M8 trans fluid leaking in primary

[hd06]

   

[Nastytls]

air vent filters work bi-directionally

https://skarke.de/en/products/air-vent-filters/air-vent-filter-series-bef-bed

MX bike vent valves certainly do not.

I used a YZ250 vent hose and valve attached to a KTM250SX flange.

To test we used a new primary gasket with Hylomar coating both sides and sealed the cross-shaft vent with 2x O'rings

On the dyno we saw the primary air pressure get to 5/6 psi and after bleeding it developed 8-9" of vac.

We've fitted the mod to the problem bike and it's done 500 miles now with the primary level sitting constant at 1/2" below the derby hole notch.

One bike proves very little but it was a bad transferer.

As an aside...I did a viscosity test on a new container of Formula+ and it tested 75W at 77 degrees F. I thought it was 50W?

How do you feel about the pressure readings that you've found?  Are they in line with what you thought you'd find, or are the different?

Also, what do you mean by "after bleeding".

[hogsty]

You may want to ask your mate about thermal expansion of the fluid as well. 

The direction this thread has taken seems like the most plausible explanation, especially given that a Harley rep knew it off the top of his head.  If this is indeed the solution I would prefer a more pretty setup, with a painted 90 degree fitting or something.

[IronButt70]

If venting is the fix why has this issue been so prevalent with the M8 hydraulic clutch bikes and not other/older models? Just curious.

[hd06]

  Maddo Snr just curious If you put a vacuum gage in place of the vent on the transmission when you do the pulls on a dyno if there is a vacuum. Thinking if so this could be when the transfer is taking place.   Just a thought   

[Maddo Snr]

If venting is the fix why has this issue been so prevalent with the M8 hydraulic clutch bikes and not other/older models? Just curious.

The manual clutch has a void of about 200cc  in the hollow door cover which would act as an attenuator to vac/pressure fluctuations. The hyd clutch's diaphragm design actuality seals the RHS of the venting valley directly to the gearboxes' oil load.

Why older hyd clutches didn't transfer seems to be down to the design of the S/C housing which didn't directly seal the cross-shaft void to the oil load. It vented a lot better is my assessment.

I have a RSD hyd cover and S/C on order which I'll fit to the M8 and test. That'll prove whether the older design negates the issue.

On my own bike, as well as HD06s vent kit I've also milled a bleed path from the gearbox side of the S/C housing directly to the gearboxes' air void. The intention being that if the primary does go into vacuum, it sucks air rather than oil.

HD06: I left the box vent standard during testing so as to not affect the test. The box vent sits above the gearboxes' oil load. The transfer is occurring out of the oil load with the void above at atmo. I seriously doubt that gearbox pressure is an issue. There's a sizeable air void in the box and it's vented to atmo.

[IronButt70]

If venting is the fix why has this issue been so prevalent with the M8 hydraulic clutch bikes and not other/older models? Just curious.

The manual clutch has a void of about 200cc  in the hollow door cover which would act as an attenuator to vac/pressure fluctuations. The hyd clutch's diaphragm design actuality seals the RHS of the venting valley directly to the gearboxes' oil load.

Why older hyd clutches didn't transfer seems to be down to the design of the S/C housing which didn't directly seal the cross-shaft void to the oil load. It vented a lot better is my assessment.

I have a RSD hyd cover and S/C on order which I'll fit to the M8 and test. That'll prove whether the older design negates the issue.

On my own bike, as well as HD06s vent kit I've also milled a bleed path from the gearbox side of the S/C housing directly to the gearboxes' air void. The intention being that if the primary does go into vacuum, it sucks air rather than oil.

HD06: I left the box vent standard during testing so as to not affect the test. The box vent sits above the gearboxes' oil load. The transfer is occurring out of the oil load with the void above at atmo. I seriously doubt that gearbox pressure is an issue. There's a sizeable air void in the box and it's vented to atmo.

Thanks for the explanation. Always something to learn from you guys.

[hd06]

 Thanks for the follow up.   

[Maddo Snr]

You may want to ask your mate about thermal expansion of the fluid as well. 

The direction this thread has taken seems like the most plausible explanation, especially given that a Harley rep knew it off the top of his head.  If this is indeed the solution I would prefer a more pretty setup, with a painted 90 degree fitting or something.

Exactly. 

p.s. My vent isn't ugly, it's hardly visible against the crinkle-black primary.

[hd06]

 It looks to be part of the bike, not a add on.   

[hogsty]

You may want to ask your mate about thermal expansion of the fluid as well. 

The direction this thread has taken seems like the most plausible explanation, especially given that a Harley rep knew it off the top of his head.  If this is indeed the solution I would prefer a more pretty setup, with a painted 90 degree fitting or something.

Exactly. 

p.s. My vent isn't ugly, it's hardly visible against the crinkle-black primary.

That setup looks great.   Is is venting to the ground?

[Maddo Snr]

You may want to ask your mate about thermal expansion of the fluid as well. 

The direction this thread has taken seems like the most plausible explanation, especially given that a Harley rep knew it off the top of his head.  If this is indeed the solution I would prefer a more pretty setup, with a painted 90 degree fitting or something.

Exactly. 

p.s. My vent isn't ugly, it's hardly visible against the crinkle-black primary.

That setup looks great.   Is is venting to the ground?

No, that'd suck dust/moisture into the primary. It goes to a black fish-tank air-line filter tucked away under the ignition packs.

[rudi_ufg]

air vent filters work bi-directionally

https://skarke.de/en/products/air-vent-filters/air-vent-filter-series-bef-bed

In the meantime I got the information from the manufacturer where it can be ordered: http://www.ganter-griff.de (sorry it's a German address)

[MakoHD]

seen it bunch of times the fix to it is Macomb county choppers 586 935 7433. its fatter clutch rod that doesn't allow the oil to sneak through the main shaft. its like $70.00 with shipping. I works, its proven...

[FSG]

seen it bunch of times the fix to it is Macomb county choppers 586 935 7433. its fatter clutch rod that doesn't allow the oil to sneak through the main shaft. its like $70.00 with shipping. I works, its proven...

a band-aid

[Maddo Snr]

seen it bunch of times the fix to it is Macomb county choppers 586 935 7433. its fatter clutch rod that doesn't allow the oil to sneak through the main shaft. its like $70.00 with shipping. I works, its proven...

MCCs fat rod; a) has an air passage at least as large in volume as the stock set-up when taking the machined-flat into account,  b) has no way of controlling rotation of the flat, and, c) has no technical explanation of the nature of the fault or how it can work.

'Proof' in engineering. involves identification of the fault and a sound technical explanation of how the revision achieves its aims.

Not saying it doesn't work...but if it does, and there's a sound engineering explanation of WHY it does, MCC would be doing themselves a huge favour by letting customers know.

There's north of 350,000 bikes affected, if MCC sold every one of those bike owners a $70 fix they'd be $24Million in the black. 

[oldbag]

I have a 2019 transferring trans oil. Other Harleys I have bought new over the past 18 years...if it is a safety issue they will admit and repair. Problems other than safety issues they don't hardly ever admit and tell dealers to reply they don't know of a problem. When I bought my bike 2.7.19 the salesman assured me the sumping and trans oil transfer were resolved on the 19 bikes. Well...that wasn't true. I have experienced several of their design flaws over the years and the results of their actions. They correct production bikes but don't have any interest in  sold bikes. Waiting is not a option for me...I already know what I won't get from them. So...I have installed the vent from this thread that appears to be working for others...of course it will take some miles for me to get the results. 

[MakoHD]

I've had over 5 bikes sump, including my bike 2019 cvo and my uncles bike 2019 cvo. both sumped several times. what I did to fix these two was i installed S&S oil pump kit. its been 5,000 miles since they each sumped with stock pumps. and those were the updated version with the seal up against the crank bearing.

[Hammerhandle]

When I purchased my 19 FLTRXS i knew there was a sumping possibility, so I got it to the 1k mark and knew to kiss the warranty bye bye after that, by properly voiding the warranty with non harley parts.

Yet i didnt know about them still transferring, i thought that was solved with the 18's, and after reading all 52 pages, and getting my hopes up reading posts, then being let down with some solutions only minimizing the issue.

I was hoping MCC's part would have been the easy simple fix after seeing that advertised, but according to you guys that seems to be snake oil.

Is that primary vent the end all be all for the issue, and is physically plugging the push rod a must do? with 52 pages and 3 MYs I was hoping things kinda came to a valid rock solid conclusion, but Maddo Snr, i didnt notice if you mentioned (or i missed it, it was late and more than 3 days ago lol) how many miles you had trouble free with that vent system.

Note: I may not even have the issue, didnt notice any loss, and my dealer didnt note it on the 1K miles service before they stored it for me.

sorry, newbie q's, things went back and forth in this long thread, just trying to clarify for myself.

[Maddo Snr]

...Maddo Snr, i didnt notice if you mentioned (or i missed it, it was late and more than 3 days ago lol) how many miles you had trouble free with that vent system...

HH, my own bike has gone 1100 miles since the mods and the transferring has stopped dead. I'll ask the other owners, one has gone more than one service interval (5000 miles)
I pop the derby off once per week and measure primary oil height with a vernier caliper.
It has stayed spot-on 12mm below the bottom of the notch.
I also run the box oil at the bottom of the dipstick 'X' when on a lift.

[hd06]

  Welcome to the forum HH as for the transfer problem. I had this problem since day 1 that's 2 years. It's been in the shop 13 times for transfer problem. When a Harley Rep. at a bike rally put the vent on it solved transfer problem.         
   As for as your Harley dealer didn't note the transfer problem. I was told by 3 different mechanics only ones I asked they just drain fluids and refill.
  You asked about plugging the head vents I wouldn't do that. I put the DK customs catch can on mine to keep the water vapor and oil mist out of the combustion chamber.
  The oil tank vent line kit looks to be working on some bikes that has a sumping problems and I will put one on mine if I have that problem. Hope this help.

[oldbag]

...Maddo Snr, i didnt notice if you mentioned (or i missed it, it was late and more than 3 days ago lol) how many miles you had trouble free with that vent system...

HH, my own bike has gone 1100 miles since the mods and the transferring has stopped dead. I'll ask the other owners, one has gone more than one service interval (5000 miles)
I pop the derby off once per week and measure primary oil height with a vernier caliper.
It has stayed spot-on 12mm below the bottom of the notch.
I also run the box oil at the bottom of the dipstick 'X' when on a lift.

did you do anything else other than the vent?

[Hammerhandle]

You asked about plugging the head vents I wouldn't do that.

Not the head vents, I was referring to the pushrod, i didnt know if something needed to be plugged/sealed there in addition to the primary vent

Maddo, in your photo the vent seems to be near where the chain might be slinging oil, any "oil blow by" issues at all? have you had to swap out or service the filter?

Not that you couldnt rig a system yourself, but i wonder if Tmans new crankcase vent kit would work just as good for the primary vent

[HogMike]

Had a nice chat with our SM at the dealership where I purchased my new bike.
Due to the fact that an oil transfer issue happens in the first 200 miles, the dealership and Harley customer care seems to be a little more involved getting a "fix" in place.
I purchased this bike at this time due to some long rides already booked in the next 3 months and there is NO reason for me to expect NOT to be able to take a brand new 40k+ bike on an extended ride.

I came very close to the BMW, but decided to trust my dealership who says this is the first of the 2019 cvo s that has had this issue.
We agreed on a target date to open things up this Tuesday and verify that the latest parts are in the bike, if not, the latest upgrades from the production line should be in the mechanics hand. Plan B will probably be the primary vent that seems to be working for others.

Dealership drained and measured fluids from primary and trans and refilled to specs.
I'll be riding today and will check the trans level when I get back to see how much the level changes. Updates will be coming in the next few days.

[Maddo Snr]

did you do anything else other than the vent?

Not in the customer bike we dyno tested, just the vent.

My own bike was cured by milling a vent-valley between the inside of the S/C housing and the gearboxes' air void.

Both mods do the same thing though, they create an air path for the primary to suck air rather than oil and stop the S/C cavity from developing oil pressure. No suck, no blow = no transfer.

. I did add HD06s vent mod to my own bike for good measure.