TIMING....... IS EVERYTHING !

[ViennaHog]

I run my 103 Ultra 2008 (Woods TW6, a/c, slip ons) at 24 deg advance from 750 to 1250 RPM from 0-40 map. That pretty much covers elevated idle and it definitely reduces heat at idle. On if extremely hot during city riding I notice the occasional ping from off idle. And no glowing head pipes for sure.

[whittlebeast]

If anything the EFI bikes need a little less timing as the fuel is better "mixed" in the combustion chamber.

The timing tables are easy to change it you have a SERT or a thundermax.  On the PC3 you are only adding or subtracting from the stock "fuzzy logic" curves.

AW 

[axtell]

I agree with Ken...the car and truck engines pulled timing out to raise the temperature in the cat. to help clean up emmissions(NOX i think)  Ron

[Don D]

HD has done the same thing and the cat is the pipe in the late models. This cat in the pipe works fairly well and lowers the total emission number for the big three CO HC are very low but NOX is still high, but the OEM meets the total standard based on the total allowed. I do see one other effect of too much timing at low speed, just for the putters that like to run at 1000-2000 rpm at light load the motor can hunt if the timing is too far advanced.

[whittlebeast]

OK...  How do you explain the differance in logic between these four timing maps.  These bikes do not have Cats.

Top Left, Stock Harley 1200 _____Top Right, Typical Motor/My Map

Bottom Left, SERT Stage One____Bottom Right, SERT Stage Two

[FLTRI]

Upper right = looks like a well developed ignition map.
Upper right = looks like a large, general swipe at timing by basically removing all the agressive timing, possibly due to high compression.
Lower left = looks like the engineer who wrote the map forgot to set timing for low MAP, upper rpms. LOL! (not too important)
Lower right = looks like a map for a high torque, high CCP engine.

And the survey says?

[TXChop]

Ken, that makes great sence, thanks! Now, just a question about starting a high compression motor. Can you adjust cranking timing? And do you still offer custom maps?

[whittlebeast]

TXCHOP

I have not actually tested this but it appears that the bottom right corner of the timing map controls the cranking timing.  See the blue area in the graphs above.  I can tell you that the data logs are showing 0 degrees timing durring cranking on my Sporty.  I could test this one if needed.

My Sporty cranks at 450 RPM at 95 KPA on a 99.8 KPA day.  I wonder if the high altitude bikes crank with more timing?

AW

[Don D]

Ken,

Thanks for the link to this thesis paper.  The article does support the statement that late spark timing reduces emissions.  If I am reading this article correctly the late ignition timing also appears to create other problems in that the HC emissions are reduced due to the charge being burned in the exhuast runner (but prior to the catalytic converter inlet) and in that the late timing event extracts less energy per charge (stroke).

Good stuff.

B 

Bingo you have just very perfectly and simply described the HD OEM emission reduction scheme. That with the new 06 up head casting with a big slow exhaust port and you have a recipe for low emissions and no need for a Cat. Save money...good for shareholders. Energy per stroke, performance, just a byproduct of the added cu inches up to 96" now up from 88" and the only emission value  not kept in check is NOX but the total allowable value is well under the limit for totals when Co and HC are added. And we all thought the new heads were a performance upgrade. Not the OEMs goal.

[hi$toy]

with all this valuable knowledge being passed hereI have one question---Does anyone know of a goodtuner for the DTT ignition that could program one of these maps to a Carbed 95 " WT-26 build ? Ilive in Fayetteville NC and no one seems to know how to program these maps-Go Fast was kind enough to send me his map as our builds were very similar, the closest dealer to me that I would trust is Ray Price Harley and they have told me they " as other dealers mostly use the Screaming Eagle module and have very little expierence with the DTT modules---suggestions anyone?

[FLTRI]

"suggestions anyone?"
Yes, Gofast probably has a perfectly good timing map. As you said your build is similar.
That said, let me shed a little light on why you are having a difficult time getting responses to your request:
Timing maps are the most difficult mapping of all due to the tuner not having very good ways to quantify part throttle power increases/decreases and how they will be affected with real-world loading (detonation, ping). The best way to adjust ignition timing is based on combustion pressure which takes special sensors, and data acquisition system (at least 1500 sample per sec) that cost big bucks, especially the sensors.
Most all combustion pressure sensors require drilling and installing them into the actual combustion chamber. They so make a special "sparkplug" that also incorporates a pressure sensor, but expensive and wear don't last very long.

The engine mfrs have these systems and spend a ton of hours tuning timing maps based on actual events and through their engineering capabilities can get the maps pretty good.

Does this mean they get it right everytime? Heck no, but they can get it right more times than get it wrong, which is better than us tuners with our simple Eddy Brake inertia dynos equipped with speed and engine rpm sensors.

I am fortunate to have a pretty nice D/A system (CDS) on my dyno (I used to sell them) but it is nowhere near fast enough to capture combustion pressure events when the engine is above 3000 rpms.

Another point: The time it takes instrument the vehicle to use effectively it makes it difficult to use it on an everyday basis to tune customer's everyday street bike. We can only justify to use it for R&D to measure EGTs, Strain gauging, Temps (other than engine) and to incluse the engine sensors from the data stream from the ECM and then be able to go back and replay the events to look for ways to improve systems and/or diagnose problems that do not show up on the std HP/Tq graphs.

What you got from GoFast is probably an existing base map that he spent some/considerable time to make changes, mostly to WOT, then either dynoed the changes and/or rode it on the street to make sure it didn't detonate, but that is just conjecture on my part.

[-SeabrookTrickBagger]

Interested in sharing your timing table or ignition module settings?

Please list complete build info, including CR, and CCP if you have it.
What octane fuel are you using ?
If you know what altitude you are at that would be great too.
Try to post in a way that is easily viewed, and no special software needed.

TIA,
Sonny

DTT TCFI II:   Do you want graphs or just the organized numbers in text format?  I have not tried to use attachments yet, so we shall see if I can.  Do you want just the ignition advance data or alpha n data too?

[Scramjet]

I hope this does not infringe on TTS.  If so I will remove it immediately.


A timing comparison.

   TTS MasterTune PS176 - big bore SE255                              
   MAP                              
RPM   15   20   30   40   50   60   70   80   90   95   100
750   17   17   17   17   17   10.5   6   -3   -4   -4   -4
1000   17   17   17   17   17   11   7   -1   -2   -4   -4
1125   17   17   17   17   17   12   8   0   -1   -4   -4
1250   17   17   17   17   17   13   10   2   1   0   0
1500   17   17   17   17   17   16   12   6   4   1   1
1750   17   17   17   17   17   17   14   10   5   2   2
2000   20   20   20   20   20   20   16   13   8   5   5
2250   29   29   29   29   29   24   19   17   12   9   9
2500   38   38   42   42   38   32   22   18   15   12   12
2750   43   43   43   43   42   38   26   22   18   13   13
3000   45   45   45   44   43   40   30   25   19   15   15
3500   45   45   45   44   43   41   31   27   22   17   17
4000   45   45   45   45   44   42   37   29   24   20   20
4500   45   45   45   45   45   43   39   30   26   22   22
5000   45   45   45   45   45   44   39   31   27   23   23
5500   45   45   45   45   45   44   39   31   28   26   26
6000   45   45   45   45   45   44   39   30   29   27   27
                                 
   TTS MasterTune NI176 - big bore SE 257 heads intake                              
   MAP                              
RPM   15   20   30   40   50   60   70   80   90   95   100
750   22   22   22   19   14   7   3   2   2   2   2
1000   22   22   22   20   15   8   4   3   3   3   3
1250   23   23   23   21   17   10   7   5   5   5   5
1500   25   25   25   22   18   12   9   7   7   7   7
1750   28   28   28   25   20   15   11   10   9   9   9
2000   32   32   31   26   22   18   14   13   12   12   12
2250   36   36   32   27   23   20   16   15   15   15   15
2500   38   38   33   28   24   21   19   18   18   18   18
2750   38   38   34   29   26   23   20   19   19   19   19
3000   38   38   36   31   27   24   21   19   19   19   19
3500   38   38   37   33   29   25   22   20   19   19   19
4000   38   38   36   33   29   26   23   20   19   19   19
4500   38   38   36   33   29   26   23   21   20   20   20
5000   38   38   36   34   30   26   23   21   20   20   20
5500   38   38   36   34   30   26   24   22   21   21   21
6000   38   38   36   35   30   26   24   22   21   21   21
7000   38   38   36   35   31   26   25   23   22   22   22

                                 
Difference   MAP                              
RPM   15   20   30   40   50   60   70   80   90   95   100
0   -5   -5   -5   -2   3   3.5   3   -5   -6   -6   -6
0   -5   -5   -5   -3   2   2.5   3   -4   -5   -7   -7
-125   -6   -6   -6   -4   0   1.5   1   -5   -6   -9   -9
-250   -8   -8   -8   -5   -1   1   1   -5   -6   -7   -7
-250   -11   -11   -11   -8   -3   1   1   -4   -5   -8   -8
-250   -15   -15   -14   -9   -5   -1   0   -3   -7   -10   -10
-250   -16   -16   -12   -7   -3   0   0   -2   -7   -10   -10
-250   -9   -9   -4   1   5   3   0   -1   -6.5   -9   -9
-250   0   0   8   13   12   9   2   -1   -4   -7.5   -7.5
-250   5   5   7   12   15   14   5   3   -1.5   -6   -6
-500   7   7   8   11   14   14.5   8   4.5   0   -4   -4
-500   7   7   9   11   14   15   8   7   2.5   -2   -2
-500   7   7   9   12   15   16   14   8   4   0   0
-500   7   7   9   11   15   17   16   9   6   2   2
-500   7   7   9   11   15   18   15   9   6   2   2
-500   7   7   9   10   15   18   15   9   7   5   5
-1000   7   7   9   10   14   18   14   7   7   5   5

[FLTRI]

Interesting to note the more agressive/advanced ignition timing is in what I would consider mid-high rpm/M.A.P. (load) for the cam with the higher CCP and least overlap, SE255.
I would have assumed it would be the opposite, but that may be why owners have complained of pinging/detonation with their as deliver/installed SE103 bikes or builds w/SE255s.

[Scramjet]

Interesting to note the more agressive/advanced ignition timing is in what I would consider mid-high rpm/M.A.P. (load) for the cam with the higher CCP and least overlap, SE255.
I would have assumed it would be the opposite, but that may be why owners have complained of pinging/detonation with their as deliver/installed SE103 bikes or builds w/SE255s.

That is what I was thinking and what got me started on this comparison in Excel.  Especially in the 60-70 MAP and 2,000-3,000 RPM areas where most "roll-ons" start.  I would sure like to hear further thoughts/comments on this.  I certainly would have expected more timing on the higher overlap/later closing cam set-up.

B

[pikeslayer]

More timing at idle (up to reasonable levels) will smooth out the idle and let the engine run cooler idling.

I would think more advance (combustion begins sooner) would mean that more of the combustion would take place in the combustion chamber, therefore raising engine temperatures.  Less advance would leave some of the combustion to take place in the exhaust, therefore lowering engine temp.

Where am I going wrong?

[pikeslayer]

Anyone there?               

[ederdelyi]

If you were monitoring EGT's (Exhaust Gas Temp) you would see that at some point the retarded ignition setting will raise the EGT's.The reason EGT's often go up when running retarded ignition is because the mixture is still burning when the exhaust valves open up. By advancing the ignition, you give the mixture more time to complete its burn. This leads to lower EGT's and a cooler running motor.

In an emissions motor with cats it's a balancing act with the timing and AFR to make the cats work and meet emissions. When we circumvent all the emissions requirements and shoot for maximum performance the AFR and timing tables will be way different than anything you will see in an OEM map

[Sonny S.]

 >>>Less advance would leave some of the combustion to take place in the exhaust, therefore lowering engine temp.<<<

Combustion taking place in the exaust would mean a " slow burn " and that actually creates heat. I have seen pipes turn blue right in front of me due to someone retarding the timing too much at idle. ( was on an EVO )

[Sonny S.]

Ed, you posted while I was typing......slooow   

[ederdelyi]

No prob, buddy. Just had to get away from that CF going on the TC forum for awhile :>)

[Scramjet]

Bear in mind that late timing at idle may increase exhaust temp while decreasing engine temp.  The article posted earlier in this thread suggested that late timing could actually reduce emissions.  Yup, a balancing act.

B

[ederdelyi]

Yes, it can go both ways ... there is usually a definite "hinge" point . EGT and CHT can be real interesting to watch as they interact.

[FLTRI]

Yes, it can go both ways ... there is usually a definite "hinge" point . EGT and CHT can be real interesting to watch as they interact. My onboard DA setup has been invaluable in understanding what the motor is really doing under real world conditions. No 25k wheel dyno can deliver that kind of data. Not slamming them, they do a good job for what they are.

Ed,
What D/A system do you use?
Bob

[ToBeFrank]

Bob,
It's a "Heinz 57". Total homebrew cobbeled together from bits and pieces.
Normal data channels:
G -force(s)
Wheel speed
Engine RPM
CHT X 2
EGT x 2
AFR x 2 (NTK wide band)
AFR x 2 (narrow band)
MAP
TPS

4 additional analog inputs that can be used for other data.

A "redneck" engineering special, did it as a spare time/fun project a long time ago and have used it for many different applications. I wrote all the software for it as well.

What controller are you using for the widebands?