

Thanks 05 !!   

[05FLHTC]

Here are the tables SE & DTT maps.


[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[Sonny S.]

Link to TC .. DTT, Crane, and SE ingition thread.


http://harleytechtalk.net/htt/index.php?topic=11223.0

[warwick]

Very interesting and useful thread.   

1. Got a carbed TC 103", DDT TC88 Race version, 85cc heads, Wood little 6, 10.0:1 CR, rnning on 92-03 octane gas. Currently using 0-2-5 as starting point for engine break-in. Up to 2500 rpm no pinging issues. Will dyno bike to get AFR correct before manually experimenting further with the dials. Any suggestions?

2. If I buy the TC88 EX version with retarded advance curves, what would be the "new" starting point? (0-4-7? just a shot from hip LOL) 

3. It is my understanding that the current PC Link software is compatible for both TC88 Race and TC88 EX? 

warwick
   

[05FLHTC]

War,

Never played with the EX version of the software, sorry. Are experiencing ping at slight roll on at 2500rpm?

[warwick]

War,

Never played with the EX version of the software, sorry. Are experiencing ping at slight roll on at 2500rpm?

Tried an uphill 2500-3000 roll-on in 5th gear today and thought I noticed some barely audible crackling noises, but I'm not sure. FYI, position of heat mark on plug electrode indicates it could actually benefit from some additional advance, so frankly I'm slightly confused. 

Got the TC88 Race PC link interface gear but still in process of familiarizing myself with map modification procedures.

Warwick   

[FLTRI]

War,

Never played with the EX version of the software, sorry. Are experiencing ping at slight roll on at 2500rpm?

Tried an uphill 2500-3000 roll-on in 5th gear today and thought I noticed some barely audible crackling noises, but I'm not sure. FYI, position of heat mark on plug electrode indicates it could actually benefit from some additional advance, so frankly I'm slightly confused. 

Don't be confused. If you think it's pinging but not sure, give it 4 deg more advance and verify the noise you are hearing is in fact pinging as it will surely get more pronounced if you actually were hearing pinging.
If it gets no worse your plug reading is probably good to go for more timing.
If it gets worse then retard the timing 2 degs at a time (from the baseline) till the pinging goes away.
HTH,
Bob
PS - Pinging is usually described as a "tink-a-tink" rather than crackling, but everyone has their way of describing what they hear.

[05FLHTC]

I guess I'm confused now, reading plugs for timing? Hows that work? Today's fuel makes it very tough to read plugs & I might add if the plugs are showing much color your prolly looking at AFR that needs adjustment. Get the carb dialed in first then worry about fine tuning the timing.

[txtech]

I guess I'm confused now, reading plugs for timing? Hows that work? Today's fuel makes it very tough to read plugs & I might add if the plugs are showing much color your prolly looking at AFR that needs adjustment. Get the carb dialed in first then worry about fine tuning the timing.

i second that question.

[warwick]

FWIW, reading plugs and timing:

http://www.usaimports.co.uk/Mopar_Tech_Pages/Spark_Plug_Reading.htm

Warwick

[FLTRI]

...Today's fuel makes it very tough to read plugs & I might add if the plugs are showing much color your prolly looking at AFR that needs adjustment. Get the carb dialed in first then worry about fine tuning the timing.

[warwick]

...Today's fuel makes it very tough to read plugs & I might add if the plugs are showing much color your prolly looking at AFR that needs adjustment. Get the carb dialed in first then worry about fine tuning the timing.

Concur with that statement.

It is my understanding that even plugs with perfect color can tell us something about timing (...in addition to AF mixture). 
http://www.nitroustech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=524

Warwick

[05FLHTC]

War thanks for the links 

There were a couple of custom maps floating about here in this post, if nuttin fits yr fancy PM me & I'll send or make you one.

Kind of would be nice if we had a (MAPS only location, EFI, TTS, DTT ect...) on here...then we could segregate em & be able to find em easier when there needed, dynno maybe that would create some kind of conflict for some folks or maybe even a legal issue...

[Blackbaggr]

Bike - 07 FLHTC 96"
Cams- 26h
Tuner- TTS
Exhaust- Supertrapp Supermeg
Air- SE

I'm running the PZ 176 file. TTS Mastertune has modified (advanced) the timing on the original calibration anywhere from 1.5 to 3 (approximate) throughout the file. I was wondering if anyone has a well tuned (dyno) TTS calibration for a similar build that has more advance and would be willing to post it. If not, would BOB or HERKO (or anybody for that matter) be willing to comment on whether or not I could advance 2 degrees across the board safely and whether or not this is advisable. Thanks in advance (no pun intended).

[mayor]

Bill, any chance you could post your timing chart?

[Blackbaggr]

Here ya go Mayor ...

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[Blackbaggr]

Front...

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[Sonny S.]

Bill,

Odds of getting a map here are slim to none.
I would say you could definitly add timing at Idle, and WFO for sure. For one your compression is less than stock due to the cam change. I don't feel comfortable or confident enough to tell you how much to add, but maybe one of the tuners here will help you....or maybe not.
If you don't get a reply in this thread start a new one.

[harleytoprock]

I hoping you guys can help me here as Chris is not always an easy guy to talk with. This is a custom bike where the DTT unit is not easily accessible to change the switch settings. I can only make changes through data link. So to disable the switches, I've checked eeprom and fixed initial timing boxes. I wrote a new table and to play it safe I set the initial timing to  -2 hoping to lower across the board by 2. Should the -2 be reflected in the graph? When I open the table the graph doesn't show timing lowered by 2. Thanks for your help.

[Admiral Akbar]

I hoping you guys can help me here as Chris is not always an easy guy to talk with. This is a custom bike where the DTT unit is not easily accessible to change the switch settings. I can only make changes through data link. So to disable the switches, I've checked eeprom and fixed initial timing boxes. I wrote a new table and to play it safe I set the initial timing to  -2 hoping to lower across the board by 2. Should the -2 be reflected in the graph? When I open the table the graph doesn't show timing lowered by 2. Thanks for your help.

1. First the graph is the graph ( table is the table...  ) .. Whatever you put in will be the what you see when you take it out.. 

2. If you have selected fixed initial timing, setting the initail timing to -2 won't do anything..

3. Fixed initail timing is not selected, the dial works but what you down load still looks the same.

Max

[ejk_dyna]

<<1. First the graph is the graph ( table is the table...  ) .. Whatever you put in will be the what you see when you take it out.. 

2. If you have selected fixed initial timing, setting the initail timing to -2 won't do anything.. >>

...well just to clarify.  if you select fixed intial timing in module parameters AND enter -2 on the timing slider, for example...this WILL lower your custom curve settings -2d everywhere.  the -2 change is NOT reflected in your graph read-out...the initial timing DIAL on the unit no longer is operational.

[harleytoprock]

ejk, Thank you :up:Thats what I was starting to think that the fixed intial timing slider just takes the place of the switch dial.

[Don D]

Have not read this whole thread but just some random thoughts on timing based on my experiences with bikes and cars.
Back when I was a kid racing all the hot rod magazines (considered by me at the time to be biblical) said to recurve the mechanical advance for all the advance to come in by 2,000 or 2,200 rpm and run a total of ~36 referring to the needs for most high compression Chevys. Well later I learned the concept was not totally wrong but maybe half baked and then found out how this related to Harleys. I made a dummy distributer and recurved old points timers and mechanical advance HD units on my Sun machine. Not much demand for it as most had the philosophy you set the initial and if the timer was working (advance and retard) all was good. So time marches on and today we have totally adjustable advance curves via hardware and software. I see a void between the older IC engine basics and what appears to be more like recipe tuning. Just like fuel and air we have to give the motor what it wants when it wants it and not build in mechanical deficiencies that hinder the performance such as overly high mechanical compression. Timing is important and tuning EFI or carbed bikes and ignoring the timing if there is no detonation is probably leaving HP, TQ and economy on the table. So what??
Well we are building fairly high compression motors all things considered and remember the Chevy analogy about no vacuum advance and all mechanical? Consider that lower compression pre-computer motors utilized vacuum advance which typically adds 12-15° timing in high vacuum situations (cruise / coast) but dropped that at high load. On a stock twin cam same applies and they typically can run over 30° WOT. Now we build in 9+/1 mechanical compression (corrected), and changes are needed. They don't need as much total advance at WOT for one. They don't need and can actually experience detonation if advanced is added grossly in the cruise range, as has been documented here in this thread. So we drift back closer to the mechanical advance scenario. High compression motors don't need as much advance total so I think what we are doing is drifting back to what we did on the old cars. High initial advance relatively fast rise to maximum less total and not too much added for cruise / coast. I have toyed with the idea of creating a curve that was similar to the old cars, flattening the curve so to speak, and just have some dips at high load lower speed ranges to avoid detonation just to see how it would do. Might be interesting. Those old hot rod magazines did contain some substance and these new bikes resemble an old high compression motor loosely speaking.

[FLTRI]

...Those old hot rod magazines did contain some substance and these new bikes resemble an old high compression motor loosely speaking.

..."loosey speaking"

[Sonny S.]

>>>I have toyed with the idea of creating a curve that was similar to the old cars, flattening the curve so to speak, and just have some dips at high load lower speed ranges to avoid detonation just to see how it would do. Might be interesting.<<<

would love to see what you come up with Don   

[harleytoprock]

Sounds similar to the flat advance curves that the Moco used on the Evo models.

[Sonny S.]

Hey Don,

Have you played with that advance curve you were mentioning ?

[mike 120]

Don, any updates on your thoughts for timing tables for our high comp/ high ccp builds?
Maybe to get this thread jumpstarted.
Thanks
Mike

[Winston Wolf]

My engine is the Cycle-Rama Perfect Street 100/100 Twin Cam 95".  It uses 9.5:1 Cycle-Rama pistons, heads ported by them, and a Cycle-Rama grind cam. I got all the parts from them, so it's just like what they have on their site.  I'm running a Mikuni HSR42 with a Daytona Twin Tec TC88 ignition.

I got a chance to tune the Daytona Twin Tec TC88 ignition for the 100/100 build.  I did this after tuning my carb with an Innovate LM-2 Widband, so I knew my carburetor jetting was correct at all throttle levels.  My bike is a 2002 Dyna Low Rider, so it's a lighter bike. I also have a Screamin Eagle 6 speed, so it runs lower rpms than most down the highway. 

I was getting detonation when I rolled on the throttle at highway speeds, and also slightly under heavy, but not wide open, throttle from 4-5k.  Wide open was fine.  No doubt this was partially due to the overdrive, but that leads me to believe my results would perform well in a heavier bike also.

I started with CycleRama's recommended DTT settings of 4 innital advance and 3 slope.

I needed to pull back quite a bit in the 1500-3000 range, and completely change the shape of the curve.  The max timing of the 4/3 dial is pretty much spot on. I only reduced it 0.7 degrees as to not lose any WOT horsepower. There were spots I needed to reduce timing as much as 11 degrees to get the bike right.

I would gladly attach the TC88 map I am using for you guys to look at and use if you want. It took alot of work, and I'd hope someone could get some use out of it. I can email it to someone on the board if they can put it up to share.

On another note, I was getting some pretty vicious starter kickbacks when I went to start the bike hot.  I changed Cranking Revs setting in the TC88 to 1 (instead of 0), and that seemed to solve that problem.

[jluvs2ride]

In the TTS manual it gives a procedure for tuning your advance curve by adding two degrees to the cells in the timing maps, doing runs, watching for knock detection, removing timing from the cells where knock is detected, and repeating the process until all the cells in the timing maps are three or four degrees below the knock threshold.

Anyone have any real success doing this?

[05FLHTC]

My engine is the Cycle-Rama Perfect Street 100/100 Twin Cam 95".  It uses 9.5:1 Cycle-Rama pistons, heads ported by them, and a Cycle-Rama grind cam. I got all the parts from them, so it's just like what they have on their site.  I'm running a Mikuni HSR42 with a Daytona Twin Tec TC88 ignition.

I got a chance to tune the Daytona Twin Tec TC88 ignition for the 100/100 build.  I did this after tuning my carb with an Innovate LM-2 Widband, so I knew my carburetor jetting was correct at all throttle levels.  My bike is a 2002 Dyna Low Rider, so it's a lighter bike. I also have a Screamin Eagle 6 speed, so it runs lower rpms than most down the highway. 

I was getting detonation when I rolled on the throttle at highway speeds, and also slightly under heavy, but not wide open, throttle from 4-5k.  Wide open was fine.  No doubt this was partially due to the overdrive, but that leads me to believe my results would perform well in a heavier bike also.

I started with CycleRama's recommended DTT settings of 4 innital advance and 3 slope.

I needed to pull back quite a bit in the 1500-3000 range, and completely change the shape of the curve.  The max timing of the 4/3 dial is pretty much spot on. I only reduced it 0.7 degrees as to not lose any WOT horsepower. There were spots I needed to reduce timing as much as 11 degrees to get the bike right.

I would gladly attach the TC88 map I am using for you guys to look at and use if you want. It took alot of work, and I'd hope someone could get some use out of it. I can email it to someone on the board if they can put it up to share.

On another note, I was getting some pretty vicious starter kickbacks when I went to start the bike hot.  I changed Cranking Revs setting in the TC88 to 1 (instead of 0), and that seemed to solve that problem.

Please post the map

[dynaglide]

Winston,
I'm interested in some more detail on your build.  Is it at 9.5:1 CR, or have the heads been decked to bring CR up?  If so, how much?
Do you have the cam specs?  I'm interrested in the cam timing/lift that's making 100/100 from 95" at 9.5:1 (if that's what it is) compression.  Not skeptical; curious.

[Winston Wolf]

Dynaglide,

The cam is a custom Cyclerama 575 cam grind, specs are

Cycle Rama 575 cams

Intake Open 15 Close 35 .575 lift 230 duration 100LC 22 degree overlap 105.5 LSA
Ex. Open 49 Close 7 .560 lift 236 duration 111LC

I do not believe the heads are decked, but you could call them and see if they deck them for the package.  They did a nice port job on the heads and intake, and I am using their 95" flat top pistons also. The rest is pretty simple. HSR42 carb and open air cleaner, Rinehart staggered duals, Daytona ignition with custom curve, S&S gears with S&S adj pushrods.  I can't remember the head gasket thickness, but I used the ones they supplied in the 100/100 kit. (I think they were Comtek?)

If you send me your email address I can shoot you my timing curve.  I did have to dial it back quite a bit to get rid of all the detonation.  I credit that to my having an overdrive trans though.  I wanted to be able to twist on it in 6th from lower rpms and not worry. With a 5 speed you could probably add a few degrees to the midrange. I didn't, however take anything out of the WOT, so it retains the HP. I am really happy with everything so far.  This trip to Sturgis I got 45-53 mpg, depending on how fast I drove that tank. (between 60-85)

The Wolf.

[Winston Wolf]

I don't know how to post the map. I don't have an FTP. I would gladly email it to you if you would post it up for me. PM me your email.
[/quote]

Please post the map
[/quote]

[Winston Wolf]

In the TTS manual it gives a procedure for tuning your advance curve by adding two degrees to the cells in the timing maps, doing runs, watching for knock detection, removing timing from the cells where knock is detected, and repeating the process until all the cells in the timing maps are three or four degrees below the knock threshold.

Anyone have any real success doing this?

I did this with my DTT, took me 6 maps to get it right.  I did not go down 3-4 degrees below detonation though, maybe 2 deg.  It works.  I would wear earplugs and put my left hand in front of my ear so I didnt' get any wind noise, then test at various throttle positions and rpms.  I could hear the detonation with my plugs in as clear as day.

[wurk_truk]

In the TTS manual it gives a procedure for tuning your advance curve by adding two degrees to the cells in the timing maps, doing runs, watching for knock detection, removing timing from the cells where knock is detected, and repeating the process until all the cells in the timing maps are three or four degrees below the knock threshold.

Anyone have any real success doing this?

Yes, but only went down 1/2 point or one point below knock detection.  It is very time consuming, but bike doesn't ping.  The time taken was worth every minute as far as 'rideability'.  I did not ADD timing in most areas, just removed 'ping' points.  But actually the best way may be to pinpoint problem areas, add a small amount of fuel and see what THAT does first, THEN mess with timing if VEs get too far whacked out of shape from what the TTS or TS seems appropriate.  Every timing change has the ability to screw with the VE,s... so new VE runs are needed to correct fuel for timing changes......  back and forth.

Here's my thought, though, just altering a timing map for 'maximum timing' that the engine can withstand... doesn't really cut it.  One may move beyond where power is made.

Timing is tough... a dyno SHOWS power gains with timing changes.

I have a low power build (105hp/118tq) that is very forgiving build (grooved heads, 10:1, andrews 54s), and feel the TTS way is pretty good.  But for bigger power, or more finicky builds, a dyno would be needed.

This is all IMHO...

[Sonny S.]

>>>Here's my thought, though, just altering a timing map for 'maximum timing' that the engine can withstand... doesn't really cut it.  One may move beyond where power is made.<<<

     ... completely

thanks for the update wurk_truk !   
it would be interesring to see how much advance you are running 

[Don D]

Timing is tough... a dyno SHOWS power gains with timing changes
Yep at 90-100 MAP

Might find on the dyno that when the high map areas are fixed and timing is massaged the grooved head builds like a leaner AFR set in the 14 range and less timing for maximum power. They will make more power and torque midrange below the ping threshold and using closed loop AFRs

[wurk_truk]

I have to get the bike on a dyno this winter.

I had it dynoed in the past, but that didn't work out all that well in the timing dept.

v-tuning is great, as far as it goes, but timing is key (as Don says I have groovy heads), and I need a GOOD tuner to look for power on the dyno and get the timing right.  I have just guessed at timing right now with the 'max it and back off a couple' kinda thing.  This isn't the way to do it AFAIK.  IMHO.

I plan on having Jim--Strokerjlk-- do the dyno thing, eventually.

When I do this....  I will surely post the timing maps then.

[Don D]

Good tuner! he will get er done

[Heatwave3]

Here's the timing tables on my 2010 110" with Hillside Heads (10.3:1), SE 58mmTB, SE 5.3 injectors, roller rockers, Woods 408-6 cams, stock pistons/cyl, D&D Fatcat, Ventilator A/C, SEPST. Latest Dyno shows 111hp/115Tq. 93 octane fuel at sea level. Thoughts on the timing are appreciated.

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[jluvs2ride]

2008 Fat Bob, Mostly stock, J.E.T. AirStack, D&D Fat Cat. I run premium no ethanol.


[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[djl]

Here's some explanation of why higher timing numbers (in the right areas) help.  This is a carburated module example, but the same timing suggestions apply to injection.
More timing at idle (up to reasonable levels) will smooth out the idle and let the engine run cooler idling.  Very helpful when you're stuck in traffic.  That's one spot the available maps using the module dip switches fall short.  When you use the switches to come up with a map that doesn't ping and gives good wide open power, it is lazy and retarded at the low end.  That's where a custom map can help.  If you hook up a scanalyzer and look at the timing a big twin idles at with stock ignition, it's around 26-30 degrees (earlier Twin Cams, anyway).  No reason you can't do that with adjustable modules too.  It's not going to ping when it's idling.

I've seen late model injected bikes idling at 12 degrees on a canned tuner map.  What are these programmers thinking?  Must be for emission reasons.  Less timing = less emissions.  These motors are way happier idling at timing numbers in the 20s.

The other area that benefits from higher timing is when coasting down from higher rpm (where some motors will pop & backfire).  More timing there will usually lessen the popping in the exhaust.  Again, you're not going to ping when you're decelerating.  Carbed or injected both benefit.

When a tuner says "timing is maxed at 26 degrees wide open" he means that at the lowest manifold vacuum (when the throttle is wide open)  (see the bottom of the attached graph), the timing goes no higher than 26 degrees.

The "roll-on" throttle area is where most pinging issues occur.  It's sometimes helpful to drop the timing there to stop pinging when you roll into it (say around 60 mph in 5th gear to pass someone).

Ken,
Would you mind posting the ignition table for that graph?  Still learningand it would help me to see both.  Particularly interested in the coast timing and what timing issue might cause a "burp" at level cruise, say 70-80mph.  More likely jetting but curious if timing could contribute.

[Ken R]

Upper right = looks like a well developed ignition map.
Upper right = looks like a large, general swipe at timing by basically removing all the agressive timing, possibly due to high compression.
Lower left = looks like the engineer who wrote the map forgot to set timing for low MAP, upper rpms. LOL! (not too important)
Lower right = looks like a map for a high torque, high CCP engine.

And the survey says?

Looks to me that three of the four have timing of approximately 12 degrees at idle and the fourth (lower left) very close to that.    Am I reading this wrong?

[chrisroadking]

The factory sends the bikes out advanced for emission standards so taking timing out will infact  reduce emissions but improve power 

[mayor]

The factory sends the bikes out advanced for emission standards so taking timing out will infact  reduce emissions but improve power

really, got any examples to share? what ranges are you talking about? 

[FLTRI]

The factory sends the bikes out advanced for emission standards so taking timing out will infact  reduce emissions but improve power

really, got any examples to share? what ranges are you talking about? 

I have yet to see examples of this timing strategy. Maybe heard it through the grapevine?
Bob

[blusmbl]

Timing is usually retarded at cold idle to aid with catalyst lightoff & maintain exhaust heat.

[mayor]

Timing is usually retarded at cold idle to aid with catalyst lightoff & maintain exhaust heat.

now this I have seen.   

[Steve Cole]

As a general rule of thumb the more retarded the timing is the higher the EGT's are going to be. The more advanced (to a point) the cooler the EGT's will be, but it will also raise cylinder pressure and produce more NOx emissions. So using this to there advantage the factory typically sets the idle timing retarded to aid in catalyst light off and lower NOx then when the engine heat gets too hot will advance the idle timing to aid in cooling the engine and loose the reduction in NOx.

[Ken R]

Sounds cut and dried, same timing for all of us? 

So where should idle timing be set (cool engine, warm engine).

[Steve Cole]

With Mastertune the default values are very close to what is needed. Each combination can take a slightly different value but about 18 - 20 degrees in the closed throttle tables at normal temperature and 23 -25 at cold temperatures is a good starting point. Also make sure to set the main spark tables at the idle area to whatever your final values are in the normal temperature closed throttle tables.

[CTCVOrider]

Acknowledging that no generalization is true in all cases...  Is there a general coorelation between more or less timing that yields the best fuel economy?  In other words, decrease until mileage decreases than add 1 or just the reverse?

[Overcamber]

I just read every single thread on this post and it ends like this???

[Jackal]

Finally, a post dedicated to ignition timing! ...about 3 years ago.

I am looking for advice on initial ignition timing on an EFI Sportster 1250 10.5:1 with lots of cam overlap and a sluggish off idle throttle response once warmed up, and off idle acceleration issues till about 10 MPH. Commanding 14.6:1 and I think the cams bleed off compression down to about 180 psi cranking comp. Would the best column to make changes to be the 50 KPa column from say...1000-1750 RPM or??? Currently I am at about 12-13 deg advanced in these cells. Thanks!!! I also made a detailed post in this section if that interested.

ETA: Here is a shot of my fantastic running 2006 (carb) timing MAP (top table) provided by XLF member Rico, with conversion tables to KPa (middle two) for comparison purposes with the 2008 (EFI) timing MAP in the bottom table labeled "PV1 MAP".

[skypilot_one]

An interesting old thread.