M8 trans fluid leaking in primary

[fwj]

Hard to believe that HD didn't test the result of replacing the seal and the spacer before telling all dealers to change it. Sounds kind of unprofessional to me. Even a 2 man garage would work more systematically.

[Durwood]

I really don't know why someone don't vac test the primary on a problem child and once and for all rule out or confirm a seal issue. I don't own one so can't verify it myself. I still suspect possibly two areas. Venting, bearing drain or whatever as well as a source to multiply the oil transfer. The seal still seems to be a suspect area to me.
Ron

I had planned on it but haven't had another one in with the problem.  I posted about venting through the derby cover probably a month ago but it got passed over lol

It didn't get passed over, at least not by me. I was in the middle of testing the gasket modification and didn't have an extra derby cover at the moment, but I do now.

The "half split rule" is the easiest way to trouble shoot a problem. 

It's often a problem applying the rule to motorcycles, but in the case of oil migration trannie to primary it's straight forward IMO.

It's either the primary sucking it across OR the trannie pumping it across.

I'd bang a vent into the primary and then see if the migration continues, if yes then the trannie is pumping it, if no then the primary is sucking it.

NOTE: easy for me to say this as I've no access to an M8, yet

I have a derby cover coming to modify with a nipple to use my pressure/vacuum gauge to monitor what's going on while on the dyno.

I know you like your powervision Daren 
but a green TTS would be very useful for this

The Dynoware RT has the ability to run those sensors and graph them right on the dyno run. With the old WinPep 7 you could run up to 4 inputs on the graph through the analog box. The TTS green is nice if you have no dyno to use.

The green TTS is even better with the dyno
under controlled conditions
the pressure/vacuum gauge readings could be checked against any MAP and RPM values where migration may occur

I have Winpep 8 and as Eric alluded to it has 4 analog inputs that will do the job if necessary but I honestly don't think it's needed, I believe some simple testing while monitoring the gauge will tell us what we need to know. If not, I will procure a 0-5v sensor and use the Dynaware RT to sample the data.

[harleytuner]

I really don't know why someone don't vac test the primary on a problem child and once and for all rule out or confirm a seal issue. I don't own one so can't verify it myself. I still suspect possibly two areas. Venting, bearing drain or whatever as well as a source to multiply the oil transfer. The seal still seems to be a suspect area to me.
Ron

I had planned on it but haven't had another one in with the problem.  I posted about venting through the derby cover probably a month ago but it got passed over lol

It didn't get passed over, at least not by me. I was in the middle of testing the gasket modification and didn't have an extra derby cover at the moment, but I do now.

The "half split rule" is the easiest way to trouble shoot a problem. 

It's often a problem applying the rule to motorcycles, but in the case of oil migration trannie to primary it's straight forward IMO.

It's either the primary sucking it across OR the trannie pumping it across.

I'd bang a vent into the primary and then see if the migration continues, if yes then the trannie is pumping it, if no then the primary is sucking it.

NOTE: easy for me to say this as I've no access to an M8, yet

I have a derby cover coming to modify with a nipple to use my pressure/vacuum gauge to monitor what's going on while on the dyno.

I know you like your powervision Daren 
but a green TTS would be very useful for this

The Dynoware RT has the ability to run those sensors and graph them right on the dyno run. With the old WinPep 7 you could run up to 4 inputs on the graph through the analog box. The TTS green is nice if you have no dyno to use.

The green TTS is even better with the dyno
under controlled conditions
the pressure/vacuum gauge readings could be checked against any MAP and RPM values where migration may occur

I have Winpep 8 and as Eric alluded to it has 4 analog inputs that will do the job if necessary but I honestly don't think it's needed, I believe some simple testing while monitoring the gauge will tell us what we need to know. If not, I will procure a 0-5v sensor and use the Dynaware RT to sample the data.

Awesome,  I look forward to your results.  If you test it will you be putting the stock top gasket back on? Or issuing your modified one?   Seams like the best test would be in the state it was transferring the most.   

[98fxstc]

could test it both ways

Understand you are a busy man Daren
but no-one else is testing and sharing
I'm sure many appreciate your efforts   

[Sunny Jim]

Yes Darren, we are grateful for your efforts down here in OZ.

[steve2100]

Thanks for trying to figure this out some think they don't have this problem but i have seen people with 6,000 and then it starts.Mine does it sure hope the mods work anybody that has a m8 should thank you.

[96349]

So the MOCO is telling some dealers to replace the seal and the spacer thinking that the new M8 spacers may be tearing the gasket? If that were happening they must think the additional fluid in the primary must be coming from the crankcase.
So how would that explain why the transmissions are running low on fluid at the same time the primaries are filling up? Unless I am missing something here it sounds to me like the MOCO guys are lost in the woods and just fishing for things to try. Not good. I have not seen this detailed list they are giving to the dealers for things to rule out, but I wonder if they are even considering a venting problem with the cover gasket to be a possibility.

[harleytuner]

I believe the MoCo theory is/was the tear in the seal was allowing crankcase pressure to create a vacuum in the primary which in turn pulls the trans fluid through.   That was my point  venting the primary seperate to either prove this theory or disprove it.   Hopefully Darren will be able to test it,  I'm not sure when ill have another problem M8 in for a time to test it myself. Or if ill have the time to test even if i get one.

[WirgmanUSMC]

Well, after some spirited mountain riding and lots of high speed highway riding I checked my fluid last night. Barely touching the stick. I'm on my way home, I think I'm gonna keep the tranny topped off but not bother draining the primary that way I can bring it to HD when I get back and have them drain and measure themselves to see how much fluid is over there.
I'm ready for this problem to be gone. Probably gonna put the stock pipes and cleaner back on and flash back to stock before taking it in though. I don't wanna get screwed.

[mcm]

Wife and I went for a short ride a few days back.  She started getting a vibration and a lot of heat on the right side of her RK with less than 500 miles.  I rode it the last few miles home.  Bad vibration and cooked my leg.  Transmission just about dry and hot as hell.  Bike hasn't been on a dyno and she doesn't run high RPM.  Dealer has the bike.  I guess we'll see where it goes from here.

[Buglet]

      Here's something I found, same bike running spectro primary lube and 6 speed transmission lube it lost 6 oz. in a 1000 mi, run formula + in primary and transmission it lost 16 oz 1000 mi. Its on a 1000 mi trip now to get recheck. I'am also keeping track on another 17 FLHXS and two trikes.   

[rbabos]

I suspect if the seal is the issue it will have a side effect of more oil carry over to the breather as well, since the umbrellas can't do their job of controlling case pressures as effectively. The pistons upward travel instead of creating a slight negative pressure will have an air opening at the main seal, pull air and fluid from the main shaft/pushrod hole in the trans to the primary. This unwanted gulped air in the case increases the amount of air in the case on the piston down stroke that has to go through the head breathers that would normally not be there. Since the trans is vented, there would be no resistance for this fluid to travel in this direction. I suspect the main seal if defective would tend to seal better in one direction then the other for most of this to play out or the result would be engine oil transfer to the primary instead.
I feel for the guys with issues. Pay that kind of coin and have to go through this BS.
Ron

[Hossamania]

A friend of mine just bought a new RK. I really didn't want to tell him about this issue, but didn't want him blind sided by it either.
I'll keep tabs on his to see if it acts up.

[randyman]

Drained transmission got just under 24 OZ drained primary got 28 OZ.  Completely stock 2017 M8 at 1000 miles

[Buglet]

               Just did a 2106 FLHXS transmission down 16 oz. 500 miles. I have two more coming in in the next couple of days that I be checking.   

[96349]

I believe the MoCo theory is/was the tear in the seal was allowing crankcase pressure to create a vacuum in the primary which in turn pulls the trans fluid through.   That was my point  venting the primary seperate to either prove this theory or disprove it.   Hopefully Darren will be able to test it,  I'm not sure when ill have another problem M8 in for a time to test it myself. Or if ill have the time to test even if i get one.

Steve Cole mentioned that his dealer wanted to replace the seal and the new type spacer in his bike. After doing so he said it made no difference. He is still of the mind it is likely a transmission issue. He has modified his transmission as well as the transmission of a customer of his. At this point he is waiting for the customer to return from vacation with his modified bike and he will re-test it on his dyno. If that looks promising he said he would have to test it out on several bikes before he is ready to declare a "fix". So we are closer than we were back in May of this year, but no fix yet. Apparently the MOCO is clueless. They have just recently started having dealers go through a bunch of steps to test out some of their theories as to what is causing the fluid to move. Not too much feedback on that yet.

[harleytuner]

I believe the MoCo theory is/was the tear in the seal was allowing crankcase pressure to create a vacuum in the primary which in turn pulls the trans fluid through.   That was my point  venting the primary seperate to either prove this theory or disprove it.   Hopefully Darren will be able to test it,  I'm not sure when ill have another problem M8 in for a time to test it myself. Or if ill have the time to test even if i get one.

Steve Cole mentioned that his dealer wanted to replace the seal and the new type spacer in his bike. After doing so he said it made no difference. He is still of the mind it is likely a transmission issue. He has modified his transmission as well as the transmission of a customer of his. At this point he is waiting for the customer to return from vacation with his modified bike and he will re-test it on his dyno. If that looks promising he said he would have to test it out on several bikes before he is ready to declare a "fix". So we are closer than we were back in May of this year, but no fix yet. Apparently the MOCO is clueless. They have just recently started having dealers go through a bunch of steps to test out some of their theories as to what is causing the fluid to move. Not too much feedback on that yet.

Thanks,  I'm on ftequent contract worn Steve. His customer food check in south him a couple days back worn 4600 miles on his trip so far. Zero transfer with Steve's mod so far.

[Hossamania]

I believe the MoCo theory is/was the tear in the seal was allowing crankcase pressure to create a vacuum in the primary which in turn pulls the trans fluid through.   That was my point  venting the primary seperate to either prove this theory or disprove it.   Hopefully Darren will be able to test it,  I'm not sure when ill have another problem M8 in for a time to test it myself. Or if ill have the time to test even if i get one.

Steve Cole mentioned that his dealer wanted to replace the seal and the new type spacer in his bike. After doing so he said it made no difference. He is still of the mind it is likely a transmission issue. He has modified his transmission as well as the transmission of a customer of his. At this point he is waiting for the customer to return from vacation with his modified bike and he will re-test it on his dyno. If that looks promising he said he would have to test it out on several bikes before he is ready to declare a "fix". So we are closer than we were back in May of this year, but no fix yet. Apparently the MOCO is clueless. They have just recently started having dealers go through a bunch of steps to test out some of their theories as to what is causing the fluid to move. Not too much feedback on that yet.

Thanks,  I'm on ftequent contract worn Steve. His customer food check in south him a couple days back worn 4600 miles on his trip so far. Zero transfer with Steve's mod so far.

I figured out what you were saying, but you really have to double check your response before you post.      

[98fxstc]

his phone is on auto pilot Hoss   

[harleytuner]

My phone is a POS.  Siri hates me

[02roadcling]

I disabled both the Swipe feature and Autocorrect so I don't look like a 3rd grade dropout.

at lest if i skru up most guys can stil phigur out wut im tring to sae.

   cling

[rbabos]

I believe the MoCo theory is/was the tear in the seal was allowing crankcase pressure to create a vacuum in the primary which in turn pulls the trans fluid through.   That was my point  venting the primary seperate to either prove this theory or disprove it.   Hopefully Darren will be able to test it,  I'm not sure when ill have another problem M8 in for a time to test it myself. Or if ill have the time to test even if i get one.

Steve Cole mentioned that his dealer wanted to replace the seal and the new type spacer in his bike. After doing so he said it made no difference. He is still of the mind it is likely a transmission issue. He has modified his transmission as well as the transmission of a customer of his. At this point he is waiting for the customer to return from vacation with his modified bike and he will re-test it on his dyno. If that looks promising he said he would have to test it out on several bikes before he is ready to declare a "fix". So we are closer than we were back in May of this year, but no fix yet. Apparently the MOCO is clueless. They have just recently started having dealers go through a bunch of steps to test out some of their theories as to what is causing the fluid to move. Not too much feedback on that yet.

Not at all. Like I said, the longer they play dumb, the more money they save. Worst case, the warranty runs out but I bet they will have a fix, on your dime of course. Now if the 2018s have this issue, your statement will be correct.
Ron
Ron
Ron

[Pete_Vit]

My phone is a POS.  Siri hates me

Siri hates my wife, she fights (curses) with her all the time, it's fun to watch, next time get Siri to take to Siri 

[04 SE Deuce]

I believe the MoCo theory is/was the tear in the seal was allowing crankcase pressure to create a vacuum in the primary which in turn pulls the trans fluid through.   That was my point  venting the primary seperate to either prove this theory or disprove it.   Hopefully Darren will be able to test it,  I'm not sure when ill have another problem M8 in for a time to test it myself. Or if ill have the time to test even if i get one.

Steve Cole mentioned that his dealer wanted to replace the seal and the new type spacer in his bike. After doing so he said it made no difference. He is still of the mind it is likely a transmission issue. He has modified his transmission as well as the transmission of a customer of his. At this point he is waiting for the customer to return from vacation with his modified bike and he will re-test it on his dyno. If that looks promising he said he would have to test it out on several bikes before he is ready to declare a "fix". So we are closer than we were back in May of this year, but no fix yet. Apparently the MOCO is clueless. They have just recently started having dealers go through a bunch of steps to test out some of their theories as to what is causing the fluid to move. Not too much feedback on that yet.

Not at all. Like I said, the longer they play dumb, the more money they save. Worst case, the warranty runs out but I bet they will have a fix, on your dime of course. Now if the 2018s have this issue, your statement will be correct.
Ron
Ron
Ron

I have an absolute cure but it's timing sensitive...don't buy one until they get the basic bugs worked out.

Figuring out what is pushing or pulling fluid from one cavity to another should be easier than most grade school science fair
projects.

One thing about it if you pack the primary full of fluid the compensator should get lubed better.

At least posts stating this is a made up internet problem and not reality have stopped.

[96349]

I believe the MoCo theory is/was the tear in the seal was allowing crankcase pressure to create a vacuum in the primary which in turn pulls the trans fluid through.   That was my point  venting the primary seperate to either prove this theory or disprove it.   Hopefully Darren will be able to test it,  I'm not sure when ill have another problem M8 in for a time to test it myself. Or if ill have the time to test even if i get one.

After your explanation I understand. It sounds kind of far out though. At this point I guess they are trying to rule out everything.