M8 trans fluid leaking in primary

[rigidthumper]

A small thing to remember: the majority of folks either aren't having an issue, or unaware an issue exists- most folks shift @ 3K, and never go above 80 MPH, so they don't have transfer issues.
My bet? There's many more happy riders that never get heard from, than unhappy riders. Of the unhappy riders, who are having issues, I'd guess less than 10% actually change brands.

[rbabos]

A small thing to remember: the majority of folks either aren't having an issue, or unaware an issue exists- most folks shift @ 3K, and never go above 80 MPH, so they don't have transfer issues.
My bet? There's many more happy riders that never get heard from, than unhappy riders. Of the unhappy riders, who are having issues, I'd guess less than 10% actually change brands.

True, unaware describes it best. Most HD riders I've talked to don't even know what a compensator is. MoCo's favorite customers. Us gearheads must really piss them off.
Ron

[rigidthumper]

"Us gearheads must really piss them off."
No doubt in my feeble mind!

[chinashop bull]

A small thing to remember: the majority of folks either aren't having an issue, or unaware an issue exists- most folks shift @ 3K, and never go above 80 MPH, so they don't have transfer issues.
My bet? There's many more happy riders that never get heard from, than unhappy riders. Of the unhappy riders, who are having issues, I'd guess less than 10% actually change brands.

True, unaware describes it best. Most HD riders I've talked to don't even know what a compensator is. MoCo's favorite customers. Us gearheads must really piss them off.
Ron

I love these elitist comments. Why should the average rider care what powers their bikes as long as it works?

[98fxstc]

A small thing to remember: the majority of folks either aren't having an issue, or unaware an issue exists- most folks shift @ 3K, and never go above 80 MPH, so they don't have transfer issues.
My bet? There's many more happy riders that never get heard from, than unhappy riders. Of the unhappy riders, who are having issues, I'd guess less than 10% actually change brands.

True, unaware describes it best. Most HD riders I've talked to don't even know what a compensator is. MoCo's favorite customers. Us gearheads must really piss them off.
Ron

I love these elitist comments. Why should the average rider care what powers their bikes as long as it works?

You lost ?
This is a tech site
Most guys don't care what makes their bike run
some do
and the tech minds on this site are a lot closer to solving the transmission fluid transfer than the Moco who prefer that the masses don't understand enough to threaten the bottom line

Grab another KoolAid 

[Will-Run]

 

[rbabos]

Well, it was his first post here. We can forgive him once, but only once.
Ron

[SLAATY]

I believe that Eric and FSG have the right idea..If the oil doesn't accumulate there is nothing to transfer. I am trying this next.

Glad to see YOURE willing to try it. I'm gutless when it comes to drilling holes in tranny cases.

Please forward results.

[SLAATY]

A small thing to remember: the majority of folks either aren't having an issue, or unaware an issue exists- most folks shift @ 3K, and never go above 80 MPH, so they don't have transfer issues.
My bet? There's many more happy riders that never get heard from, than unhappy riders. Of the unhappy riders, who are having issues, I'd guess less than 10% actually change brands.

True, unaware describes it best. Most HD riders I've talked to don't even know what a compensator is. MoCo's favorite customers. Us gearheads must really piss them off.
Ron

I love these elitist comments. Why should the average rider care what powers their bikes as long as it works?

Because for many of us, the ability to repair a bike was requisite to owning one. Ever broke down in the middle of nowhere? Probably not...

[HV]

Just a quick update on the two bikes we found with transfer Issues.....Replaced the Crank Seal and sleeve as per HD TA0022  and after re checking both bikes with more Mileage on them both seem to be OK now ....we still are checking bikes in for services but our riding season here is getting shorter

[rigidthumper]

Just a quick update on the two bikes we found with transfer Issues.....Replaced the Crank Seal and sleeve as per HD TA0022  and after re checking both bikes with more Mileage on them both seem to be OK now ....we still are checking bikes in for services but our riding season here is getting shorter

Brian, are these 2016 bikes or 2017 models?

[Durwood]

Just a quick update on the two bikes we found with transfer Issues.....Replaced the Crank Seal and sleeve as per HD TA0022  and after re checking both bikes with more Mileage on them both seem to be OK now ....we still are checking bikes in for services but our riding season here is getting shorter

I was going to try this, but the replacement seal and sleeve have the same part number as the original and supposedly some guys had this done and their problem still remains.

Thanks for posting HV.

[harleytuner]

Just a quick update on the two bikes we found with transfer Issues.....Replaced the Crank Seal and sleeve as per HD TA0022  and after re checking both bikes with more Mileage on them both seem to be OK now ....we still are checking bikes in for services but our riding season here is getting shorter

I was going to try this, but the replacement seal and sleeve have the same part number as the original and supposedly some guys had this done and their problem still remains.

Thanks for posting HV.

The replacement spacer has a bevel on it as to not tear the seal.  That's the only difference.  A lot have reported no change in migration after the change,  at least on M8's.  It seams to be a good fix in some of the Rushmores

[14GuineaPig]

If the transfer of oil is caused by vacuum in primary, which seems to be the reason for replacing the seal & spacer, why not try venting the primary independent of the transmission?  From what I have read it sounds like transmission oil is being pulled thru the center of the transmission shaft where the clutch pushrod resides.  Apparently the MoCo feels that a vacuum is created by the engine, and if the seal is damaged, a vacuum exists in the primary.  AFAIK the primary is vented thru the transmission shaft and a vent in the top of the transmission.  If oil were to accumulate inside the transmission, around the open end of the shaft, then oil could be sucked into the primary if a vacuum existed.  My guess would be that if the primary was vented, that vacuum would no longer pull the oil.
On the other hand, if the oil is actually being pumped/forced thru the shaft by the clutch actuator, then venting the primary would not solve the problem.  JMO

[harleytuner]

If the transfer of oil is caused by vacuum in primary, which seems to be the reason for replacing the seal & spacer, why not try venting the primary independent of the transmission?  From what I have read it sounds like transmission oil is being pulled thru the center of the transmission shaft where the clutch pushrod resides.  Apparently the MoCo feels that a vacuum is created by the engine, and if the seal is damaged, a vacuum exists in the primary.  AFAIK the primary is vented thru the transmission shaft and a vent in the top of the transmission.  If oil were to accumulate inside the transmission, around the open end of the shaft, then oil could be sucked into the primary if a vacuum existed.  My guess would be that if the primary was vented, that vacuum would no longer pull the oil.
On the other hand, if the oil is actually being pumped/forced thru the shaft by the clutch actuator, then venting the primary would not solve the problem.  JMO

It would be an easy test, but not very feasible of a fix for the MoCo

[1FSTRK]

If the transfer of oil is caused by vacuum in primary, which seems to be the reason for replacing the seal & spacer, why not try venting the primary independent of the transmission?  From what I have read it sounds like transmission oil is being pulled thru the center of the transmission shaft where the clutch pushrod resides.  Apparently the MoCo feels that a vacuum is created by the engine, and if the seal is damaged, a vacuum exists in the primary.  AFAIK the primary is vented thru the transmission shaft and a vent in the top of the transmission.  If oil were to accumulate inside the transmission, around the open end of the shaft, then oil could be sucked into the primary if a vacuum existed.  My guess would be that if the primary was vented, that vacuum would no longer pull the oil.
On the other hand, if the oil is actually being pumped/forced thru the shaft by the clutch actuator, then venting the primary would not solve the problem.  JMO

It would be an easy test, but not very feasible of a fix for the MoCo

Fast test would be go to your local (fill in the blank) auto parts and buy a cheap PCV valve. Stick it on the trans vent hose so it can blow out but not suck in. Fixed

[HV]

Both 2017s    spacer is an updated one they say 

[harleytuner]

If the transfer of oil is caused by vacuum in primary, which seems to be the reason for replacing the seal & spacer, why not try venting the primary independent of the transmission?  From what I have read it sounds like transmission oil is being pulled thru the center of the transmission shaft where the clutch pushrod resides.  Apparently the MoCo feels that a vacuum is created by the engine, and if the seal is damaged, a vacuum exists in the primary.  AFAIK the primary is vented thru the transmission shaft and a vent in the top of the transmission.  If oil were to accumulate inside the transmission, around the open end of the shaft, then oil could be sucked into the primary if a vacuum existed.  My guess would be that if the primary was vented, that vacuum would no longer pull the oil.
On the other hand, if the oil is actually being pumped/forced thru the shaft by the clutch actuator, then venting the primary would not solve the problem.  JMO

It would be an easy test, but not very feasible of a fix for the MoCo

Fast test would be go to your local (fill in the blank) auto parts and buy a cheap PCV valve. Stick it on the trans vent hose so it can blow out but not suck in. Fixed

I stayed before that you could easily drill and tap a hole in a,derby cover, barbed fitting and vinyl tube and separately vent the primary.  I'll try it when i get another one in with a known transfer issue.   It still wouldn't be very particle for HD to go that route if it's a fix.  They'll be looking for a cheaper fix.  Or they'll just raise the spec of the acceptable transfer amount.  Right now they are saying a,transfer of 5 oz. In 5k miles is, within spec.

[PoorUB]

Yep, just vent the primary on its own and I bet the problem will go away.

[04 SE Deuce]

When cranks are out of spec. or oil will not stay in a given compartment change/raise the spec.

I sure wish that mentality would end up costing the MOCO more than a proper fix.

[harleytuner]

When cranks are out of spec. or oil will not stay in a given compartment change/raise the spec.

I sure wish that mentality would end up costing the MOCO more than a proper fix.

If you are HD and you answer to your stock holders you care about 7,000-10,000 miles.  Thais the average mileage a HD rider puts in his bike in 2 years in the US.  If they can get parts to last 20k miles they are ahead of the game financially.   

[1FSTRK]

If the transfer of oil is caused by vacuum in primary, which seems to be the reason for replacing the seal & spacer, why not try venting the primary independent of the transmission?  From what I have read it sounds like transmission oil is being pulled thru the center of the transmission shaft where the clutch pushrod resides.  Apparently the MoCo feels that a vacuum is created by the engine, and if the seal is damaged, a vacuum exists in the primary.  AFAIK the primary is vented thru the transmission shaft and a vent in the top of the transmission.  If oil were to accumulate inside the transmission, around the open end of the shaft, then oil could be sucked into the primary if a vacuum existed.  My guess would be that if the primary was vented, that vacuum would no longer pull the oil.
On the other hand, if the oil is actually being pumped/forced thru the shaft by the clutch actuator, then venting the primary would not solve the problem.  JMO

It would be an easy test, but not very feasible of a fix for the MoCo

Fast test would be go to your local (fill in the blank) auto parts and buy a cheap PCV valve. Stick it on the trans vent hose so it can blow out but not suck in. Fixed

I stayed before that you could easily drill and tap a hole in a,derby cover, barbed fitting and vinyl tube and separately vent the primary.  I'll try it when i get another one in with a known transfer issue.   It still wouldn't be very particle for HD to go that route if it's a fix.  They'll be looking for a cheaper fix.  Or they'll just raise the spec of the acceptable transfer amount.  Right now they are saying a,transfer of 5 oz. In 5k miles is, within spec.

I was just sugesting a quick cheap test method without altering parts on the bike.
I think the PCV valve test would show that the fliud would still transfer, I stand by the idea that the fluid is running down the MS because it is trapped in the clutch piston compartment and cannot drain low enough, fast enough back out to the transmission case. The pressure difference may exist but lacks any real air flow to transfer heavy fliud from one compartment to another in the time and volume seen here.

[harleytuner]

If the transfer of oil is caused by vacuum in primary, which seems to be the reason for replacing the seal & spacer, why not try venting the primary independent of the transmission?  From what I have read it sounds like transmission oil is being pulled thru the center of the transmission shaft where the clutch pushrod resides.  Apparently the MoCo feels that a vacuum is created by the engine, and if the seal is damaged, a vacuum exists in the primary.  AFAIK the primary is vented thru the transmission shaft and a vent in the top of the transmission.  If oil were to accumulate inside the transmission, around the open end of the shaft, then oil could be sucked into the primary if a vacuum existed.  My guess would be that if the primary was vented, that vacuum would no longer pull the oil.
On the other hand, if the oil is actually being pumped/forced thru the shaft by the clutch actuator, then venting the primary would not solve the problem.  JMO

It would be an easy test, but not very feasible of a fix for the MoCo

Fast test would be go to your local (fill in the blank) auto parts and buy a cheap PCV valve. Stick it on the trans vent hose so it can blow out but not suck in. Fixed

I stayed before that you could easily drill and tap a hole in a,derby cover, barbed fitting and vinyl tube and separately vent the primary.  I'll try it when i get another one in with a known transfer issue.   It still wouldn't be very particle for HD to go that route if it's a fix.  They'll be looking for a cheaper fix.  Or they'll just raise the spec of the acceptable transfer amount.  Right now they are saying a,transfer of 5 oz. In 5k miles is, within spec.

I was just sugesting a quick cheap test method without altering parts on the bike.
I think the PCV valve test would show that the fliud would still transfer, I stand by the idea that the fluid is running down the MS because it is trapped in the clutch piston compartment and cannot drain low enough, fast enough back out to the transmission case. The pressure difference may exist but lacks any real air flow to transfer heavy fliud from one compartment to another in the time and volume seen here.

I completely agree.   

[rbabos]

If the transfer of oil is caused by vacuum in primary, which seems to be the reason for replacing the seal & spacer, why not try venting the primary independent of the transmission?  From what I have read it sounds like transmission oil is being pulled thru the center of the transmission shaft where the clutch pushrod resides.  Apparently the MoCo feels that a vacuum is created by the engine, and if the seal is damaged, a vacuum exists in the primary.  AFAIK the primary is vented thru the transmission shaft and a vent in the top of the transmission.  If oil were to accumulate inside the transmission, around the open end of the shaft, then oil could be sucked into the primary if a vacuum existed.  My guess would be that if the primary was vented, that vacuum would no longer pull the oil.
On the other hand, if the oil is actually being pumped/forced thru the shaft by the clutch actuator, then venting the primary would not solve the problem.  JMO

It would be an easy test, but not very feasible of a fix for the MoCo

Fast test would be go to your local (fill in the blank) auto parts and buy a cheap PCV valve. Stick it on the trans vent hose so it can blow out but not suck in. Fixed

PCV valves are not sealed one way as many think. There's a calibrated leak on the closed side, based on the engine it's designed for.
Ron

[1FSTRK]

If the transfer of oil is caused by vacuum in primary, which seems to be the reason for replacing the seal & spacer, why not try venting the primary independent of the transmission?  From what I have read it sounds like transmission oil is being pulled thru the center of the transmission shaft where the clutch pushrod resides.  Apparently the MoCo feels that a vacuum is created by the engine, and if the seal is damaged, a vacuum exists in the primary.  AFAIK the primary is vented thru the transmission shaft and a vent in the top of the transmission.  If oil were to accumulate inside the transmission, around the open end of the shaft, then oil could be sucked into the primary if a vacuum existed.  My guess would be that if the primary was vented, that vacuum would no longer pull the oil.
On the other hand, if the oil is actually being pumped/forced thru the shaft by the clutch actuator, then venting the primary would not solve the problem.  JMO

It would be an easy test, but not very feasible of a fix for the MoCo

Fast test would be go to your local (fill in the blank) auto parts and buy a cheap PCV valve. Stick it on the trans vent hose so it can blow out but not suck in. Fixed

PCV valves are not sealed one way as many think. There's a calibrated leak on the closed side, based on the engine it's designed for.
Ron

Yes but it will work to change air flow in enough to confirm if the engine is pulling the oil from the trans.