M8 trans fluid leaking in primary

[rbabos]

We believe we have found the source and fix for this phenomenon.

I will post pics and information as soon as we have verified our current findings.

Daren

?

Still in the testing mode with the modification we made and so far so good, I just performed another complete tune, with over 30 max power runs along with spirited riding thereafter and thus far no transfer.

As soon as we feel like we have it nailed down, I will post what we did.

You can tell me. I can keep a secret.
Ron

[Coyote]

We believe we have found the source and fix for this phenomenon.

I will post pics and information as soon as we have verified our current findings.

Daren

?

Still in the testing mode with the modification we made and so far so good, I just performed another complete tune, with over 30 max power runs along with spirited riding thereafter and thus far no transfer.

As soon as we feel like we have it nailed down, I will post what we did.

You wouldn't want to let SC beat you to it.   

[Herko]

You wouldn't want to let SC beat you to it.

Lol. He may end up taking the credit anyway...but that's ok.
As a famous president said..."You can accomplish much if you don't care who gets the credit".

Possibly, it was a bit presumptive to say a fix may be on the way. And, what's being tested to fix this on Durwood's M8 may end up being a nothing burger. However, testing will continue until certainty (or at least relative certainty) is realized. But, so far it's working. Either way, as many know, in problem/solution research...when testing the "solution(s)", much is learned along the way.

[1FSTRK]

I agree and would add that a true solution can only be achieved after the actual cause has been identified. Do you feel you have identified the what has changed in these transmission to cause this to happen?

Would you share the cause with us?

[HD/Wrench]

 We made two changes to the system , I have had the bike for tuning and some other work. Thus far it has not transferred any fluid. i have spooled it up to 4500 and run it that way until engine temps get hot cool it down and do it again . Customer took it out over the weekend put just over 800 miles on it and its back as of monday. Level has stayed  right where it was when it left.

Now If HD has a fix that should be interesting as to how they approach it .  The dealers are very aware of this and thus far have stayed very quiet about it .. One dealer that I know has had  several customers of mine for tune take the bike in for this issue. I cold called that dealer they acted like they never heard of it    So best guess is they are being told to keep tight lipped about it.

My question is how much wear or damage has been done to these transmission with almost no fluid in them   Are we going to see a extra 2 years on warranty for the trans??  Same old deal .. its not a issue no harm came from it you will be ok ..

Makes me thing back when the rear cam plate bearings was fragging in the early TC engines.. Per the MOCO clean out cam chest replace one bearing oil change have a nice day !!!!   

[Herko]

...a true solution can only be achieved after the actual cause has been identified. ...

Fully agree.

Have yet to read what's been discussed about this on HDF. Maybe I should.

We're focused on a "probable" cause. Sporadic venting.
Hope to soon determine to be it the definitive cause. If not, back to the drawing board.
Have a few fix ideas for the venting issue.
One solution at a time to properly determine...regimented testing.
The simplest fix is implemented.
Has worked thus far via some serious Dyno and street operation.

[HD/Wrench]

...a true solution can only be achieved after the actual cause has been identified. ...

Fully agree.

Have yet to read what's been discussed about this on HDF. Maybe I should.

We're focused on a "probable" cause. Sporadic venting.
Hope to soon determine to be it the definitive cause. If not, back to the drawing board.
Have a few fix ideas for the venting issue.
One solution at a time to properly determine...regimented testing.
The simplest fix is implemented.
Has worked thus far via some serious Dyno and street operation.

[Sunny Jim]

I wonder if techs from the MoCo read these forums?

[02roadcling]

I wonder if techs from the MoCo read these forums?

Yes, they all do that. (It's how they learn.)

   cling

[rbabos]

I wonder if techs from the MoCo read these forums?

Yes, they all do that. (It's how they learn.)

   cling

No "Potty mouth"?
Ron

[1FSTRK]

Has anyone figured out what is different between these and the last twin cam parts?
The trans and primary have been connected in this fashion for a long time, the pressures should not have changed and with the trans having the vent I would think pressure from the primary would push fluid the other direction.

I would think it is a mechanical action sending fluid down the clutch rod and that comparing parts from the previous design would show what is causing it. Anyone have pictures of some actual pieces?

[harleytuner]

I wonder if techs from the MoCo read these forums?

I know their lawyers do! 

[Sunny Jim]

So HDF has notes now on injecting dye into the gearbox with the intention of identifying it in the primary oil. This was varified in HD Germany and the owner is getting a new gearbox. This the second time this has happened according to HDF notes. Steve Cole ran his test bike with the dip stick out and hole covered with a breathable cover. it made no difference to the condition.

[rbabos]

So HDF has notes now on injecting dye into the gearbox with the intention of identifying it in the primary oil. This was varified in HD Germany and the owner is getting a new gearbox. This the second time this has happened according to HDF notes. Steve Cole ran his test bike with the dip stick out and hole covered with a breathable cover. it made no difference to the condition.

Why would it. It's a mechanical fluid transfer, not a pressure transfer.
Ron

[harleytuner]

So HDF has notes now on injecting dye into the gearbox with the intention of identifying it in the primary oil. This was varified in HD Germany and the owner is getting a new gearbox. This the second time this has happened according to HDF notes. Steve Cole ran his test bike with the dip stick out and hole covered with a breathable cover. it made no difference to the condition.

Why would it. It's a mechanical fluid transfer, not a pressure transfer.
Ron

Steve called me today and this was brought up.  He did some testing and has made improvements on his bike but hasn't tested it on others yet.  He didn't eloborate nor did i ask what he did,  He just said that his bike was pushing all bit about 4 oz. Into the primary while tuning three 4k and up RPM range.  He would have to stop and drain the primary and fill the trans in the middle of the tune.  Whatever he did didn't completely stop the problem but it got where he can get through the whole tune without having any of this issue.

[metaliser]

Friend of mine spoke to a tech from HD in Milwaukee and he said they feel it's only occurring in most of the bikes while being tuned on the dyno. They also feel it's only on the earlier bikes. He said they think it's coming in through the clutch rod if that makes sense. Fix for it, not yet unless you replace the trans.
A guy at Smith Brothers HD (East Tn.) had his whole bike replaced due to this issue, he ran the trans dry 2 times before the 1000 mile service and the HD rep. asked what would make it right, so a new bike was giving.  Also the mother-ship took the trade in back to Milwaukee for inspection.   

[Durwood]

So HDF has notes now on injecting dye into the gearbox with the intention of identifying it in the primary oil. This was varified in HD Germany and the owner is getting a new gearbox. This the second time this has happened according to HDF notes. Steve Cole ran his test bike with the dip stick out and hole covered with a breathable cover. it made no difference to the condition.

Why would it. It's a mechanical fluid transfer, not a pressure transfer.
Ron

Steve called me today and this was brought up.  He did some testing and has made improvements on his bike but hasn't tested it on others yet.  He didn't eloborate nor did i ask what he did,  He just said that his bike was pushing all bit about 4 oz. Into the primary while tuning three 4k and up RPM range.  He would have to stop and drain the primary and fill the trans in the middle of the tune.  Whatever he did didn't completely stop the problem but it got where he can get through the whole tune without having any of this issue.

Now that's some serious fluid transfer.

Friend of mine spoke to a tech from HD in Milwaukee and he said they feel it's only occurring in most of the bikes while being tuned on the dyno. They also feel it's only on the earlier bikes. He said they think it's coming in through the clutch rod if that makes sense. Fix for it, not yet unless you replace the trans.
A guy at Smith Brothers HD (East Tn.) had his whole bike replaced due to this issue, he ran the trans dry 2 times before the 1000 mile service and the HD rep. asked what would make it right, so a new bike was giving.  Also the mother-ship took the trade in back to Milwaukee for inspection.   

Again, that's way more than I saw on mine, I had 18oz remaining in the trans after several tuning sessions with 250 max power runs and close to 2000 miles.

The more data the better.

[harleytuner]

So HDF has notes now on injecting dye into the gearbox with the intention of identifying it in the primary oil. This was varified in HD Germany and the owner is getting a new gearbox. This the second time this has happened according to HDF notes. Steve Cole ran his test bike with the dip stick out and hole covered with a breathable cover. it made no difference to the condition.

Why would it. It's a mechanical fluid transfer, not a pressure transfer.
Ron

Steve called me today and this was brought up.  He did some testing and has made improvements on his bike but hasn't tested it on others yet.  He didn't eloborate nor did i ask what he did,  He just said that his bike was pushing all bit about 4 oz. Into the primary while tuning three 4k and up RPM range.  He would have to stop and drain the primary and fill the trans in the middle of the tune.  Whatever he did didn't completely stop the problem but it got where he can get through the whole tune without having any of this issue.

Now that's some serious fluid transfer.

Friend of mine spoke to a tech from HD in Milwaukee and he said they feel it's only occurring in most of the bikes while being tuned on the dyno. They also feel it's only on the earlier bikes. He said they think it's coming in through the clutch rod if that makes sense. Fix for it, not yet unless you replace the trans.
A guy at Smith Brothers HD (East Tn.) had his whole bike replaced due to this issue, he ran the trans dry 2 times before the 1000 mile service and the HD rep. asked what would make it right, so a new bike was giving.  Also the mother-ship took the trade in back to Milwaukee for inspection.   

Again, that's way more than I saw on mine, I had 18oz remaining in the trans after several tuning sessions with 250 max power runs and close to 2000 miles.

The more data the better.

Remember,  Steve is developing calibrations not tuning. Big difference.  He's not just reving the bike through these RPM ranges,  he's holding them for extended times.  His bike's really take a beating for him to get us starting calibrations.

[rbabos]

So HDF has notes now on injecting dye into the gearbox with the intention of identifying it in the primary oil. This was varified in HD Germany and the owner is getting a new gearbox. This the second time this has happened according to HDF notes. Steve Cole ran his test bike with the dip stick out and hole covered with a breathable cover. it made no difference to the condition.

Why would it. It's a mechanical fluid transfer, not a pressure transfer.
Ron

Steve called me today and this was brought up.  He did some testing and has made improvements on his bike but hasn't tested it on others yet.  He didn't eloborate nor did i ask what he did,  He just said that his bike was pushing all bit about 4 oz. Into the primary while tuning three 4k and up RPM range.  He would have to stop and drain the primary and fill the trans in the middle of the tune.  Whatever he did didn't completely stop the problem but it got where he can get through the whole tune without having any of this issue.

Now that's some serious fluid transfer.

Friend of mine spoke to a tech from HD in Milwaukee and he said they feel it's only occurring in most of the bikes while being tuned on the dyno. They also feel it's only on the earlier bikes. He said they think it's coming in through the clutch rod if that makes sense. Fix for it, not yet unless you replace the trans.
A guy at Smith Brothers HD (East Tn.) had his whole bike replaced due to this issue, he ran the trans dry 2 times before the 1000 mile service and the HD rep. asked what would make it right, so a new bike was giving.  Also the mother-ship took the trade in back to Milwaukee for inspection.   

Again, that's way more than I saw on mine, I had 18oz remaining in the trans after several tuning sessions with 250 max power runs and close to 2000 miles.

The more data the better.

Agree. But it must be accurate data. If in fact Coles findings are dumping all but 4 ounces out of the gear box, I find it hard to believe this much transfer can happen in the space between the pushrod and hole in the main shaft unless the space is being force fed with oil since there will be some primary venting to the gear box preventing some of this directional flow.  Almost wants to make one pull the pushrod, plug the pushrod hole and feed about 2 psi in the gear box using the vent line and verify if pushrod is the sole source. More data. One hell of a leak in any case.
Ron

[PoorUB]

If the main gear inner seal leaks it leaks to the ground unless something has changed. I be only connection between the primary and transmission is the hollow main shaft.

[rbabos]

If the main gear inner seal leaks it leaks to the ground unless something has changed. I be only connection between the primary and transmission is the hollow main shaft.

You are right. I was thinking unclearly. Modified my post so I don't sound like a complete moron.
Ron

[Herko]

Remember,  Steve is developing calibrations not tuning. Big difference.  He's not just reving the bike through these RPM ranges,  he's holding them for extended times.  His bike's really take a beating for him to get us starting calibrations.

I can tell you with certainty that Durwood does not just drive through the RPM ranges.

Some may tune by just "hitting" a given parameter, this is their choice. Go for it.

There's a lot of steady state time spent in a crosscheck method during one of Durwood's normal tunes. This is a part of a disciplined process to get the bike in an excellent state of tune...throughout the full range of operational parameters.
There's even more (a lot more) steady state time on his personal bike during a development assessment.

Granted, Cole's "bike" may be more prone to transfer fluid. But I doubt that the workout to test a solution is much different or less of a beating.

[harleytuner]

Remember,  Steve is developing calibrations not tuning. Big difference.  He's not just reving the bike through these RPM ranges,  he's holding them for extended times.  His bike's really take a beating for him to get us starting calibrations.

I can tell you with certainty that Durwood does not just drive through the RPM ranges.

Some may tune by just "hitting" a given parameter, this is their choice. Go for it.

There's a lot of steady state time spent in a crosscheck method during one of Durwood's normal tunes. This is a part of a disciplined process to get the bike in an excellent state of tune...throughout the full range of operational parameters.
There's even more (a lot more) steady state time on his personal bike during a development assessment.

Granted, Cole's "bike" may be more prone to transfer fluid. But I doubt that the workout to test a solution is much different or less of a beating.

My post was in no way intended to criticize Durwoods method of tuning. Sorry you took it that way.

[HD/Wrench]

Herko You mean I just can't flash through the cells and call it good    I do not think many understand ow much time it takes and the process involved to get the tune right in all of the cells .

[harleytuner]

So HDF has notes now on injecting dye into the gearbox with the intention of identifying it in the primary oil. This was varified in HD Germany and the owner is getting a new gearbox. This the second time this has happened according to HDF notes. Steve Cole ran his test bike with the dip stick out and hole covered with a breathable cover. it made no difference to the condition.

Why would it. It's a mechanical fluid transfer, not a pressure transfer.
Ron

Steve called me today and this was brought up.  He did some testing and has made improvements on his bike but hasn't tested it on others yet.  He didn't eloborate nor did i ask what he did,  He just said that his bike was pushing all bit about 4 oz. Into the primary while tuning three 4k and up RPM range.  He would have to stop and drain the primary and fill the trans in the middle of the tune.  Whatever he did didn't completely stop the problem but it got where he can get through the whole tune without having any of this issue.

Now that's some serious fluid transfer.

Friend of mine spoke to a tech from HD in Milwaukee and he said they feel it's only occurring in most of the bikes while being tuned on the dyno. They also feel it's only on the earlier bikes. He said they think it's coming in through the clutch rod if that makes sense. Fix for it, not yet unless you replace the trans.
A guy at Smith Brothers HD (East Tn.) had his whole bike replaced due to this issue, he ran the trans dry 2 times before the 1000 mile service and the HD rep. asked what would make it right, so a new bike was giving.  Also the mother-ship took the trade in back to Milwaukee for inspection.   

Again, that's way more than I saw on mine, I had 18oz remaining in the trans after several tuning sessions with 250 max power runs and close to 2000 miles.

The more data the better.

Agree. But it must be accurate data. If in fact Coles findings are dumping all but 4 ounces out of the gear box, I find it hard to believe this much transfer can happen in the space between the pushrod and hole in the main shaft unless the space is being force fed with oil since there will be some primary venting to the gear box preventing some of this directional flow.  Almost wants to make one pull the pushrod, plug the pushrod hole and feed about 2 psi in the gear box using the vent line and verify if pushrod is the sole source. More data. One hell of a leak in any case.
Ron

He (Steve) Said that when he removes the derby cover south the bike upright on the dyno fluid dumps out.