107 flow numbers

[sbcharlie]

here are some flow test numbers to ponder

lift         intake stock          intake ported                exhaust stock        exhaust ported
.100         96             118                    88              100
.200        189             211                   169              181
.300        255             275                   177              207
.400        288             323                   185              220
.500        303             355                   188              247

i was shocked how well heads turned out, as i stated the factory heads are pretty damm good

i flowed the intake port runners separately   see  4-6 cfm difference as expected through lift ranges
going to get my bike running in next 2 weeks as a 107
i purchased 114  stage 4 kit will flow numbers as soon as i get heads
AV&V will have guides and valve in early March 
rumors are theres 4 valve sportster in the works   
waiting for soul brother drag races here in April  to how the old girl does

[Ohio HD]

Pretty positive looking.        Do the shape of the factory valves look like they cold be improved upon for flow, assuming using the same size valve? 

[sfmichael]

wow 

[sbcharlie]

the stock valves are a nail head design, that is common in 4 valve heads. jay at AV&V is working on oversize valves and profiles.  i will have a tube up today on flow testing a m8 head  charlie

[Ohio HD]

the stock valves are a nail head design, that is common in 4 valve heads. jay at AV&V is working on oversize valves and profiles.  i will have a tube up today on flow testing a m8 head  charlie

    A link when you do, if you don't mind.

[SP33DY]

I just got my M8 Screamin' Eagle heads in.

The intake valves are 40 mm with a 30° back cut, stems reduce from 5.98 mm to 5.39 mm below the guide area with a swirl texture. The back of the valve is about 20°.

The intake seats are 3 angle, with a 35.9 mm throat.

On the pushrod side port, the port decreases in width from the seat to the end of the divider wall. The sprocket shaft side port increases in width from the seat to the end of the divider wall.

Exhaust valves are 32 mm with a 1.2 mm margin, and stems reduce with a swirl texture from 5.97 mm to about 5.8 mm just below the guide, then begin a gradual flare out to meet the back of the valve. The back of the valve is about 20° by eye, but quickly ramps up to a steeper tulip away from the seat.

The exhaust seats are 3 angle with a 25.5 mm throat.

The exhaust ports both slightly widen going away from the seats.

[stogieluvr60]

They flow all right...but the velocity isn't there...cylinder fill is an issue.

[1FSTRK]

I just got my M8 Screamin' Eagle heads in.

The intake valves are 40 mm with a 30° back cut, stems reduce from 5.98 mm to 5.39 mm below the guide area with a swirl texture. The back of the valve is about 20°.

The intake seats are 3 angle, with a 35.9 mm throat.

On the pushrod side port, the port decreases in width from the seat to the end of the divider wall. The sprocket shaft side port increases in width from the seat to the end of the divider wall.

Exhaust valves are 32 mm with a 1.2 mm margin, and stems reduce with a swirl texture from 5.97 mm to about 5.8 mm just below the guide, then begin a gradual flare out to meet the back of the valve. The back of the valve is about 20° by eye, but quickly ramps up to a steeper tulip away from the seat.

The exhaust seats are 3 angle with a 25.5 mm throat.

The exhaust ports both slightly widen going away from the seats.

Are there flow number for these heads?

[sbcharlie]

i have set of CNC ported heads to be delivered on friday. i will post the numbers. what are you talking about no port velocity. these things howl on a flow bench and will probe these heads . a lot false truths in my view   sbc

[SP33DY]

Are there flow number for these heads?

I haven't had time to get them on the flow bench yet. Just took some measurements when they came in. I'll post when I get around to it unless someone else gets there first.

[1FSTRK]

here are some flow test numbers to ponder

lift         intake stock          intake ported                exhaust stock        exhaust ported
.100         96             118                    88              100
.200        189             211                   169              181
.300        255             275                   177              207
.400        288             323                   185              220
.500        303             355                   188              247

i was shocked how well heads turned out, as i stated the factory heads are pretty damm good

i flowed the intake port runners separately   see  4-6 cfm difference as expected through lift ranges
going to get my bike running in next 2 weeks as a 107
i purchased 114  stage 4 kit will flow numbers as soon as i get heads
AV&V will have guides and valve in early March 
rumors are theres 4 valve sportster in the works   
waiting for soul brother drag races here in April  to how the old girl does

Nice increases and thanks for sharing them here.
Were you able to achieve these numbers with stock seat ID's or have you opened them up?

[sbcharlie]

just got the CNC ported heads from harley in. looks like FERRA valves, do not understand why they did not change guide shape, well how harley operates. they left throat ratio as stock, i did the same on my heads. since they have a bit larger valve they were able to get a top angle instead of a break as stock heads. i get more detailed in next day or so so at top lift they flow 331 cfm at 28 inches. what i do not understand they did very little work on the charge point. that where all the action is at in a 4 valve head. when AV&V gets valves and guides available i bet we will see 370 plus cfm easy and can assure you lots of port velocity.  the other test i will do soon is install the ferra valves in my heads and see what happens. sbc

[1FSTRK]

Thanks for the info, looking forward to the updates.
370 cfm  I just do not see how you can use that much flow efficiently by 6000 rpm on a street Harley.
At 1.924 cfm per hp that would be 192 hp, At an even 2 it is still 185 hp.

[sbcharlie]

this is very interesting the CNC ported heads are a different casting.  i was checking intake port volume  a stock head is 146 cc the head i ported is 151cc   the CNC ported head is 118cc, the floor of the ports raised and charge point is completely different

[SP33DY]

this is very interesting the CNC ported heads are a different casting.  i was checking intake port volume  a stock head is 146 cc the head i ported is 151cc   the CNC ported head is 118cc, the floor of the ports raised and charge point is completely different

Charlie,
Thanks for pointing that out! I still have not managed to get a stock head to compare to the S.E Head. I imagine they'll be plentiful after people start buying SE heads.

[rigidthumper]

Reducing the port size should take velocity the right direction. Seems to me HD has always had more port size than was needed, or optimum for velocity.

[1FSTRK]

this is very interesting the CNC ported heads are a different casting.  i was checking intake port volume  a stock head is 146 cc the head i ported is 151cc   the CNC ported head is 118cc, the floor of the ports raised and charge point is completely different

It appears Harley has someone helping on the heads that knows something about flow work, it also appears that they have learned a lesson about supplying the aftermarket with good usable cores for porting. They make the stock head bigger and slower, does not make any big difference in EPA form and then keep the good casting for the SE crowd.


As always, thanks Charlie for sharing.

[TorQuePimp]

i have set of CNC ported heads to be delivered on friday. i will post the numbers. what are you talking about no port velocity. these things howl on a flow bench and will probe these heads . a lot false truths in my view   sbc

Most if not all 4 valve heads howl

Did you get a pitot tube down in the heads to see where the velocity isnt ?

Cant wait for the cast off heads to start showing up

[sbcharlie]

i did i will post results on sunday. it was interesting port velocity was about the same in both heads. want to get stock head numbers. i remember you posted you want to to see two valve heads awhile back thats a move in the backward direction
just my thoughts

[sbcharlie]

port flow velocity checked these three  times on each  head   stock 360-379 feet per sec
CNC port from harley   410-420   sbc heads   440-550   drive me crazy  cc volume  difference 
do more testing today

[TorQuePimp]

i did i will post results on sunday. it was interesting port velocity was about the same in both heads. want to get stock head numbers. i remember you posted you want to to see two valve heads awhile back thats a move in the backward direction
just my thoughts

Certainly not the first time we have disagreed nor the last

Where most guys turn these engines......Something like a 89cc super stock head would be about perfect

[1FSTRK]

this is very interesting the CNC ported heads are a different casting.  i was checking intake port volume  a stock head is 146 cc the head i ported is 151cc   the CNC ported head is 118cc, the floor of the ports raised and charge point is completely different

What is the definition of the "charge point" and how do you determine where in the port it actually is?

[sbcharlie]

a charge point in a 4 valve head is the divider in the port. since its is casted its a fixed point. over the years working with 4 valve heads i seen many different various designs from a very short charge point to long charge point where ports are tunneled.  on long type you can grind them down if needed or short one weld or epoxy them. my point of view harley has location correct. they even designed them to assist the intake charge to the spark plugs. the interesting thing is the CNC ported heads, and there smaller port design and floor of the port. where i am confused is port velocity , a stock ported head can get better or equal port velocity. we can flow heads and document, but until its on the engine and dyno tuned we will know the bottom line. i will be going back to Australia soon, excited to discuss this head data with Nissan engineers. the other thing we have to look to the future with harley the rumors which are true the sportster will have these heads. its interesting and exciting to see and learn how to enhance air flow and port velocity. i hope today we can finally shoot a utube  on  these heads

[1FSTRK]

a charge point in a 4 valve head is the divider in the port. since its is casted its a fixed point. over the years working with 4 valve heads i seen many different various designs from a very short charge point to long charge point where ports are tunneled.  on long type you can grind them down if needed or short one weld or epoxy them. my point of view harley has location correct. they even designed them to assist the intake charge to the spark plugs. the interesting thing is the CNC ported heads, and there smaller port design and floor of the port. where i am confused is port velocity , a stock ported head can get better or equal port velocity. we can flow heads and document, but until its on the engine and dyno tuned we will know the bottom line. i will be going back to Australia soon, excited to discuss this head data with Nissan engineers. the other thing we have to look to the future with harley the rumors which are true the sportster will have these heads. its interesting and exciting to see and learn how to enhance air flow and port velocity. i hope today we can finally shoot a utube  on  these heads

Man do you ever sleep?

Thanks for the quick reply, What makes this the charge point, where is it in a two valve head?
What does the charge point do? What makes it a charge point? I am looking to understand the term, is it the smallest CSA of the port? Is it the point in the port with the greatest velocity, what characteristics make/define the charge point in any port, two or four valve?

[sbcharlie]

the term charge point is used in 4 valve heads. you are correct this is CSA of the port and where all the action happens in a port. like i stated this point or divider are over the place. back in early days the  charge point was close to intake or where manifold. these were long tunnels to each valve. over the years they made the charge point shorter or closer to the valves. what interesting on the exhaust port over the years the floor of the port was raised. years ago i welded the  exhaust port floor on a V-rod had great results. its always been interesting reading other views on thoughts of an exhaust port. on my Kawasaki flat track heads i always weld up the floor of the exhaust. we saw 100 plus horse power with this set up, not bad for 730 cc engine in my view, sad thing about flat track bikes the spec tire is good for 80 horse power set up