HarleyTechTalk

Quote from: Steve Cole on June 15, 2010, 04:46:58 PM
You will never get to 0% tps in a DBW bike so it's of no concern. IF the TPS was to go to 0% you would have stalled the motor.

Ahh,, OK. I have a softail so I didnt know that..

Like any software package the Twin Scan has to be setup properly for data collection and data presentation.  The key is data accuracy.  I believe you have a DBW bike.

1-The Table format needs to be Super Tuner Twin Cam Advanced for you bike.  You have some more columns of data that can be shown.
2-The Percent VE table is only good to +/- 0.5% as the percent is rounded to nearest whole number.  If you believe like I do that the Bosch LSU 4.2 is more accurate than that, then Daytona Sensors has spreadsheets that will give you the VE correction to the 0.1 of an AFR
3-If your bike is a 2008 or 2009 then the Twin Scan Parameters need to be set up for that.  If you bike is a 2010 then the Twin Scan needs to be setup for that which is different.  If you bike is older than 2008 or is cable throttle then the Twin Scan setup is different.  This is to setup the Twin Scan before data collection.
4- When collecting data you need to remember to clear the Scan Tool Data buffer.  If you are also carrying a laptop then you clear the Twin Scan Data buffer and the Program data buffer.  Laptop is not necessary.
5-Data logging interval is important for getting enough samples so the data is good and flyers in the data can be eliminated.

The Daytona Sensors TS2 will work for any of the software Direct Link, SERT,Super Pro Tuner and TTS up and through model year 2009. The TS2 will work with Direct Link and Super Pro Tuner for 2010.  TTS changed things with Lambda and some of the tables so the Twin Scan will collect all the data but it will not line up 100% in the spreadsheets.  The Lambda calculation can be done easily enough but there is still a rowXcolumn alignment issue. This is just an FYI.

Quote from: wurk_truk on June 16, 2010, 11:05:42 AM
At the end of the V-Tune, I blended all the columns for 90+100 to match the 80kpa.  Also blended all the rows from 5000 down to match the 4500 row.   I ran multiple TS data runs.  Combined these.  I find that what Steve says to be correct, and that these areas become a bit rich after blending.  Look at 5000 and 5500 rows and the 90+100 columns.

So now looking at your data, it shows V-tune and TS line up pretty damn well. Most of your corrections are less than 5% and it's going to change that much day to day. This is why we tell you to get the Vtune down to the 5% or less corrections and then call it a day. These things will never be perfect but once you've got it down to the 5 % area that's as good as the sensors can repeat and some not event that good! At the high load areas we are much more comfortable with it being on the rich side than the lean side of things.

I will have to say you did one hell of a job populating cells on the street, how the brakes holding up

Thanks, wurk_truk
This has been a great post and thanks for sharing your findings and simplified explanations with us. Now I can't wait to get my ecm and interface back from TTS so I can start tuning

As we've always said V-tune will get you 85%+ of the way there when done correctly and as you have found out it can be done on the street if you pay attention to the details. There is no need to wear brakes out or anything else when doing it, you just have to think outside the box some. Using different gears and load for different areas, hills no hills helps but so does putting a passenger on when gathering data. The AFR is going to change/move a small amount everyday and every tank of fuel so do not get caught up in trying to correct it below about a 5% range as it's not going to happen with any part of it, nor will it hurt performance.  I've been at this for 30 plus years and this works.

Bottom line is it works as we say it does and when following the directions you will get a very nice tune. Will it be the end all be all dyno tune......... NO but close enough to be very safe.

WOW ...glass 1/2 full or 1/2 M/T
I cant believe that AFR'S off 1.5 to  2.0 is called good enough!
when I see 10's 12's 15's 18's I call that off. and keep tuning.
I see canned maps closer then this! we are talking about a v-tuned map here right?
afr command of 13.1 and a actual of 11.1 is not close enough nor is a afr  command of 13.5 and actual of 11.8.
thanks for posting your results John. I would do some more tuning 

Where did you dream up those numbers If you look at what his results were from the areas he V-tune it's within 5%! The motor will change that much day to day!

Then we have to know how close the Broadband sensor is that's being used because the TSII does not follow the Bosch specifications, but according to you that does not matter. Guess he needs to go get those calibrated as well! Talk about a glass 1/2 empty or 1/2 full you can never be sure of what your getting!

Now if you bothered to read his post he stated he quit tuning at 4500 so anything above that was untuned ( his choice, as Vtune works to 6000), so you of coarse pick a number from above that! To see what's really been tune we would need his Vtune data and overlay that with the TSII data as well but you knew that too. When it's all said and done no matter what anyone has said over the past year and half your not going to believe it works!

Quote from: Steve Cole on June 16, 2010, 07:39:10 PM
Where did you dream up those numbers If you look at what his results were from the areas he V-tune it's within 5%! The motor will change that much day to day!

Then we have to know how close the Broadband sensor is that's being used because the ,TSII does not follow the Bosch specifications but according to you that does not matter. Guess he needs to go get those calibrated as well! Talk about a glass 1/2 empty or 1/2 full you can never be sure of what your getting!

Now if you bothered to read his post he stated he quit tuning at 4500 so anything above that was untuned ( his choice, as Vtune works to 6000), so you of coarse pick a number from above that! To see what's really been tune we would need his Vtune data and overlay that with the TSII data as well but you knew that too. When it's all said and done no matter what anyone has said over the past year and half your not going to believe it works!

so then your saying extrapolating the ve's isn't accurate? I can look at the whole map and see it is off but you knew that also.
In the last year and a half I have seen more screwed up v-tune maps it makes my head spin. the handful that have success with v-tune follow up with wide band to get it right (by the way thats what is happing here also). so why not just use them in the first place. face it the public using v-tune are not happy otherwise these forums wouldn't be full of them seeking help. NO I don't believe it works for ultimate tuning SAFE yes, but is it as good as Twin Scan no way. wonder where the idea of v-tune came from anyway?
as far as the bosch broadbands they were ok in your previous post when you were claiming looking at your data, it shows V-tune and TS line up pretty damn well. but as soon as someone says the AFR is off then your back to TSII does not follow the Bosch specifications 

Tuners charge $3-500 for this same service.  IMHO, that price is a BARGAIN

Congrats on getting your feet in the water. Good Job.

I have both tools. On mine it will be the TS for VEs and then datamaster to glance at timing activity, based on what I have learned from this thread.
Actually this tuning excersize with a 130hp bike on the street can be a little more of a cop dodge challenge A buddy locked his front brake going up hill at the same time trying to hit cells, not good
I will get it close and then to a dyno to finish. Will just save the tuner a little time and he can spend more time power hunting.

Thanks Don.  I needed a little pick me up.  You and TXChop made MY day!!!!!

Quote from: strokerjlk on June 16, 2010, 07:59:37 PM

Quote from: Steve Cole on June 16, 2010, 07:39:10 PM
Where did you dream up those numbers If you look at what his results were from the areas he V-tune it's within 5%! The motor will change that much day to day!

Then we have to know how close the Broadband sensor is that's being used because the ,TSII does not follow the Bosch specifications but according to you that does not matter. Guess he needs to go get those calibrated as well! Talk about a glass 1/2 empty or 1/2 full you can never be sure of what your getting!

Now if you bothered to read his post he stated he quit tuning at 4500 so anything above that was untuned ( his choice, as Vtune works to 6000), so you of coarse pick a number from above that! To see what's really been tune we would need his Vtune data and overlay that with the TSII data as well but you knew that too. When it's all said and done no matter what anyone has said over the past year and half your not going to believe it works!

so then your saying extrapolating the ve's isn't accurate? I can look at the whole map and see it is off but you knew that also.
In the last year and a half I have seen more screwed up v-tune maps it makes my head spin. the handful that have success with v-tune follow up with wide band to get it right (by the way thats what is happing here also). so why not just use them in the first place. face it the public using v-tune are not happy otherwise these forums wouldn't be full of them seeking help. NO I don't believe it works for ultimate tuning SAFE yes, but is it as good as Twin Scan no way. wonder where the idea of v-tune came from anyway?
as far as the bosch broadbands they were ok in your previous post when you were claiming looking at your data, it shows V-tune and TS line up pretty damn well. but as soon as someone says the AFR is off then your back to TSII does not follow the Bosch specifications 

You know what your beginning to sound like a broke record. If you cannot have a bike brought to you for TS II tuning you say it doesn't work, and also please stop trying to put words in my mouth. What I said is that it line up pretty damn good, I did not think it needed to be said in the areas where the two could be compared! I assumed most here were smart enough to know that already, my bad for including you in that group.

The idea for V-tune came from our automotive line were it has been around since 1989-90 long before TS or the others were event in business, so drop that line of BS! So who copied who here? Guess what, others were doing it before us too! I have always stated that the Bosch Broadbands were OK when used properly, when they are used improperly who knows. Now if you read the Bosch specification it says that you need to correct for the pressure in the exhaust and the temperature in the exhaust. As the pressure rises and the temperature climbs the corrections get larger. So where would that tend to make the sensor readings further off? Maybe just maybe at higher loads and higher exhaust flows!

Looking at the data posted in the areas that were Vtuned (as the customer chose not to do them all) they line up, no where have I or any TTS employee ever stated that you can copy values from RPM point to RPM point and expect it to be right! What we have stated repeatedly is that once you get the 80 kPa point corrected at an RPM point you can copy/extend that value to the end of that RPM row. When doing this you going to be a little richer than desired but it will be safe and within a couple of Hp of max power output! If anyone has any doubt just sit down and read the Tuning Guide as it's all explained there on pages 53 - 62! This test has again showed just exactly what I've said is true.

So if your going to say that being within a few percent is too far off for you I guess you should quit tuning as they move that much day to day and tank of fuel to tank of fuel.

QuoteYou know what your beginning to sound like a broke record. If you cannot have a bike brought to you for TS II tuning you say it doesn't work, and also please stop trying to put words in my mouth. What I said is that it line up pretty damn good,

who's sounding like a broken record around here? you are always running off about the wide bands broad bands being cheap and they don't work as well as the narrow bands. so if they line up pretty damn good then how bad can they be. it isn't a matter of if...a bike cant be brought to me then it isn't tuned right ,it is the fact that 85%... so called...  (your words) is NOT good enough! you are the broken record constantly putting down wide bands when they work fine and any one that has used them knows that as well.
The topic of this thread is how to get the best home made tune. I think most here are smart enough to see that 100% vs 85% is better...my bad I knew better then to include you in that group because you are marketing a product and would never admit that something is better.
all this crap you spew about how cheap wide bands don't work is BS to further push your product. when someone challenges you then you get abusive and defensive. I don't buy your BS and neither does the majority of tuners .in fact it is a joke among tuners (v-tune and smart tune.)

QuoteSo if your going to say that being within a few percent is too far off for you I guess you should quit tuning as they move that much day to day and tank of fuel to tank of fuel.

a few percent would be OK but 1.0 -2.0 is not acceptable. it's a guess plain and simple.
no reason to quit tuning because when owners get frustrated with v- tune they have to be tuned correct.
I am done with you on this one because.......we are both beginning to sound like a broken record. you do your thing and I will do mine

Yes, if owner wants/needs 100% then a dyno tune can get you closer but it's still not going to get 100%, we've been saying that from day 1. Guess like always you have not been listening! If the dyno operator uses a Broad Band sensor system that does not follow the Bosch specifications (like a TS) your not going to get much better than 90%. As for wide Bands if you could find a dyno tuner that owns a set then they could get about 98% for the day the bike was tuned on. Two days later or a week later it could be down 5-7% for a Broad Band setup and about 2 - 3% for Vtune or a Wide Band system. Nothing any tuner can do about it as those changes are due to outside causes.

As people can see some socalled tuners are not very happy that they are losing business and are not willing to change. They think things should just stay the same and keep people in the dark.

Quote from: wurk_truk on June 15, 2010, 09:57:00 PM
AFter playing with TS for like 10 minutes, it damwned on me how this all works.

Glens, and myself were talking crap when we said that we would have to refigure AFRs using the 'offset' CLBs.

Nope... not the case.

That remains to be seen, my friend.

Quote1) with NB O2s unplugged, the ECM is in OPEN loop at 14.6.  Cannot have closed loop without the O2s. TS will tune to the commanded 14.6

With AFVs cleared beforehand, right?

Quote2)  thought this thru all wrong, too.  The ECM still commands 14.6 regardless of the CLB setting.  What the CLB setting does is trick the ECM into thinking the O2 is still reporting Stoich, and the ECM corrects to Stoich in closed loop.  The CLB changes what the sensor REPORTS as stoich, is all the CLB does.  In V-Tune, we need that 'trick' at hand to come up with the correct math.  Thats why the NEW v-tune if we change CLB.  The 'ticked out' O2 is in 'play' during V-Tune with all the math in tow.

Well, sort of.  What the CLB does isn't trickery of any sort.  All it does is tell the ECM what sensor output voltage to use as the "hinge" point during its consideration of what's going on at the moment when closed-loop.  The system will dither the fuel just every so slightly rich (crossing the CLB voltage) and lean (crossing the CLB voltage again).  Ideally this will occur on successive cycles.  This is why the faster-acting your O2 sensors are the better they'll work (they get slower with age and some are better than others when new).  This is why they're called "switching sensors".  It's because they're very fast-acting and can quickly toggle (follow the AFR across stoich).  At a consistent and even pressure/temperature/burn (not cyclic) I think you'd see their output voltage stay at one continual level.

How do you know that when you're free-air-calibrating your TwinScan/WEGO unit that you're not adjusting one single CLB within the WEGO's closed-loop sensor controller?  Tap into the sensing element's signal with an oscilloscope and tell me what you see, both during use on an engine and while free-air-calibrating it?  I'm thinking a nice symmetrical voltage waveform in the first case and a steady-state (or at least much more-so) voltage in the second case.  I guess it depends on how/if the controller dithers the ion pump or not.

QuoteThats' why one can input outside data and NOT have to worry about it all.  There is no math 'trick' involved if tuned against commanded output.  Can change the CLB at will.  The ECM is actually tuned against actual command.

Okay.  So you TwinScanned to (whatever the actual stoich AFR of your fuel actually is, but still) "14.6", the ECM will have good data for a true "14.6" (equivalent), if it has 450mV CLBs!.  If you change them to a "richer" voltage, the AFVs will at least all move to accommodate the change.  Wherever such an AFV becomes what it takes to make the "new" "14.6" its influence will be "felt" wherever it has "jurisdiction" and whether the commanded AFR is "14.6" or something different there for the moment.  And the "right" and "bottom" AFVs will be used the rest of the way out (just like the CLBs do, the ETC throttle-blade control does, etc.).

Just think.  If the VE tables matched the fueling tables (in respect to axes, like the 10 [and should be 09] touring calibrations) you'd be able, if you had indication of what/any AFV activity was at all times, to figure what the "AFR" would be anywhere closed-loop with your chosen CLBs, then set the "AFR" values appropriately in the calibration and tune the VEs to that with your TwinScan.  Then, put the values back to "14.6" in the calibration with those CLBs and all your ever-open-loop areas will remain at what you set them with the TwinScan.

If you get everything spot-on with your TwinScan and then go closed-loop with >450 CLBs, all your ever-open-loop areas will go richer, in proportion to how much higher your went with the CLBs.  Because your AFVs will take you there.

If you did it the way I outlined in the "Just think" paragraph above, your AFVs will start and stay at 100% (nominally, as always).

I'm not picking at you.  I'm trying to help you understand what it is you're trying to do.  That's all.

If you load a calibration or otherwise clear your AFVs and tune with the TwinScan with its sensors installed as replacements to the stock units, you'll be open-loop at the time.  No AFVs will be changed from their 100% base value because no CLBs will be considered because the system has no O2 sensors, so how can it do any closed-loop work?

If you are running 450mV CLBs when you do go back to closed-loop, the AFVs will nominally stay right at 100% because your VEs are all accurate.  Of course this all assumes that the Delphi and the TwinScan, each with their sensors in operation, develop the same notion of things.  I just wanted to throw that out there because it's possible they'll differ some.  But let's keep this simple and assume they jibe with each other.  Sorry for that.  I had to say that for "liability" reasons.

When you instead go closed-loop with greater CLBs, the Delphi will figure the fuel it needs and send it.  The closed-loop operation will toggle "rich"/"lean" about that greater CLB and determine it needs more fuel than it was figuring for its "14.6".  It'll provide this fuel via an AFV wherever appropriate.  Then, as I stated earlier, this "final factor" gets applied at all times either directly for any AFV, or as part of a combination of more than one, depending on where "current" operation is in relation to it/them.  And it doesn't matter if the current operation is calling for "14.6" or "12.8".  Whatever AFV (or combination of them) is pertinent to the operating area will be applied anyway.  This is how the system compensates for things like different fuel blends and keeps things relatively "right" across-the-board, even when it can't confirm them, like in the 100% throttle or 100% MAP columns.  (If you consistently need 3% more of this current "blend" of fuel during closed-loop operation, it certainly must apply in any open-loop operation, too, because it's a deviation from the tuning [VE] parameters everywhere.)  Man, this paragraph's getting big, but I want to make sure you understand what I'm saying.

What happens to your, say, "88" VE value when a "final factor" used is "100%" (the same as used to develop the VE)?  Nothing.  It'll be both actually and effectively "88".

What happens to your "88" VE when it was developed with a "final factor" of "100%" but a final factor of "104%" is used against it (because a CLB takes the "14.6" to "14.0")?  It'll actually be the original "88" but it'll effectively be "91.5" because of the resultant AFV ("final factor") becoming "104%" (as outlined above for this example).

Do you see what I'm saying?  Your "commanded" AFR of, say, 13.8, will still be "commanded" as that, but without closed-loop confirmation, the last best information from closed-loop operation will be applied.  In the case of the "effective" 91.5 VE, what was 13.8 @88 will become 13.3!

Are these differences "huge"?  No, they're not.  But they will be brought about, and if you're trying to be as complete as possible you need to be aware of them (I guess that's debatable) and either learn to work around them (as in my example in my previous post) or just never go closed-loop after you've polished your VEs with the TwinScan.

Don't take any of this as being antagonistic in any way.  It's not intended as such.  Not in the least.  I'd like to have a TwinScan myself.  And a load-control dyno.  And the time to use them.

Quote from: Steve Cole on June 17, 2010, 05:01:49 PM
Yes, if owner wants/needs 100% then a dyno tune can get you closer but it's still not going to get 100%, we've been saying that from day 1. Guess like always you have not been listening! If the dyno operator uses a Broad Band sensor system that does not follow the Bosch specifications (like a TS) your not going to get much better than 90%. As for wide Bands if you could find a dyno tuner that owns a set then they could get about 98% for the day the bike was tuned on. Two days later or a week later it could be down 5-7% for a Broad Band setup and about 2 - 3% for Vtune or a Wide Band system. Nothing any tuner can do about it as those changes are due to outside causes.

As people can see some so called tuners are not very happy that they are losing business and are not willing to change. They think things should just stay the same and keep people in the dark.

Oh I have been listing alright. just because I don't agree with you, you start your abuse and throwing around innuendos.
tunes can and will deteriorate over time. agreed!
your statement aimed at me being a so called tuner is a prime example of your methods to somehow discredit someones opinion if it doesn't line up with yours.
I am not loosing business because of v-tune. if fact it has brought me business. as I stated earlier.
actually in my area Joe biker off the street has never heard of TTS. I actually have to talk them out of going PC or SEST, and tune with TTS.
you got me all wrong again.....I don't tune to make a living. I tune because I have a passion for it. I do this because I got tired of seeing guys get ripped off on there tunes. I work a full time day job for the #2 fortune 500 co. (last I checked). If I were to do this for a living I would have to hustle two tunes a day to make the same money....three if I counted my benefits etc. then I would not be able to give the compleat tunes that I do now and it would be easy to fall into the very same boat that SO CALLED tuners are in now.

Quote from: wurk_truk on June 15, 2010, 06:06:12 PM
8 hours v-tuning.  That includes some data runs to get rid of timing being pulled by ION sensor.

I have SOME experience with this, so far.....   So... just so somebody reading this, this is NOT a SEST Smart Tune that gives you hardly any control.  THIS takes some time and effort to get the v-tune runs run correctly.

I've been doing some Smart Tuning, and gained noticible improvements. I've been trying to run under various loads, at various RPMS and throttle positions. It does take time and effort. I'm not looking to get into a debate here about the merits of either device, but what is it in the ECM that the SESTP doesn't give me access to?

VTune and Smart Tune allow corrections to the VE tables based on data gathered during runs. What additional control are you getting w/the TTS that I don't have w/the SESTP? Again, I'm not looking for an argument here, rather just trying to gain some knowledge.

Quote from: strokerjlk on June 18, 2010, 04:46:16 AM

Quote from: Steve Cole on June 17, 2010, 05:01:49 PM
Yes, if owner wants/needs 100% then a dyno tune can get you closer but it's still not going to get 100%, we've been saying that from day 1. Guess like always you have not been listening! If the dyno operator uses a Broad Band sensor system that does not follow the Bosch specifications (like a TS) your not going to get much better than 90%. As for wide Bands if you could find a dyno tuner that owns a set then they could get about 98% for the day the bike was tuned on. Two days later or a week later it could be down 5-7% for a Broad Band setup and about 2 - 3% for Vtune or a Wide Band system. Nothing any tuner can do about it as those changes are due to outside causes.

As people can see some so called tuners are not very happy that they are losing business and are not willing to change. They think things should just stay the same and keep people in the dark.

Oh I have been listing alright. just because I don't agree with you, you start your abuse and throwing around innuendos.
tunes can and will deteriorate over time. agreed!
your statement aimed at me being a so called tuner is a prime example of your methods to somehow discredit someones opinion if it doesn't line up with yours.
I am not loosing business because of v-tune. if fact it has brought me business. as I stated earlier.
actually in my area Joe biker off the street has never heard of TTS. I actually have to talk them out of going PC or SEST, and tune with TTS.
you got me all wrong again.....I don't tune to make a living. I tune because I have a passion for it. I do this because I got tired of seeing guys get ripped off on there tunes. I work a full time day job for the #2 fortune 500 co. (last I checked). If I were to do this for a living I would have to hustle two tunes a day to make the same money....three if I counted my benefits etc. then I would not be able to give the compleat tunes that I do now and it would be easy to fall into the very same boat that SO CALLED tuners are in now.

You are just the so called tuner I am talking about. I think you need to go back and read what you've stated before you event talk about throwing innuendos. You do not know how the system works and are not willing to learn it. Your stuck on the idea that the engine needs to run at a fix AFR value to work properly when that is not the case. Then you cannot seem to understand that the TS is using the Bosch sensor improperly and you want to say it's the bible to go by! The TS and any other meter using the Broad Band O2 sensors placed in the exhaust pipe with out sampling exhaust pressure and exhaust temperature are reading WRONG. The error they give gets worse with increased temperature and increased pressure. So since your so smart working for a fortune 500 company why not due some basic research first before you further put your foot in your mouth. Start by getting the Bosch specification sheet for the Broad Band sensor and reading then understand what they tell you and why they tell you how it has to be used for accurate readings!

I have no issues with someone who goes and does the research and has a different opinion but those who are too lazy to go do the work are a problem and you sir fall into the later category!

So let me get this straight.
An AFR meter using a Bosch " broad band " O2 sensor such as Innovate LM-1 / LM-2 or DTT WEGO III  are not that accurate ?   

Can any readings be somewhat translated in to usuable AFR data ?

As for the 5% variance. Are you saying that the actual running AFR can vary 5% at any given time?  So tuning to 14.2:1 one day can actually be running in the mid 13's to high 14's depending on weather and fuel ? Let's just say in open loop.
I have personally seen changes due to both but didn't pay attention to what percentage.

I am not saying anything, the Bosch specification sheet is saying it all! All I am doing is letting people know about it.

ALL motors will move around due to outside causes, this is just why a closed loop system was developed to trim them back. Yes, emissions is what forced it to happen but it is a good thing. So if your going to test you must test with something that is more accurate than what you are testing. If you do not use equipment that is better than what your testing you gain no useful information about the system operation.

With that in mind I've run test after test here with various fuel mixtures on a properly tuned HD motor and would anyone like to guess the WOT power output change from running 13.5:1 down to 12.7:1 AFR using a real WIDE BAND system?

The TS and any other meter using the Broad Band O2 sensors placed in the exhaust pipe with out sampling exhaust pressure and exhaust temperature are reading WRONG. The error they give gets worse with increased temperature and increased pressure.

Holy cow, this means then that if a tuner uses these same sensors in his wand sampling device or in the exhaust port then that data is erroneous. That would put all Dynojet operators in that catagory AFAIK right??? Do they sample temperature and pressure? Does the Dynojet tuning software have compensation tables to cause a correction?

Think about what happens when you remove the sensor from the exhaust pipe.

>>>I am not saying anything, the Bosch specification sheet is saying it all! All I am doing is letting people know about it.<<<

Steve, I asked if that's what " you " were saying because I don't have the Bosch specification sheet. I was also curious if you were saying the O2 sensor varied by 5% or actual running AFR.
Thanks for clearing that up.

Now I'm wondering what to do with AFR data I get from my WEGO III 
I guess If you saw WFO go from 13.5 to 12.7....then it could also go to 14.2 ?

"With that in mind I've run test after test here with various fuel mixtures on a properly tuned HD motor and would anyone like to guess the WOT power output change from running 13.5:1 down to 12.7:1 AFR using a real WIDE BAND system?"

My guess would be not much of a change.

Quote from: Steve Cole on June 18, 2010, 10:17:52 AM
Think about what happens when you remove the sensor from the exhaust pipe.

Got to wonder the same thing Don and Sonny are asking.  I use Bosch p/n 16065 for the dyno.  Different p/n for the LM1, but looks to be the same.  I have used one to verify what the other is reading.