Question: SE Pro Tuner on stock 107 stock motor

[Bigs]

Will a SE Pro Tuner on a stock '17 107 motor be worthwhile. I was thinking of just a stage 1 download and what affect it might have on performance. Thanks in advance for your input.
   Bigs

[FXDBI]

Will a SE Pro Tuner on a stock '17 107 motor be worthwhile. I was thinking of just a stage 1 download and what affect it might have on performance. Thanks in advance for your input.
   Bigs

Best check with the dealer to see if it will void the warranty before carrying on.  Bob

[Hossamania]

Will a SE Pro Tuner on a stock '17 107 motor be worthwhile. I was thinking of just a stage 1 download and what affect it might have on performance. Thanks in advance for your input.
   Bigs

Best check with the dealer to see if it will void the warranty before carrying on.  Bob

We know the FP3 won't be covered...

[Ohio HD]

Will a SE Pro Tuner on a stock '17 107 motor be worthwhile. I was thinking of just a stage 1 download and what affect it might have on performance. Thanks in advance for your input.
   Bigs

Best check with the dealer to see if it will void the warranty before carrying on.  Bob

We know the FP3 won't be covered...

Neither will the SE Pro, Harley pulled them from the shelves.......     

[PoorUB]

Will a SE Pro Tuner on a stock '17 107 motor be worthwhile. I was thinking of just a stage 1 download and what affect it might have on performance. Thanks in advance for your input.
   Bigs

Bigs, if you have not heard, mother HD is watching closely on mods on the 2017 model in cooperation with the EPA. Only EPA approved modifications will not void warranty so anthing other that the HD EPA approved upgrades will not affect warranty. Any mod not in HD's catalog and you are on your own. Read the other threads here on the M8 and you will see that HD is voiding warranty easily.

[Bigs]

I guess I should of said SE Pro STREET Tuner P/N 4100008C 50-state U.S. EPA compliant.
   Bigs

[K4FXD]

Wonder if the EPA is going to go after the shops that "tamper" with pollution control crap.

I was hoping the current administration would dump the EPA altogether.

[Ohio HD]

If there were no EPA, we'd all be gagging on thick smog. If your old enough, you know this. In China, 2009, I couldn't even see the sun clearly in the industrial cites. Just like LA, New York, etc. was in the 1970's.

[Hossamania]

I agree, we do need the EPA. Sometimes it seems they overstep their boundaries, but the clean air and clean exhausts we have are a direct result of their work.
Most people don't care to modify their machines to run better (or properly),  so they don't care that the EPA keeps a few from improving theirs. And they feel the factory knows what they are doing. For our own good.

[K4FXD]

Not to get into politics, but I hate that any UN-elected bureaucrat or agency, can make law with no vote by elected officials.

Fine, keep the EPA but make congress VOTE on any proposed regulations.  We would still have clean air but not all the BS.

I am old enough to remember lake Erie on fire.

[BVHOG]

I agree, we need the EPA, just not 15 thousand of them.

[Bigs]

How about the original question? Will a SE Pro Street Tuner, the EPA approved one be any benefit to a stock new 107 stock Milwaukee 8.
   Bigs

[rigidthumper]

Sure!  While HD uses the same components on all the air or water, or oil cooled, models, there is always differences in air flow, or fuel flow through the injectors, or "stack up tolerances", etc, so every bike runs better when the map is adjusted for the specific components on that bike, even if those components are stock.

[ultraswede]

How about the original question? Will a SE Pro Street Tuner, the EPA approved one be any benefit to a stock new 107 stock Milwaukee 8.
   Bigs

Yes, if the tuning device can adjust the timing maps.
The fuel maps still need to be in CL to comply with emissions, so nothing (or not a lot) to gain there.

[PoorUB]

Seems to me the current tuners from HD are EPA compliant, and very limited on adjustment. The guys over in AFR and Tuning would know for sure.

[rigidthumper]

Street tuner currently offers +/- 4% VE change in closed loop areas, and +/- 10% VE open loop areas, along with +/- 3° advance closed loop areas, and from -0°+2°CL, up to +/- 6° in the OL areas should be adequate enough for the stock components. Maybe not super numbers, but should be better than when it left York.

[Sunny Jim]

In OZ, we are only offered the super tuner( orange). It works quite well.

[92flhtcu]

A tad off topic, but related to some of the comments
i have had dealers with engine warranty issues that were covered with aftermarket headers, mufflers, air cleaners, FP3, power vision, TTS
99% of if it is covered or not is how the bike owner's attitude is, how the dealers attitude is and how the area rep from the MoCo is. I have overheard some interesting discussions between dealer and Rep that swung the customers way

[FXDBI]

A tad off topic, but related to some of the comments
i have had dealers with engine warranty issues that were covered with aftermarket headers, mufflers, air cleaners, FP3, power vision, TTS
99% of if it is covered or not is how the bike owner's attitude is, how the dealers attitude is and how the area rep from the MoCo is. I have overheard some interesting discussions between dealer and Rep that swung the customers way

The past is the past its a whole different game since the EPA agreement last year when they pulled the tuners.  The motor company made a deal with them, part of that deal was to VOID warranty on bikes with non EPA approved parts and tunes. I fail to understand how people can really expect doing anything else but dealer approved work meeting EPA requirements should be covered on warranty.   Bob

[PoorUB]

Yep, the warranty game changed with the 2017 models.

[harleytuner]

I've tuned a few 17's worth the approved street tuner.  I was able to get decent gains on all of them over the canned MAP but every one of them needed adjustments outside of the limits I had to work with.  I would stick with just slip one and if cams I would use the DR cams.  If you want an aftermarket exhaust and/or cams then you just threw gouge warranty out the window anyways,  in that case I would go TTS

[92flhtcu]

I was referring to only 2017 M8 warranties that I have come across in my travels.
I'll say again, I've seen several get handled that "officially" should have been voided, but it really comes down to how it is presented by the dealer

[harleytuner]

I was referring to only 2017 M8 warranties that I have come across in my travels.
I'll say again, I've seen several get handled that "officially" should have been voided, but it really comes down to how it is presented by the dealer

If warranty is the concern I wouldn't take the risk and just use the Street tuner and EPA parts.  I do know there is some aftermarket parts getting EPA and CARB tested and if they pass they will be EPA compliant, but i'm not sure if HD will warranty bikes with these parts.  I also know there is some aftermarket tunes that that are getting tested as well.  but again, not sure how HD will handle this.  We'll have the results of the certification testing pretty soon (at least with the products i'm involved with)

[HD/Wrench]

I was referring to only 2017 M8 warranties that I have come across in my travels.
I'll say again, I've seen several get handled that "officially" should have been voided, but it really comes down to how it is presented by the dealer

If warranty is the concern I wouldn't take the risk and just use the Street tuner and EPA parts.  I do know there is some aftermarket parts getting EPA and CARB tested and if they pass they will be EPA compliant, but i'm not sure if HD will warranty bikes with these parts.  I also know there is some aftermarket tunes that that are getting tested as well.  but again, not sure how HD will handle this.  We'll have the results of the certification testing pretty soon (at least with the products i'm involved with)

You bring up a great point with the 50 state legal aftermarket parts coming HD will have to honor the warranty. As it follows in the tracks of others before it( outside of hd) . But what is on paper and what they do has never been the same . Game changer for sure .  Will have to see how they respond to it as well the warranty- extended part will need to be re written, as currently it has been the BS deal if the dealer did the entire kit it was ok but if you did it well nope ..  Lots of BS when it comes to warranty and HD . Always has hope that changes .

[hattitude]

You bring up a great point with the 50 state legal aftermarket parts coming HD will have to honor the warranty.

I'm not sure that's true......

Outside of basic service & maintenance (covered by MM Act) or restrictions imposed by the EPA consent decree, Harley gets to decide what performance parts will/will not void their warranty....

Getting an EPA/CARB approved tune and/or performance part just releases the owner and/or the shop doing the mods from breaking the law. It doesn't mean MoCo HAS TO accept the tune/part for warranty repair...

Image if you built a custom motor for a guy, he decided to add a part that absolutely didn't fit with your build, caused problems, and then damage to the motor. Just so happens the part had EPA/CARB certification.... what would you do if he then demanded you honor the warranty you gave him on the motor because it was an EPA part?

I put a CARB certified supercharger on my '04 Z06, that had an extended warranty. They fixed a couple things after the install, but they had nothing to do with the powertrain. They pretty much told me not to bring it in with a powertrain problem, cause they wouldn't cover it.... I expected no less.... On the flip side, I had to show the SMOG shop the executive orders for my shorty headers and the supercharger.... but then it passed SMOG with flying colors every time!

[HD/Wrench]

why if you installed a HD EPA kits is ok but not the next guys .. BS you cannot have it both ways.  EPA is EPA  Unless they re write the warranty they are going ot have to deal with it.. As for cars I installed many things that are EPA legal and never had a issue with the warranty from the manufacture.   I know what you are saying but push to come to shove , I think we are going to see some huge changes in the not so far future.

I am not a lawyer and make no claims to be one. But I did get one involved with a warranty issue on my Escalade over wheels and tires . They came up with some BS on the factory wheels I had where the issues over ABS.. In the end they fixed it and paid for my fees as well . He educated me on what they can and cannot do. and IF an item is not solely listed to be used then well they have to honor it . EPA tune etc etc .. provide it falls under non racing parts loosely termed .. 

Its like a CIA unit , so now you could look at it this way . You can only use a HD air cleaner??  or muffler  ??  where does it stop ..  I am sure we are going to see very soon . As there are several EPA packages that are due to be released.

I had a pro charger on my Caddie and as well on my charger.. Never had one issue. and it had to pass smog in AZ at the time as well . Yes had to have the paper work but never warranty issues..

BTW that did surprise many people.. all four tires smoking off the line..   

[PoorUB]

Getting an EPA/CARB approved tune and/or performance part just releases the owner and/or the shop doing the mods from breaking the law. It doesn't mean MoCo HAS TO accept the tune/part for warranty repair...

I agree. I don't know why HD would want to honor warranty on a modified engine, even if it just pipes and/or mufflers.

[rigidthumper]

JMO;  I wouldn't expect HD to warranty my brand X CARB/EPA approved parts, but they shouldn't deny claims on the rest of the bike.  When the SE legal versions don't void warranty, then brand X legal versions shouldn't, either. If the part is EPA approved, then the warranty should stay intact-as far as the EPA mandate goes.

[harleytuner]

Put me down for doubting the will honor it.   The decree says they won't honor anything non-compliant, but it doesn't say they will honor anything compliant neither.  When it was written and signed there was no after market with compliant components. 

[PoorUB]

But Harley does not test and supply aftermarket parts. The difference between SE and everyone else is the MoCo tested and supplies SE. Just because a aftermarket parts it EPA approved does not mean it was installed and tuned properly.

I have never understood why HD still honored warranty on modified engines to begin with.

[CndUltra88]

Wonder if the EPA is going to go after the shops that "tamper" with pollution control crap.

I was hoping the current administration would dump the EPA altogether.

Why are they going after us Motorcycle Enthusists when the idiots in those Coal roller Trucks are pouring fuel and soot and other noxious crap in to the air with their ( insert tuner brand here )?
FFS, those idiots are easier to spot and target if they (epa) chose to be proactive.
My Bad for rationally thinking this evening.
Rob

[hattitude]

why if you installed a HD EPA kits is ok but not the next guys .. BS you cannot have it both ways.  EPA is EPA  Unless they re write the warranty they are going ot have to deal with it..

I'm not a lawyer either, but I have dealt with legal issues my entire career.

The HD Limited warranty is a contract between the MoCo and the buyer. The MoCo writes the contract and the purchaser accepts it if they choose to buy the vehicle.... You can negotiate price, equipment, and service, but not warranty..

The MoCo doesn't have to re-write their Warranty, because they do not reference EPA approval as the standard for accepted aftermarket/performance parts. The only mention of EPA and warranty is a stipulation in the consent decree, specifically mentioning tuners..

The MoCo uses the word "approved" in the warranty, which gives them the ability to decide what is approved or not. They cover their butts in 2 places in the written warranty.

From the warranty, under "Exclusions";

This limited warranty will not apply to any motorcycle.

4. Which has off-road or competition parts installed to enhance performance, a trailer hitch, or has other unapproved modifications (even if these modifications include genuine Harley-Davidson parts and accessories that are not approved for use on your motorcycle). These modifications may void all or parts of your new motorcycle limited warranty. See an authorized Harley-Davidson dealer for details.

From the warranty, under "Other Limitations";

This limited warranty does not cover:

4. Defects or damage to the motorcycle caused by alterations outside of Harley-Davidson's factory specifications or caused by alterations or use of parts or accessories not approved for the make and model year of your motorcycle.

Again, I'm no lawyer, but I wouldn't try to take them to court if they decide an EPA approved part is not approved for the purpose of their warranty.....

[PoorUB]

From the warranty, under "Exclusions";

This limited warranty will not apply to any motorcycle.

4. Which has off-road or competition parts installed to enhance performance, a trailer hitch, or has other unapproved modifications (even if these modifications include genuine Harley-Davidson parts and accessories that are not approved for use on your motorcycle). These modifications may void all or parts of your new motorcycle limited warranty. See an authorized Harley-Davidson dealer for details.

From the warranty, under "Other Limitations";

This limited warranty does not cover:

4. Defects or damage to the motorcycle caused by alterations outside of Harley-Davidson's factory specifications or caused by alterations or use of parts or accessories not approved for the make and model year of your motorcycle.

Again, I'm no lawyer, but I wouldn't try to take them to court if they decide an EPA approved part is not approved for the purpose of their warranty.....

Pretty clear that the MoCo can void your warranty for about anything!

Looks like I should remove my trailer hitch when not towing!!

[tomcat64]

I was referring to only 2017 M8 warranties that I have come across in my travels.
I'll say again, I've seen several get handled that "officially" should have been voided, but it really comes down to how it is presented by the dealer

If warranty is the concern I wouldn't take the risk and just use the Street tuner and EPA parts.  I do know there is some aftermarket parts getting EPA and CARB tested and if they pass they will be EPA compliant, but i'm not sure if HD will warranty bikes with these parts.  I also know there is some aftermarket tunes that that are getting tested as well.  but again, not sure how HD will handle this.  We'll have the results of the certification testing pretty soon (at least with the products i'm involved with)

so far they have been flagging VIN's that have been tunes with TTS,, 2017's only.. flagged VIN does not mean voided,, but it does require a call from the dealer to get warranty approved..

[wiliturk]

[/quote]

Pretty clear that the MoCo can void your warranty for about anything!

Looks like I should remove my trailer hitch when not towing!!
[/quote]

I would suggest you do that. I was discussing all this tuner and exhaust stuff with a mechanic at a local H-D shop. He told he had no doubt that they would void your warranty if you used an expressly forbidden part or software. He went on to relate a story about the dealer rep walking thru the service dept. checking things out when he came upon a customers bike with a trailer hitch. He took down the vin went to his computer and voided his warranty on the spot. When the owner came in to pick up his bike from a warranty repair they had to tell him he no longer had any warranty and he had to pay the bill himself. The dealership owner tried to talk to the rep to no avail. They ended up eating the bill. But his warranty was gone. He went on to say the hitch was a Harley part but is clearly says the bikes are not a tow vehicle in the warranty.

[HV]

The Trailer Hitch would not be a Harley Part ....they dont make one

[rigidthumper]

You know guys believe if a dealership sells/installs a part, then it's Harley...