M8 trans fluid leaking in primary

[hd06]

 Don't forget a little bit of Pixie Dust.

[1FSTRK]

Has anyone figured out what is different between these and the last twin cam parts?
The trans and primary have been connected in this fashion for a long time, the pressures should not have changed and with the trans having the vent I would think pressure from the primary would push fluid the other direction.

I would think it is a mechanical action sending fluid down the clutch rod and that comparing parts from the previous design would show what is causing it. Anyone have pictures of some actual pieces?

The size of the primary has changed. The space to build pressure has been decreased. Hence the new slimmer primary design jmo.

Yes the primary size is different but it was not pressurized before and it is not pressurized now so what is the point of your post?

[50Panhead]

Just for the Record. I had 10oz transfer that was at 15,000 miles on the odometer.
Last change a month ago at 20,000 on the odometer I only had 3.5 oz transfer.
Only thing I did different is how I shift. Starting out I pull the clutch completely in.
Shifting between gears I only compress the clutch as much as it needs. Most times 1/4 to 1/3 movement of the lever.

I still say its a pumping action when depressing the clutch.

ps. the dealer just did the recall on the clutch actuator.   
They were going to forward my oil findings to the company.

[1FSTRK]

Just for the Record. I had 10oz transfer that was at 15,000 miles on the odometer.
Last change a month ago at 20,000 on the odometer I only had 3.5 oz transfer.
Only thing I did different is how I shift. Starting out I pull the clutch completely in.
Shifting between gears I only compress the clutch as much as it needs. Most times 1/4 to 1/3 movement of the lever.

I still say its a pumping action when depressing the clutch.

ps. the dealer just did the recall on the clutch actuator.   
They were going to forward my oil findings to the company.

It is a great theory but with one bike one time nothing is conclusive. Now add to the mix all the other bikes ridden all different ways and they still sump and it becomes evident that the clutch action actually pumping the fluid through is really not a viable option.

[Hossamania]

Just for the Record. I had 10oz transfer that was at 15,000 miles on the odometer.
Last change a month ago at 20,000 on the odometer I only had 3.5 oz transfer.
Only thing I did different is how I shift. Starting out I pull the clutch completely in.
Shifting between gears I only compress the clutch as much as it needs. Most times 1/4 to 1/3 movement of the lever.

I still say its a pumping action when depressing the clutch.

ps. the dealer just did the recall on the clutch actuator.   
They were going to forward my oil findings to the company.

It is a great theory but with one bike one time nothing is conclusive. Now add to the mix all the other bikes ridden all different ways and they still sump and it becomes evident that the clutch action actually pumping the fluid through is really not a viable option.

Maybe if 50Panhead can repeat the sumping by using full clutch action again, that might lead to a possible clue.

[50Panhead]

Just for the Record. I had 10oz transfer that was at 15,000 miles on the odometer.
Last change a month ago at 20,000 on the odometer I only had 3.5 oz transfer.
Only thing I did different is how I shift. Starting out I pull the clutch completely in.
Shifting between gears I only compress the clutch as much as it needs. Most times 1/4 to 1/3 movement of the lever.



I still say its a pumping action when depressing the clutch.

ps. the dealer just did the recall on the clutch actuator.   
They were going to forward my oil findings to the company.

It is a great theory but with one bike one time nothing is conclusive. Now add to the mix all the other bikes ridden all different ways and they still sump and it becomes evident that the clutch action actually pumping the fluid through is really not a viable option.

Maybe if 50Panhead can repeat the sumping by using full clutch action again, that might lead to a possible clue.

Are you calling the oil transfer Sumping?? I thought that was a different issue with the Oil cooled models.
I'm riding a 2017 Limited just for record.
If you think about it, just how many times do you think you operate the clutch in 5000 miles. 1,000 maybe 5,000 times? I'd bet it more than that.  If just 1/2 drop of oil is pushed along the pushrod every time that adds up. There are 591.47 drop of water in a Ounce by the way.  In my way of thinking after 1000 times of of operating  the clutch one would move 1 oz of oil. In my normal ride to work I estimate I use the clutch somewhere around 70 to 80 times just to get there. It adds up faster than one thinks. The dealer has sent in my findings to HD. We are waiting to hear back from them.

[1FSTRK]

Just for the Record. I had 10oz transfer that was at 15,000 miles on the odometer.
Last change a month ago at 20,000 on the odometer I only had 3.5 oz transfer.
Only thing I did different is how I shift. Starting out I pull the clutch completely in.
Shifting between gears I only compress the clutch as much as it needs. Most times 1/4 to 1/3 movement of the lever.



I still say its a pumping action when depressing the clutch.

ps. the dealer just did the recall on the clutch actuator.   
They were going to forward my oil findings to the company.

It is a great theory but with one bike one time nothing is conclusive. Now add to the mix all the other bikes ridden all different ways and they still sump transfer and it becomes evident that the clutch action actually pumping the fluid through is really not a viable option.

Maybe if 50Panhead can repeat the sumping by using full clutch action again, that might lead to a possible clue.

Are you calling the oil transfer Sumping?? I thought that was a different issue with the Oil cooled models.
I'm riding a 2017 Limited just for record.
If you think about it, just how many times do you think you operate the clutch in 5000 miles. 1,000 maybe 5,000 times? I'd bet it more than that.  If just 1/2 drop of oil is pushed along the pushrod every time that adds up. There are 591.47 drop of water in a Ounce by the way.  In my way of thinking after 1000 times of of operating  the clutch one would move 1 oz of oil. In my normal ride to work I estimate I use the clutch somewhere around 70 to 80 times just to get there. It adds up faster than one thinks. The dealer has sent in my findings to HD. We are waiting to hear back from them.

You are correct, I should have said transfer not sump they are two different problems.
The rest of my statement still stands, everything you say is true but when you look at all the data you will see that bikes that transfer on the dyno do it with less than a dozen shifts and others have reported many oz's of transfer with mostly highway miles and limited shifting. For the clutch pumping theory to be the cause you would need to see a direct correlation between the number of clutch pulls and the amount of fluid transferred on most if not all bikes and there are too many cases where that does not happen.

[rigidthumper]

The clutch idea was tested when this first showed up, on a bike that had exhibited transfer worse than some. All he had to do to make it transfer was stay in second gear @ 50 MPH for about 10 minutes ( 5 minutes down, turn around, 5 minutes back, clutch only touched leaving the shop and pulling back in). That bike could transfer 18-20 ounces in a half hour if you wanted to.

[50Panhead]

The clutch idea was tested when this first showed up, on a bike that had exhibited transfer worse than some. All he had to do to make it transfer was stay in second gear @ 50 MPH for about 10 minutes ( 5 minutes down, turn around, 5 minutes back, clutch only touched leaving the shop and pulling back in). That bike could transfer 18-20 ounces in a half hour if you wanted to.

That is some brutal RPMs.  Oil has to be doing some serious churning.  Kind of hard to get your mind on just want is going on inside   I'll retire my idea or thoughts.    You know my old Panhead looses more oil on the ground than what these transfer.   I don't know why I'm concerned anyway.

[Hossamania]

The clutch idea was tested when this first showed up, on a bike that had exhibited transfer worse than some. All he had to do to make it transfer was stay in second gear @ 50 MPH for about 10 minutes ( 5 minutes down, turn around, 5 minutes back, clutch only touched leaving the shop and pulling back in). That bike could transfer 18-20 ounces in a half hour if you wanted to.

That is some brutal RPMs.  Oil has to be doing some serious churning.  Kind of hard to get your mind on just want is going on inside   I'll retire my idea or thoughts.    You know my old Panhead looses more oil on the ground than what these transfer.   I don't know why I'm concerned anyway.

The rpms are high in second gear at 50 mph, but it should not transfer fluid at any rpms for any amount of time. It should have other issues long before that happens.

[Durwood]

I have the centrifugal seal prototype done, the long bushing goes inside the tunnel about a half inch, it's a press fit in the transmission main shaft tunnel. You can see how it is tapered down to a snug fit on the push rod. this is before it is installed in the tunnel.



The clutch push rod moves freely in the bushing, and there is enough room for it to vent, but it is snug. It is tapered from one end to the other although that is hard to see in a photo.
The short 1/4 inch bushing on the end of the shaft is a slinger that will stop the oil from migrating down the push rod into the tunnel. The short slinger is press fit on the push rod so that once installed will not move.



You can see the tapper is enough so that the slinger can go inside the tapered bushing if necessary when the clutch is depressed and give you an idea of how much the bushing is tapered.



This is what it will look like when long tapered bushing is installed in the shaft tunnel and about where the slinger would run in relation to the end of the shaft.
In theory the slinger will keep oil from moving down the push rod into the tunnel and the spinning shaft with the tapered bushing inside will push any oil out of the shaft tunnel acting as a centrifugal seal.
Here is how the centrifugal force pushes the oil back out of the main shaft tunnel.

Just a heads up. I installed this in my bike about 500 miles ago and it is working thus far, zero transfer.

It has been on the dyno and ran very hard on the road.

I have heard of the larger diameter push rod, this is just another way to get there.

[Sunny Jim]

A ridiculous thought bubble! Could you not solder the push rod end in the required area and machine it down to the appropriate size? Or bronze perhaps?

[DTTJGlide]

Looks good, how much was it transferring before the install?

[Durwood]

Looks good, how much was it transferring before the install?

About 5oz in 1000 miles.

[Maddo Snr]

I've just bought a '19 and have read this thread, wow, like War and Peace.

What I can't ascertain is whether the trans is pumping oil into the primary, or capillary action is drawing oil into the primary.

Assuming it's a pumping action, it's fighting the natural vent-air flow which is going in the opposite direction on the shaft.

My first mod will be to install a primary vent and primary dipstick (I made one for my Twin Cam). If the transfer of oil is worse with the primary vented its definitely pumping.

Every bike or car has their foibles, there's enough brains-trust on
HTT to lick this.

[hd06]

 Try venting the primary drill,tap a 1/4 pipe thread. Put a hose run it up the frame and down a couple inches. That fixed mine and I been having trouble since day one, What do you have to lose a little transmission fluid.   

[1FSTRK]

So it is sucking air in the hose instead of trans fluid through the mainshaft, I am curious where  all that air is going?

[Maddo Snr]

Try venting the primary drill,tap a 1/4 pipe thread. Put a hose run it up the frame and down a couple inches. That fixed mine and I been having trouble since day one, What do you have to lose a little transmission fluid.   

I was thinking of joining my primary vent to the gearbox hat. That way I can be sure the box and primary have the same pressurisation. When I do my dyno pulls I'll put low pressure guages on both the primary and gearbox. I firstly want to eliminate gearbox turbidity as a cause.

Whilst the gearbox runs slightly less oil load than the primary, its void is way smaller and it's oil load is more viscous (if using 85W140 etc). This will cause greater turbidity and pressure build up in the gearbox than a chain rolling in 20W50.

If we can eliminate mechanical pumping or capillary transfer we've halved the search straight away...

[FSG]

It's been my opinion from day one that the gears in the trannie are thrusting oil through the mainshaft bearing and into the slave cylinder cavity.  With few easy paths for the oil to go to get back into the trannie the easy option is through the mainshaft and into the primary.

I don't have a M8 but some of the pix I've posted indicate what I'd do if I had one.

[Maddo Snr]

It's been my opinion from day one that the gears in the trannie are thrusting oil through the mainshaft bearing and into the slave cylinder cavity.  With few easy paths for the oil to go to get back into the trannie the easy option is through the mainshaft and into the primary.

I don't have a M8 but some of the pix I've posted indicate what I'd do if I had one.

It's a decent assessment Gaz, given that very similarly engineered bikes with cable clutches didn't do it, and as far as I'm aware, Softail IIs don't do it.

[Billy]

I'm mot sure how this is suppose to eliminate the transfer, guy brought it to me to install. Looks like 3/8 CRS tapered on the ends then cut flat

Anyone have any experience with this? Thoughts?

[HD/Wrench]

its all over FB and the guy is on one page where EVERY day he posts about how the recall is not the fix his is , it has a patent on it .. I am thinking he means patent pending ,   I have read where they claim " they who ever they are" stopped the transfer .

Test it out let me know if it really works ..

[rbabos]

I'm mot sure how this is suppose to eliminate the transfer, guy brought it to me to install. Looks like 3/8 CRS tapered on the ends then cut flat

Anyone have any experience with this? Thoughts?

Sorry , couldn't resist. I'm sure increasing the space around the tube will reduce flow.
Ron

[PoorUB]

I'm mot sure how this is suppose to eliminate the transfer, guy brought it to me to install. Looks like 3/8 CRS tapered on the ends then cut flat

Anyone have any experience with this? Thoughts?

Sorry , couldn't resist. I'm sure increasing the space around the tube will reduce flow.
Ron

Ron, don't feel bad, I don't get it either!

[rbabos]

I'm mot sure how this is suppose to eliminate the transfer, guy brought it to me to install. Looks like 3/8 CRS tapered on the ends then cut flat

Anyone have any experience with this? Thoughts?

Sorry , couldn't resist. I'm sure increasing the space around the tube will reduce flow.
Ron

Ron, don't feel bad, I don't get it either!

At least twist the damn thing into a screw so it can pretend to pull oil back into the gear box. Whoops, shouldn't give any ideas away.
Ron