I was just last night test the newest beta version of MegaLogViewer. I helped talking Phil into adding the ability to do scatter graphs. I was feeding in data off the TTS data stream.
This is really interesting. I always knew the MAP was the largest contributor of all of the sensors when running the ECU calcs. I never had an easy way to plot it. Check it out.
The differences in the two curves is evidence that the the Y manifold and exhaust is causing issues. I would think the bigger the difference, the bigger the issue. I wonder what this looks like on a Harley before and after the smoothing and valve opening stuff?
Way cool stuff.
AW
(http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/MLV_Beta_MAPvsPW.jpg)
That spot at about 2.5 on the injector and about 32 on the map sure stands out I wonder if that is a visualization of cam reversion. It seems more prevalent on the front cylinder.
I have looked at a 100 or so tunes. It appears to be that a very tight pattern is a good indicator of a tightly tuned bike. What is interesting is if this tight pattern should continue on up to the top right corner of the map. My guess is yes.
The dot that develops on most of the tunes is definitely the bike at idle. Some bikes develop the dot above the main line and others below.
Some bikes have two distinct lines that appear. This is really strange and I bet will turn out to be an indication of a serious tuning issue.
All I would need is data logs off a few a few well tuned bikes as they were being tuned on the dyno doing power sweeps.
AW
Here the the same Big Twin before and after tuning. Notice how much finer the line of dots is.
Before Tuning
(http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/MLV_Beta_MAPvsRPM_BeforeTuning.jpg)
After Tuning
(http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/MLV_Beta_MAPvsRPM_AfterTuning.jpg)
Both tunes were done a few years ago with the TPS (Alpha-N Presentation) based VE tables that are far more problematic than the newer MAP (Speed Density) based VE Tables.
Notice that this trace also has the idle dot below the main line of dots. You can see from to o2 trace on the right that this bike was running closed loop with a high O2 Bias setting making the o2s difficult to "Read".
Have fun tuning
AW
Here is my bike running on the highway in and out of the throttle between 2500 and 3500 RPM. Notice how tight the pattern is. In this range, my bike is open loop as the o2 feed back loop is totally useless in this range stock. In the second trace you can easily see how two distinct lines develop on the lower trace as the o2s add and subtract fuel seeking two specific AFRs. 14.7 plus .5 AFR and 14.7 minus .5 AFR. The second trace is the same bike totally stock using the same TTS to data log what was going on. Keep in mind that this program is still doing a rather tacky auto scaling that is common on poorly written software. I am trying to get Phil to fix it. You are looking at early beta software that I bet will evolve fairy quick now thit he is messing with it full time. :smile:
My Tune
(http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/MLV_Beta_MAPvsRPM_Highway.jpg)
Stock
(http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/MLV_Beta_MAPvsRPM_HighwayStock.jpg)
AW
dang I wish I understood this stuff. Is there a basic book that would help understand some of this vodoo?
Somewhat unrelated but this is what reasonable throttle response with total control of the DBW, a light flywheel and programmers with too much time on their hands gets you...
It gets good at about 1/2 way thru.
Renault F1 Car playing God Save The Queen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JPBdBIFGNQ#)
Have fun tuning
AW
Here is a textbook example of an autotuning software that has given the apparently wrong answer. This tune was generated by following VTune standard procedure to the tee. We opened up the data to look around and this is what we found. The rear cylinder is quit normal but the front tune appears to be a mess. Without looking at the data, the owner would have had no clue something had gone wrong.
Things to look for may be air leaks in the exhaust, bad o2 sensor...
(http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/MLV_Beta_BPWvsMAP_BigTrouble.jpg)
The lesson here is never trust a tuner (electronic or overpaid mechanic) without looking at the data.
AW
Hey Andy
It may be helpful to some (me) mto explain HOW one loads up TTS data to be viewed in the mega log viewer. Really simple basic step-by-step instructions would be nice.
Start a new thread for this, OK?
Right now the stuff that does these scatter graphs is still in beta form and will most likely keep changing fairly quick. Once the final (stable) version is released I will be happy to do that.
You can find the standard stuff that can even be used for free by going to
http://www.ideasandsolutions.biz/MegaLogViewer/download/ (http://www.ideasandsolutions.biz/MegaLogViewer/download/)
He only charges $25 to register it. He only insists (hopes) you pay for it if used for commercial use.
AW
Once you get the initial data run from a bike, if the tune was close (say a good v-tune), you could do a best line fit and back that into the VE table and be spot on. Just thinking outloud. :idea:
Quote from: bbrowncods on May 22, 2011, 04:45:36 PM
Once you get the initial data run from a bike, if the tune was close (say a good v-tune), you could do a best line fit and back that into the VE table and be spot on. Just thinking outloud. :idea:
Are you talking about data smoothing of the VE tables? The problem with doing that is figuring out if there is a matching dip in MAP that is in sync with a rise in the VE. The problem may be driven by the code sampling the MAP signal at the wrong time in the 720 degrees of crank shaft rotation. I would have to create a special function in MLV to demonstrate that in a scatter graph.
You may be able to get there if you have an old version of TTS that gave the MAP Default in the data feed. It may still be in VTune data feed.
AW
Here is a typical data log that ca be done with any version of TTS and any version of MLV.
Notice that the rider jumps on the throttle twice with somewhat different results out of the injectors. Keep in mind that this is .3 sec resolution so some of the detail gets lost like the spike in BPW that should have showed up with AE setting in.
(http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/DataLogStrangThingsHappen.jpg)
All traces can freeze the range. Not just autorange everything like more cheesy software. Up to 16 traces can be viewed in sync at the same time. All zooming is dynamic. You can create any new field based on any of the the available fields. The new registered stuff does scatter graphs. With a little coaxing, I bet you guy could get Phil to do auto tuning (at least on the VE side of things) if enough people ask nice. At least to the point of copy/paste back into TTS.
Have fun tuning
AW
Check out the difference between this stock bagger timing trace vs the timing map the bike above was running.
Stock Timing Map
http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/StockBaggerTimingMap.jpg (http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/StockBaggerTimingMap.jpg)
Tuner Timing Map Note the cross in the center is simply the bike running with the cruse control on and getting lots of data at just one RPM and lots of different loads.
http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/BT_TTS%20TimingMap.jpg (http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/BT_TTS%20TimingMap.jpg)
AW
In your post 12 the difference in PW between the two full throttle events can be attributed to the Accel Enrichment being more pronounced on the first event verses the second. It would be interesting to see with Accel Enrich turned off.
There is absolutly no contact number for "Phil" Do you have one? I got some questions about this and how to get the scan data from TTS to megalogviewer. How many computers can I put it on with one registration key? I'm not sending $25 to no one I can't contact on the phone.
:agree:
I downloaded the beat viewer at http://www.efianalytics.com/TunerStudio/beta/ (http://www.efianalytics.com/TunerStudio/beta/)
But some help on viewing TTS files would go a long ways.
Phil is easiest to get by email. He allows you to put it on a couple of your own computers. He is nor really that concerned provided your licens starts coming from all over the country as if you gave your license to all your friends. He can see that by IP address on updates....
You guys may have grown accustomed to dealing with people that are far more interested in the mighty dollar. Phil gave that program away for the first three years till it got to be his second full time job. He was head of the internet security for a HUGE international bank with banks of programmers under him when he retired at about 40 to do this for fun.
AW
To 'unlock' the beta... $49.95
I have been using the megalog viewer since 2003, back when I was using the DTT ecm. I have found it to be a wonderful tool to look at the data, up to 12 lines at a time.
To look at the TTS data you have to take your scan data file open it in the datamaster program check how many frames of data you have recorded, it will be on the bottom line of the window after the date and time. Example 16590/980 keep the 16590 which is the number of frames collected.
From the file dropdown menu click on export data that opens a new screen called export data. You will see boxes start rec: 0 and count 1. In the count box put the 16590 in the box if you want the entire file.
The next boxes down show the items it will export.
The 4Th column over begins a series of drop down items you can look at. select from the menu what you want to see. They keep going to the right side and you can end up with all options selected.
Now click on the extract button and you will see the hour glass briefly and the program will say finished data extraction on the bottom of the window.
Now from the file dropdown select save as comma separated file (CSV) a new window pops up and It will ask you to name that file. Example XYZ now click on save that window disappears and you are done with the TTS programs you have opened so you can close them.
The file you just created is in my documents, the tts folder, datamaster, export data.
You should now find the XYZ.csv file you just created. You will need to modify the microsoft Excel csv file by opening it in Excel and right click on column B to highlight it and now left click on column B and select delete that will remove the frame time HH:MM:SS ####### will be directly under HH;MM:SS. The C column now moves over and takes the place of the original B.
Megalog dose not use hours minutes and seconds data, now save the CSV file and use the same name or add a additional letter or number and have both copy's. So I will say XYZa as the new name and close Excel.
Now from the megalog viewer file drop down box select open and select the location of this saved file in, My documents,TTS, HD, datamaster, export data, XYZa.csv.
I have a registerd copy of Megalog viewer and was able to down load the beta version no extra cost. I just checked mega log viewer is 24.99 I think Wurk_Truk was looking at Tuner Studio for 49.99 a difrent program entirely, a easy mistake.
You do not have to have Microsoft Excel to edit the csv file. You can use a free version of Staroffice calc. to do this. I just checked it this morning.
Of course you are right... Thank you very much, BTW. :up:
Keep in mind that in the meagsquirt world ( this includes MegaLogWorld) when playing with the beta stuff, things change real fast and there is very little to no documentation on this stuff. Once the stuff goes release, big changes will get mentioned on the megasquirt forums. Keep in mind, in that world, most everyone is either a programmer, a tuner, or an electrical engineer and they tend to thrive on the bleeding edge. Some are all three. People with huge egos and full of BS tend to get weeded out fast.
Have fun tuning.
AW
Quote from: cts1950 on May 23, 2011, 06:53:36 PM
Megalog dose not use hours minutes and seconds data,
If your not using the time stamps how can you tell what is going on with the data? Since the data rate will vary it plays a big role in analyzing the data properly.
Quote from: Steve Cole on May 24, 2011, 09:29:14 AM
Quote from: cts1950 on May 23, 2011, 06:53:36 PM
Megalog dose not use hours minutes and seconds data,
If your not using the time stamps how can you tell what is going on with the data? Since the data rate will vary it plays a big role in analyzing the data properly.
MegalogViewer uses the next column over, the time stamp column which is expressed in seconds from the start of the data collection.
I have been look at the data from a member that tuned his bike by using the standard TTS method. The owner that tuned his own bike is a self proclaimed computer challenged tuner. For those people that feel overwhelmed, yes it can be done without a dyno by following the directions.
Wow is the late drive by wire code better that the stuff that the Sporty guys a forced to put up with. The o2 feedback algorithms are way better. The VE tables are all Speed-Density Based as they should have been all along. These two basic changes have transformed the tune-ability of these bikes.
(http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/BT_TTS_Datalog.jpg)
Does anyone know for sure if the BPW is the actual pulse width as measured at the injector with a scope?
AW
So what do the graphs mean? ie what is good/bad what should they look like etc. Oh and as Mayor can attest to way more then just computer challenged LOL thanks jeff
Look at this trace compared to your trace. Notice what the Pulse width trace looks like on the Sporty compared to yours. I did change the scale on that part of the trace so don't let that throw you. The scales is labeled on the left.
(http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/SportyInClosedLoopAvg.jpg)
AW
Wow, that DOES look quite different. I'm glad I don't have a Sporty... I'm retarded enuff as it is. :hyst:
On the sporty graph, the rear BPW looks like the mirror image of the front? Am I reading that right?
Quote from: Doghouse on May 29, 2011, 09:35:33 AM
On the sporty graph, the rear BPW looks like the mirror image of the front? Am I reading that right?
They are coupled and it was a piece of poor judgment on someone at Harley. I have been told by people on the inside that it was done to get around EPA requirements and manage to make the Sporty to feel like new customers would expect a Harley to feel. I have not data logged the latest version of Sporty code to see if MOCO ever elected fixed it.
AW
Andy,
Why would the MOCO "fix" something they purposely did?
Maybe thy don't think it's broken?
Maybe I'm not understanding what you said?
Bob
Quote from: FLTRI on May 29, 2011, 12:36:23 PM
Andy,
Why would the MOCO "fix" something they purposely did?
Maybe thy don't think it's broken?
Maybe I'm not understanding what you said?
Bob
My question is why would they screw it up on purpose? That makes about as much sense as making the tires not round to get the handling to feel bad.
AW
Lets assume you are riding along at 11ms of pulse width and you are at 16 AFR. Lets say you are in a VE cell that is set to 50. Your first ms of commanded pulse width is wasted for opening up the injector so you will get 10 ms of spray time.
Now thru the magic of EFI tuning you increase the VE to 100. The new pulse width will be 21ms. The ECU knows all about the 1ms opening time so it knew that you wanted 20ms of spray time and 1ms of opening time for a total of 21ms
Now the new AFR is 16AFR/2 or an 8AFR. At 3ms a change of .5 ms is a huge swing in AFR given no other changes in the basic sensors.
EFI really is that simple.
AW
Quote from: whittlebeast on May 29, 2011, 02:40:01 PM
I have been told by people on the inside that it was done to get around EPA requirements and manage to make the Sporty to feel like new customers would expect a Harley to feel.
Quote from: whittlebeast on May 29, 2011, 02:40:01 PM
My question is why would they screw it up on purpose? That makes about as much sense as making the tires not round to get the handling to feel bad.
You made a statement explaining the purpose of this tuning strategy, then ask why?? :scratch:
Bob
Apparently Harley felt they got burned by having the Vrod too good and was afraid that the new EFI on the Sporty that was fully sorted would feel too much like a rice cruiser.
They also took something like 40% of the brakes out of the bike as the engineers designed it to get the photos shoot to look better.
AW
Quote from: Doghouse on May 29, 2011, 09:35:33 AM
On the sporty graph, the rear BPW looks like the mirror image of the front? Am I reading that right?
They switch opposing one another to keep the torque fluctuations from being objectionable as it switches from rich to lean and vice versa. It is a function of every closed loop EFI system. V8 engines do it on a bank to bank basis. Ours just do it on a cylinder to cylinder basis.
Quote from: blusmbl on May 29, 2011, 06:27:28 PM
Quote from: Doghouse on May 29, 2011, 09:35:33 AM
On the sporty graph, the rear BPW looks like the mirror image of the front? Am I reading that right?
They switch opposing one another to keep the torque fluctuations from being objectionable as it switches from rich to lean and vice versa. It is a function of every closed loop EFI system. V8 engines do it on a bank to bank basis. Ours just do it on a cylinder to cylinder basis.
That is my understanding as well. :up:
Bob
In theory that is correct but it is all about the percentages and speed of implementation. The older codes in the Big Twins do the same coupled hunting but about faster and and continues at this rate under all situations. The Sportys code gets real slow at highway speeds.
Here is a typical BT in roughly the same situation as the Sporty trace above. This is more workable but still not as good as the DBW bike posted above.
(http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/O2FeedbackBT.jpg)
AW
Quote from: whittlebeast on May 30, 2011, 04:34:46 AM
...The Sportys code gets real slow at highway speeds...
Can you explain how you have determined the Sporty code speed gets affected by vehicle speeds?
In your opinion why have the MOCO calibrators chose to deviate from their successful tuning strategies used on the BT's?
Thanks,
Bob
PS - While I haven't tuned anywhere near the number of EFI Sportys compared to BT's I have found tuning the Sporty's takes a bit longer to get low speed drivebility smooth as compared to the BT's but achievable.
Phil got the 3D stuff working. Way cool. This opens an entire new world of easy data analysis and tuning EFI.
This happens to be data off my sporty. The data looses a little detail in low resolution JPGs. :(
(http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/MLV_SportyColor_01.jpg)
(http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/MLV_SportyColor_02.jpg)
there you go I just keep getting dumber by the day lol.
Quote from: whittlebeast on June 09, 2011, 07:40:46 PM
...This opens an entire new world of easy data analysis and tuning EFI.
I'm the guy for easy! Please explain the down and dirty of how it's used.
Thanks,
Bob
CTS1950 gave directions in post 19 on getting TTS data to the glass.
The software has to be registered to do the scatter graphs and you need the beta stuff from.
http://www.efianalytics.com/MegaLogViewer/beta/ (http://www.efianalytics.com/MegaLogViewer/beta/)
At this point the really cool stuff is still beta software and may be a little buggy. That runs in the territory with beta stuff.
Andy
Quote from: Jeffd on June 09, 2011, 07:44:59 PM
there you go I just keep getting dumber by the day lol.
:hyst: :hyst: :hyst: :hyst:
Ain't THAT the truth.
I'm going to go ahead and get this. With Andy and CTS around... I can ask a ton of dumb questions! :bike: :bike:
Andy,
What I was looking for was hopefully you would take the scatter graph (3D) you posted (Reply#40) and explain how to look at it and draw conclusions that make it east to tune. :nix:
Bob
I don't come in here very often but those graphs are very interesting.
I spent some time wondering about why the pulse widths would be so scattered on the untuned or badly tuned bike and so tight on the well-tuned bike.
I think I have it, and feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
The original factory tune shows a fairly tight graph. You could tune the bike to make it better due to the variations in production parts.
Then you swap cams etc and download a reasonable starting map, but that is all it is because you will rarely find a starting map that matches your exact build. The poor old ECU now does its' very best to match the figures the map is telling it to match. And it can't, so the pulse widths are all over the place as the ECU tries to match something that it can't match.
Tune it, and the pulse widths are tight again and the bike runs well.
Quote from: PC_Hater on June 10, 2011, 12:47:45 AM
I don't come in here very often but those graphs are very interesting.
I spent some time wondering about why the pulse widths would be so scattered on the untuned or badly tuned bike and so tight on the well-tuned bike.
I think I have it, and feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
The original factory tune shows a fairly tight graph. You could tune the bike to make it better due to the variations in production parts.
Then you swap cams etc and download a reasonable starting map, but that is all it is because you will rarely find a starting map that matches your exact build. The poor old ECU now does its' very best to match the figures the map is telling it to match. And it can't, so the pulse widths are all over the place as the ECU tries to match something that it can't match.
Tune it, and the pulse widths are tight again and the bike runs well.
You are really close with that description. Just remember that a good VE table holds the line tight and a smooth AFR table slides the line vertical. Poorly designed intakes and exhaust systems make this a bigger challenge.
3D scatter graphing gives you the ability to find what things drive other things like does the line get fuzzy at certain throttle positions only. What about certain speeds. What about when the engine temp goes above 400. That sort of thing.
On my other bike, there are 4 timing maps as the bike goes thru different gears. You can find that type of EFI BS.
AW
Quote from: FLTRI on June 09, 2011, 08:42:17 PM
Andy,
What I was looking for was hopefully you would take the scatter graph (3D) you posted (Reply#40) and explain how to look at it and draw conclusions that make it east to tune. :nix:
Bob
Bob, this is the same motor as in post 7 but now with 3d graphing. I tried several different different things as the third dimension. Other things I tried were throttle position, and vehicle speed. The two that jumped out at me as having an apparent effect were spark advance and engine speed. My guess is that the exhaust has a strange resonance that is very engine speed dependent that is making only the rear cylinder difficult to tune. At least now we have an idea where to start looking.
Keep in mind that Phill only released this yesterday so I am just now starting to play with this stuff. I convinced him a few weeks ago that this could be huge so he slammed something together to play with. It sure looks like it worked out. He is going to take on zooming next so that you could see patterns like in the bottom left corner on the trace where the injectors are turning on and off. The adjustments for that suff are huge in tuneability of a motor and are sadly still treated as Harley Hidden Tables.
(http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/MLV_Beta_BPWvsMAP_BigTroubleColor.jpg)
Hope this helps
AW
This is a little sobering. This is the rear timing map on the right and the rear knock map on the left on the same motor. This is the sort of thing that would make a race team poweretrain engineer stay awake at night.
(http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/MLV_Beta_BPWvsMAP_TimingKnockColor.jpg)
how would the bt in post 25 look in3d?
Quote from: Jeffd on June 10, 2011, 03:45:46 AM
how would the bt in post 25 look in3d?
(http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/MLV_Jeffd.jpg)
better yet what does it all mean/show? thanks jeff
Quote from: Jeffd on June 10, 2011, 04:23:47 AM
better yet what does it all mean/show? thanks jeff
Those scattered graphs mean that the bike is not in an optimum state of tune.
Compare the smearing in the graph above your post with the relatively clean dots in the post above that.
As to how you improve the 'smeared' bike - dunno. Fit a carb and forget all about it seems best...
I create attractive but meaningless graphs for my company every day. Unless WB starts explaining them, they will remain just pretty pictures to most.
Quote from: PC_Hater on June 10, 2011, 05:24:30 AM
Quote from: Jeffd on June 10, 2011, 04:23:47 AM
better yet what does it all mean/show? thanks jeff
Those scattered graphs mean that the bike is not in an optimum state of tune.
Compare the smearing in the graph above your post with the relatively clean dots in the post above that.
As to how you improve the 'smeared' bike - dunno. Fit a carb and forget all about it seems best...
So post 49 looks cleaner then post 51? just trying to understand this stuff lol.
Quote from: Doghouse on June 10, 2011, 05:41:05 AM
I create attractive but meaningless graphs for my company every day. Unless WB starts explaining them, they will remain just pretty pictures to most.
Engineering is all about finding what things are functions of something else. And recognizing/determining what is the cause and what is the effect.
This is the sort of thing I am looking at in a system that has high resolution on board data logging. This is at 100 data points per sec. The spikes you see in the MAP is driven by misfires in the ignition system showing up in the logs.
http://www.ncs-stl.com/mustangms3/SP32-20110607-055216.jpg (http://www.ncs-stl.com/mustangms3/SP32-20110607-055216.jpg)
AW
This is cool. Look how the AFR gradually fades from 14.6 to 12.5 as the power comes on.
(http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/MLV_SportyTargetAFR.jpg)
The 74 cubic inches of the Sportster are inefficiently used even for an old wobble fire design.
Doing other Sportster things but paying attention.
About time to wake up the Sportster.
Looks like there the engine runs richer in lighter loads than heavier loads?
ie: ~27/40MAP @ ~2pw
Still looking for your explaination of how these scatter graphs make it easier to tune...as a tool.
Bob
I guess I am a little confused a what is throwing you.
PW is essentially torque. Duty cycle is essentially HP. The higher the PW or Duty, the higher the target AFR should be.
Timing is generally driven by the speed of the flame front and the speed of he motor and to some degree the air fuel mixture.
Detonation is generally the spontaneous combustion of hot fuel and air under high heat and pressure. It must be avoided at all cost. Locating it is the first step in avoiding it.
Data logging is simply the tool that we use to look for the patterns.....
AW
Check out the difference in these three timing maps.
Stock Sportster timing map
(http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/MLV_Timing_StockSporty.jpg)
Stock BT timing map
(http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/MLV_Timing_StockBT.jpg)
My Sporty Timing map
(http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/MLV_Timing_Sporty.jpg)
I have been playing around with the scatter graphs. I have been looking at fast retard events and this shows them clearly. the cursor on the left graph is showing 3068 rpms and 65.8 kpa and the red tone of the dots show a 8 degree fast retard. This helps you to zoom in on a entire data run and see the problem spots.
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
Quote from: Jeffd on June 10, 2011, 06:04:55 AM
Quote from: PC_Hater on June 10, 2011, 05:24:30 AM
Quote from: Jeffd on June 10, 2011, 04:23:47 AM
better yet what does it all mean/show? thanks jeff
Those scattered graphs mean that the bike is not in an optimum state of tune.
Compare the smearing in the graph above your post with the relatively clean dots in the post above that.
So post 49 looks cleaner then post 51? just trying to understand this stuff lol.
I think that post 49 looks cleaner than post 51.
There is an immense amount of information in this thread. It took me more than an hour to work out what was going on so I could make a 'sensible' first post and not make myself look a complete idiot. And then the later graphs and comments add yet more info! Happily my EFI bike is MM and my other bikes have carbs so I don't have to worry about this stuff too much. My girlfriends EFI Sportster runs a bit too rough at cruise for our liking so I'm reading these threads as a primer in case we have to get the thing tuned just to make it run right in standard factory trim.
I suppose I should add that with a background in electronics and software I know that if I put the effort in I will understand it. If you don't have enough science or maths or practical hands on experience then it will be a very steep learning curve.
Whittlebeast,
By the looks of your tuned Sportster and the stock BT, the Sportster has come a long way and still has a bit of improvement to go.
Is the Sportster near as good as it can be?
What % of the table is the Sportster closed loop?
Quote from: whittlebeast on June 10, 2011, 10:22:03 PM
I guess I am a little confused a what is throwing you.
PW is essentially torque. Duty cycle is essentially HP. The higher the PW or Duty, the higher the target AFR should be.
Timing is generally driven by the speed of the flame front and the speed of he motor and to some degree the air fuel mixture.
Detonation is generally the spontaneous combustion of hot fuel and air under high heat and pressure. It must be avoided at all cost. Locating it is the first step in avoiding it.
Data logging is simply the tool that we use to look for the patterns.....
AW
QuoteThis opens an entire new world of easy data analysis and tuning EFI.
I'm thinking the old DataMaster recording for timing works very well at seeing detonation issues.
Just not seeing where your above statement applies. :scratch:
Bob
Quote from: cts1950 on June 11, 2011, 09:00:00 AM
I have been playing around with the scatter graphs. I have been looking at fast retard events and this shows them clearly. the cursor on the left graph is showing 3068 rpms and 65.8 kpa and the red tone of the dots show a 8 degree fast retard. This helps you to zoom in on a entire data run and see the problem spots.
CTS1850 Here is how I like to look at a bike with knock issues. Notice when your bike has knock, the timing is already pulled back. This is really starting to look like a serious mechanical or cooling issue.
(http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/MLV_SparkKnock.jpg)
Note that this all looks far better on the screen as apposed to a screen "Potty mouth" that looses all sorts of detail.
Hope this helps
AW
FLTRI
I realize that some people are skeptical that we can learn anything from scatter graphs. I have been messing with these for the last couple of days looking at data logs the I received from quite a few different people. I find the data logs from the stock bikes and their timing maps the most interesting. At times, the factory maps defy logic. There must be underlying logic but I have yet to get my head around it.
On paper, the Sporty is very similar to the BT motors. I would have never expected to see so much difference in the base maps. As in all of engineering, it tends to get messy at first but eventually it get easier once you realize what things are functions of some else. Often the relationships are difficult to find and then document.
Have fun tuning.
AW
Quote from: whittlebeast on June 12, 2011, 07:09:55 AM
FLTRI
I realize that some people are skeptical that we can learn anything from scatter graphs....
Not skeptical just trying to figure how the time needed to properly tune a bike can be sped up by studying these graphs. :scratch:
Been asking the same question but no answer. I agree these graphs are very interesting and can provide quite a bit of understanding what is happening, but that was not my concern. It's all about always being open to new, more efficient methods of tuning. I have worked very hard over the years to develop tuning procedures and techniques that net better tunes in less time.
QuoteI find the data logs from the stock bikes and their timing maps the most interesting. At times, the factory maps defy logic. There must be underlying logic but I have yet to get my head around it.
You must understand stock calibrations are developed to pass emissions regs NOT best performance.
After some 12+ years of observing and learning how these calibrations work, not to mention pestering SC for many years it has become very appearant there are strategies strictly developed for reduced emissions ONLY in the stock cals...some of which disregard logic and performance strategies.
Quote...once you realize what things are functions of some else
This is preciselywhat SC has been preaching all along...usually when someone notices and posts observations that the result was not as expected.
Bob
Yep. This have everything to do with the relationship between ALL of the tables. Most of us are in fact tuning for the best overall package regarding creating a good running total package. Decent emissions is a byproduct of a good performance/overall tune. This method has the ability to find places when tables are fighting each other and causing non smooth flowing plots.
AW
Quote from: whittlebeast on June 12, 2011, 08:43:42 AM
...This method has the ability to find places when tables are fighting each other and causing non smooth flowing plots.
AW
Ok then. I think I got it now. You weren't meaning actual tuning becomes easier...what you meant was when you can't get a bike to respond as you expect, you can use these scatter graphs to figure/see out why?
Next question: Once you have discovered "tables are fighting each other" how do you change/correct it? AFAIK, unless you are privy to the code and can actually change it you are really looking for a way around the perceived issue(s)?
Bob
Sometimes it is easy as when the closed throttle timing map is very different from the main timing map. Other times it is in the Harley Hidden Tables and without access to the code or the hidden table, the only choice is "try a different base map". This may help to idnetify the issue (or at least find it) that is the root of the problem. Just think about the the tables that were uncovered in the MT8 versions that in the days of the SERTs were kept a secret. Things like the power enrichment logic that was brought up about 3 years ago. In the SERT days, it was a Harley hidden table. This stuff would make that sort of thing jump out at a trained eye.
AW
Quote from: whittlebeast on June 12, 2011, 09:06:43 AM
Sometimes it is easy as when the closed throttle timing map is very different from the main timing map. Other times it is in the Harley Hidden Tables and without access to the code or the hidden table, the only choice is "try a different base map". This may help to idnetify the issue (or at least find it) that is the root of the problem. Just think about the the tables that were uncovered in the MT8 versions that in the days of the SERTs were kept a secret. Things like the power enrichment logic that was brought up about 3 years ago. In the SERT days, it was a Harley hidden table. This stuff would make that sort of thing jump out at a trained eye.
AW
Still looking for these scatter graphs to be the holy grail for tuning but am getting the feeling you may have meant something more like these scatter graphs can be used for diagnosis and studying why things happen.
I was looking for the "much easier to tune" portion of your statement.
My misunderstanding/misinterpretation.
Happy scatter graphing, :wink:
Bob
Here is an example of a typical motor with a fairly peaky cam/exhaust. The motor has very different fueling requirements at higher RPMs. It turns out that this motor is running closed loop till about 55 KPA and close to stoich up to about 80 KPA.
(http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/MLV_PeakyMotor.jpg)
Based on the MAP vs RPM the rider is running the motor quite hard.
AW
Andy
While scatter graphs look all nice and pretty, please explain how this is going to improve tuning or improve the tuning process to help the DIY guy let alone a professional tuner get there job done?
Quote from: Steve Cole on June 12, 2011, 12:40:07 PM
Andy
While scatter graphs look all nice and pretty, please explain how this is going to improve tuning or improve the tuning process to help the DIY guy let alone a professional tuner get there job done?
Have you downloaded the software and played with it? Some of the patterns and the differences from one motor to the next are amazing.
Quote from: whittlebeast on June 12, 2011, 12:58:31 PM
Quote from: Steve Cole on June 12, 2011, 12:40:07 PM
Andy
While scatter graphs look all nice and pretty, please explain how this is going to improve tuning or improve the tuning process to help the DIY guy let alone a professional tuner get there job done?
Have you downloaded the software and played with it? Some of the patterns and the differences from one motor to the next are amazing.
No need to download and purchase it if it is not going to help the DIY customer. Since I can do 3d scatter graphs in house it's of no use to me personally.
How about you answer my questions so the DIY guy knows why he would want to purchase a program to do 3d scatter graphs to help him do a better tuning job or improve his tuning process."Here is a textbook example of an autotuning software that has given the apparently wrong answer. This tune was generated by following VTune standard procedure to the tee. We opened up the data to look around and this is what we found. The rear cylinder is quit normal but the front tune appears to be a mess. Without looking at the data, the owner would have had no clue something had gone wrong."
"Not just autorange everything like more cheesy software. Up to 16 traces can be viewed in sync at the same time. All zooming is dynamic. You can create any new field based on any of the the available fields."
"3D scatter graphing gives you the ability to find what things drive other things like does the line get fuzzy at certain throttle positions only. What about certain speeds. What about when the engine temp goes above 400. That sort of thing."Your making all kinds of bold statements/claims, I've quoted just a few of what you have made in this very thread, but now its time to put up or shut up so to speak. You have repeatedly left out all the important points as well. You seem to just skim over the fact that you can only graph what comes from the DataMaster program (in this case)so your not in control of whats going on and I have repeatedly told you that the data rate is way too slow for what you are trying to do. Nothing you or I can do about that unless you hook up a real datalogger and collect the data that way. Answer the questions or drop the BS Andy. There is a place where 3d graphs help but unless you can show us just how it's going to help the DIY guy or professional tuner this is NOT one of them.
My guess is that you don't believe political exit poles either.... The only time they have trouble getting things correct is when lots of people feel it is in their best interest to lie to the guys taking the sample.
AW
Quote from: whittlebeast on June 12, 2011, 01:48:12 PM
My guess is that you don't believe political exit poles either.... The only time they have trouble getting things correct is when lots of people feel it is in their best interest to lie to the guys taking the sample.
AW
Andy
You come here and try and tell people things and all I ask is that you backup your claims, instead you BS them and try to confuse them. You are dancing around giving answers for one of two reasons, you either know the answer and are afraid to tell people or you really do not know and understand how it all works!
I have told you over and over again that the sample rate is too slow to give meaningful results for the things you are trying to do. Since there is NOTHING you can do about it your assumptions can be and are flatout wrong! Let's look at it and maybe you can understand it this time. The data rate coming from the ECM is ~ 4 frames per second. At 6000 RPM you have 50 engine firing cycles per second per cylinder. Since you only get to see 4 out of 50 that's only 8% of the data you need! Now you do not even know what 8% your getting for sure. If you want to make assumptions on only looking at 8% of what is going on then be my guest, but for those of you reading here it's not going to work very well.
Look at the graphs he has posted and now understand that at lower engine RPM you're seeing more of the data (~25%) but once you get to
6000 RPM 92% of the real data is missing! Do you really want to make a decision with 92% of the data missing? Wonder why his graphs look like they do at higher RPM.......... its pretty obvious when you understand what is missing. Its not the fault of the graphing software but the assumptions Andy is trying to show you from the software is his fault.
2000 RPM = 16.6 engine firing cycles per second per cylinder
3000 RPM = 25 engine firing cycles per second per cylinder
4000 RPM = 33.3 engine firing cycles per second per cylinder
5000 RPM = 41.6 engine firing cycles per second per cylinder
6000 RPM = 50 engine firing cycles per second per cylinder
Now that you all understand the ECM is only going to get about 4 frames per second you can begin to see what percent of data is missing versus what is really going on to what you are going to see in the data. So how would all the missing data fill in the graphs? Making assumptions not understanding what your missing is going to hurt you in a lot of cases. There is a place and time for fancy graphs and other features but you first have to understand what your working with prior to implementing them if they are not going to work and confuse the issue more than they are going to help. Due to the sample rate the ECM works at for scan data you need to limit things to what is useful and NOT try and confuse the issue. If we could get the ECM sample rate up to 60-100 samples per second things would be different. The industry standard for getting accurate data is a minimum of 2 times the highest speed signal. Critical data is 5 times the highest speed. So at 6000 RPM that would be 100 samples per second minimum!
Quote from: whittlebeast on June 12, 2011, 01:48:12 PM
My guess is that you don't believe political exit poles either.... The only time they have trouble getting things correct is when lots of people feel it is in their best interest to lie to the guys taking the sample.
AW
:hyst: :hyst:
Gotta admit Andy, you seem to be politically oriented and trained. Never answer the question asked...get 'em to look under a different cup. :wink:
Bob
Yes I do listen to a lot of political based news. This place has taught my to not talk in ultimatums. Use words like "appears to be", usually, normally, and often. Not words like always and never.
AW
Wow, quite a flurry of invective. I hope you all feel better. But I doubt it, human nature what it is.
When ever I hear a blast of that intensity it clues me that there is some truth to what is going on.
Whittlebeast, you are on to something, no doubt.
Why are we here?
Here to learn tuning, here to learn tuning, want a closed loop screaming Sporty (have a roaring open loop Sporty). See, some of us are simple.
Steve,
You state in post 78 that "If we could get the ECM sample rate up to 60-100 samples per second things would be different. The industry standard for getting accurate data is a minimum of 2 times the highest speed signal. Critical data is 5 times the highest speed. So at 6000 RPM that would be 100 samples per second minimum!"
If this is true, and I believe it is, then how does TTS auto tune? I mean if the rate is too slow for 3D graphs that would allow us to see trends, then how accurate is auto tuning at the same rate?
Just trying to understand!
You have to understand what the data is that you are seeing and then interpret it correctly. With the data rate being what it is, causes us to have to get enough data in a given area to be able to make corrections. This is why you have to get the cells filled in correctly when recording data with DataMaster. It is also the reason why when Vtune takes the data to create the new VE tables you can see differences between what you saw when you collected the data in DataMaster. DataMaster only records the data the ECM sends out and does some basic sorting of the data to present it on the screen. Then when you use Vtune it has the code to really sort through all the data and toss out things that are not correct. It is not as simple as plot the raw data on a 3d screen! This can and does cause the results you see to look different between the two.
So what you are saying is:
If data is slow to collect, you can collect enough data over time, good and bad, then write code that identifies the bad, tosses it out, and leaves the good for analysis/processing?
So you have spent a lot of time testing, sampling, and actual street/dyno testing to figure out how to process the data stream to make v-tune work properly?
Bob
Without getting in to the details of how we do it, Yes. Collect enough data that you can filter out all the bad data then process the good data only, then create the new tune. It helps knowing how the ECM deals with the data a little too. It's not a simple thing to do and get it to come out right and not knowing what data to filter out can make somethings look one way when they truely are not that way at all. You have to understand the limits of the system and work around them the best you can
You side steped the question.
What did I side step? I answered everything that was asked but I am not going to tell you or anyone else how to do it. That's why we include the tool to do it as part of our programming system.
Quote from: bbrowncods on June 12, 2011, 09:59:08 PM
Steve,
You state in post 78 that "If we could get the ECM sample rate up to 60-100 samples per second things would be different. The industry standard for getting accurate data is a minimum of 2 times the highest speed signal. Critical data is 5 times the highest speed. So at 6000 RPM that would be 100 samples per second minimum!"
If this is true, and I believe it is, then how does TTS auto tune? I mean if the rate is too slow for 3D graphs that would allow us to see trends, then how accurate is auto tuning at the same rate?
Just trying to understand!
Well Andy you just need to read post #83
Yep, you side stepped the question.
Nothing has been side stepped. I've told everyone how it works as an overview and I am not willing to teach you how we do it. Where do you get side stepping out of that?
Hey I am not here to throw fuel on a fire. Just trying to understand.
My contention is there is no bad data. If you turn off Accel and decel, knock, and PE, then you have points that are data from the ECU that are actual events the engine has seen while running. These points occur at different engine temperatures, atmospheric conditions, loads, rpms, etc. Each point is valuable in its own right if you know the condition in which it was recorded.
Now being a engineer I know that when measuring a variable, O2 in the case of O2 sensors, you are introducing error. And we see that in this system. The placement, and the condition, of the sensor itself has a great deal of bearing on the quality of the measurement. I would assume that this is one of the parameters heavily dealt with in code.
Timing of the O2 sample is another error. The exhaust sample being read by the O2 sensor at time X did not come from the ignition event at time X, it came from an event at some time prior to X. Again, this might be negligible or significant depending on how the code treats the timing issue, i.e. is the engine in a "steady state" or "non-steady state".
So my point stands; all the data is valuable. If you can look at a 3D graph from a professionally, dyno-tuned bike, you might can identify good characteristics of some of the tables that can help one understand what is occurring. It may be the answer is there is no substitute for a dyno tune!
The problem here is we have a clash between those where this is a livelihood ($$$) and significant money has been invested into proprietary property, and those people (like me) that are interested in a more scientific way. I know that Steve talks in circles sometimes avoiding the question, because to answer it reveals to his competitors proprietary information. I have no problem with that. I also have no problem with what whittlebeast is doing to look at the data from a different point of view.
Thanks to both!!
Yes, I'm not going to tell you how we do it and I've said that many times. It took a lot of time, testing and equipment to develop our code to do the job.
You have to KNOW what data is good and what is not before you draw conclusions. If you want to learn this you need to use a datalogger that will run fast enough to do the job correctly and you need to sync the data with the events as they occur with the running engine. This means the data from the engine ECM and the external datalogger need to be in sync. Then and only then you can begin to figure what it takes to sort data properly.
I have no problem with people doing it on there own but I do have a problem if those same people make false and misleading claims about what they are doing.
"Here is a textbook example of an autotuning software that has given the apparently wrong answer. This tune was generated by following VTune standard procedure to the tee. We opened up the data to look around and this is what we found. The rear cylinder is quit normal but the front tune appears to be a mess. Without looking at the data, the owner would have had no clue something had gone wrong."
"Not just autorange everything like more cheesy software. Up to 16 traces can be viewed in sync at the same time. All zooming is dynamic. You can create any new field based on any of the the available fields."
"3D scatter graphing gives you the ability to find what things drive other things like does the line get fuzzy at certain throttle positions only. What about certain speeds. What about when the engine temp goes above 400. That sort of thing."
If Andy can show where a 3d scatter graph or any of his other claims will help the DIY or professional Tuner, tune faster or better as he has claimed then let's here it. If not then he needs to withdraw those claims.
I think Steve has divulged much more about his product than about any other proprietary device or objects owner has. I know I asked Colonel Sanders once how he made such good chicken and he ignored me LOL.
Quote from: whittlebeast on June 10, 2011, 04:45:10 PM
This is cool. Look how the AFR gradually fades from 14.6 to 12.5 as the power comes on.
(http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/MLV_SportyTargetAFR.jpg)
I would still like to know how looking at this info in this form can help me? Lets take the left graph. I have seen this in a simple 2d line graph showing these 3 things. Software is cheap enough. I just don't understand what can be taking out of this by looking at the 3 plots this way. Granted it looks cool, but moving my pointer in datamaster and plugging the info into another tool helps. So looking at 6 different things being logged against time helps, but now I have to go down to only 3 data points?
I've done you a nice explanation of data sampling so you can see what Steve Cole is trying to say to Whittlebeast.
Google Nyquist, Shannon, and the Nyquist-Shannon Sampling Theorem.
Unless you sample at twice the frequency of the signal you want to measure you get terrible aliasing effects in the data. For 'aliasing' read 'garbage data'.
The signal you are trying to measure is noisy so you have to filter it because the high frequency noise gets aliased back into your data, and that causes problems too. Also, the very sharp filters used can cause amusing problems if you don't realise what is going on. The easy way around it - and for a real life example that we are all used to - all high quality audio is done this way - is to oversample it at 4 or even 8 times the frequency, even higher if your wallet can stand it.
As Steve Cole mentioned, and FLTRI understood, you can use mathematical techniques to side-step the immediate affects of the Nyquist-Shannon Sampling Theorem by collecting a lot of data sampled at too low a sampling rate.
Fo those thinking that Steve Cole is holding too much back, you can catch up and make some really good guesses by doing some reading. Start with any book on Digital Signal Processing. I found a nice paper called "Reconstruction of Undersampled Periodic Signals" written by Anthony J. Silva in 1986 and paid for by your tax dollars. Find it at http://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/4229/RLE-TR-514-17684999.pdf?sequence=1 (http://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/4229/RLE-TR-514-17684999.pdf?sequence=1)
And?
That is why big-boys toys data samplers are needed to see what is really going on before you start using your slower systems to actually control it. Then you use your big-boys toys again to see what sort of mess you have made. The ECU on the bike may run fast enough internally but it can't give you access to that internal data, you get a much slower data stream to look at that is distorted in a secret way by the internals of the ECU. The big-boys toys let you reverse-engineer it so you know what secret distortions have been done.
So, what use is any of this to FLTRI? (to pick on no-one in particular!)
By using the graphs to see what is going on when he tunes a bike he can then get a feel for those misbehaving bikes that will not play nicely. Gaining the extra experience takes time, and his many years of tuning may already have given him all he needs to know.
So, what use is any of this to sad-techie-geeks like me?
Interesting, fun, and if you are prepared to put the time in to understand what you are seeing and what the limitations are then go for it. For me personally life is too short to get into that detail. I would rather ride my bike or fix my flathead chop than faff about with EFI in that detail.
So, what use is any of this to your average HTTer?
None. No use at all. Adds yet more confusion to people grappling with EFI and maps and tables. Just take your bike to somebody who knows what they are doing.
All I can say is if you guys want to learn a bunch about EFI tuning, down load the software and register it, follow the CTS1950 instructions, and then look at quite a few before and after tuning plots. The patterns will start jumping out at you. Things are way better on a jumbo tron compared to the JPG screen shots I have been posting. The only people that love this stuff are the people that have tried this stuff.
Now that it is racing season I am rather tied up on several racecar projects, I will have little spare time to mess around sharing here.
AW
No Excuses!
Ha!
I like PC_Haters explanation too. Life is short. The Sporty runs good. Will get back with more detail in the off season.
Quote from: whittlebeast on June 14, 2011, 07:17:13 AM
All I can say is if you guys want to learn a bunch about EFI tuning, down load the software and register it, follow the CTS1950 instructions, and then look at quite a few before and after tuning plots. The patterns will start jumping out at you. Things are way better on a jumbo tron compared to the JPG screen shots I have been posting. The only people that love this stuff are the people that have tried this stuff.
Now that it is racing season I am rather tied up on several racecar projects, I will have little spare time to mess around sharing here.
AW
Lets see...I dont care to be a scientist at this time, so I'll pass.
For what it's worth, we tired this type of software in the labs, even to the point of coding it with in-house staff. It wasnt useful enough to warrant full use at all the labs or at any lab when it came down to it.
CE&D found it useful, for a while. So did DARPA, about 12 to 15 years ago.
The 3 scientist on staff said "nice", smiled and walked away. I remember that day. Funny for me, but the look of shock on the face of the guy who thought it would be the very thing needed......priceless.
It was simple! It would have been costly for the equipment. It would have required funding that at the time, would not happen.
And it didnt give us information that we didnt already have the means to obtain.
Mr. Rider 57,
All the more I think this is a key to diagnosing a flawed tune.
Like the out of place pulse in an otherwise smooth running machine, some feel it, some do not.
TTS Mastertune has made a decent enterprise coding the adaptations of the ecu into a file.
The point graph of this software reminds me of a hp/torque curve.
From the limited tuning software I have seen this may be a step to simplified tuning, time will tell.
Quote from: Rider57 on June 14, 2011, 10:19:11 AM
Lets see...I dont care to be a scientist at this time, so I'll pass.
For what it's worth, we tired this type of software in the labs, even to the point of coding it with in-house staff. It wasnt useful enough to warrant full use at all the labs or at any lab when it came down to it.
CE&D found it useful, for a while. So did DARPA, about 12 to 15 years ago.
The 3 scientist on staff said "nice", smiled and walked away. I remember that day. Funny for me, but the look of shock on the face of the guy who thought it would be the very thing needed......priceless.
It was simple! It would have been costly for the equipment. It would have required funding that at the time, would not happen.
And it didnt give us information that we didnt already have the means to obtain.
Been there, done that and wasted a load of time.
We spent a budgeted amount for a project for DARPA that allowed 3D graphing of ballistic coefficients.
They came to find out that there were too many variables to allow any useful data. We are not talking bad data, good data that had variables by design.
The same is true with engine efi systems. Variables are a part of the system. It is what it is.
Different valves, seats, fuel, ambients, wiring. Way too many. Time will tell as you state.
There is one advantage to the MegaLog software. It runs on OSX and linux as well as Windoze!
The graphs are pretty but until you understand what they are telling you they are meaningless.
We've all seen the ultrasonic scans that pregnant women are always so pleased with. Until you have seen a few of them it is impossible to see the baby in that monochrome semi-circular swirl of a picture.
The X-Ray of my leg was easy, even I could see that big lump wasn't meant to be there... (bone cyst, non-malignant, still there, tells me what the weather is up to, especially in winter)
Other X-Rays are just impossible to make sense of until you have been trained to see them properly.
PC_Hater
That is a great analogy. 2D graphing is the same thing. Once you know what looks normal, the motor that is in trouble jumps right out at you.
AW
Andy,
I think I have this figured out:
In the post you stated much easier tuning with these new 3D scatter graphs, I believe what you meant to convey it's a tool for easy diagnosing running issues NOT that it make tuning easier.
It was just your choice of words that threw a couple of us tuners. We're always looking for easier, faster, and more efficient tunes and when you made that statement we jumped on it for explanation.
Now that you and some other very qualified individuals posted we realize it is NOT the holy grail for tuning but IS another diagnostic too for the box.
Thanks for sharing,
Bob
When recording data for Vtune you need at least 30 hits in each cell to fully change the color to light green. When you fill as many cell to light green as you can then you merge the data collected with Vtune to nudge your tuning map in the direction the trimming functions of the ecm were trying. After multiple vtuning cycles the amount of change should be decreasing as you adjust the ve tables. About the filtering is not the 30 hits in each cell a form of filtering? We know the equipment is not able to collect data fast enough so our only option is to look at a mathematical average of what is going on. I would say that a scatter graph is just another tool to view what is going on. The heavy traces in the graphs show the areas that collected the most data the filtering has already been done by following the vtune ad described above. It is simple to ignore the single dots on the graph as noise but when you find clusters it is saying something you should pay attention to. I do not see why the argument over the method of viewing the results. I find I like the 2d graphs as well as the 3d I am just more accustomed to looking at the 2d.
Quote from: FLTRI on June 15, 2011, 09:11:55 AM
Andy,
I think I have this figured out:
In the post you stated much easier tuning with these new 3D scatter graphs, I believe what you meant to convey it's a tool for easy diagnosing running issues NOT that it make tuning easier.
It was just your choice of words that threw a couple of us tuners. We're always looking for easier, faster, and more efficient tunes and when you made that statement we jumped on it for explanation.
Now that you and some other very qualified individuals posted we realize it is NOT the holy grail for tuning but IS another diagnostic too for the box.
Thanks for sharing,
Bob
All true. :)
Keep in mind that the only tunes I get involved in any more are installs that other pro tuners gave up on or realize that the build is so far off the beaten path that they have no idea where to start. My Harley is just my wife's bike. The factory tune was so bad I could not stand riding it.
AW
Quote from: cts1950 on June 15, 2011, 09:19:40 AM
When recording data for Vtune you need at least 30 hits in each cell to fully change the color to light green. When you fill as many cell to light green as you can then you merge the data collected with Vtune to nudge your tuning map in the direction the trimming functions of the ecm were trying. After multiple vtuning cycles the amount of change should be decreasing as you adjust the ve tables. About the filtering is not the 30 hits in each cell a form of filtering? We know the equipment is not able to collect data fast enough so our only option is to look at a mathematical average of what is going on. I would say that a scatter graph is just another tool to view what is going on. The heavy traces in the graphs show the areas that collected the most data the filtering has already been done by following the vtune ad described above. It is simple to ignore the single dots on the graph as noise but when you find clusters it is saying something you should pay attention to. I do not see why the argument over the method of viewing the results. I find I like the 2d graphs as well as the 3d I am just more accustomed to looking at the 2d.
First off I want to say I only want people to learn the right way. When DataMaster is collecting all raw data and then it is filtering bad data out before it adds it onto the screen to fill in the cell data to Green. That is just a first level of sorting. Now when Vtune is used there is a lot more going on sorting the data and figuring it all out. A DataMaster recording has all the good and bad RAW data stored.
When you take the RAW data from the DataMaster collection and put it into a 3d scatter graph you are doing none of the above. What you are getting is 100% of the data with no filtering of good versus bad data and no Digital Signal Processing being done. That can and usually is misleading information from something that has had the data collected at too low of a sample rate. Maybe you can now understand why the two are completely different.
If you take a DataMaster Vtune recording and then open the Vtune Histogram. Look on the Histogram screen and you can turn off the first level sorting by unchecking the Data Filter Enabled box on the screen. Then if you click on the Start button you can playback the recording and see how fast the cells fill in. Then closed the Histogram and on the main form set the Rec# back to 0. Repeat the process with the Data Filter Enabled box now checked. You will see a large difference.
If you use our Sample_BigTwin data file included with the product with the filter uncheck you will get the first 289 data records filled in to the cells all of which are BAD data to use for tuning purposes. As it continues along you will get a total of 14,357 total hits. Now with the filter checked the first 289 are tossed out and at the end you only have a total of 9851 total hits. So there is a total of 4506 records of bad data (for tuning purposes) stored in the recording that you are plotting in an unfiltered 3d scatter plot. Vtune will now take this and sort it down further and then process the good data to get a result.
When you take the raw data and place it in a 3d scatter graph versus what Vtune does with the data they will look completely different.
Welcome to statical analysis and EFI tuning.
AW
Quote from: whittlebeast on June 15, 2011, 10:48:43 AM
Welcome to statical analysis and EFI tuning.
AW
Statical analysis does nothing if one does not use valid data to start with, and that is what I am trying to tell you. While I have a lot of tools that most do not it and I'm all for having more tools if it will help us do a better job. We also have to be aware of not confusing the people that use the tools in the field.
Steve
I have spent years looking at analogue displays and having to interpret them. Example marine radar displays. If you got worried about getting rid of all the sea clutter (noise) you had filters you could increase the gain on to reduce the unwanted targets on the screen. You could also turn up rain clutter to reduce the interference caused by the rain drops reflecting back the radar wave because they are almost the same size for the wavelength. Now that being said a experienced radar operator could tune a good radar for a fantastic amount of clarity. The problem is when you turn up the filters many operators will over do the filters so as to remove valid targets such as small boats. Most will allow a certain amount of noise to be viewed on the screen because you do not loose important data but learn what the difference between noise and real data. The scatter graph is a good example of a screen with noise and good data. A human brain is good at seeing patterns from the apparent noise. I do not believe you give the end users enough credit to use a tool we paid you good money for and find other ways to use it or display it. I know you are protecting your business but I do not think it is beneficial beat up on those who use your tool out side of your perceived box. It is the Harley way None of us are willing to leave our bikes alone or we would all be riding rice bikes, and there would no no need for TTS. I would say you should call it a feather in your cap that people are using your product and personalizing the way it is used. The end result is you sell more product.
I believe that one huge difference is that in the case of tuning a motorcycle engine, we can afford to cherry pick the data,
using only the best data for our purpose.
If you are targeted by a flotilla of MTBs, you cant afford to ignore ANY true info.
If we had not wanted you to be able to use other applications there would have been no reason for us to place the EXPORT function that you are using in DataMaster. We are happy that people think outside the box but at the same time need to make sure that those same people do not confuse the typical DIY tuning person trying to learn to tune. This is the perfect example of just that. I have no issue at all that a few are playing around with a scatter graphs but to come make bold statements as Whittlebeast has done, then when asked to backup any of it up he will not or cannot. The end user needs to learn how things work but they also need to look at the bigger picture and just not one small part of it. Had I not said anything about the data rate and explained what was missing who was going to bring it up? I've tried on several other threads to explain this in the past as well. It's a very important piece of the puzzle when looking at the raw data!
The product we have built is there for all to use as they see fit on there bike and I am sure that someone will find a different way to use it that will help everyone learn something new. This is what the product is based on, letting people use it and improving it as it grows. If I for one minute thought a scatter graph would help that it would be in the next release of the product as its fairly simple to do. The thing that we have to look at is where a new function can help and why. If we add something will it confuse the user more than it will help also has to be looked at.
With that in mind show us how the scatter graph lives up to the claims made in this thread, and where it gives the user a way to improve the end result. I'm all for having more tools to do a better job but not for having more tools just to have them.
People would be amazed at what they can see when they are open to looking....
Keep in mind most of the tuning I do is entirely done with data logs as in many cases I have never seen the car or bike that I am tuning. I seldom have any hard information on the cam, intake or exhaust. Most of that is derived by what the logs are telling me.
This is also done this way on the suspension tuning on racecars. The loggers I use can log between 20 hz and 360hz depending on what we are looking for.
AW
This thread was started to advertise his buddy's new product. Thats it. Fine. So answer some of the direct questions I have asked or others have asked. Give a number so we can ask the questions in a non forum format.
How is changing the format of the logged data to a 3D graph really going to help the pros or DIY guys? It's the same info. Just a different way of looking at it. $30 is an easy write off, but I'm not pissing it away. So, maybe I need a back to back comparison showing how this is a better way or easier or faster.
I think if the time was taken to do this. Several people would register the product. IMO
Quote from: whittlebeast on June 17, 2011, 10:29:04 AM
...This is also done this way on the suspension tuning on racecars. The loggers I use can log between 20 hz and 360hz depending on what we are looking for.
AW
FWIW, we found anything less than 500hz used for analyzing suspension movement is OK for ride height changes, roll, pitch, etc but worthless for shock speeds.
I spent the better part of 10 years analyzing data recorded for engine, suspension, and driver/rider evaluation for profession race teams.
Over my racing career I worked with many teams doing at track engineering for suspension and aero as well as engine and driver/rider performance.
I personally wouldn't attempt to work strictly off data logs to identify , evaluate, quantify and make final decisions without driver/rider inputs to gain a "feel" for the data I analyzed.
But then again I have never been, nor believed in desktop engineering.
Just not comparable to being there. I always want to see for myself and listen to the input from others involved and use that data when evaluating on-board logged data.
Just my $.02,
Bob
PS - Always looking for faster analysis and changes. :wink:
I still drive a shifter kart but my kid is faster.
A few people may get a kick out of this....
Here is a motor that I am tuning right now that has some serious dynamic range.
Three different screen shots of the same motor at different running conditions.
Driving home (small sample)
http://www.ncs-stl.com/mustangms3/MLV_ScatterGraph_01.jpg (http://www.ncs-stl.com/mustangms3/MLV_ScatterGraph_01.jpg)
Two pulls on the dyno
http://www.ncs-stl.com/mustangms3/MLV_ScatterGraph_02.jpg (http://www.ncs-stl.com/mustangms3/MLV_ScatterGraph_02.jpg)
Driving Home (Lots of data)
http://www.ncs-stl.com/mustangms3/MLV_ScatterGraph_03.jpg (http://www.ncs-stl.com/mustangms3/MLV_ScatterGraph_03.jpg)
Am I the only one here who doesn't realize the value of these graphs?? :scratch:
Been asking for explanation of their value but no specifics.
Come on Andy educate us and show us what you see in the scatter graphs.
Also can you stick with Harley engine data since this a Harley forum and we all want to learn about Harleys...not Mustangs. :wink:
Bob
Quote from: FLTRI on June 23, 2011, 05:59:12 PM
Am I the only one here who doesn't realize the value of these graphs?? :scratch:
Nope. But hey. He seems to be getting a kick out of it. Looking at colored graphs is one thing. Getting good, usable info? Completely different.
Quote from: FLTRI on June 23, 2011, 05:59:12 PM
Am I the only one here who doesn't realize the value of these graphs?? :scratch:
Been asking for explanation of their value but no specifics.
Come on Andy educate us and show us what you see in the scatter graphs.
Also can you stick with Harley engine data since this a Harley forum and we all want to learn about Harleys...not Mustangs. :wink:
Bob
You're not the only one. Like I say, every day I go to work and create really cool looking but mostly useless graphs. Stupid management types like pretty pictures and piles of useless metrics. They can then baffle the board and make themselves look smarter than they really are.
Personally, a stray PW or two isn't going to ruin my ride. What would interest me is if someone could take a scattergraph from a completely V-tuned bike, then have the same bike professionally dyno-tuned and another graph made for comparison, and then explain the differences in detail. Otherwise, I'll be more than completely satisfied to stick to using Datamaster and V-tune and have a great running engine.
Quote from: Doghouse on June 25, 2011, 05:33:57 PM
...What would interest me is if someone could take a scattergraph from a completely V-tuned bike, then have the same bike professionally dyno-tuned and another graph made for comparison, and then explain the differences in detail. Otherwise, I'll be more than completely satisfied to stick to using Datamaster and V-tune and have a great running engine.
:up: :idea: :up:
Bob
Man , if I wasn't confused about EFI tuning before , I sure am now. I have never done a map or tune or anything of the kind and this thread has certainly put a fear in me of ever touching this type of project.
I worked for M-B for 18 years back when fuel injection was the norm to us and a gleam in the eyes of the competition, diagnostics, repair and tunes where straight forward with acronyms at a minimum. This stuff is nuts, how does one even get their head around all the different systems, tools, maps, tunes, graphs, etc. I believe that all this is being over complicated to somehow pacify the industry ( I know nothing new there).
Technology moving to fast for us old guys I guess..
Quote from: War Horse on June 26, 2011, 10:23:33 AM
...This stuff is nuts, how does one even get their head around all the different systems, tools, maps, tunes, graphs, etc...
Being there from the beginning. Studying the systems. Have a passion for it. Asking/listening to those with experience and knowledge. :nix:
Bob
Having a passion for it and keeping current with information are the key, once you lose the passion and dont keep up for a while, there no catching up again. Technology is moving at a blinding pace and expense that seems to out weigh the advantages of it.
I'll go crawl back to my carb now.... :embarrassed:
Quote from: FLTRI on June 26, 2011, 09:48:00 AM
Quote from: Doghouse on June 25, 2011, 05:33:57 PM
...What would interest me is if someone could take a scattergraph from a completely V-tuned bike, then have the same bike professionally dyno-tuned and another graph made for comparison, and then explain the differences in detail. Otherwise, I'll be more than completely satisfied to stick to using Datamaster and V-tune and have a great running engine.
:up: :idea: :up:
Bob
y]
Feel free to send me several generic 02 data logs about 45 min long off the same bike in a couple of degrees of tune and I will. The more vehicles I look at the more that I am finding patterns on the graphs. It is getting really fairly easy to see the differences in the tunes. The more radical motors that are well tuned are the most interesting. The 1300 HP Mustang I am doing now is way cool. I will post those when I get it dialed in.
AW
QuoteIt is getting really fairly easy to see the differences in the tunes.
We can easily see differences. What we are looking for is the analytical technique you have developed to understand what the differences represent and how to use that to make tuning these engines easier.
Please explain in some detail what those differences you see mean.
Thanks,
Bob
On the fuel side of things, what you see on the MAP vs PW scatter graph is that the pattern for any given rpm range is quite tight and linear. The untuned motors have a very random pattern. Tame motors once tuned, have a tight, linear pattern at most points in the graph. Many of the points off the general pattern are related to AE and DE.
On the timing side of things, the variation in the way people set up motors is incredible. Some motors are set up to give timing based almost entirely based on engine speed. Others defy logic. All very interesting. I am thinking about trying to get a way to do this with stock odb2 cars to see how the car manufactures do things.
It is quite easy to see where the o2s are really leaning hard on the tune.
On the car I am tuning now I did find a bust in the ECU code that helped the coders home in on the bust in the code.
Generally I am not really finding ways to make tuning faster, but I can sure see if the tune is getting close.
AW
Here is a plot off the nastiest cammed motor I have ever attempted to tune. Notice how the plot is developing very noticeable patterns similar to the way the tuned Harleys did. Untuned motors have a very random pattern to these plots.
I am going to create a street tune now to see if it is possible to get the bottom right (blue) section of the plot to tune in.
http://www.ncs-stl.com/mustangms3/MLV_001.jpg (http://www.ncs-stl.com/mustangms3/MLV_001.jpg)
I bet it would be really easy to spot when a customer got hosed by a some other less than talented tuner and needs to be retuned.
AW
Quote from: whittlebeast on July 05, 2011, 02:07:23 PM
...I bet it would be really easy to spot when a customer got hosed by a some other less than talented tuner and needs to be retuned.
AW
Develop it and call it Tunebuster. :idea: Then folks can use MegaSquirt to run your program. :gob:
You can have seminars to teach folks how to pay and use MegaSquirt then how to analyze scatter graphs!
$$$Brilliant!!!
Bob
Here is an interesting example. Both sides are the same bike and the same ride. On the left is the RPM vs throttle position. The colors indicate O2 reading. Red or near 1000 is butt rich. Blue or low voltage is near 0 volts or dead lean. Areas that show up with lots of blue are leaner than 14.6 AFR. The motor was V-tuned per the directions several times and then the 14.6 AFRs were changed to 14.6 and this test was run to verify the VEs. The averages/patterns should have never gone strong lean (blue). If the test was rerun with the entire AFR map set to 14.0 should give almost no blue dots anywhere. Once we get this test closer we will move on to the 14.0 AFR target test.
http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/MLV_TuneIssuesA.jpg (http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/MLV_TuneIssuesA.jpg)
This tune is far from finished even thou the owner thought it felt fairly close when running closed loop. He reported if felt bad in open loop.
Comparing the two sides and trying to find the patterns on the two graphs is why most all systems have gone to speed density VE tables. Alpha-n presentation like PC uses on the pc3 and pc5 is at least challenging for the tuners.
Have fun tuning.
AW
If VE's are different because of....... Wouldn't we want to see other things different? Hard to see while only reading three things the ECM is.
Let's give the engine what wants. Our job is to figure that out. FI, carbed or a controlled drip on a manifold.
Is Bob on ignore? Looking forward to your feed back to him.
Same bike after a little more tweaking. Notice that the o2 integrators are working very little now.
http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/MLV_TuneIssuesC.jpg (http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/MLV_TuneIssuesC.jpg)
Now we need to retest at 14.5 AFR almost everywhere.
AW
Compare this to the plots in post 48. Same bike but retuned on a more balanced exhaust system. I may have to get him to lean on the RPM a little harder and see if any new patterns develop.
http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/MLV_TuneIssuesD.jpg (http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/MLV_TuneIssuesD.jpg)
Here is what a TTS tuned bike looks like when the AFR targets are set to 14.5 and retested. In theory, the entire map should have come up with a slightly red tint to it with no all blue areas, as they indicate dead lean. Now the hand VE tuning is going to start. If all goes well we will have everywhere 80 KPA and below will be random dots with a slight red tint.
Then we will move on to 14.0 AFR aiming for red everywhere.
Note that this is all done with the O2 bias set to 450 to get the best read of the 02s. This can all be done with the old SERT provided that you can keep the software connected for an hour ride. The Alpha-N VE presentation is really restrictive but you can work thru it with time and effort. In this case, the owner is doing all of the hand tuning. I have never even seen the bike. In a few weeks, he plans to take it on a several thousand mile trip.
http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/MLV_TuneIssuesE.jpg (http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/MLV_TuneIssuesE.jpg)
AW
"In theory, the entire map should have come up with a slightly red tint to it with no all blue areas, as they indicate dead lean"
Who's theory? Red, blue what does it all mean?
"looks like when the AFR targets are set to 14.5 and retested"
Looks like? Really? What is the targeted, and what is being data logged? All complete bull "Potty mouth" unless we have all the facts. I understand this post is all all about your new product, but we on HTT are a bit smarter.
In that trace I am plotting o2 voltage with the colors. 1000 or red is indicating richer than stoich by quite a bit. Numbers around 100 are leaner than stoich.
Per TTS under <tools> <02 voltage calculator>
Lambda AFR Volts
0.966 14.18 804
0.967 14.20 803
0.968 14.21 802
0.969 14.22 801
0.970 14.24 799
0.971 14.25 798
0.972 14.27 796
0.973 14.28 795
0.974 14.30 794
0.975 14.31 793
0.976 14.33 792
0.977 14.34 791
0.978 14.36 789
0.979 14.37 788
0.980 14.39 786
0.981 14.40 785
0.982 14.42 783
0.983 14.43 780
0.984 14.45 778
0.985 14.46 775
0.986 14.47 773
0.987 14.49 771
0.988 14.50 768
0.989 14.52 764
0.990 14.53 761
0.991 14.55 758
0.992 14.56 756
0.993 14.58 750
0.994 14.59 746
0.995 14.61 741
0.996 14.62 730
0.997 14.64 645
0.998 14.65 580
0.999 14.67 515
1.000 14.68 450
1.001 14.69 385
1.002 14.71 320
1.003 14.72 255
1.004 14.74 190
1.005 14.75 150
1.006 14.77 142
1.007 14.78 135
1.008 14.80 129
1.009 14.81 124
1.010 14.83 120
1.011 14.84 118
1.012 14.86 116
1.013 14.87 113
1.014 14.89 111
1.015 14.90 109
1.016 14.91 107
1.017 14.93 106
1.018 14.94 104
1.019 14.96 103
1.020 14.97 102
1.021 14.99 101
1.022 15.00 100
Please, yet to find conclusive evidence that this is correct.
Quote from: hrdtail78 on July 14, 2011, 12:11:06 AM
...................................................., but we on HTT are a bit smarter.
Quote from: Sporty 48 on July 14, 2011, 04:51:29 AM
Please, yet to find conclusive evidence that this is correct.
What proof of anything do you have in life?
All we have is experience and statistics.
If you let go of an apple it will almost always go down. Sure the are exceptions like if you happen to be in one of those vertical wind tunnels but...
Andy
You keep forgetting your missing 50% or better of the data! Just to keep things honest you also need to remove any data that's not in steady state, simply because you have no idea what part of transition you got a reading in. Anyone with a basic understand of analyzing data knows the first thing you do it to remove all unwanted/bad data then do you analyses. While it might be fun to plot graphs what does the software do to remove this unwanted/bad data?
Ok So write a filter based on what ever you want to filter out. Whats the big deal?
As a side note. I don't turn off AE and DE as that just adds more problems that it is worth.
No big deal YOUR just not doing it nor are you explaining to people that it needs to be done!
AE and DE are perfect examples (along with plenty of others) of why you would have data that you need to remove as they will clearly showing things in the plots that are not what your looking for and would be very misleading to an untrained person.
Quote from: Sporty 48 on July 14, 2011, 04:51:29 AM
Please, yet to find conclusive evidence that this is correct.
Quote from: hrdtail78 on July 14, 2011, 12:11:06 AM
...................................................., but we on HTT are a bit smarter.
Really?.....Mr. 97 posts, just came out of the garage door.
Statements like yours prove that there is, at least, one among us that truly greys that evidence.
Why apply filters when trend lines appear?
Trying to understand, difficult with such strong egos and uncompromising opinions.
With some 97 posts, that makes you twice as smart as me. No small feat.
Lots of real experience here.
And just a whiff of whit.
Quote from: Rider57 on July 14, 2011, 09:37:58 AM
Quote from: Sporty 48 on July 14, 2011, 04:51:29 AM
Please, yet to find conclusive evidence that this is correct.
Quote from: hrdtail78 on July 14, 2011, 12:11:06 AM
...................................................., but we on HTT are a bit smarter.
Really?.....Mr. 97 posts, just came out of the garage door.
Statements like yours prove that there is, at least, one among us that truly greys that evidence.
Bad data is a trend. You have to know or assume it is bad unless you can prove to yourself it is good.
Then you have to prove that any filter is actually filtering the bad data and only the bad data.
Wasn't calling any of you guys smart. :teeth: Just smart enough to spot a carpet bagger hocking his snake oil.
Quote from: hrdtail78 on July 14, 2011, 11:56:56 AM
Wasn't calling any of you guys smart. :teeth: Just smart enough to spot a carpet bagger hocking his snake oil.
Can I safely assume you are referring to Steve from TTS? Wow he must be offended.
Quote from: whittlebeast on July 14, 2011, 12:26:45 PM
Quote from: hrdtail78 on July 14, 2011, 11:56:56 AM
Wasn't calling any of you guys smart. :teeth: Just smart enough to spot a carpet bagger hocking his snake oil.
Can I safely assume you are referring to Steve from TTS? Wow he must be offended.
Perfect example of interpolating wrong data. Garbage in, garbage out.
What is Whittlebeast selling?
Nothing I can see except some new ideas.
Heresy, like a balanced budget.
Going for an evening ride, you guys are too much.
Sincerely,
Just Out of the Garage
Quote from: whittlebeast on July 14, 2011, 12:26:45 PM
Quote from: hrdtail78 on July 14, 2011, 11:56:56 AM
Wasn't calling any of you guys smart. :teeth: Just smart enough to spot a carpet bagger hocking his snake oil.
Can I safely assume you are referring to Steve from TTS? Wow he must be offended.
You can rest assured that if I have something to say, I say it myself. I have no need for anyone else to speak for me.
Here is an example of the tuning process on a friends BT bike. The bike in question is running an older version code that is still and Alpha-N presentation VE table type tune (the VE Table is RPM and Throttle Position). Note that someone has elected to convert most of the later version codes to Speed Density and that is a huge improvement (the VE Table is RPM and MAP based). You will see why in a moment.
First the closest base code was picked to match the displacement, cam and exhaust that the owner thought was reasonable. The owner claimed the the first ride on this best guess tune was almost unrideable. Several V-Tune sessions were done per the directions with the aid of a dash display to cover as many cells as reasonable possible. The bike was getting better every V-Tune session as expected. Once the tune was no longer changing much with each additional V-Tune session, we went to verify the tuning results, looking for possible holes in the tune.
We then changed all of the cells that were set to 14.6 AFR (closed loop) to 14.5 AFR and retested with a generic o2 data log looking for lean holes. The owner too the bike out for about a spirited hour ride. The goal was to get lots of data. He is very experienced at getting good V-Tune data as he is accustomed to getting data with his heads up remote display.
Here is one of the plots.
(http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/MLV_TuneIssuesJ.jpg)
As you can see, there are some fairly serious areas (patterns) of blue indicating a lean condition. Here is what it looks like in an Alpha-N presentation where he has to find patterns concentrating on moving the lean areas a little richer. Changes in VE were made a couple of clicks at a time and retested.
(http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/MLV_TuneIssuesL.jpg)
Here is the results after a few tests.
(http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/MLV_TuneIssuesM.jpg)
You can still see one spot on the plot that still has a blue area. A little more fine tuning is required but he is getting there.
Now for the MAP vs Pulse Width Plots. I notices early that tuned bike have definite patterns based on RPM. Untuned bikes have a more smeared pattern. This is more of a verification that the tune is coming along than it is a tuning tool. Like 1/4 mile speed is a good indication of HP in drag racing.
Here is the untuned Bike. Note that filters were applied to remove warmup and AE/DE data.
(http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/MLV_TuneIssuesG.jpg)
The bike after V-Tuning
(http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/MLV_TuneIssuesH.jpg)
and after fine tuning
(http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/MLV_TuneIssuesI.jpg)
Here is the AFR Desired And Timing tables as reported by the data feed
(http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/MLV_TuneIssuesN.jpg)
Have fun tuning
AW
Quote from: whittlebeast on July 17, 2011, 01:45:12 PM
...This is more of a verification that the tune is coming along than it is a tuning tool...
:agree:
Bob
Just for the record, I am referring to the MAP vs PW plots as a verification.
AW
Quote from: FLTRI on July 17, 2011, 04:42:01 PM
Quote from: whittlebeast on July 17, 2011, 01:45:12 PM
...This is more of a verification that the tune is coming along than it is a tuning tool...
:agree:
Bob
Bob
Actually it is a tuning tool. I have not used Vtune since I started trimming in the running map.
This is my bike Andy has been talking about. He has never seen it nor has he even seen the tuning files I have been loading to the ecm. He has only seen the data logs I have recorded. He dose not have any of the build specifics of the engine either. We are just looking at trends and making small adjustments hear and there and checking if they were a benefit or a loss. The route I use for my data recording is the same road each time so I can go back and check the performance at the same locations on each data log. What I can say is the engine is tuning in nicely since I have started adjusting the maps the performance has increased. When I started out on a full throttle run through first gear I recorded a 9.2 mile per hour per second peak acceleration. My last log file at the same location I recorded a 13.3 mile per hour per second. I know there is more to do but It is working for me.
Quote from: cts1950 on July 18, 2011, 06:39:24 AM
..He has never seen it nor has he even seen the tuning files I have been loading to the ecm. He has only seen the data logs I have recorded...
Are you recording broadband O2 sensor feedback? So a data log is generated over a long ride were someone could opt to look at rpm/tp/afr from the data log
Why not simply identify where afr is not correct to target and correct it using the DataMaster logs?
Why is a scatter graph better/easier than rpm/tp/afr to analyze afr changes needed?
As I've stated many times in this thread, I'm always looking for quicker, easier ways to perfect tunes.
Bob
That would require a pair of LC1s.
Quote from: whittlebeast on July 18, 2011, 10:37:58 AM
That would require a pair of LC1s.
OK, I see now. You are tuning off the narrow band readings just like the v-tune. The bike has been street v-tuned and now you are looking for anomalies and making minor changes...just like the system does by default dynamically.
I don't believe you will ever get to Nirvana (no change) since the Delphi system is constantly making changes/adjustments as so many have found out from their v-tune experiences.
A number of variables/strategies are always in play that influence final fueling.
We have found over the past couple years that, when O2 sensors get proper readings and v-tune is done correctly, the results are usually better than hand tuning...especially in the light cruise areas.
IE: A 2010 CVO 110" Ultra we tuned reported 48-50 mpg @ 70-80 mph and the customer couldn't believe how smooth and cool the engine ran over his 700 mile trip to evaluate the tune quality.
No magic, no extra software, nothing other than v-tuning and trimming WOT to AFR we desire...just paying attention to detail and using the product as designed. :wink:
Bob
In the Sportys, closed loop is almost totally out of the question, at least when the motor is making more than about 10 HP.
Tunes should no longer change once running 100% open loop. Provided the fuel does not change.
Here is a tune from a very well respected tuner. I would trust him with my personal bike. He runs bikes entirely in open loop.
Here is the 02 readings in a RPM vs MAP trace. There are still some lean spots that could be fine tuned in the map as shown by areas of mostly blue. Most of the trace is textbook tuning.
(http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/MLV_TuneIssuesO.jpg)
Sorry that this looses lots of detail in the conversion to JPG file format.
AW
Andy,
IMO all you are attesting to is:
The O2 sensors are not getting proper reliable signalling...which is usually due to exhaust O2 sensor bung mounting, especially depth...or bad sensor...which occurs most often than cars for sure...Especislly if run rich (ie:<12.0) for long enough.
EGR is usually the villian here.
Wherever EGR is present O2 sensor readings cannot be relied upon. Simple :nix:
That said, IME if O2 sensors are mounted such that there is a fair amount of the nose of the sensors are into the exhaust flow the sensors get good signaling and can be relied upon to accurately and efficiently (responsive, smooth, w/great mileage) v-tune most all builds, BT or Sporty.
Just my experience,
Bob
Bob
I have never seen any indication that the o2s are misbehaving. This is a stock exhaust. The o2s are very active when near 14.7 AFR.
The issue I have has to do with the percentage change in the pulse width as the o2 feedback logic switches from lean to rich. The resulting swing in AFR is huge.
AW
Quote from: whittlebeast on July 18, 2011, 06:05:52 PM
Bob
I have never seen any indication that the o2s are misbehaving. This is a stock exhaust. The o2s are very active when near 14.7 AFR.
The issue I have has to do with the percentage change in the pulse width as the o2 feedback logic switches from lean to rich. The resulting swing in AFR is huge.
AW
Just don't see these huge tuning issues especially with stock exhaust systems.
After tuning more than a few of the closed loop Sportsters I find nothing special needed in tuning strategies as compared to BTs.
Again, if the exhaust system provides good O2 signaling and VE calibration is spot on, these Sporty's run great...too!
Not sure why you see these huge swings. :scratch:
Bob
PS - Maybe SC can shed some light on this anomaly. :nix:
We got this all to work on the new PowerVision stuff. Way cool. Now there is an option for people without a laptop and a dyno.
(http://www.ncs-stl.com/PVTune/Scatter02.jpg)
Quote from: whittlebeast on July 31, 2011, 07:53:10 PM
...Now there is an option for people without a laptop and a dyno.
(http://www.ncs-stl.com/PVTune/Scatter02.jpg)
You should write a book on how to tune off scatter graphs with the PV. You'll make millions, or at a minimum...confuse the hell out of most...including me :wink:
Bob
Anyone here played with one of these? Way cool. A few down sides, lots of up sides so far. This should be fun for the gas mileage crowd.
The first one I tuned dialed right in with 5 rides.
(http://www.ncs-stl.com/PVTune/PVMounted.JPG)
Quote from: whittlebeast on August 04, 2011, 05:20:16 AM
Anyone here played with one of these? Way cool.
looks real cool. can you gove some more details?
Here is the directions from FuelMoto to do what amounts to auto tuning. It does not look all that tough to use to develop a reasonable map.
I will try it on my wife's bike when my tuner gets here next week.
Note that the bike referenced above was not done this way...
<<<<< snip >>>>
Power Vision PV Log Tuner Basic/Pro Instructions and tuning tips
1. Check for Firmware update connect your Power Vision unit to your computer, open the update client and make sure you have the latest firmware. PV Log tuner requires firmware version 1.0.3-723 or later
2. Create a Value File. Open your calibration in the WinPV software and create a Power Vision value file under File/Save Selected Values that has the following tables: VE front, VE rear, AFR or Lambda fuel table, and Front and Rear Spark tables. You will need to switch the software user level to Pro by going to Setup/Options/User Level in WinPv
3. Mount the Power Vision on your bike, go to Datalog/Assign Signals and configure your Power Vision to datalog the following channels:
MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure)
TP (Throttle Position)
Engine Temp
Engine Speed (RPM)
Accel Enrichment
Desired/Set AFR (if you have an AFR based fuel table) OR
Desired/Set Lambda (if you have a Lambda based fuel table)
Warmup AFR (for AFR calibrations) OR
Warmup Lambda (for Lambda calibrations)
Spark Knock Front
Spark Knock Rear
VE New Front
VE New Rear
If you are using the Auto Tune Module/Auto Tune Pro you will also log:
Lambda 1 (Dynojet Channel)
Lambda 2 (Dynojet Channel)
4. Datalog with the Power Vision. Start the bike go to Datalog/Gauges and press “start logâ€. Ride the bike as normal, trying to vary the load and RPM as much as possible. It may be helpful to use the PV to display helpful channels for visual reference such as MAP, Engine temp, Throttle position, and Knock retard, make sure to press “end log†before you shut the motor off
5. Retrieve Logs that were created from the Power Vision. Connect the unit to the USB, open the WinPV software, go to “Get Log†and retrieve your log(s) and save them to your computer
6. Configure PV Log Tuner Software. Open PV Log Tuner software and go to “Options†and set the following parameters:
Stoich Value 14.6
Minimum Hit Count 50
Minimum Engine Temp 185
Maximum Engine Temp 288
For Auto Tune Basic check the box “HD OEM O2 sensors for correctionâ€
For Auto Tune Pro with the AT Module check the box "Use Auto Tune for correction"
Note: If you have your original factory O2 sensors installed as well as the Auto Tune sensors at the same time you can check the boxes for both the OEM sensors and Auto Tune and Log Tuner will use data from the factory sensors during normal closed loop operation and data from the AT sensors in the open loop areas of your calibration. This works very well
7. Import Value File go to “Open PVV†and load the value file that was created in Step 1
8. Import Logs go to “Open Logs†and load the log files that were created in Step 4. You can load a single or multiple logs
9. Calculate Tune click “Calc Tune†which will calculate corrected VE values and Spark Tables for the conditions and events that were datalogged. You can click on the tree view to see each calculated table
10. Apply Tune click “Apply Tune†which will apply the new calculated VE/Spark values to the original Power Vision value file that was loaded in Step 7
11. Save PVV click “Apply PVV†which will create a new Value File with your corrected tables, you will name this file and save it to your computer
12. Import Value File Using WinPV open your original calibration and import the value file created from Step 11. Make sure your use the same calibration that was used while datalogging in step 4. To import the Value File open your Power Vision calibration, go to File/Load All Values and select the PVV that you created and saved in step 11.
13. Reflash ECM now that you have an updated calibration, save this calibration with WinPv, send it to your Tune manager and flash your ECM. Make sure that when you flash your updated calibration that you reset the fuel trims
Tips/Advanced options
Keep log sessions to 15-30 minute session, this keeps the logs a reasonable size and is generally ideal for collecting and sorting data
You must have a closed loop calibration to use Log Tuner Basic. To enable closed loop Lambda values must be between .98 and 1.02 or AFR must be 14.6
PV Log Tuner uses only certain data and also has specific filters, however for the quickest results it is recommended that you disable Accelerator Enrichment, Decel Enleanment, and PE Fuel during the log tuning process. To disable AE and DE you can go right to the AE/DE Multipliers and change them to 0, and for PE set the PE Enable RPM above 6200
Log Tuner Basic will populate approx 2/3 of the normal operating range of the VE tables using the standard Lambda/AFR table in most Fuel Moto closed loop calibrations, and in most cases higher RPM/Load areas should be well within reasonable tune for a given combinaion. However more advanced users may choose to increase the area that PV Log Tuner Basic will populate by enlarging the closed loop area of the AFR/Lambda table. This is done by extending the Lambda/AFR values up to approx 4000 RPM and 80Kpa. I recommend first doing some PV Log Tuner corrections with our standard AFR/Lambda table and then if necessary extending the tables which will allow you to gather additional data. Note if you entend the closed loop area it is also critical to monitor engine temp and spark knock if you are setting up the table for closed loop operation in higher load areas. As a general guideline I would also recommend removing approx 4 degrees of spark timing as well. Also note if you are extending the closed loop range that when you are done logging and create your tune that you return your AFR/Lambda table to the original desired settings to ensure a proper mixture.
When using Log Tuner Pro with the Auto Tune we find it generally works best if you set the Fuel table to a single value when tuning, this works especially well for visual reference when tuning. We generally set this to 13.0 AFR/.89 Lambda, when your tune is developed you can set the Fuel Table to your preference
Note: If you have your original factory O2 sensors installed as well as the Auto Tune sensors at the same time you can check the boxes for both the OEM sensors and Auto Tune and Log Tuner will use data from the factory sensors during normal closed loop operation and data from the AT sensors in the open loop areas of your calibration. This works very well
This could be good stuff and IS a reason that I have the Fuelmoto pipe... albeit I'm going to start off with doing a v-tune.... THEN go see what the ECM is calling down, AND what the actual is, using a Twin Scan+ kit. Could be interesting.
All fun stuff.
Tomorrow I am going to be able to collect some more data runs. I just refreshed the top end of my 95". It had started using a lot of oil about a quart in 800 miles. It will be interesting if the data will change. Looking at the pistons they were not carboned up just in the center light deposit in the squish area was clean. No pitting or sign of damage other than they were beyond wear limits and I could hear a slight piston slap at moderate throttle The heads were older style with Kline seal that were as hard as rocks more oil loss. I put about 40 miles on this evening for break in.
Keep us up to date.
I goofed and made two changes at once one was a top end rebuild the other was adding super trapp discs to my magnaflow mufflers. Mayor you have used the super trapp mufflers will using the discs improve scavenging? That would explane the lean spot I found in the log after the mod. The first graph is before adding super trapp and rebuild. The second graph is first data after rebuild. The third graph shows results by slight tweaking of the front ve table. The color bar is the O2 voltage in mv.
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
Quote from: cts1950 on August 09, 2011, 06:06:52 PM
Mayor you have used the super trapp mufflers will using the discs improve scavenging?
if you asking will more discs improve scavenging? yes, if the restriction from the current disc count was restricting flow.
Its interesting to say the least
The caviat being that if what we understand is
factual about the data file contains all data including those hits that are not
good points that are not good solid data how would you determine that the problem
area on the 3d graph is really a problem and not an assimilation of data reflecting simply an area
where the ecm is reporting bad information on a consistent basis.
So you're looking at a problem to fix that isn't really a problem with the
tune but just a data collection issue.
Quote from: mayor on August 04, 2011, 06:14:31 AM
Quote from: whittlebeast on August 04, 2011, 05:20:16 AM
Anyone here played with one of these? Way cool.
looks real cool. can you gove some more details?
Next to a 5 inch tach. you can really see how small that monitor really is.
Quote from: hotroadking on August 09, 2011, 09:35:43 PM
Its interesting to say the least
The caviat being that if what we understand is
factual about the data file contains all data including those hits that are not
good points that are not good solid data how would you determine that the problem
area on the 3d graph is really a problem and not an assimilation of data reflecting simply an area
where the ecm is reporting bad information on a consistent basis.
So you're looking at a problem to fix that isn't really a problem with the
tune but just a data collection issue.
We have not found this to be a problem as long as you have enough data. With TTS, we have found a spirited 60-90 min ride is about right. With Power Vision somewhat less time. Many of these data outliers are AD and DE events. We are simply looking for pasterns. These patterns are quite easy to locate.
I took time to write filters to toss out the warmup and AE/DE events but the patterns still looked essentially the same.
AW
Very good point.
I would hate for even one person to crash using one of these while operating.
No doubt a powerful tool but those distractions are killers.
Quote from: hrdtail78 on August 09, 2011, 10:17:21 PM
Quote from: mayor on August 04, 2011, 06:14:31 AM
Quote from: whittlebeast on August 04, 2011, 05:20:16 AM
Anyone here played with one of these? Way cool.
looks real cool. can you gove some more details?
Next to a 5 inch tach. you can really see how small that monitor really is.
Mayor
This is a 95" road glide ultra build with flat top pistons. I am using 12 4" discs on each side of the true dual I have 12 more on order should have them by Friday so I will have up to 18 per side to play with. I feel with the butt dyno that it is pulling hard at low end but get a little choked up about 5k, Yet I could be just running out of cam A SE 203. It is consistently lifting the front wheel just enough to feel it on a 1st to 2nd shift at 5500 I was not getting that before. The 2nd to 3rd shift has noticeable clutch slip so a heavier spring is in order. I am impressed with the noise reduction no more harsh notes on open throttle runs. Overall a much more relaxing ride and better sounding then stock pipes.
I'm running the stock count (around 10) on my 96" w/SE fatshotz with the open end cap mostly to keep the exhaust on the quite side to hear the radio :embarrassed: I don't exactly buy into the notion that an increased disc count would reduce lower rpm tq. From what I've seen on Supermeg testing, an increased disc count generally raises the whole curve up but there may be some select areas that don't raise (but does not necessarily decrease). My guess is one muffler per cylinder would be able to reach diminished returns easier than one muffler per two like the Supermeg has, but I doubt that 18 with a closed cap is "over exhausting" since that would be very similar to 10 discs and an open cap. I think an easy way to tell if more discs is over scavenging the lower rpm's is watch your 70 and 80 kPa areas to see if the ve's are increasing or decreasing with the disc count. Since your bike is afr, you'll need to look at your histogram or MegaLogViewer to see where 70 and 80 kPa cells are in relation to TPS. The reason I think these cells are the ones to look at is anything prior to these are affected by EGR calculations. I think the 60 and below will give you an indication of trends, but above that will give you a better idea of what's happening.
I'm running the 3" internal disc mufflers on my 88" RK with 21 discs each with a closed end cap, and 22 is the max amount before maxing our the baffle according to Supertrapp. Stock on these were 12 per side, which was very restrictive. I would run more than 21, but the discs are expensive and I figured that I would not gain enough to justify the costs. This bike is not loud at all with this set up. BTW, I saw an increase in desired fuel across the entire rpm range with the increase in disc count with this bike (when viewing the T-max autotune data). This case is not apples to apples, since the 3" discs flow much less than the 4" discs though.
I put "over exhausting" in parenthesises above just to give maxheadflow a shout out for coining that phrase. :teeth:
Thanks for the reply I will watch those cells.
Chris
Good call on the KPAs, Mike. :teeth:
I received my additional 12 discs today so I am running 18 discs on each side. The sound has improved it dose not seem choked up at open throttle and had a more pleasing rumble at idle. The data logs show no significant change over the full range. Of course with out a dyno this is all supposition.
Here is a side by side comparison of the MegaLogViewer looking at the data coming off the same bike. On the left is data collected with Power Vision and on the right is data collected with TTS. Both tunes were running open loop.
First in Speed Density Presentation.
http://www.ncs-stl.com/PVTune/TTS_PV_MAPvsRPM.bmp (http://www.ncs-stl.com/PVTune/TTS_PV_MAPvsRPM.bmp)
Then in Alpha-N Presentation.
http://www.ncs-stl.com/PVTune/TTS_PV_TPSvsRPM.bmp (http://www.ncs-stl.com/PVTune/TTS_PV_TPSvsRPM.bmp)
Have fun tuning
AW
The resolution of the one on the left is grainer but the info is there. It looks like you have a lean spot around 2500 and 0-10% I would try bumping the VE a couple of clicks in those cells.
Quote from: cts1950 on August 17, 2011, 07:47:58 AM
...It looks like you have a lean spot around 2500 and 0-10%
Can you tell how lean it is? What is the AFR?
QuoteI would try bumping the VE a couple of clicks in those cells.
How much VE change = a couple of clicks?
Still trying to understand how these plots make tuning easier/faster. :scratch:
Bob
Bob I am just watching the o2s they are set at 480mv. so I am not messing with the CLB, if they show low I fatten them a little at a time until I get rid of the blue which is the o2s showing that they are low compared to the rest of the tune. All of the cells are in open loop. Once the low spots are eliminated I may move all the AFRs up or down to see which cell go high and low and and make adjustments until all are changed states with a single AFR change again I won't say it is faster way to tune just a different way. It seems the motor is happy with 14.3 up to 50 kpa.
Just registered MLV.
I cannot see the same info at all when viewing the above examples on the TTS shots. The PV looks like it stands out. $30 is one thing... buying a PV is something else all together.
If I cannot get clear data, as shown with PV, whats the use?
If you are trying to see the o2 voltage as the third (colored) axis, my guess is that you need set the limits on the o2 voltage to 0 to 1000. This way you are only looking at the range of voltage that you care about. I often set the o2 range from 200 to 800 to get lots of resolution in the graphs. Keep in mind the 450 is stoich but they never stay there very long.
AW
Where did you get that 450 was Stoich? It's not by the way.
Quote from: Steve Cole on August 17, 2011, 12:51:31 PM
Where did you get that 450 was Stoich? It's not by the way.
http://tuneyourharley.com/biketech/content/narrow-band-o2-sensor (http://tuneyourharley.com/biketech/content/narrow-band-o2-sensor)
http://www.picoauto.com/applications/lambda-sensor.html (http://www.picoauto.com/applications/lambda-sensor.html)
I have a question for cts 1950. I'm beginning to get afn understanding how this works. A little, anyways.
Heres the question.... You run closed loop, right? Are you using MLV right after you upload a tune? Even if in the open loop side of things... The AFVs can come into play. Or, are you open looping the bike for these data runs and will later go back closed?
I like what you are thinking about obtaining a global move when screwing with AFR tables, but I wonder of that is the correct approach? For an end result? I don't know, so I'm asking.
Sport 48 can't do this with his tune at all, because of how bean tuned it
Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
Quote from: whittlebeast on August 17, 2011, 01:16:49 PM
Quote from: Steve Cole on August 17, 2011, 12:51:31 PM
Where did you get that 450 was Stoich? It's not by the way.
http://tuneyourharley.com/biketech/content/narrow-band-o2-sensor (http://tuneyourharley.com/biketech/content/narrow-band-o2-sensor)
http://www.picoauto.com/applications/lambda-sensor.html (http://www.picoauto.com/applications/lambda-sensor.html)
You need to quit going to sites that speak in general terms. Start by going to what the fuel manufactures are blending for fuels in your area to find Stoich. The voltage out of the O2 sensor is going to vary based on what is blended into the fuel. 450 mv was fine for fuel 20 years ago but not today.
Wurk Truk,
Going to slip this in and duck, lots going on in this thread.
On my bike since a very good base tune exists.
Started on the VE's, think I went a little too far on some, but that is where I am adjusting for now.
Said better by Bob, FLTRI
Quote
Note:
If you use the AFR table to adjust fueling the VEs need to be correct for that particular engine and its bits and pieces (build), you cannot rely on the outcome.
This IS why good tuners work exclusively on VEs...then, if necessary, make minor AFR changes.
The chap using AFR to make fueling changes must understand it is based on MAP not T/P, like VE tables.
Bob
unquote
Quote from: wurk_truk on August 17, 2011, 02:37:20 PM
I have a question for cts 1950. I'm beginning to get afn understanding how this works. A little, anyways.
Heres the question.... You run closed loop, right? Are you using MLV right after you upload a tune? Even if in the open loop side of things... The AFVs can come into play. Or, are you open looping the bike for these data runs and will later go back closed?
I like what you are thinking about obtaining a global move when screwing with AFR tables, but I wonder of that is the correct approach? For an end result? I don't know, so I'm asking.
Sport 48 can't do this with his tune at all, because of how bean tuned it
Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
Quote from: wurk_truk on August 17, 2011, 02:37:20 PM
I have a question for cts 1950. I'm beginning to get afn understanding how this works. A little, anyways.
Heres the question.... You run closed loop, right? Are you using MLV right after you upload a tune? Even if in the open loop side of things... The AFVs can come into play. Or, are you open looping the bike for these data runs and will later go back closed?
I like what you are thinking about obtaining a global move when screwing with AFR tables, but I wonder of that is the correct approach? For an end result? I don't know, so I'm asking.
Sport 48 can't do this with his tune at all, because of how bean tuned it
Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
CTS1950 is running open loop almost everywhere. He may be closed loop near idle.
Quote from: Steve Cole on August 17, 2011, 02:56:33 PM
You need to quit going to sites that speak in general terms. Start by going to what the fuel manufactures are blending for fuels in your area to find Stoich. The voltage out of the O2 sensor is going to vary based on what is blended into the fuel. 450 mv was fine for fuel 20 years ago but not today.
Its my understanding that 02 sensors measure oxygen content, I would be curious to hear your explanation of why different fuels will cause different voltages at Stoich, as the 02 content should be the same regardless of the fuel .
Give to to me in technical terms, Ive been a professional tech for 20 years so I can usually follow along.
Since your a pro it's real simple. An O2 sensor doesn't know or care anything about fuel or how it's made. That is the problem, when they start mixing additives into the fuel as they do today. So let's say they add O2 to the fuel (which by the way they do today) how is the O2 sensor going to read? Higher voltage or Lower voltage, since it doesn't know or care where it (O2) comes from it just measures the level in the exhaust against the O2 that comes into the back side of the sensor. It then puts out a voltage of the difference between them. In a perfect world the O2 coming in the backside would not have anything other than normal air but what about a high smog day Vs no smog or about oil fumes mixed in the air. There are a lot of thing that all play into it and you cannot make a blanket statement about it. Back in the day when all gasoline was made the same you could get much closer but those days are long gone. The sensor did not read 450 mv back then either, it has a range and that is just why the output curve looks like it does.
Since the Stoich range of fuel today is ~ 14.25 - 14.68 let's look at those output voltage points for the O2 sensor.
.971 or 14.25 AFR = 798 mv
1.00 or 14.68 AFR = 450 mv
So since we know the range of the fuel requirement and we donot know the range of the fuel itself there is an output voltage difference. Now if the ECM could be told what the fuel is each time then that would change things but that's not what we have today.
Wurk_Truk
I am running open loop entirely. Most of my AFR cells on this graph are set at 14.5 below 50 kpa above that it ramps up to 13.0 the screen shot you can see the o2s bouncing as if they were closed loop so I know the tune is close with out being in closed loop. You can see the o2s go rich on acceleration or map values > 50 kpa that is what I expect I am most concerned when the o2 values drop to the bottom rail it is too lean for my liking. The scatter graph allows me to spot trends and values with out having to examine the entire log file graphs for me that is a time saver.
Saturday I am taking off on 3000+ mile trek in to Canada for 2 weeks ending up at the Kamloops Hog Rally in BC. I plan to check out the source of the Columbia river and the Ice Field Highway before that. I will not be checking in often only as internet allows.
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
Crosshairs,
The different fuels oxidize at different temperatures. For the heated O2 sensor to switch it operates at a different voltage.
Different combustion exhaust temp, different voltage to switch at the presence of O2.
That is the way it looks to me.
Quote from: crosshairs on August 17, 2011, 05:32:35 PM
Its my understanding that 02 sensors measure oxygen content, I would be curious to hear your explanation of why different fuels will cause different voltages at Stoich, as the 02 content should be the same regardless of the fuel .
Give to to me in technical terms, Ive been a professional tech for 20 years so I can usually follow along.
With pure gasoline (tough to find now) the perfect stoch mix would be 14.7 and the typical o2 switch point would be 450 volts.
Take one of the EPA special fuels with all sorts of additives and the perfect stoch mix may get as low as 14.3 and the typical o2 switch point would be 450 volts.
The average fuel correction (assuming you are running closed loop) under the covers of the ECU will be 14.3/14.7 or .973 and the o2 switch point will still be 450
AW
Just checked my TTS/Beans tune, for O2 monitoring the voltage is set at 460 volts.
My TTS tune allows me to adjust the voltage to 450 volts.
Does the Power Vision allow for this kind of adjustment?
CTS1950, I would open loop the whole bike while doing this so that you don't run into the AFVs from that closed loop section affecting the open portions of the tune. Especially when looking for 'lean holes' as the AFVs will be looking to fill (hopefully) those holes too. I have had a few discussion with Steve AND FBRR on this, and the ECM WILL try to fill those holes if the CL section sees any problems.
Andy, I wasn't commenting on anything I did myself. I was just looking at the examples you posted. The PV samples are WAY easier to see the holes, as compared to data from TTS. Makes me, personally, wonder why that is so?
Also, I, again myself, may look at this 'lean hole' a bit differently, and use v-tune to see if adjusting could be done with that before just filling the holes. Or even a Twin Scan for that matter than just manually adjusting? When I finally get around to trying this, I, again myself, will look to this as a tuning AID, and not the end all to be all. Just like using Twin Scan, etc. Help find those areas that issues are present, right?
I would also like to see someone use this and THEN go and fine tune with TTS and use EGR tool, as a lot of this COULD be simply that, right?
The KEY here again, it to be SURE the O2s are placed correctly, or ALL data is suspect. Can NOT trust ANY pipe MFG.
Sporty 48, I feel that you messing with the tune form Bean is NOT the way to go. That is NOT an AFR tune, and everybody seems to be missing what Strokerjlk is trying to say. Bean does a tune, and when its done, his tunes are NOT for us to go back and play with. He uses BOTH VEs AND AFR to adjust it in. To play around, I feel you need a pure AFR tune to start with... one where one ONLY adjusted the VEs to achieve the desired effects, and the AFR table was NOT used for this purpose. I understand completely how Bean does this. If it were an AFR tune and not 5 gas... he sets up all the settings to actual as far as CI, injector size, etc. ANd then during a tune, instead of increasing CI, when he hits 127, he simply raises or lowers each cells AFR to keep the head room in place. If using an AFR meter, he, say..., tunes the cell to 13.5 AFR, but the AFR table could read 13.0 or 14.0. Its ALL about what comes out of the pipe for those guys. So... now to mess with that, when the 'math' isn't right for AFR THINKING.... I don't think things are as achievable as you may think.
If you feel the need to 'play'. You need to be able to make your own tune first using AFR tuning like TTS or PV. And..... just wait until you try to tune with PV like you are leaning.... you WILL see. Have you ever measured the depth of the O2s on that Bobcat pipe? If not... why not? You are depending on the O2s to help with 'tuning', right? Check em!!!
Again... I hope this ends up another 'tool in the box' to help ME find problem areas, especially in CL sections.
I find it a bit ironic that v-tune in closed loop isn't 'good enough' because of using NB O2s, and then this IS good enough, using NB O2s, in ranges outside of the operating range. :) Lean hole makes sense for this, but if bike is pig fattty rich, this wouldn't help at all. If I am set for 13.5AFR somewhere, the I would simply expect the O2s to be pegged rich like CTS's data run. They cannot tell if I AM at 13.5AFR or 11.5 AFR, only if there is a lean spot, right?
Quote from: Steve Cole on August 17, 2011, 07:35:20 PM
Since your a pro it's real simple. An O2 sensor doesn't know or care anything about fuel or how it's made. That is the problem, when they start mixing additives into the fuel as they do today. So let's say they add O2 to the fuel (which by the way they do today) how is the O2 sensor going to read? Higher voltage or Lower voltage, since it doesn't know or care where it (O2) comes from it just measures the level in the exhaust against the O2 that comes into the back side of the sensor. It then puts out a voltage of the difference between them. In a perfect world the O2 coming in the backside would not have anything other than normal air but what about a high smog day Vs no smog or about oil fumes mixed in the air. There are a lot of thing that all play into it and you cannot make a blanket statement about it. Back in the day when all gasoline was made the same you could get much closer but those days are long gone. The sensor did not read 450 mv back then either, it has a range and that is just why the output curve looks like it does.
Since the Stoich range of fuel today is ~ 14.25 - 14.68 let's look at those output voltage points for the O2 sensor.
.971 or 14.25 AFR = 798 mv
1.00 or 14.68 AFR = 450 mv
So since we know the range of the fuel requirement and we donot know the range of the fuel itself there is an output voltage difference. Now if the ECM could be told what the fuel is each time then that would change things but that's not what we have today.
:agree:
Where did everyone get off track on this?
Quote from: wurk_truk on August 18, 2011, 09:52:29 AM
They cannot tell if I AM at 13.5AFR or 11.5 AFR, only if there is a lean spot, right?
True.
Now for fun you can put the entire AFR table to 14.5 and then pull say 4% (about .5 AFR) fuel out of every cell and see if the entire map goes blue. If any part of the map still has a red pattern, you can bet you found a rich spot in the VE tables. It all depends how much you like playing. It is all about dialing in the VE's. Then playing around with the AFR tables to see what the motor wants.
I am getting 60 MPG at 68 MPH now that I used my PV to dial in my TTS tune. All data per the PV display. The power band is almost insanely smooth now.
AW
Gotcha, except this seems to work better with PV data. Don't like that, and am not going to buy one, since I HAVE a Twin Scan and TTS already.
Quote from: whittlebeast on August 18, 2011, 10:47:51 AM
Quote from: wurk_truk on August 18, 2011, 09:52:29 AM
They cannot tell if I AM at 13.5AFR or 11.5 AFR, only if there is a lean spot, right?
True.
...It all depends how much you like playing (and trial and error/guessing). ...Then playing around with the AFR tables to see what the motor wants.
How do you determine what the engine wants? What are you measuring to determine best AFR for best power?
QuoteI am getting 60 MPG at 68 MPH
Not that hard on a little light Sporty @ constant 68mph on flat land.
Quotenow that I used my PV to dial in my TTS tune.
Andy, please share what information is available with the PV that is not available with Datamaster.
Thanks,
Bob
Quote from: Steve Cole on August 17, 2011, 07:35:20 PM
Since your a pro it's real simple. An O2 sensor doesn't know or care anything about fuel or how it's made. That is the problem, when they start mixing additives into the fuel as they do today. So let's say they add O2 to the fuel (which by the way they do today) how is the O2 sensor going to read? Higher voltage or Lower voltage, since it doesn't know or care where it (O2) comes from it just measures the level in the exhaust against the O2 that comes into the back side of the sensor. It then puts out a voltage of the difference between them. In a perfect world the O2 coming in the backside would not have anything other than normal air but what about a high smog day Vs no smog or about oil fumes mixed in the air. There are a lot of thing that all play into it and you cannot make a blanket statement about it. Back in the day when all gasoline was made the same you could get much closer but those days are long gone. The sensor did not read 450 mv back then either, it has a range and that is just why the output curve looks like it does.
Since the Stoich range of fuel today is ~ 14.25 - 14.68 let's look at those output voltage points for the O2 sensor.
.971 or 14.25 AFR = 798 mv
1.00 or 14.68 AFR = 450 mv
So since we know the range of the fuel requirement and we donot know the range of the fuel itself there is an output voltage difference. Now if the ECM could be told what the fuel is each time then that would change things but that's not what we have today.
We can agree that there are differences in fuel blends, and to what degree we don't know without testing each brand , or even each tank
but I think your reaching a bit when you say a smoggy day will alter 02 voltage...I have looked at 02 data on a scope in all sorts of environments, and I don't see these big swings ...so I do not believe that the Stoich voltage moves as much as you seem to imply it does.
Now granted all of my experience is on cars and trucks, however I do not believe that a motorcycle would behave any differently.
if I have time, I will put my bike on a scope and record the data with a few different tanks of fuel from a few different fuel suppliers. ..maybe I can learn something.....who knows.
and for the record, if you could be a little less condescending it will lead to a much better conversation....
The range I gave you comes straight from the fuel suppliers, so that's where those numbers come from. If you understand that the O2 is the difference between the two sides of the O2 unit then you should also understand that anything that can cause a shift in one side will effect the other side, as the differential changes. This is just the very reason that trying to say that 450 mv is Stoich is absurd these days. Is it in the ball park, yes, but it is over at one end of the scale.
Andy
Since you have brought up a supposed difference between the two units how about showing what your saying with real data to back it up. Since both units only record what the ECM is sending out they are going to show the same thing, if you compare apples to apples and not apples to oranges. So if your looking at RPM, TPS and O2 voltage from the same tune your going to get the same results unless somehow your dropping data.
I assume that when you refering to two units, you are referring to logging with TTS compared to logging with Power Vision...
Go ahead and do the test. You only believe things you do anyway. Heck, you even have a dyno. I never ride my bike on a dyno. I like your logs better anyway. Power Vision is just faster, easier to test with and good enough for what I are looking for. Feel free to post the raw logs publicly.
AW
This is like a wrestling match. TTS the champ in one corner. Power Vision with a new flashing display in the other.
Harley riders benefit from the competition between two good tuning manufacturers.
Granted TTS is older, more established, but a smaller company????
Does the flashing display draw the younger kids, like an Ipod?
I am pulling for TTS, I think, The Underdog!
So another words Andy you have no data to support your claims. Your claim is its faster, you have both units so let's see the raw data showing it. You can adjust how fast or slow the TTS logs the data so unless you have turned it down slower we capture the data as fast as the ECM will send it. The TTS DataMaster will capture data at max. rate of 20 frames per second and the ECM typically runs at 4-5 frames per second. We do not have a PV nor do we plan on getting one just to see what we already know. We know how fast the ECM will send data out and we have checked many times that we get it all and I would guess that the PV is getting it all as well.
Sorry Steve,
Data don't matta.
Flashy display, see the buzz on other forums, point Andy.
The Japanese, Chinese and even what few entrepreneurs are left in this country would have one, be taking it apart and...
Coming up with something BETTER!!!!
Quote from: Sporty 48 on August 19, 2011, 08:38:11 AM
...Flashy display, see the buzz on other forums...
The Japanese, Chinese and even what few entrepreneurs are left in this country would have one, be taking it apart and...
Coming up with something BETTER!!!!
But first it must be believed by TTS that if they want to increase sales they will need to come with a flashy display...even if TTS feels/knows it is just flash and a way to get the iPod kids into their market.
Question is: Does SC feel he needs to produce products that are not required to do the job but provides flash to his product to attract folks who just have to have the latest gizmos.
Frankly I would hope SC is working diligently to come up with the next generation tuning tool(s) that have real value and make tuning easier/quicker to get a perfect running bike...not to have something to spend hours "playing" with.
Wait 'til the first crash while watching that little screen running down the road in traffic...naw, nobody would blame Dynojet for enabling that...right?
Bob
Quote from: FLTRI on August 19, 2011, 09:36:03 AM
Quote from: Sporty 48 on August 19, 2011, 08:38:11 AM
...Flashy display, see the buzz on other forums...
The Japanese, Chinese and even what few entrepreneurs are left in this country would have one, be taking it apart and...
Coming up with something BETTER!!!!
But first it must be believed by TTS that if they want to increase sales they will need to come with a flashy display...even if TTS feels/knows it is just flash and a way to get the iPod kids into their market.
Question is: Does SC feel he needs to produce products that are not required to do the job but provides flash to his product to attract folks who just have to have the latest gizmos.
Frankly I would hope SC is working diligently to come up with the next generation tuning tool(s) that have real value and make tuning easier/quicker to get a perfect running bike...not to have something to spend hours "playing" with.
Wait 'til the first crash while watching that little screen running down the road in traffic...naw, nobody would blame Dynojet for enabling that...right?
Bob
I have my PV mounted right next to my speedometer.....its about the same size also...its not distracting at all...I don't stare at it anymore than I stare at my speedo while riding. .In actuality,I glance down at it once in a while, much like you would glance down at your speedo.....
as far as flash is concerned, its much more than just flash...it has a multitude of gauges and sensors you can display so that you know whats going on with your engine while riding.
I happen to like RPM ,Gear position and fuel economy , but I have a few more on there also..The main screen will display 6 data inputs.......
There are many screens to chose from and you can populate those screens with whatever floats your boat. ..you can chose to display any sensor on the bike....hell,you could have every sensor on the bike displaying on a different screen and just toggle between them if you wanted to...
I guess an idiot could cause themselves to wreck while playing with this, but then again, an idiot can wreck with no outside help....
I have never used a TTS so I cant say how it compares on the tuning front, but the PowerVision is a capable unit that in time I'm sure many people here will come to accept as a valuable tool if they would try it for themselves.
TTS already has the capabilities of the PV bar mounted
screen, all you have to do is get one that you like either
wireless with a small hub or via USB cable.
I got a 12 ft USB cable for my Dimo 7 incher at Compusa for $9
run it under the seat strap, under the tank and up to the bars.
I already have a ram mount for Camera, radar Detector, juicer, smoothie machine
microwave, beer fridge and electric shaver, just added a mount for the 7 inch,
it's on and off in seconds.. Nothing to it and inexpensive and it works...
Pretty soon some guys will have dashes on HD's like the wingers...
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
(http://tapatalk.com/mu/a6898ef8-b5cd-0390.jpg)
My flashy, wizbang gizmo. I am hoping to upgrade to 17's or 19's around Xmas sales.
Looking at things from a manufacture point of view. I would like to know some more info. What are the sales of TTS to the DIY guy compared to pro's. This forum is a small snap shot of what is out there, and probably on heavy side of TTS DIY guys. Of all the TTS units I sell. I only know of 4 that have been used on the street. That's about 95%. (Thanks to the HTT guys for support.)
I am still waiting for the customer who wants a PCV. I would like to use one. I give an open minded, honest sales pitch. It does consist of I have never used one, but I have plenty with TTS. I'm sure breaking into the market with real facts and just not hype would have to be a point for SC. Even if it comes down to. I have used this more than that. When the customer is paying for something. He doesn't want to pay for me to learn or play. Ask your turner what he likes? A lot of guys don't want to learn new things.
Look at the iPhone. Everything that come out is compared to this. TTS is the standard. Others are trying to catch up. It's hard to keep up with apple also.
AW,
I'll make it over to Fenton sometime and have you show me the viewer. Just busy.
Quote from: FLTRI on August 19, 2011, 09:36:03 AM
Frankly I would hope SC is working diligently to come up with the next generation tuning tool(s) that have real value and make tuning easier/quicker to get a perfect running bike...not to have something to spend hours "playing" with.
On the fly, live tuning for the pro's?
Quote from: hotroadking on August 19, 2011, 01:50:41 PM
TTS already has the capabilities of the PV bar mounted
screen, all you have to do is get one that you like either
wireless with a small hub or via USB cable.
I got a 12 ft USB cable for my Dimo 7 incher at Compusa for $9
run it under the seat strap, under the tank and up to the bars.
I already have a ram mount for Camera, radar Detector, juicer, smoothie machine
microwave, beer fridge and electric shaver, just added a mount for the 7 inch,
it's on and off in seconds.. Nothing to it and inexpensive and it works...
Pretty soon some guys will have dashes on HD's like the wingers...
TTS has the capabilities that the PV can only DREAM about. I can use MY monitor to fill out a tuning histogram and generate VEs. PV can look at pretty little gauges and WISH they could tune with that monitor. There is NO comparison at present. The TTS 'monitor' is actually the monitor that a DYNO TUNER would use to set VEs. On the PV... I can tell how many miles of gasoline are left in my tank. Isn't that special.... This is the TUNING section and not the Gee Whiz section. The PV can tune by the hunt and pray method... but that monitor adds NOTHING to the game so far. Not enough there for me to give it a shot at all. Needs a serious upgrade first.
Some NEED to remember the differences.
Quote from: wurk_truk on August 19, 2011, 04:44:02 PM
Quote from: hotroadking on August 19, 2011, 01:50:41 PM
TTS already has the capabilities of the PV bar mounted
screen, all you have to do is get one that you like either
wireless with a small hub or via USB cable.
I got a 12 ft USB cable for my Dimo 7 incher at Compusa for $9
run it under the seat strap, under the tank and up to the bars.
I already have a ram mount for Camera, radar Detector, juicer, smoothie machine
microwave, beer fridge and electric shaver, just added a mount for the 7 inch,
it's on and off in seconds.. Nothing to it and inexpensive and it works...
Pretty soon some guys will have dashes on HD's like the wingers...
TTS has the capabilities that the PV can only DREAM about. I can use MY monitor to fill out a tuning histogram and generate VEs. PV can look at pretty little gauges and WISH they could tune with that monitor. There is NO comparison at present. The TTS 'monitor' is actually the monitor that a DYNO TUNER would use to set VEs. On the PV... I can tell how many miles of gasoline are left in my tank. Isn't that special.... for all the 'special olympic' kinda riders. This is the TUNING section and not the Gee Whiz section. The PV can tune by the hunt and pray method... but that monitor adds NOTHING to the game so far.
Some NEED to remember the differences.
The PV has a USB interface just like the TTS. Its windows based just like the TTS.
The software is installed on your computer just like a TTS.
You edit and create tunes on your laptop or desktop, just like the TTS
The display is just an extra feature, its not designed to be used for tuning and cant be used for tuning.
some NEED to learn the differences :smile:
"The Power Vision incorporates a very sophisticated, yet simple touch screen display that DOES NOT require the use of a computer to flash your bike. Simply select the tune and follow the on-screen prompts to download the tune, and if you’d like, edit your tune without ever touching a computer! That’s right, you can flash and make changes to your tune without ever getting off your bike."
I might be a simpleton, but changing your tune is tuning.
The difference I NEED to learn are hard with this type of statement from DJ. I, like some here, figured you could watch your histogram (or what ever DJ calls it) with that monitor. Just learned today you cannot.
Quote from: hrdtail78 on August 19, 2011, 06:01:09 PM
"The Power Vision incorporates a very sophisticated, yet simple touch screen display that DOES NOT require the use of a computer to flash your bike. Simply select the tune and follow the on-screen prompts to download the tune, and if you’d like, edit your tune without ever touching a computer! That’s right, you can flash and make changes to your tune without ever getting off your bike."
I might be a simpleton, but changing your tune is tuning.
The difference I NEED to learn are hard with this type of statement from DJ. I, like some here, figured you could watch your histogram (or what ever DJ calls it) with that monitor. Just learned today you cannot.
I think part of the skepticism is because there really is not a lot of information out there about the PV.
Its true that you can flash your bike without a computer,but you could only flash the canned tunes or a custom tune that was installed by the distributor.
if you buy one of these from Fuel Moto, he will pre load a tune based on the configuration of your bike
if you want your own tune,you create and edit it right on your PC, then load them into the PV...
and yes,you can edit the tunes, but only a few parameters....you can edit RPM limit, Idle RPM ,speedo cal and adaptive control, thats it....so I would not consider that tuning, just editing
one thing that I do like is the ability to have 6 different tunes loaded and flash between them on the road...you can pull over and have a new tune loaded in less than 5 minutes....this may seem like a trivial feature, but I find its pretty useful to compare small differences in tunes under real world conditions,and its also useful if you cant find the right fuel while your on a trip.
for example, I always run 93 octane in my bike, but I have a tune loaded in there with a much less aggressive timing table in case I get somewhere that does not have 93 octane fuel...and its happened a few time already that I needed to run 89 as there was no other fuel available...not a problem, load the other tune and putt putt along with the 89 octane until I find a station with 93, then flash it right back.
anyway, I'm not here to try and sell anything to anyone, i just thought that the more information that was available, the more inclined people would be to make sure they got the right tuner for them.
if you guys are happy with the TTS, there is no reason to change, these are just 2 different boxes that do pretty much the same thing.
Once PV comes up with an aid to do a COMPLETE tune and not change one parameter, I will look into it. I have like Dyno Jet stuff in the past. The PV is almost neck and neck with what can be adjusted with the exception for EGR and setting cam timing. But, as a DIYer, the TTS method is light years ahead so far to generate a complete tune... Yes, Jason... a COMPLETE tune is tuning also. :bike: :bike: Somehow... I seem to remember that you, also, do complete tunes with TTS? I can use MLV for those 3% changes.
I'm NOT agin anythin, but call em like I see em until a REAL improved product is out there. I LOVE that PV is now on the table, as I hope they make a decent self tuning method. If I want to do a ride and pray tune... I will use a Twin Scan that I know gets it done.
I, also, agree that live tuning TTS may be a good thing. SC will roll that out when I finally get a home made crap dyno,,, :hyst: :hyst: (or one from a guy in way southern Indiana).
( I have FINALLY heard at least one valid reason to be able to swap tunes... all that crap about a fuel saver tune and a stop light tune is so much BS, but different tunes for fuel quality? I kinda like that).
Quote from: wurk_truk on August 19, 2011, 07:11:43 PM
( I have FINALLY heard at least one valid reason to be able to swap tunes... all that crap about a fuel saver tune and a stop light tune is so much BS, but different tunes for fuel quality? I kinda like that).
too funny, I was going to post the same response. :up:
Just started associating with other Harley riders in a very loose setting.
I showed a few of them the MegaLogView of the latest data run.
Huge untapped market out there, very few Harleys have any kind of tune, in my very limited exposure so far.
Pretty sure that was my point. Simply adding an inexpensive USB monitor lets you tune tts easier at least ve wise.
---
- Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Sporty 48 on August 19, 2011, 07:50:22 PM
very few Harley's have any kind of tune, in my very limited exposure so far.
This part of your statement makes absolutely no sense at all. What do you think guys like Bean, Stroker, FLTRI, Hardtail and many others do, or did you just feel like throwing your money away? Heck, even the factory "tuned" them. Else they simply would not run. Even a bad tune is a tune none the less.
As for the rest of it,
I have been following this thread hoping to gain some useful insight and so far it has pretty much amounted to nothing more than a school yard chest thumping session IMHO. And why should my opinion count? Well, for the most part, guys like me are the target market for these products.
As a DIY'er, I will use what is proven to work. At first I chose SERT, because I wanted nothing to do with anything that piggybacked my ECM, I wanted a stand alone method that allowed me to change the info in the ECM. So far that is TTS. I can rely on it and the results are repeatable. As for the PV, it still has to have a map developed in order to do it's job. As far as I know, it doesn't do anything on the fly, just allows you to push in a different map and the ECM does the rest. It has a few features that might be nice to monitor while riding if one was inclined to do so. No thanks. I am rather busy avoiding the idiots that are trying so hard to kill me. And, in order to use the Auto- tune feature, you need other add on kits. Go figure. And it too only does one bike. Doesn't sound all that different to me. With TTS, All I need is the software. dongel, the cable ( theirs not needed) and my little ol ASUS. The ASUS fits quite nicely in my saddle bag and is easy to use to pump in the map I want to use. Works for me.
Now I don't know all there is about tuning and there are plenty here who know more than I will. But I am learning. All I see right now is someone trying to sell a unproven software product and method that needs a tuning device made by someone else in order to compete with the TTS. The way I see it, it is time to put up or shut up because all I have seen on other Harley oriented sites is old posts and posts where folks ain't buying your soap. Granted, quite possible I haven't seen everything everywhere, the internet is kinda big. Every time you have been asked to prove it works, you throw it back by asking for Steve's data while claiming you have this wonderful data you collected which you say is so much better. It's getting like a kid's game of you go first. Well Steve has gone first. His company has developed a product that is in use by thousands of users. I mean anyone can make a claim on the internet, just like rubbies who claim to be BAB's. Pro tuners have asked and you have not clearly shown how it works nor that it works. What,? you expect us to just take your word for it?
Prove your little software tool and methodology does on a Harley what you claim. Steve and Master Tune already have. Proof is the sort of thing that gets my attention. Otherwise, your just wasting bandwidth.
Thanks.
The point is that of all the Harleys out there, very few have been touched by Competent tuners.
The guys here and others you mention are a tiny number as to what is out there.
Just take the Doc's TTS tuner competency questions and go ask tuners the questions......you will find out,... especially at Harley stealerships.
I know a guy had his motor done twice because of a bad tune, and he has not got it right yet.
He goes to the local independent Harley shop.
A guy Bumped into at the drug store was getting 20mpg, if he was lucky, he threw away the O2 sensors.
Suggest you look a little closer as to what is out there.
Imagine, a Harley running like a ricer, humph.
Quote from: Tsani on August 19, 2011, 11:14:51 PM
Quote from: Sporty 48 on August 19, 2011, 07:50:22 PM
very few Harley's have any kind of tune, in my very limited exposure so far.
This part of your statement makes absolutely no sense at all. What do you think guys like Bean, Stroker, FLTRI, Hardtail and many others do, or did you just feel like throwing your money away? Heck, even the factory "tuned" them. Else they simply would not run. Even a bad tune is a tune none the less.
As for the rest of it,
I have been following this thread hoping to gain some useful insight and so far it has pretty much amounted to nothing more than a school yard chest thumping session IMHO. And why should my opinion count? Well, for the most part, guys like me are the target market for these products.
As a DIY'er, I will use what is proven to work. At first I chose SERT, because I wanted nothing to do with anything that piggybacked my ECM, I wanted a stand alone method that allowed me to change the info in the ECM. So far that is TTS. I can rely on it and the results are repeatable. As for the PV, it still has to have a map developed in order to do it's job. As far as I know, it doesn't do anything on the fly, just allows you to push in a different map and the ECM does the rest. It has a few features that might be nice to monitor while riding if one was inclined to do so. No thanks. I am rather busy avoiding the idiots that are trying so hard to kill me. And, in order to use the Auto- tune feature, you need other add on kits. Go figure. And it too only does one bike. Doesn't sound all that different to me. With TTS, All I need is the software. dongel, the cable ( theirs not needed) and my little ol ASUS. The ASUS fits quite nicely in my saddle bag and is easy to use to pump in the map I want to use. Works for me.
Now I don't know all there is about tuning and there are plenty here who know more than I will. But I am learning. All I see right now is someone trying to sell a unproven software product and method that needs a tuning device made by someone else in order to compete with the TTS. The way I see it, it is time to put up or shut up because all I have seen on other Harley oriented sites is old posts and posts where folks ain't buying your soap. Granted, quite possible I haven't seen everything everywhere, the internet is kinda big. Every time you have been asked to prove it works, you throw it back by asking for Steve's data while claiming you have this wonderful data you collected which you say is so much better. It's getting like a kid's game of you go first. Well Steve has gone first. His company has developed a product that is in use by thousands of users. I mean anyone can make a claim on the internet, just like rubbies who claim to be BAB's. Pro tuners have asked and you have not clearly shown how it works nor that it works. What,? you expect us to just take your word for it? Prove your little software tool and methodology does on a Harley what you claim. Steve and Master Tune already have. Proof is the sort of thing that gets my attention. Otherwise, your just wasting bandwidth.
Your profile says your in south Jersey....Hit me up via PM if you ever want to go for a ride... ,
We have some really nice roads around here, and my buddies and I love to spend the day exploring them. were probably not that far from each other, if we hook up one weekend, lunch is on me..:)
I do not own a PV, I have invested in a lot of other devices over the years and who's to say I wont. What I can say is competition is a good thing for all us end users. Up till now TTS has been unchallenged, This will require TTS and PV to come up with new whizz bang features to compete for market share, that will be a benefit to all of us. Just think what racing has done for the development of the motor sports world. Do you think that we would have the power in the cars today? I think not. Another anallogy do you think Intell would have produced new processors at the speed and price they have with out AMD breathing down their necks? Competition is great so let the race begin it is fun to watch and we benefit in the end, and is the free market system at it's best.
Quote from: Sporty 48 on August 20, 2011, 05:35:07 AM
Thanks.
The point is that of all the Harleys out there, very few have been touched by Competent tuners.
The guys here and others you mention are a tiny number as to what is out there.
Just take the Doc's TTS tuner competency questions and go ask tuners the questions......you will find out,... especially at Harley "dealer"ships.
I know a guy had his motor done twice because of a bad tune, and he has not got it right yet.
He goes to the local independent Harley shop.
A guy Bumped into at the drug store was getting 20mpg, if he was lucky, he threw away the O2 sensors.
Suggest you look a little closer as to what is out there.
Imagine, a Harley running like a ricer, humph.
The point is that is not what your statement said. Glad to to see you have made it less generic. But I think it is still incorrect. But then maybe your running with the wrong bikes. Most I know are tuned well and run well. Maybe one or two have had an issue but that does not mean most have. Quite the opposite in my experience. But then, most the riders I know work on their own and do not rely on the dealers to work on their rides and are very fussy about the indies that do. And FYI, I do look out there and there are "tuners" that I won't let breath on my bike much less "tune" it. And no, I don't imagine my Harley running like a import as the Harley is a totally different machine. Alot of riders seem to have bike envy and fail to totally understand the machines they have. You can do a lot with a Harley if you understand it's limitations weather it's the limitations built in by the factory or the ones put in place by you. If I want a rice rocket, I will pull one out of the crew's garage and use it. But I prefer not to. I tend to push a bike and IMO, there isn't enough room in the city for the Hayabusa! Fun tho. And the ricers have their issues as well. If you want your Harley to run like a import, you bought the wrong bike. As for the O2 sensors, I don't believe they are the cause of the fella's 20 MPG. He needs to look else where. But if he doesn't want them, send them to me.
Crosshairs, I am in Thorofare. Working on the Revel in AC right now. So I run the ACE every day, great way to do some data logging :bike:. Yes, contrary to belief, NJ does have some nice roads, you just have to look for them.
Edit:
Just reread your post and looked at your profile. You meant PA. Yes, a lot of nice riding there too. I run with a Philly bunch and do spend some time on PA roads, as well as DE and MD. We have quite a bit of nice riding around here!
cts1950, I agree 100%. But claims need to be backed up with proof otherwise it is just bull. So far all I see here in this thread is someone and his apostles advocating a tuning method as the end all to tuning that uses software that someone else wrote that requires the investment in yet another's tuning equipment and accessories as required and yet there is no hard verifiable proof that it is valid on a Harley. It may very well be that he is on to something useful, but it is not a tuning device or even an aid, it is a methodology that he is developing that uses other folk's software and equipment. Most DIY's are going to want a complete package and with the exception of your chioce of computer, TTS seems to fit that bill so far. As for the whiz bang frills, most serious guys will see right thru it for what it is, fluff.
Quote from: Tsani on August 20, 2011, 08:17:01 AM
Crosshairs, I am in Thorofare. Working on the Revel in AC right now. So I run the ACE every day, great way to do so data logging :bike:. Yes, contrary to belief, NJ does have some nice roads, you just have to look for them.
Edit:
Just reread your post and looked at your profile. You meant PA. Yes, a lot of nice riding there too. I run with a Philly bunch and do spend some time on PA roads, as well as DE and MD. We have quite a bit of nice riding around here!
I actually need to change my profile.....while I technically do live in PA, since I own a house there, I spend pretty much all of my time in NJ since I work here..I find myself going back to PA less and less and just prefer to stay at the girlfriends house...if the market were better, I would sell that house..:)
I'm right near Sandy Hook, so kinda central NJ......Google puts us about 80 miles apart.....and your roads down there are much better, so we often ride that area....
As a matter of fact, I think it's time to shower up and get the girl out of her garage. Been a wet week and it looks so nice out there. Maybe head to Delaware for my weekly supply of ceegars via some back roads to the DMB.
Quote from: hotroadking on August 19, 2011, 09:40:16 PM
Pretty sure that was my point. Simply adding an inexpensive USB monitor lets you tune tts easier at least ve wise.
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I was agreeing with ya. Just expanding on it for others.
Quote from: wurk_truk on August 20, 2011, 02:57:47 PM
Quote from: hotroadking on August 19, 2011, 09:40:16 PM
Pretty sure that was my point. Simply adding an inexpensive USB monitor lets you tune tts easier at least ve wise.
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I was agreeing with ya. Just expanding on it for others.
I agree with your agreement LOL
wait, we can't do that it's AFR Zone! LOL
TTS compared to PowerVision
Picture a TTS dongle that has the ability to hold all of the standard pre made tunes available for your bike plus up to 5 of your own tunes all saved on the dongle with a digital display. This display also has the ability to display any of the available data fields on the display. Gallons used, average fuel economy, instantaneous fuel economy, distance traveled, speed, tach, fuel trims and lots more.
Histograms as a tuning aid are in the works. Mine does it now.
Tuning the entire map and not just a few select values is in the works. All it takes is finding time for the coders to do the typing.
My bet is there is lots more to come.....
AW
Quote from: whittlebeast on August 21, 2011, 04:46:48 PM
My bet is there is lots more to come.....
AW
On both products I am sure. And from what I have heard, read and experienced, TTS is still the better tuning aid and I suspect it will adapt and continue. I don't need anything else hanging on my bars, the GPS is enough. The TTS uses my notebook, which also does a whole lot more and holds a whole lot more and fits very nicely in my saddlebag. As for gallons used, I have a fuel gauge and know how it read it, fuel economy - I have a trip meter too and can do the math in my head on the fly. Same goes for distance traveled, speed- have a speedo and the GPS ( which also does the MPG, avg speed, distance, etc) when I have it in it's mount, gee, all fluff. You still have to manually do the tune and boot it in with either device. So until we have a proven fully adaptable self tune on the fly ECM, I will stick with what I have. I don't chase every doodad or geewhiz device that comes along. I will use what is proven and works. And that includes the Dyno and the pro tuner too.
Well we won't have long. FBI new iPad fairings. Shown at sturgis.
Now all we need is iTTS app
(http://tapatalk.com/mu/44cde398-e14e-6d27.jpg)
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TeamViewer would work perfect.
You guys are funny.
Who says tuning is not fun?
QuoteAs for the whiz bang frills, most serious guys will see right thru it for what it is, fluff.
Amen pass the biscuts. :soda:
Yep, Just like the camera industry said about 10 years ago when the early camera phones came out. It is just a passing fad.... Those things are just toys.
The early fuel injection stuff was the same way when it was on the 63 Vetts as an option. By 83, this stuff was getting fairly cool. The carb guys said just about the same thing.
AW
Quote from: whittlebeast on August 23, 2011, 08:45:13 AM
Yep, Just like the camera industry said about 10 years ago when the early camera phones came out...Those things are just toys.
And the first ones were toys!
Quote
The early fuel injection stuff was the same way when it was on the 63 Vetts as an option.
These Rochester fuel dispensers were a friggin' joke! They only worked for a few hundred miles before they needed recalibration. They were no where near as reliable and potent as the venerable AFBs when worked properly.
QuoteBy 83, this stuff was getting fairly cool.
...and it took only 20 years!!! :hyst:
...and here we are over 40 years of development and woohoo!!! Nirvana?
Bob
Fact is technology has allowed EFI to come on the scene with pretty good performance from day one.
It is the tuning software folks who have made EFI so good by making adjustments available for virtually all running conditions.
Bob
Good points Bob. The competition gets good, really fast with the next generation of any idea. Like the Droid... near great right out of the box.
In the software world, as the programers say "it's just typing".
AW
Will it tune a V-Rod?
Since I have a one bike de-vice with the TTS, a new tuning de-vice would have to be purchased when I get a V-ROd.
Do the Power Visions do more than one bike?
Quote from: Sporty 48 on August 23, 2011, 06:12:34 PM
Will it tune a V-Rod?
Since I have a one bike de-vice with the TTS, a new tuning de-vice would have to be purchased when I get a V-ROd.
Do the Power Visions do more than one bike?
Don't know about the PV, but you can upgrade your TTS to do two bikes.
--Gary
Quote from: Steve Cole on August 19, 2011, 08:20:43 AM
So another words Andy you have no data to support your claims. Your claim is its faster, you have both units so let's see the raw data showing it. You can adjust how fast or slow the TTS logs the data so unless you have turned it down slower we capture the data as fast as the ECM will send it. The TTS DataMaster will capture data at max. rate of 20 frames per second and the ECM typically runs at 4-5 frames per second. We do not have a PV nor do we plan on getting one just to see what we already know. We know how fast the ECM will send data out and we have checked many times that we get it all and I would guess that the PV is getting it all as well.
Steve
You should be happy to hear that the Bib Twin data logs are coming down at right a 16 per sec on the Power Vision stuff. They look just like your logs.
AW
Quote from: whittlebeast on August 24, 2011, 01:52:24 PM
Quote from: Steve Cole on August 19, 2011, 08:20:43 AM
So another words Andy you have no data to support your claims. Your claim is its faster, you have both units so let's see the raw data showing it. You can adjust how fast or slow the TTS logs the data so unless you have turned it down slower we capture the data as fast as the ECM will send it. The TTS DataMaster will capture data at max. rate of 20 frames per second and the ECM typically runs at 4-5 frames per second. We do not have a PV nor do we plan on getting one just to see what we already know. We know how fast the ECM will send data out and we have checked many times that we get it all and I would guess that the PV is getting it all as well.
Steve
You should be happy to hear that the Bib Twin data logs are coming down at right a 16 per sec on the Power Vision stuff. They look just like your logs.
AW
What is the exact list of ALL items the raw data log contains? The ECM has a hardware limit on how fast it can send data; the only way to get more frames per second is to request fewer items. I would suspect the PV is requesting fewer items per frame, thus the higher frame rate. No problem with this, but not as many data items will be available for viewing in a given log. It is also possible the PV frames are 'synthetic' and built from items that arrive with different data rates. This results in repeated data for all items that have not been updated in a given frame. All depends on how PV defines the data frames, there are lots of ways to handle this.
--Gary
Quote from: whittlebeast on August 24, 2011, 01:52:24 PM
Quote from: Steve Cole on August 19, 2011, 08:20:43 AM
So another words Andy you have no data to support your claims. Your claim is its faster, you have both units so let's see the raw data showing it. You can adjust how fast or slow the TTS logs the data so unless you have turned it down slower we capture the data as fast as the ECM will send it. The TTS DataMaster will capture data at max. rate of 20 frames per second and the ECM typically runs at 4-5 frames per second. We do not have a PV nor do we plan on getting one just to see what we already know. We know how fast the ECM will send data out and we have checked many times that we get it all and I would guess that the PV is getting it all as well.
Steve
You should be happy to hear that the Bib Twin data logs are coming down at right a 16 per sec on the Power Vision stuff. They look just like your logs.
AW
So if we show that it's only running 4 -5 frames per second and they are trying to say it's 16 frames per second and they look the same, I've got no idea of what they are doing, as I can assure you it's not 16 frames per second unless your only trying to get a couple data items by themselves. If you use our "Dyno Data" which is a
very limited data set I believe it only runs near 16 and that is at the hardware limit of the ECM. As you add more data it comes out slower because you are running on the hardware limit of the ECM. This is just why we built various data types to get just what we needed to do a specific job. The more you ask for the slower it runs and there is nothing we or anyone else can do about it short of a new ECM design.
Quote from: Sporty 48 on August 23, 2011, 06:12:34 PM
Will it tune a V-Rod?
Since I have a one bike de-vice with the TTS, a new tuning de-vice would have to be purchased when I get a V-ROd.
Do the Power Visions do more than one bike?
PCV is locked to only 1 bike. Just like TTS. You can do 2 bikes with TTS for extra cash. You got to understand if the manufactures didn't do this. I could tune everybodys bike in Belleville with one unit.
With PV, tuning several bikes is coming. Call Jamie at Fuelmoto for details.
I just got back to the motel after a 400 mile ride today through the Canadian rocky mountians banff to jasper and back. I got the best mpg ever 53 mpg the guy I am riding with is getting 43 on the same road and speed mostly on cruse control. Having good fuel makes a huge difference no e10 . that has to count for at least 5% both bikes are ultras and 95" engines one is vtuned and on closed loop and one is hand tuned and in open loop. Guess which one has more power and better fuel economy. There is a difference the vtuned one is a 2 into 1 D&D fat-cat with the quiet baffle Big boyz heads woods tw6 and the hand tuned is a true dual with home made mufflers my own heads and 203 cams. From what I have read the fat cat should be superior.
I'd guess yours has more power. It's your right? What are the conditions of the test or is this just opinion?
UN scientific but when doing a 4th gear roll on for passing cars and being in radio communication so that we were doing the same thing at the same time I consistently would out accelerate the other bike. On this trip this has been consistant for the last 1800 miles. The owner of the other bike is ready to try open loop tuning. There is another difference between the bike setup the other bike has 32-70 final drive I am running 32-68 final drive the other bike should have a numerical advantage for acceleration.
Quote from: cts1950
..... hand tuned ...
quote
Is that what it is?
Sounds like a great little vacation to me.
Have yet to take out the rich spots, bet that is where the mileage increase comes from, either that or easing off on the throttle fella..
Quote from: cts1950 on August 25, 2011, 06:04:45 AM
UN scientific but when doing a 4th gear roll on for passing cars and being in radio communication so that we were doing the same thing at the same time I consistently would out accelerate the other bike. On this trip this has been consistant for the last 1800 miles. The owner of the other bike is ready to try open loop tuning. There is another difference between the bike setup the other bike has 32-70 final drive I am running 32-68 final drive the other bike should have a numerical advantage for acceleration.
Just because you use Vtune doesn't mean your going to get the best of everything possible. It is a tool and you are in charge of the tool. It only corrects to what you set it up for. So remember if you set things up for high CLB voltage or low lambda values as the target it's going to cost you in mileage because that is what you told it to do. My personal vtuned bike, a 2011 Road glide turn in 50 mpg on 89 octane E10 fuel and that's in town and mountain driving. Others are seeing the same or better mileage as well so it's all in how you set the targets for the tool to tune too.
Quote from: cts1950 on August 25, 2011, 06:04:45 AM
UN scientific...
Just a little...
1) Different cams
2) Different compression
3) Different heads
4) Different exhaust
5) Different gear ratios
Both bikes running leg fairings and the same windscreens?
Both bikes run the same tires @ same tire pressures?
So, with all the above variables it sure is hard to say which bike's tune quality is better.
FWIW, 99% of the time the v-tuned (cruise) bike will run leaner than a "hand tuned" bike. (14.3-14.6:1 vs 13.5-14:1)
A bit leaner AFR cruise will always provide a bit better mileage...same bike back-to-back comparison for the same miles/trip.
Just observations,
Bob
Both bikes are floating along at close to 1500 lbs....
Knowing Chris (CTS1950), I bet at 80 MPH, but that is just a guess. I will be getting a log soon.
AW
Quote from: whittlebeast on August 25, 2011, 09:36:52 AM
Both bikes are floating along at close to 1500 lbs....
Knowing Chris (CTS1950), I bet at 80 MPH, but that is just a guess. I will be getting a log soon.
AW
Doesn't change the fact the only similarities are they are both 95 cubic inch ULtras. Both riders weight the same?
Bob
Different heads, different cams, different pipes, different riders,
But the reason for fuel mileage difference is solely due the open vs closed loop tunes reason only.... :potstir:
But it all comes down to how much HP does it take to push that boat with X areo drag and Y weight and Z tires down the road. Most all motors of a given basic design have darn close to the same true volumetric efficiency.
AW
Quote from: whittlebeast on August 25, 2011, 11:18:07 AM
But it all comes down to how much HP does it take to push that boat with X areo drag and Y weight and Z tires down the road.
But those are certainly some
big variables (x, y, & z) that affect how much power is needed to push the boat through the air and dowbn the road as well as up the hills/mountains.
QuoteMost all motors of a given basic design have darn close to the same true volumetric efficiency.
As long as all the variables involved are accounted for this is true...lots of variables that affect results...which is part of why there are tune differences between same design & build.
Some of the variables we can control...some we cannot. :wink:
Bob
AW
[/quote]
What about wax, was one bike clean, waxed and smooth?
That can affect drag, is one person taller, larger, wider?
Just saying making the statement that the only thing
that made a difference is open vs closed loop isn't complete.
of course this is JMO...
If the bikes are anyways close, Baggers.
They try to do it the same....
It is the Tune that matters. We know it, that is why we are here, gee.
Quote from: cts1950 on August 24, 2011, 09:11:25 PM
I just got back to the motel after a 400 mile ride today through the Canadian rocky mountians banff to jasper and back. I got the best mpg ever 53 mpg the guy I am riding with is getting 43 on the same road and speed mostly on cruse control. Having good fuel makes a huge difference no e10 . that has to count for at least 5% both bikes are ultras and 95" engines one is vtuned and on closed loop and one is hand tuned and in open loop. Guess which one has more power and better fuel economy. There is a difference the vtuned one is a 2 into 1 D&D fat-cat with the quiet baffle Big boyz heads woods tw6 and the hand tuned is a true dual with home made mufflers my own heads and 203 cams. From what I have read the fat cat should be superior.
This comes as no surprise to me.
I would expect these results to be provable again and again , as the better tune will win every time.
Its all about getting the most power out of the fuel you burn.
an incorrect/incomplete tune will be blowing un burned fuel out the tailpipes
Quote from: Sporty 48 on August 25, 2011, 01:47:01 PM
If the bikes are anyways close, Baggers.
They try to do it the same....
It is the Tune that matters. We know it, that is why we are here, gee.
The tune does matter, but there other things to look at. Same bike doing the same trip. OL vs. CL. Then I could forgive a couple MPG. But the comparison is apples to ornges. Most bikes I see have speedo's off by 5 MPH.
A lot of smart guys here. People that take time for repeatable test and keeping variables to a minimum comparing one thing to the next. It's a known standard to change one thing at a time when doing comparisons. The one posted above will not fly here. Or should it.
Those two bikes are running side by side for 2000 miles in the next weeks. When one puts in 4 gallons and the other puts in 5...
They started on the north west coast and running to central Canada and back.
AW
Andy
You know that there are a ton of variables that are not being covered here and to make any claim that this is an Open loop versus Closed loop tune test, is just piss poor at best. Yes, you say 2 bikes are being ridden side by side, one has been working on a tune for the past few years for his combination of parts, and the other has done what? We do not know other than he has used a closed loop tune but we have no idea how good or bad of a job was done let alone what it was setup for. So if it's setup for max cooling or best MPG? Was the timing tested and adjusted as it has been on the open loop tune. Look at the variations in just the motor builds as a starting point as to why things maybe different, then move on to everything else that is different between the bikes. All you can say accurately is the MPG is different between two bikes, as all the rest is pure speculation.
my bike was vtuned (2011 RGU) and I get 50+ mpg under most conditions and just got back from Canada and my tank was dead empty 300 miles on the tank and I filled up with 85 as that was all there was and never ran better. I swear I was expecting it to at least ping a bit and it ran great. I was riding loaded 2 up and coming back when I hit the states again I kept it at 80-85mph and still got 45mpg. Normally I would be worried about the mpg being so high thinking I was way lean but no signs of leanness that I can see. no ping, plugs and pipes look good motor not excessively hot tho the cat was freaking hot as I had put the lowers back on as there was supposed to be rain. great throttle response too
For what it is worth the odometers are quite close the other reads about reads about 1% higher but for milage we are using my odometer because I have the calculator. I did the vtune on the other bike about 12 full histograms to set the tune. We started with the clbs set for the canned map on this trip when we started out at sea level on e10 the closed loop bike got about 29 mpg mine was at 37 after the first day of 440 miles of data logging I could see that both bikes were rich in 100* temps I reset my ve tables in the richest spots and set the clb of the other bike at 480 mv. This helped the next few tanks the average was 34 and 43 respectively. Once we got to Montana and no more e10 things got better. Both engines have cast flattop pistons both have the same valve size the other is using cometic .030 head gaskets mine has stock gaskets. I out weigh my buddy by at least 60 pounds and am packing more weight on to the bike. Tomorrow we will have about 5.5 hour ride to Kamloops for the Canadian national hog rally. I been knocked out by the scenery. We have had problems after the first day getting data for the other bike for some reason his data stops after 2500 hits we have not had time to diagnose what the problem is loose connection or overloaded inverter. Time to go find the swimming pool.
argue about the comparison all you want :down:
the fact that YOU got 53 mpg on a bagger ...out of a open loop tune is fantastic :up:
if the bike wasent dialed in, 53 mpg claim would scare the hell out of me. too be honest it still would scare the hell out of me :nix:
sounds like you are dialed in lean and very steady on the wick :beer:
If you want to do an easy test take one bike and check the cruise RPM and the kPa and compare that to the other on the same stretch of road at the same speed. Since the bikes have different gearing, different weights and different motor combinations this is going to show how the load is on the engine at the same speed. Report back with the numbers,please.
Quote from: strokerjlk on August 25, 2011, 06:21:24 PM
the fact that YOU got 53 mpg on a bagger ...out of a open loop tune is fantastic :up:
if the bike wasent dialed in, 53 mpg claim would scare the hell out of me. too be honest it still would scare the hell out of me :nix:
sounds like you are dialed in lean and very steady on the wick :beer:
:up: I agree, that would scare me too. :nix:
Quote from: mayor on August 25, 2011, 06:27:22 PM
Quote from: strokerjlk on August 25, 2011, 06:21:24 PM
the fact that YOU got 53 mpg on a bagger ...out of a open loop tune is fantastic :up:
if the bike wasent dialed in, 53 mpg claim would scare the hell out of me. too be honest it still would scare the hell out of me :nix:
sounds like you are dialed in lean and very steady on the wick :beer:
:up: I agree, that would scare me too. :nix:
damit Mayor your scaring me know LOL.
yea, but you'll be changing the pipe soon enough...and that super gas milage may be gone. :dgust: besides, I thought you were only doing a measly 50, not 53. :hyst:
Quote from: mayor on August 25, 2011, 06:44:08 PM
yea, but you'll be changing the pipe soon enough...and that super gas milage may be gone. :dgust: besides, I thought you were only doing a measly 50, not 53. :hyst:
heck i have gotten higher then 53 but not on a regular basis. I did a 226 mile ride today and managed to squeez 4.4 gallons in and it was overflowing. I hope the pipe change won't be a big mpg eater lol.
I get what Steve is getting at with the KPA post, one bike could easily be running at a higher KPA, hence richer afr target than the other.
53 MPG? No thanks, I'll buy some gas and keep my motor a bit cooler.
My 114 on our Sturgis trip did 34 MPG fully loaded down, two up and pulling a very heavily loaded trailer at 75mph, bump it to 80 plus and lost 3-4 per gallon depending on wind. After getting there, removing the tour pack, unhooking the trailer an easy cruise around the Black Hills netted 43. I did my best to try to keep the fills equal but with such a small tank and the possibility of the bike leaning differently these numbers could easily be off a few percent.
Comparing two bikes and rider styles such as you have with different cams and pipes is in no way an accurate gauge of closed vs open loop. The sweet spot (peak torque) could easily be 5-7 hundred rpm different from one to the next based on exhaust alone, not to mention cams.
Oh yeah, as you may have guessed my bike is open loop. Closed loop is for tuning :teeth:
The speed limits up here are ridiculous most riding was at 55 to 60 both of us used the cruse controls for most of the riding hours at a time. Both bikes have lowers on one is a 05 mine is a 06 both have o2 sensors. They are also using the same SE high compression spark plugs. I expect the numbers to drop when we get closer to the coast and sea level and especially when we have to use the lousy e10 California blend that our crooked lame duck Governor empirically decided to require it against the peoples choice because he drank the enviro cool aid. Who knows I have a iso drive so that may count for better mpg. The difference has been consistant through the trip not one fueling. Heck we even add fuel until it covers the baffle just below the fuel cap to get the maximum range on 5 gallons. At this time 1970 miles from the start. Heck we even changed the oil the day before we left and are using mobile 1 for v twin.
Quote from: BVHOG on August 25, 2011, 07:55:33 PM
...Closed loop is for tuning :teeth:
...not to mention its ability to adjust the calibration on the fly for differing fuel qualities as experienced when riding from state to state octane variations, different season mixes, and old/stale vs new/fresh fuels and their actual ethanol % mixes.
Open loop tunes cannot compensate or in any way adapt to or adjust for fuel variations which need consideration as tunes are done.
Bob
Quote from: FLTRI on August 26, 2011, 01:55:01 AM
Quote from: BVHOG on August 25, 2011, 07:55:33 PM
...Closed loop is for tuning :teeth:
...not to mention its ability to adjust the calibration on the fly for differing fuel qualities as experienced when riding from state to state octane variations, different season mixes, and old/stale vs new/fresh fuels and their actual ethanol % mixes.
Open loop tunes cannot compensate or in any way adapt to or adjust for fuel variations which need consideration as tunes are done.
Bob
So obviously you must convert every pre 07 bike (06 dyna excluded) to closed loop before you tune?
That what this is all about, getting the most out of the fuel.
Just starting to understand some of the Open Loop, Closed Loop advocates positions.
This site has the sort of thing that gets my attention, sound tuning logic, yes!
I've been looking hard at all gas pumps around Ohio. The best one I saw was at a BP that said " The fuel at this site has been enhanced by adding E10 mixture". HAHA!! Not as many E10 sites as I first thought. We must ship our cornogas over to Cali. I don't ride the western half of Ohio much, though, too damn flat, and that side is where they make all the alcohol.... which isn't a lot.
Quote from: BVHOG on August 26, 2011, 03:50:31 AM
Quote from: FLTRI on August 26, 2011, 01:55:01 AM
Quote from: BVHOG on August 25, 2011, 07:55:33 PM
...Closed loop is for tuning :teeth:
...not to mention its ability to adjust the calibration on the fly for differing fuel qualities as experienced when riding from state to state octane variations, different season mixes, and old/stale vs new/fresh fuels and their actual ethanol % mixes.
Open loop tunes cannot compensate or in any way adapt to or adjust for fuel variations which need consideration as tunes are done.
Bob
So obviously you must convert every pre 07 bike (06 dyna excluded) to closed loop before you tune?
HUH? I'm sorry for not making my point
more obvious: :emoGroan:
1) Closed loop, O2 feedback EFI adjusts for fuel variances.
2) Open loop EFI cannot adjust for fuel variances.
Not sure how this relates to me obviously converting all pre closed loop EFI bike to closed loop prior to tuning. :scratch:
Just the facts...no opinion here,
Bob
Actually, I have been fine tuning using Open Loop.
The O2 sensors work just fine for data logging while in Open Loop.
Using MegaLogViewer to find the holes.
Hope to go closed loop some day on part of the table.
Just to try it....
Quote from: BVHOG on August 25, 2011, 07:55:33 PM
Oh yeah, as you may have guessed my bike is open loop. Closed loop is for tuning :teeth:
Power Vision has the ability to shoot for a target AFR of leaner than 14.6 I was running 14.7 last night just for fun.
It only runs closed lop when the target AFR = 14.6 This makes it really easy to find the rich holes in the VE maps just like we use it now to find the lean holes. You can set the target AFR all the way to 18.1 if you desire. Not sure why you would do that but I may play with it in overrun.
Way cool stuff
AW
Was going to try that with TTS.
Most are set at 14.3 now, 0.4 AFR is less than a 3% difference, should get those rich areas to stick right out.
Thanks Andy.
Quote from: whittlebeast on August 26, 2011, 09:43:06 AM
Power Vision has the ability to shoot for a target AFR of leaner than 14.6 I was running 14.7 last night just for fun.
It only runs closed lop when the target AFR = 14.6 This makes it really easy to find the rich holes in the VE maps just like we use it now to find the lean holes. You can set the target AFR all the way to 18.1 if you desire. Not sure why you would do that but I may play with it in overrun.
Way cool stuff
AW
Quote from: whittlebeast on August 26, 2011, 09:43:06 AM
Power Vision has the ability to shoot for a target AFR of leaner than 14.6 I was running 14.7 last night just for fun.
Not much fun leaner than 14.5...runs too hot IME.
QuoteIt only runs closed loop when the target AFR = 14.6
This is the software switch to go to closed loop operation. No one has found these bikes run better @ 14.6-or leaner AFR than @ 13.5-14.3.
Andy,
Please run down the step-by-step procedure for how to make identifying lean/rich "holes" "really easy".
Sorry if I am asking for details to support your statements but if you have found an easier, faster way to get VEs spot on I'd really like to consider it...but so far just statements like "way cool stuff" and "makes it really easy to find the...holes" doesn't explain how this is done. :nix:
Bob
Bob
You really need to DL and register the software for me to have any prayer of me helping you get your head around how I am doing this.
Several people have called me and I walk them thru it. Once you see a few of the tricks it gets really cool. Phil tells me a huge update is coming in a few days. I think he is going to it HogLogViewer that is a little more tailored to viewing Harley logs. Right now it will graph almost any CSV log.
CTS1950 posted a fairly detailed description early in this thread.
AW
You really need to just play around with the software to see what the big deal is.
When your working with the scatter plots, the lean spots and fat spots just jump right out at you..you make your adjustments and run another log to make sure you got it...
I spent $500.00 for a tuner, so $25.00 for a piece of software to help me is a bargain ..Hell, I would bet most people here spent way more than $25.00 for some chrome doo dads that do nothing..... ;D
Bob,
You might be right that 14.7 is too lean.
I am just not sure that 14.5 will be lean enough to pick out the rich spots.
It is only 1.4% different than the 14.3 AFR setting, now if I was anal retentive about this tune it would be another thing.
Rob
Quote from: whittlebeast on August 26, 2011, 02:12:45 PM
Bob
You really need to DL and register the software for me to have any prayer of me helping you get your head around how I am doing this...
Right now I'm only looking for the procedure to evaluate the time from recording until targets are accomplished. :idea:
You know, like a step by step procedure for logging through evaluation including time to locate, change, and relog to see differences.
Thanks,
Bob
I would think that from the time I get off the bike, to the time I am getting back on with a new tune may be 15 min. I can get really close on a tune in about 5 rides. Flat dialed in in 10.
Phil just emailed me and indicated he got the newest version of MLV posted and that gets around the Excel step with PowerVision as you can now open up the PV loges directly.
AW
Quote from: whittlebeast on August 26, 2011, 05:33:50 PM
I would think that from the time I get off the bike, to the time I am getting back on with a new tune may be 15 min. I can get really close on a tune in about 5 rides. Flat dialed in in 10.
Phil just emailed me and indicated he got the newest version of MLV posted and that gets around the Excel step with PowerVision as you can now open up the PV loges directly.
AW
Can I read Datamaster and SESPT logs directly with MLV?
Bob
Bob I just got the latest update to MLV it will open the datamaster file directly I can not speak to the sespt it is a beta version and I found a bug but those are fixed quickly give it a day or two.
Assuming you mean Datamaster.
Here are the steps to convert the data file:
Export the file as an CSV.
Change data count to minimum 20,000.
Under Export Data do the tedious Assign Variable to each of the TTS tables.
Under Datamaster, Setup, Display, check Auto Recall Display assignments so you will not have to assign variables again..
Questions?
Quote from: cts1950 on August 26, 2011, 09:45:53 PM
Bob I just got the latest update to MLV it will open the datamaster file directly I can not speak to the sespt it is a beta version and I found a bug but those are fixed quickly give it a day or two.
Quote from: cts1950 on August 26, 2011, 09:45:53 PM
...it will open the datamaster file directly
Quote from: Sporty 48 on August 27, 2011, 08:31:18 AM
Assuming you mean Datamaster.
Here are the steps to convert the data file:
Export the file as an CSV.
Change data count to minimum 20,000.
Under Export Data do the tedious Assign Variable to each of the TTS tables.
Under Datamaster, Setup, Display, check Auto Recall Display assignments so you will not have to assign variables again..
Questions?
:scratch:
Bob
Bob
Sporty48 is not playing with the newest beta stuff CTS1950 and I are playing with.
AW
Goodie, things are moving faster.
Better get a new data file and check this out.
For some reason was not getting the updates, had to re-enter the subscription key.
Here is the link to the latest stuff. There should be no registration key but this beta copy will time out some time in October. If you have a registered version of the older beta, it continue to work. Being beta stuff, he has yet to work out that background acounting details. He is thinking about making it so if you have a license now, you will get to choose if you want to make it for the Megasquirt version or the HD version.
This version even does the scatter graphs.
http://www.efianalytics.com/MegaLogViewerHD/download/ (http://www.efianalytics.com/MegaLogViewerHD/download/)
Just download the EXE in the center of the page.
Have fun tuning.
AW
Just found out TTS will not allow AFR setting lower than 14.6.
Learning slowly.
Quote from: whittlebeast on August 26, 2011, 09:43:06 AM
Power Vision has the ability to shoot for a target AFR of leaner than 14.6 I was running 14.7 last night just for fun.
It only runs closed lop when the target AFR = 14.6 This makes it really easy to find the rich holes in the VE maps just like we use it now to find the lean holes. You can set the target AFR all the way to 18.1 if you desire. Not sure why you would do that but I may play with it in overrun.
Way cool stuff
AW
Yes, we set the limit to 14.6 in Mastertune as we did not want people burning up there engines from not know what they were doing. I've seen to many people not understand what they have read on forums like this and hurt there engines so we have plenty of safety limits set in our software.
Bob said so earlier and now Steve.
Thanks.
My problem was the MegaLogViewer scale was set in Volts, not MiliVolts so my scale was off. I freaked with all the Blue.
Once I changed that I found, yes, there are still some Lean spots, getting smaller, but still there. The rest was still rich, good.
Like Andy said, this is not for the faint of heart.
Looking Great, wanting to make it better.
Quote from: Steve Cole on August 27, 2011, 01:23:17 PM
Yes, we set the limit to 14.6 in Mastertune as we did not want people burning up there engines from not know what they were doing. I've seen to many people not understand what they have read on forums like this and hurt there engines so we have plenty of safety limits set in our software.
Quote from: Steve Cole on August 27, 2011, 01:23:17 PM
Yes, we set the limit to 14.6 in Mastertune as we did not want people burning up there engines from not know what they were doing. I've seen to many people not understand what they have read on forums like this and hurt there engines so we have plenty of safety limits set in our software.
While I can understand why you would do that, I was never big on a product that tries to protect me from myself.
When someone is paying top dollar for tuning device, the least you can do is allow them to burn a few pistons ...that's probably a lessons one does not soon forget :teeth:
A burned piston is a product liability issue. Lawyers ain't cheap.
Whatever, point TTS.
My datalog of AFR setting 14.5 is not exactly flashing out the answers.
Got the new HD MegaLogViewer to take the data file and give scatterplots, just inexperienced to be able to interpret them.
Will keep at it.
Well now that this is coming full circle again it appears to me that there are quite a few of you that do not know or understand how a closed loop system works. The ECM is going to drive the system to the lean side of the set point for a period of time, then switch and drive it back to the rich side, over and over a gain, this is how it controls the mixture. So if your going to look for some specific voltage and call anything larger rich and anything smaller lean, where is that place going to be when the system is working just as designed? Remember you have to leave room for it to switch about the value you select. Now if your going to set the point to be 450mV then you should clearly expect the system to go above and below that voltage time and time again. If it is controlling well it will spend 50% of it's time below the set point and 50% of the time above the set point.
If you expect them to be all above the set point you are going to be wrong and if you try and force the system there it's not going to stay that way! One needs to look at the output of the sensor and see what a large change in mV really gets you for change in the fuel ratio in it's normal operating range as some of you are trying to make it into something it clearly is not.
1.002 = 14.71 = 320mV
.995 = 14.61 = 741 mV
So if you set the centering point at 530mV and the system controls just as it is designed to you will spend 50% of your time above that voltage and 50% of your time below that voltage and the AFR would be moving a big huge amount of 0.05 AFR and anyone who thinks that is going to matter any is sadly mistake. The HD engine doesn't much care if the AFR wonders around about .5 AFR provided it doesn't always stay below 450mV. So if you set the centering point and see if going both lower and higher voltage than the set point what you really need to be doing is measure the amount of time spent on both sides of the set point to see how the system is working. It's going to swing about 200 mV either side of your set point on average and do it about every 3 engine cycles but, you cannot measure that with the data being gathered from the factory ECM! So now look at these scatter plots with this in mind and what does it show you?
Steve
You are once again jumping to conclusions. Most all of this tuning is done in open loop. Closed loop is only used in the first step of the process when vtuning or the PowerVision Log Tunter is used to get in the VEs in the ballpark.
AW
Yes, the tune is open loop.
Interesting looking at that data.
It looks like the datalogged AFR stayed near the 14.2 rather than the 14.5 I set it at.
Curious, must be the rest of the table has influence.
Must be careful, would like to get 5,000 miles out of these pistons. Ha!
I did not jump to any conclusions at all. If we go back to your early posts in this very thread you started out blaming this issue on closed loop. Then you go on to why is the XL model different than the BT because one dithers the 2 cylinders together and the other does not, just more BS that amounts to nothing. Once we explained why you could not do what you were doing you then changed what you said to doing it open loop only. Then you moved on to saying that PV gathered more data then DataMaster and I had to show you again it did not. Look at any of the plots posted and your chasing values that are well within a narrow range of AFR's and making a big deal out of it. The engine does not care if the O2 voltage is reading 320 mV or 741 mV as that's only a change of 0.1 AFR! . So now you change the claim to open loop but the underlying issue is the same and that is your trying to take the data from the ECM and your missing too much of it to really see what is going on and trying to do it. The color plots are pretty and all but again the range of mixture change is way too small. If you really want to be way cool then get out from behind the keyboard and get a real data logger going fast enough and accurate on a HD engine enough to see what's really going on as PV or DataMaster logs are not going to get you there as the issue is NOT coming from either one of them.
The engine in a HD is going to change mixture day to day more than the amount you think you are trying to measure, why do you think we tell everyone to stop once they get corrections within 5%? It's not that I would not like it better but I know what goes on in the real world. The system has it's limits and there is nothing you or I are going to do to change them. Then factor in the changes in climate conditions and the fuel from tank to tank and you have much more variation than you are chasing here.
Again not jumping to any conclusions but looking at the facts in the real world.
Tuning is what I find is faster, not the data rate. You jumped to conclusions again. You are correct in that these things have trouble holding tune with outside changes. Do you have any idea what is busted in the code that is the root cause of this issue?
AW
Why is it that you always jump to conclusions that the code is busted since you do not understand how it works? You need to do the work instead of sitting behind a keyboard and claiming (making up)things are busted because it doesn't do what you think it should. Find the root cause of the issue and fix it, then things will work just fine. I've tried to explain it several times but you just do not want to here it, or believe it. If and when you get out from behind the keyboard and get into the real world of HD engines and motorcycles you might figure out that it's a system and the whole system needs to work together. All the rest of us have had to do it so how about you doing it too.
The code is indeed, not busted. It is running as requested for the type of parameters that have to be maintained for a good and proper tune.
I have to agree with Rider 57. The code is not "busted". It is as HD and it's supplier wrote it, tested it and accepted it. It works the way it was designed. Now because it does not work the way "we" would like is a different matter.
As for the matter of limiting the tuning software in so far as the AFR limits, I can see where it is indeed needed. Think about from the view point of TTS, you have got people out there who will sue over their own stupidy even when warned, such as riding in shorts and buring their legs on a hot engine. They will do no less when it comes to tuning thier engines. TTS is giving us a fully fuctional tuning aid that works within the theirdesigned parameters. Hopefully you and I have read the manual and understand the parameters, limits, etc. If we don't understand something, we ask and I have had my questions answered when I have asked. The TTS sofware works as designed. If it is not within the users needs, then find something that is. Or you make your wants known and if the manufacturer can or is willing to accomendate you, then so be it.
While at Kamloops rally I had a chance to talk with some folks up from Texas and they were also reporting high mpg in the 50s when at higher altitudes. As I expected when I returned to sea level and e10 the mpg dropped to 45 mpg. On my friends bike we started open loop tuning and the last few fuel stops his bike was up to 40 mpg at sea level. The tip was flawless 3000 miles in 10 days glad to be home. I must have been exposed to something at the closing ceremony and dinner at Kamloops came down with some sort of crud.
I got the wideband graphing working this morning. This is data off a fairly well sorted PowerVision tune. On the left is the Target AFR that the owner is shooting for and on the right is the data coming off the widebands. Way Cool stuff.
I should have a wide band soon for the wife's bike. Chris, your hosed. HEHE
Beast
(http://www.ncs-stl.com/PVTune/PVWideBandTune.JPG)
Quote from: whittlebeast on September 02, 2011, 09:44:57 AM
I got the wideband graphing working this morning.
Sorry, I got lost earlier in this thread, are you using broadbands or widebands, and how are you callibrating them?
The data I was working with is coming off the standard stuff PowerVision sells as a wideband kit. That was not my bike. I normally tune with the stock o2s.
Beast
For the guys willing to think a little out of the box, I tuned this car with exactly the same tuning logic I use on the Harleys.
It appears that we got the tune fairly close.
(http://image.hotrod.com/f/38558220/hrdp-1109w-drag-week-2011-day-1-topeka-51.jpg)
Quote from: whittlebeast on September 06, 2011, 04:00:15 AM
The data I was working with is coming off the standard stuff PowerVision sells as a wideband kit. That was not my bike. I normally tune with the stock o2s.
Beast
OK, so those are really broad band sensors, not the more accurate wide band sensors. Home much do you think your measurements are skewed (or the tuning off) because of the potential for inaccuracy.... like how are you sure you are getting accurate enough measurements... are you just trusting the powervision marketing sheet?
I understand getting close enough for an effective tune... just wanted to get a handle around fooling ourselves with trying to tune finer than the measurement tollerance of the data we are using...
Looks like that chassis needs some work getting the car moving more forward than upward :).
Quote from: yositime on September 14, 2011, 05:31:32 AM
Quote from: whittlebeast on September 06, 2011, 04:00:15 AM
The data I was working with is coming off the standard stuff PowerVision sells as a wideband kit. That was not my bike. I normally tune with the stock o2s.
Beast
OK, so those are really broad band sensors, not the more accurate wide band sensors. Home much do you think your measurements are skewed (or the tuning off) because of the potential for inaccuracy.... like how are you sure you are getting accurate enough measurements... are you just trusting the powervision marketing sheet?
I understand getting close enough for an effective tune... just wanted to get a handle around fooling ourselves with trying to tune finer than the measurement tolerance of the data we are using...
Looks like that chassis needs some work getting the car moving more forward than upward :).
If someone was to tell you that brand X wideband had +/- 4% accuracy and brand Y was 100 times as expensive and had 1% accuracy, what would you buy?
If you add to this the right answer was somewhere around 13 AFR +/- about 8% but you just have to see what that motor likes now would you pay the extra money?
Narrow bands are wicked fast and real accurate at finding 02 in the exhaust. The $400 dollar version widebands are fairly good at 12.5 or so and at least they are fairly consistent on a motor that is not changing load real quickly.
I guess there may be real expensive (lab grade) widebands but I don't get to play with that stuff. Keep in mind that you don't really know what the motor will want anyway.
In the racecars, once we have the VEs close, we play with the AFR targets watching the accelerometers for improvements. Same thing on the timing side of things.
Have fun tuning.
AW
Quote from: whittlebeast on September 14, 2011, 11:09:39 AM
Quote from: yositime on September 14, 2011, 05:31:32 AM
Quote from: whittlebeast on September 06, 2011, 04:00:15 AM
The data I was working with is coming off the standard stuff PowerVision sells as a wideband kit. That was not my bike. I normally tune with the stock o2s.
Beast
OK, so those are really broad band sensors, not the more accurate wide band sensors. Home much do you think your measurements are skewed (or the tuning off) because of the potential for inaccuracy.... like how are you sure you are getting accurate enough measurements... are you just trusting the powervision marketing sheet?
I understand getting close enough for an effective tune... just wanted to get a handle around fooling ourselves with trying to tune finer than the measurement tolerance of the data we are using...
Looks like that chassis needs some work getting the car moving more forward than upward :).
If someone was to tell you that brand X wideband had +/- 4% accuracy and brand Y was 100 times as expensive and had 1% accuracy, what would you buy?
If you add to this the right answer was somewhere around 13 AFR +/- about 8% but you just have to see what that motor likes now would you pay the extra money?
Narrow bands are wicked fast and real accurate at finding 02 in the exhaust. The $400 dollar version widebands are fairly good at 12.5 or so and at least they are fairly consistent on a motor that is not changing load real quickly.
I guess there may be real expensive (lab grade) widebands but I don't get to play with that stuff. Keep in mind that you don't really know what the motor will want anyway.
In the racecars, once we have the VEs close, we play with the AFR targets watching the accelerometers for improvements. Same thing on the timing side of things.
Have fun tuning.
AW
And you are the one here complaining about being accurate, why the sudden change of heart? 8% range at 13:1 means you could be at 11.96:1 as well! All this flies in the face of what you have been trying to lead people to believe with all your O2 reading/plotting posts!
Dude,
You need to lighten up, your screeching does not do your position any good. With all due respect.
Have been thinking of quoting a post you made to me about the data accuracy and % error point of view.
This is a good time to address it.
What I see is 5 tune adjustments, all positive about 3% and still not over the top. I cannot feel any more increases in performance but the sound of the pipes and the scatter plots of MegaLogViewer HD and Data Master O2 datalogging is saying it is very close. Almost time to lean out the rich spots for economy. All changes are also on paper so I can look back.
I listened to what you said and it kid of made sense but it did not jive with what I experienced.
Suggest you get to work on product improvements, Power Vision while not yet as good, sure is a heck of a lot easier to use.
Quote from: Steve Cole on September 14, 2011, 01:22:24 PM
And you are the one here complaining about being accurate, why the sudden change of heart? 8% range at 13:1 means you could be at 11.96:1 as well! All this flies in the face of what you have been trying to lead people to believe with all your O2 reading/plotting posts!
Jumping to conclusions again...
It is the accuracy of the code I have an issue with. I just wish you would fix the code so we could run the Sportys in closed loop.
AW
Here is what fairly well tuned Harley data log looks like running a duel channel wideband.
(http://www.ncs-stl.com/PVTune/WideBandTrace.jpg)
Didn't jump to any conclusions, just read your post and what you've said. One time it's got to be within 3% total to be any good now it's +/- 8% with broadbands. The truth is the engine moves around 5% all by itself without changing anything, and I've told you that several times, and it has nothing to do with code accuracy!
Sporty
The point here that you seem to be missing is the whittlebeast is making it up each time and it's going to be one way or the other, not both. As for my position in pointing it out is so that people do not get all wrapped around trying to reach the BS goals but reach for something that is real. As for quoting me please do, I would love to see it. Now for making your changes 3% at a time if what your using to measure with is 10% out how do you know where your at? Not saying what your using is 10% off but it makes my point of once you get it to with 5% call it a day. I have seen plenty of DJ broad band measurements be OFF by over 1 full AFR. So what it is reporting is useless and your not going to find that using MLV, DataMaster or anything other that an accurate system because all you are doing is plotting what is being reported. Right or wrong doesn't much matter when the sensor give false readings! Also one needs to remember that at best your only seeing 25% of the data and MISSING 75% of what is really going on.
Quote from: Steve Cole on September 14, 2011, 03:09:00 PM
Didn't jump to any conclusions, just read your post and what you've said. One time it's got to be within 3% total to be any good now it's +/- 8% with broadbands. The truth is the engine moves around 5% all by itself without changing anything, and I've told you that several times, and it has nothing to do with code accuracy!
Are you claiming +/- 5% for over a 1 AFR swing for no apparent reason?
Quote from: whittlebeast on September 14, 2011, 04:51:47 PM
Quote from: Steve Cole on September 14, 2011, 03:09:00 PM
Didn't jump to any conclusions, just read your post and what you've said. One time it's got to be within 3% total to be any good now it's +/- 8% with broadbands. The truth is the engine moves around 5% all by itself without changing anything, and I've told you that several times, and it has nothing to do with code accuracy!
Are you claiming +/- 5% for over a 1 AFR swing for no apparent reason?
Show me anywhere that I have ever posted or said the above. Stop making things up and just read what I typed.
keep it civil fellows.
Mayor,
Thanks for the note of caution.
These guys are cutting edge tuners.
Sharp edges sometimes cut.
Steve,
This was the one I was referring to. It is thoughtful and well composed. Many excellent points.
I think one can tune with out 75% of data if the 25% available is a true random selection of data.
Maybe less truly random data would work as well also.
Yes, Andy does love to ring your chimes. Restless tuning intellect, too bad he was not working at improving your product like he is the PV.
And methinks thou doth protest too much.
Re: TTS/BigBoysCycle/MegaLogViewer, 4th Tune Adjustment
« Reply #89 on: Sunday, August 28, 2011. 05:57:37 PM. »
Quote
Sporty
I hate to be a pain in the a$$ but if your going to learn you first need to understand how it all works. Nothing that I know of in this life is perfect and I doubt there will every be. Due to the changing conditions the results are going to vary and in the real world what we have seen over the years in both the automotive world and the HD world is the mixture will move around in about a 5% range, it never stays right at one spot. So what the system does is try to control it so it doesn't get out of the range one way or the other too far. The problem is as we modify parts of the system and not pay attention to what it does, things go wrong. The O2 sensor is what we are trying to base ALL the decisions from so you had better make sure it is installed and working correctly. That is not what has been going on with most of the aftermarket exhaust systems let alone a modified HD system. The system works great as long as you do not modify it but once you do you need to be aware of what needs to be done to keep it working correctly and at what point do you stop chasing your tail for small variations as they are always going to be there.
When your tuning an engine you are working with one little slice in time. Your tuning to what you see at that time and that's it. IF things change (which they will) you need to figure out why and solve for it. With poor O2 placement which is quite common in aftermarket HD systems many times your chasing a moving target. You need to first limit as much as possible that moving targets range or you cannot expect a system to work correctly again. You cannot expect to use equipment for measurements that has a big tolerance on it on, to hit a moving target and keep it at the exact same spot, it just not going to happen, and you should not expect it too. The data that we show is coming from the ECM we have nothing to do with it other than to show it to you. When we know the rate at it comes in we also know what's missing and that you have to be careful with. Just looking at one part of the issue without understanding what all your not seeing means you can and will draw wrong conclusions. Then mix that with people making up statements, to fit what they are wanting, many can really screw things up!
As I said before I would love to see it be spot on the money all the time but that's just not going to happen, but what can happen and should happen is to be able to hold the changes to a minimum over a long period of time. In order to do that you must make sure all parts of the system are working together.
Jeffd,
This is not a fight.
Dramatic positive change is coming to tuning.
Steve sees it, as does Andy, I am trying to understand.
Quote from: Jeffd on September 14, 2011, 06:38:39 PM
Steve, stop fighting with the guys that want to fight you and help the guys who really want/need the help.
Quote from: Sporty 48 on September 14, 2011, 06:43:50 PM
Jeffd,
This is not a fight.
Dramatic positive change is coming to tuning.
Steve sees it, as does Andy, I am trying to understand.
Quote from: Jeffd on September 14, 2011, 06:38:39 PM
Steve, stop fighting with the guys that want to fight you and help the guys who really want/need the help.
go back and read the posts. you have the same 2 or 3 guys telling Steve what his tool can do and he is telling them no it can't, you pretty much would think he would know as he was the one who designed it. hidden codes and broken codes yada yada.
Jeffd,
Looking for a closed loop tune that works for a Sportster.
You have a Sportster Jeffd? A closed loop tune on that Sporty?
Andy has a Sportster, I have a Sportster, guess what, we have open loop tunes.
This HTT site is the best place to get a TTS tuned Harley straight. Steve graciously helps us.
I am here to learn tuning on my Sportster, thank you for your thoughtful opinions.
So no where did I say anything different about the change that occurs with ALL HD engines. Due to the conditions they run in your are going to see the mixture move around ~5%. There is no Dramatic positive change coming as it's been this way for 20 + years just the HD guys do not know about it. The car world that has been doing EFI for a long time and is well aware of the drift/changing fuel mixture and guess what, the brand new automotive 2012 systems do it too. The code is not busted or broken it's just the nature of the beast and one has to know the limits of the parts involved to begin to understand it. Andy obviously from his own post does not understand it any better in the car world than he does here in the HD world. You are going to chase your tail forever as it's not going to settle down, they are designed to work this way!
Look, I really do not care what Andy does, as it's clear to me and has been for a long time that he really does not get out and do any tuning, he just plays behind a keyboard on the internet. What I do not want to see happen is guys like you not learning how and why it works as it does, buy into some of this BS. Yes, you can tune it in better and better but then go ride a day, week, month later and it going to be off again. Why do you think race teams keep notes for each and every track with all the conditions at that time there in a note book? It's so the next time there you can change to that setup in both the engine and the car as a good starting point to adjust from. Things are going to change and all you can do is adjust for them. In the car and motorcycle world there is a point at which you have to stop and say that's as good as it gets. You seem to not understand this and Andy constantly say the code is bust or it's only a Sportster deal is just BS. Just so that YOU understand the same code that runs in the Sportsters also runs in the Big Twins. So how is it bust in one and not in the other? IMHO the only thing that has come out of this entire thread is that you like to look at a 2d scatter plot and that's fine. If you look back and read I said we could add that in as it's already part of our standard graphics package, no big deal and not very hard to do.
As you said, you here to learn tuning so how about we stick to learning and understanding how and why things work as they do. Once you do that the rest of it will come along and sort itself out.
FWIW,
I think the scatter plots in MegaLogViewer are interesting, but I just found out that one has to be careful in interpreting them;
After a logging session with PV the LogTuner had all VE-suggestions between 0.98 and 1.02, with just 5 cells with 1.03, 1.04 and 1.05.
Graphing VE and VE New shows that they are inside +- 2% in more than 95% of the time logged.
Still, scatter-plotting VE against VE New is looking nothing like a straight line, so one might conclude the tune is not good.
The reason is that there is no way to see from the plot which dots are the 5% untypical data and which dots are the 95% with typical data
or the border between them, one dot in the plot can be one measurement or hundreds of measurements.
IMHO without a counter of hits on each dot, one might very well draw wrong conclusions from these kind of plots.
(My view in this debate is that MegaLogViewer can be quite useful in learning and understanding relationships between the variables
participating in the EFI system, which might indirectly help the learner in the tuning process.
I fail to see the usefulness as a direct tuning tool, however, TTS, SERT and PV seem to me to have that part covered pretty well.
Hpulven
Just turn on "Hits" as the third axis.
The VE vs VENew is just an indication of if things are getting better. There are better things to look at for tuning.
AW
I have done that, but not very helpful if I cannot change the color scale on the third axis.
Is there a way to do that?
(Then I could choose the color change to make a clear distinction between the 95 and 5% data.)
While we are at it, are there any ways to filter away data I don't want?
And, what are the better things to look at?
Thank you for your help! (I think I can use MLV for mathematical/statistical work not connected to motorcyles and cars :-) )
Yes, the color scale is adjustable.
See, I break it down to the simplest parts, mix & compress fuel & air, fire then exhaust, repeat.
Buy fuel at the same place when possible.
Data log on a hot dry day, the most demanding weather condition.
Because lean will toast pistons, first start fixing lean spots.
Slowly at first then increase rpm and acceleration.
If lean add more fuel, when no more lean spots show up, then start getting the rich spots out, SLOWLY.
When the O2 switching is random or in equilibrium, you are done.
Listen to the pipes, Listen to the engine, pay attention to engine heat, check fuel mileage.
Keep the VE tables changes are made on so I can see trends.
Concerned about fuel quality and altitude variations that is why closed loop is important to me.
Of course after a engine mod it starts over.
Timing? That sets when the spark fires.
Quote from: Sporty 48 on September 15, 2011, 05:52:36 AM
Yes, the color scale is adjustable.
How? Sorry if I have overlooked something, but I did not find this in the menues.
(Third axis color scheme in scatter plots.)
Quote from: hpulven on September 15, 2011, 06:15:38 AM
Quote from: Sporty 48 on September 15, 2011, 05:52:36 AM
Yes, the color scale is adjustable.
How? Sorry if I have overlooked something, but I did not find this in the menues.
(Third axis color scheme in scatter plots.)
At the top
<calculated fields>
<Fixed Field Min and Max>
<Add Fixed Field Min and Max>
When you set up a new one, the field name is case and space sensitive, so be careful typing.
If you are on the scatter graphs, there are sliders at the bottom. If you slide one of the after a range change, it will force a redraw of the two plots. Any data that exceeds your limits will show up as deep blue of bright red. These limits also apply to the line graphs.
Have fun tuning
Beast
Quote from: Sporty 48 on September 14, 2011, 07:37:29 PM
Jeffd,
Looking for a closed loop tune that works for a Sportster.
You have a Sportster Jeffd? A closed loop tune on that Sporty?
Andy has a Sportster, I have a Sportster, guess what, we have open loop tunes.
This HTT site is the best place to get a TTS tuned Harley straight. Steve graciously helps us.
I am here to learn tuning on my Sportster, thank you for your thoughtful opinions.
If you are truly here to learn tuning. I would suggest getting rid of the: "I am special because I ride a XL mentality" Leave the shots at bagger riders out, and learn how the HD Delphi system works. There are some real good guys here that understand how it works. Their info will help no matter what kind of bike they ride.
Quote from: Sporty 48 on September 15, 2011, 05:52:36 AM
Yes, the color scale is adjustable.
See, I break it down to the simplest parts, mix & compress fuel & air, fire then exhaust, repeat.
Buy fuel at the same place when possible.
Data log on a hot dry day, the most demanding weather condition.
Because lean will toast pistons, first start fixing lean spots.
Slowly at first then increase rpm and acceleration.
If lean add more fuel, when no more lean spots show up, then start getting the rich spots out, SLOWLY.
When the O2 switching is random or in equilibrium, you are done.
Listen to the pipes, Listen to the engine, pay attention to engine heat, check fuel mileage.
Keep the VE tables changes are made on so I can see trends.
Concerned about fuel quality and altitude variations that is why closed loop is important to me.
Of course after a engine mod it starts over.
Timing? That sets when the spark fires.
So how about you put some numbers to the broad statement that I highlighted above. Let's also get into length of time in these conditions to cause an issue. These are the basic things one must understand prior to starting trying to learn to tune.
This tuning stuff is for race bikes only. Read the popup warnings.
In racing you get the standard warranty. You get to keep all the parts that you can find at the end of what ever went wrong.
Hrdtail78,
Bless you, "I am special because I ride a XL." Had never thought of it that way. Thought I was just arrogant.
But you are right. I will also ease up on the other guys bike choices and be more sensitive, do not want any hurt feelings.
Even if it is funny.
Steve,
Sorry, I do not understand what you mean.
Got caught in the rain during this mornings ride, so very cold, took a hot shower, must take a nap now.
Wished I had had a Bagger.
You need to understand what LEAN is and how long must it be run Lean to do damage. Words are getting tossed around that confuse many people as we get the phone calls, so I am trying to get you to define things so that people can learn. So in your words what is lean and how long must it last to damage pistons?
Quote from: Steve Cole on September 15, 2011, 09:54:05 AM
You need to understand what LEAN
in truest definition, lean is any afr/lambda value higher than stoich. as for the rest, dunno....but I know I won't be volunteering my bike to find out. :teeth:
but we all know it can be much leaner the stochic especially for short periods of time. Not volunteering either lol
Holy Crap! If all this thread was a tuning session........wait, it is a tuning session....and for 1 bike! :hyst: :hyst: :hyst: :hyst:
Quote from: mayor on September 15, 2011, 10:30:30 AM
Quote from: Steve Cole on September 15, 2011, 09:54:05 AM
You need to understand what LEAN
in truest definition, lean is any afr/lambda value higher than stoich. as for the rest, dunno....but I know I won't be volunteering my bike to find out. :teeth:
We have a winner! Lean is any measurement beyond stoichometric. In Lambda that would be a value of > 1.00 and in AFR it's hard to say but in general it is >14.68 for today's fuel sold at the pump. Now, time at that point is a big deal as burning fuel at stoichometric will produce the maximum BTU's of heat energy per unit of fuel. So any mixture that is to the rich side of stoichometric (<1.00 lambda) is just that................ RICH not lean. How rich you run is based on how the engine can handle the heat produced in the combustion process so most of the time we are always running the engine in a HD too rich to help with cooling, not because it needs to be that way and not because that mixture is going to hurt the piston. With a water cooled engine you can control heat due to the better cooling system but not so in an air cooled HD engine. Now when we talk about a Lean burn engine as Honda built they ran the engine at ~ 17:1 (1.15 lambda) and it didn't burn pistons and they had sold them for several years that way and they worked great. What has killed the Lean burn engine is that it produces way too much Nox emissions but they got 50+ mpg and ran like a top with power output in the 1 - 1.1 HP per cubic inch range.
Now when working with the EFI calibrations let's start by defining things as to what they are, not what they are not. You have to not only control the mixture but also the heat produced in the combustion process to control the cooling in the engine. If your going to do it right you should be measuring EGT's and not exceed 1400 deg max. A those levels an HD air cooled motor can run for about 1 minute and that's it. Any longer and the cylinder will not longer cool the piston and ring package and damage is going to occur. So when you try and tell me you see the O2 sensor reading going lean and it going to hurt the engine let's start by seeing if it is even lean at all and then for how long because the switching sensor system is not going to hurt a damned thing when it switches properly from the rich side of things to the lean side of things and nothing is busted when it's doing it.
So would you guys run at 15.7 AFR up thru 80 KPA?
At the highest point my AFR is set to 14.2, 30-80 MAP, 750rpm up to 4500rpm, the rest of the AFR table is lower.
So I assume the VE's which vary between 70 and 110 in that range adjust the O2 voltage signal to switch to "lean" at 14.2.
Closed Loop Bias is set at 460, not sure if that does anything in open loop.
So, to answer your question, anything leaner than 14.2 on my tune is considered lean. Richer than stoich but not by a heck of a lot.
Best answer? Just woke up.
Quote from: whittlebeast on September 15, 2011, 11:16:27 AM
So would you guys run at 15.7 AFR up thru 80 KPA?
Absolutely not an issue in the proper conditions. If the system is switching in closed loop control and it hits this number for one engine cycle, hell even 3 engine cycles it not going to hurt anything. Now all day long at that point then it's not any good. If your picking out a few data points out of the less than 25% of the data you get to look at then your wasting time on it.
Quote from: Sporty 48 on September 15, 2011, 11:25:58 AM
At the highest point my AFR is set to 14.2, 30-80 MAP, 750rpm up to 4500rpm, the rest of the AFR table is lower.
So I assume the VE's which vary between 70 and 110 in that range adjust the O2 voltage signal to switch to "lean" at 14.2.
Closed Loop Bias is set at 460, not sure if that does anything in open loop.
So, to answer your question, anything leaner than 14.2 on my tune is considered lean. Richer than stoich but not by a heck of a lot.
Best answer? Just woke up.
So your bike is truely running RICH all the time and since your running in open loop there is no feedback control being used from the ECM. Calling it lean is a misuse of the term. The VE's do not adjust the O2 in any way shape or form. The O2 is simply reading the free oxygen in the exhaust and that is a result from the fuel calculation in the ecm and burn cycle, VE is only one small part of that. O2 can come from other sources as well. If you had all the data you would be able to pick out the odd data but since you do not have it you are not going to be able to do it. You would have to know when the O2 sensor is being read and when it is being reported out to the tool for it to be useful in believing it as a good source of information just using 25% of the raw data.
Let's give you an example that you may understand better. The mixture is burned and the exhaust valve gets opened and pushed out into the exhaust pipe as a pulse of exhaust. Once that pulse travels past the sensor the sensor gets read or would you want to read it just before the pulse travel past the sensor or read during the pulse? Remember there is an amount of time the sensor needs to change as well, so be careful in your answer. This is why it's more of a problem at low engine speeds as well. If the sensor is not getting a good flow across it all the time your in trouble and it's reading is going to be wrong. Also remember that before the exhaust valve gets closed the intake opens and then the flow in the exhaust reverses and starts heading back into the cylinder and into the intake manifold. This means what has alrady gone past the sensor may return and go past it again. Lots to look at and understand here.
Quote from: whittlebeast on September 15, 2011, 11:16:27 AM
So would you guys run at 15.7 AFR up thru 80 KPA?
I wouldn't intentionally, but I will say that I have seen that value on my afr meter in lower cruising loads on my lowrider (carb bike) with no ill affects.... :nix: I choose to address it though, since I'm personally not comfortable with running that lean on an air cooled engine.
But 80 KPA is nearly full torque.
AW
Doesn't matter. As long as the system is in closed loop it is designed to switch back and forth so you are going to see some points either side of the centering value. Now if it stayed over there all the time it would be a problem but a point every now and again could be lots of reasons why it's over there one of which very well could be a false reading. As I have explain a false reading can come from many various things.
Steve,
Thanks for your comments.
The O2 sensor is switching when it senses oxygen while operating in open loop. As I take it, no matter what the AFR setting is. So even if the AFR is set to 14.2, when the O2 sensor switches there is excess O2 or a lean condition.
We had one adjustment due to the single intake plenum. The rear cylinder was lean (multiple data points indicated O2 at the sensor) so for those cells the VE was increased 3%. The next couple of data runs indicated lean in the front cyl at the same corresponding area (again multiple data points of excess O2). Indicating that what is done has the desired effect.
I would love to have more data points but a trend is a trend and by incremental steps up to the goal of no excess O2, while optimizing the tune for the current state of conditions including the elusive inversion effects.
50 MPG and excess NO2's? Does it matter on my race bike? How do I get that? Just the way I am going? Any easier way?
Quote from: Steve Cole on September 15, 2011, 12:28:55 PM
Quote from: Sporty 48 on September 15, 2011, 11:25:58 AM
At the highest point my AFR is set to 14.2, 30-80 MAP, 750rpm up to 4500rpm, the rest of the AFR table is lower.
So I assume the VE's which vary between 70 and 110 in that range adjust the O2 voltage signal to switch to "lean" at 14.2.
Closed Loop Bias is set at 460, not sure if that does anything in open loop.
So, to answer your question, anything leaner than 14.2 on my tune is considered lean. Richer than stoich but not by a heck of a lot.......
So your bike is truely running RICH all the time and since your running in open loop there is no feedback control being used from the ECM. Calling it lean is a misuse of the term. The VE's do not adjust the O2 in any way shape or form. The O2 is simply reading the free oxygen in the exhaust and that is a result from the fuel calculation in the ecm and burn cycle, VE is only one small part of that. O2 can come from other sources as well. If you had all the data you would be able to pick out the odd data but since you do not have it you are not going to be able to do it. You would have to know when the O2 sensor is being read and when it is being reported out to the tool for it to be useful in believing it as a good source of information just using 25% of the raw data.
Let's give you an example that you may understand better. The mixture is burned and the exhaust valve gets opened and pushed out into the exhaust pipe as a pulse of exhaust. Once that pulse travels past the sensor the sensor gets read or would you want to read it just before the pulse travel past the sensor or read during the pulse? Remember there is an amount of time the sensor needs to change as well, so be careful in your answer. This is why it's more of a problem at low engine speeds as well. If the sensor is not getting a good flow across it all the time your in trouble and it's reading is going to be wrong. Also remember that before the exhaust valve gets closed the intake opens and then the flow in the exhaust reverses and starts heading back into the cylinder and into the intake manifold. This means what has alrady gone past the sensor may return and go past it again. Lots to look at and understand here.
Quote from: Sporty 48 on September 16, 2011, 07:14:58 AM
Steve,
Thanks for your comments.
The O2 sensor is switching when it senses oxygen while operating in open loop. As I take it, no matter what the AFR setting is. So even if the AFR is set to 14.2, when the O2 sensor switches there is excess O2 or a lean condition.
We had one adjustment due to the single intake plenum. The rear cylinder was lean (multiple data points indicated O2 at the sensor) so for those cells the VE was increased 3%. The next couple of data runs indicated lean in the front cyl at the same corresponding area (again multiple data points of excess O2). Indicating that what is done has the desired effect.
I would love to have more data points but a trend is a trend and by incremental steps up to the goal of no excess O2, while optimizing the tune for the current state of conditions including the elusive inversion effects.
50 MPG and excess NO2's? Does it matter on my race bike? How do I get that? Just the way I am going? Any easier way?
The O2 sensor is NOT going to switch in open loop as there is nothing telling it to do so, you've turn that whole circuit off. Yes, there is fuel sharing that goes on in the intake as it's just way to short and the injectors are to close together, something that just has to be lived with on a HD engine. There is also exhaust sharing that goes on in most exhaust systems, that's one of the reasons it is so important to know when to use the data and when not too. If you have limited data, which you do, and you have no way to know when/what to get rid of the bad/inaccurate data your playing with fire. I do not know what your talking about when you say NO2's
My tune is open loop. No AFR's are set to 14.6.
I use the Data Master and O2 sensors to gather my data to analyze with the MegaLogViewer-HD.
Maybe it is 50mpg and NOX.
Quote from: Steve Cole on September 16, 2011, 08:54:37 AM
The O2 sensor is NOT going to switch in open loop as there is nothing telling it to do so, you've turn that whole circuit off. Yes, there is fuel sharing that goes on in the intake as it's just way to short and the injectors are to close together, something that just has to be lived with on a HD engine. There is also exhaust sharing that goes on in most exhaust systems, that's one of the reasons it is so important to know when to use the data and when not too. If you have limited data, which you do, and you have no way to know when/what to get rid of the bad/inaccurate data your playing with fire. I do not know what your talking about when you say NO2's
Sorry, still do not understand what your asking.
Quote from: Sporty 48 on September 16, 2011, 07:14:58 AM
The O2 sensor is switching when it senses oxygen while operating in open loop. As I take it, no matter what the AFR setting is. So even if the AFR is set to 14.2, when the O2 sensor switches there is excess O2 or a lean condition.
If you have a steady-state O2 [and pressure] difference between both sides of the sufficiently-heated sensor you'll have a steady-state DC voltage being produced. But that isn't really how the sensors are being used. In a paper discussing methodology to determine individual cylinder contribution when multiple cylinders are feeding exhaust to a single sensor of the type we're using, we can read:
"The EGO sensor used in this system incorporates a ZrO2 ceramic thimble employing a platinum catalyst on the exterior surface to equilibrate the exhaust gas mixture. The interior surface of the sensor is exposed to atmosphere [through the leads]. Because output voltage is exponentially related to the ratio of 02 partial pressures across the ceramic, the sensor is essentially a switching device indicating by its state (practically, 0 or 1 V) whether the exhaust gas is rich or lean of stoichiometry. The sensor response time to a step change in A/F is typically less than 300 ms. As shown in the block diagram of Fig. 2, this signal is fed back through a comparitor and digital PI controller to adjust the fuel injector pulsewidths so as to achieve an average A/F close to stoichiometry, and therefore within the high efficiency “window†of the TWC.
It should be noted that although the average A/F is controlled to perceived stoichiometry, individual cylinders may be operating consistantly rich or lean of the desired value."
[ http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.152.878&rep=rep1&type=pdf (http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.152.878&rep=rep1&type=pdf) ]
Now we don't have that last problem on our engines, but we do have the averages of rich/lean, and that centerpoint is controlled by the CLBs when that type of calibration is used.
As Steve said, if you're not running closed-loop, there won't be the deliberately-wavering injector signals which would serve to
cause the sensors to "switch".
Glens,
Thanks, something to chew on.
TWC refers to a three way catalytic converter, we do not have those do we?
"As Steve said, if you're not running closed-loop, there won't be the deliberately-wavering injector signals which would serve to cause the sensors to "switch"," Glens.
Ok, was just trying to find out if the CLB setting affects the O2 sensor's switching while operating in open loop.
You see, I use the O2 sensors to track rich/lean while data logging. My tune is open loop (not set to 14.6 AFR).
My motor is now bumping off the 6250 rev limiter and starting to ooze oil out the breather, while I know that is not an objective measurement, revving faster than I can shift is an indicator to me the tune is getting the lean VE cells out.
Also note, fewer lean spots on the MLV-HD data plotting graph (blue dots) too.
Sure would be nice to run the 4 or 5 gas analyzer over my tune to see if I am just jerking around or not.
Steve are you implying that the o2 data is invalid from a datamaster recording is the afr is set below 14.6. As Sporty is using the output of the o2s to know if his tune is staying to the rich side of the o2s calibration nothing more. It is understood that the ecm can not force the switching if that portion is turned off, but the o2s are still sending data showing if there is no o2 present or if there is is that not. is that correct ?
Quote from: Sporty 48 on September 16, 2011, 05:02:38 PM
My motor is now bumping off the 6250 rev limiter and starting to ooze oil out the breather
why so low of rev limit? you still running stock cams?
Quote from: cts1950 on September 16, 2011, 05:57:49 PM
Steve are you implying that the o2 data is invalid from a datamaster recording is the afr is set below 14.6. As Sporty is using the output of the o2s to know if his tune is staying to the rich side of the o2s calibration nothing more. It is understood that the ecm can not force the switching if that portion is turned off, but the o2s are still sending data showing if there is no o2 present or if there is is that not. is that correct ?
Sorry but I do not think I have implied anything. What is happening is the ECM has to make it's mind up what is usable data and what is not in normal operation. DataMaster does nothing other than show what the ECM is seeing BUT what you do not get is anything to tell you what is usable data and what is not as you have turned OFF all the circuitry when going open loop. So you cannot tell the difference in what maybe useable data and what is not usable data. Since the ECM has the code shut off who knows as the code that does the testing has all been shut down by going open loop.
Mayor,
Yes, stock cams, have not gone inside yet, at 5,000 miles.
Thinking .497, Andrews N4's, the next step.
I like the size stability of Harley pistons and 10.0:1, will probably stay at 6250rpms and have a tune to burn regular.. the future is looking bright.
Quote from: mayor on September 16, 2011, 06:14:18 PM
Quote from: Sporty 48 on September 16, 2011, 05:02:38 PM
My motor is now bumping off the 6250 rev limiter and starting to ooze oil out the breather
why so low of rev limit? you still running stock cams?
Steve,
By turning off all that closed loop circuitry my O2 data stream is as pure as the driven snow.
The front tire is hardly on the ground except for braking, damned Sportster feels like a unicycle.
TTS Mastertuned by the best, the Boys of HTT.
Quote from: Steve Cole on September 16, 2011, 06:47:31 PM
Quote from: cts1950 on September 16, 2011, 05:57:49 PM
Steve are you implying that the o2 data is invalid from a datamaster recording is the afr is set below 14.6. As Sporty is using the output of the o2s to know if his tune is staying to the rich side of the o2s calibration nothing more. It is understood that the ecm can not force the switching if that portion is turned off, but the o2s are still sending data showing if there is no o2 present or if there is is that not. is that correct ?
Sorry but I do not think I have implied anything. What is happening is the ECM has to make it's mind up what is usable data and what is not in normal operation. DataMaster does nothing other than show what the ECM is seeing BUT what you do not get is anything to tell you what is usable data and what is not as you have turned OFF all the circuitry when going open loop. So you cannot tell the difference in what maybe useable data and what is not usable data. Since the ECM has the code shut off who knows as the code that does the testing has all been shut down by going open loop.
So let me understand what you are saying. If datamaster is reporting 850mv we can not say that is a rich reading as compaired to a 150mv reading that is lean. Is the data stream corrupt if the afr is set below 14.6. It is my understanding that if the ecm is set in open loop we are not asking it to make up it's mind at all what is usable and what is not. Dose it not just report what the sensors are reading.
Last night I was working on a PowerVision wideband data stream. I developed a filter to help the tuner locate the spots in the map that the motor is consistently missing the AFR targets.
see http://www.ncs-stl.com/PVTune/WideBandTuning.jpg (http://www.ncs-stl.com/PVTune/WideBandTuning.jpg)
On the left is the AFR as being reported from the wideband o2s. On the right is the places that the reported AFR is missing the target AFR by more that .3 AFR. Red, in this case, is where the VEs are lean and blue is where the VEs are rich. Yellow is where the VEs are close. A random dot here or there is ignorable. You are simply looking for patterns.
The settings file that does all of this is available for free download. The underlying software is free till some time in October. The data and resulting tune is priceless. My wideband should be here by next weekend.
Way cool stuff. At this point PowerVision is pulling way ahead as my only choice.
Have fun tuning
Beast
Ooooh, wideband for WFO tuning, then put back in the narrow bands for variations of fuel, weather and altitude????
A menu for different tunes too?
Still, is the onboard memory is a little skimpy yet?
Choices, choices...
Maybe I did exaggerate a little about all that power, still, if there was a little more power available with a little more fine tuning....
I guess you guys are not understanding what I am trying to explain to you. First things first, ANY reported data is from the ECM and DataMaster has nothing to do with it. All that happens is that what is sent by the ECM gets recorded and stored by DataMaster onto your PC. So now I hope you can understand that. So what's in question is the raw data that has been sent out by the ECM. By shutting OFF the closed loop system the ECM does not care anything about what is going on with the O2 sensors as it knows not to worry about it, it's turned off. The ECM would normally process the O2 sensor and know when to use the information and when not to use the information but with the closed loop turned off you have shut down that part of the process. How accurate or inaccurate the data is at that point is anyone's best guess.
There are consequences to going in and turning things off and that goes well beyond normal tuning. If you want to play with it that's all fine and good but do not expect the data to be good when doing it. So when you look at raw data and have no idea what is good data and what is bad data, how to make a decision from it is anyone's best guess. You would need to use an external system that is accurate enough to look at. So if you use an external system and it's accuracy is +/- 8% then all you can say is that the data is somewhere within that +/-8% range as you have no way to know where it really is. This is just why I have trouble with some of the claims made around here.
So let's think for a moment of what goes on in the process and what can go wrong. Are we looking for an average of the data or an absolute? Does it really matter?
".... the right answer was somewhere around 13 AFR +/- about 8% but you just have to see what that motor likes" So Andy cannot BS and say I'm jumping to conclusions this is his post in this very thread stating the +/- 8%.
Quote from: whittlebeast on September 17, 2011, 04:59:17 AM
Last night I was working on a PowerVision wideband data stream. I developed a filter to help the tuner locate the spots in the map that the motor is consistently missing the AFR targets.
see http://www.ncs-stl.com/PVTune/WideBandTuning.jpg (http://www.ncs-stl.com/PVTune/WideBandTuning.jpg)
On the left is the AFR as being reported from the wideband o2s. On the right is the places that the reported AFR is missing the target AFR by more that .3 AFR. Red, in this case, is where the VEs are lean and blue is where the VEs are rich. Yellow is where the VEs are close. A random dot here or there is ignorable. You are simply looking for patterns.
The settings file that does all of this is available for free download. The underlying software is free till some time in October. The data and resulting tune is priceless. My wideband should be here by next weekend.
Way cool stuff. At this point PowerVision is pulling way ahead as my only choice.
Have fun tuning
Beast
Andy's latest claim is a perfect example of data being used improperly.
"On the left is the AFR as being reported from the wideband o2s."This would lead someone to believe that the data is accurate as he left out the part that he already know the system is +/-8% that he is using. So let's use just some basic math to see the range at one mixture point.
14.6-8%= 13.42 AFR
14.6+8%= 15.768 AFR
So all he can tell to start with is that the numbers are somewhere in between those limits when the mixture was called out as 14.6. Since he has failed to include what was being asked for you have no way to really know what the mixture is supposed to be. Now let's continue with the data he is trying to present.
On the right is the places that the reported AFR is missing the target AFR by more that .3 AFR. Red, in this case, is where the VEs are lean and blue is where the VEs are rich. Yellow is where the VEs are close.Since the system in not capable of measuring this what are you really looking at? How did he dream up the statement?
"Red= VE lean"............ Lean from what? Since we do not have the necessary information to see what was being called for at any given time how can one know? Since we know the accuracy of the system is way worse than .3 AFR it will be impossible to ever know. One thing we can assume is that by stating its lean the mixture was leaner than what was called for but again that is just and assumption because the accuracy or the system means you could very well have a wrong reading and that it is really richer than the target.
"blue is where the VEs are rich" No different than the above problem with his lean statement.
"Yellow is where the VEs are close" Wait a minute here, how the hell can anything be close when you just stated the filter you developed is only reporting data that is off by greater than .3 AFR! Then you've gone on to say the color statments which would give you only things that are off by greater than .3AFR. What the hell is close since everything on the chart is suppose to be off by greater than .3 AFR.
So what does all this teach you guys?
You need to first do the basic work, use equipment that will measure what you claim and then be careful with the data, I hope. It's clear that Andy is not doing any of these things.
Look there are many different ways to tune a bike and the way I do it is not the only way but at least understand what you are doing and why you are doing it and learn that it does matter if you do not use proper equipment and it does matter when you make statements that cannot be supported with what your doing. I think many of you are here to learn and others are just here to :potstir: The end result is what matters and I hope you can learn to do it right and understand why things are the way they are.
Sporty, bear in mind that those "widebands" are exactly the same underlying type of sensor as our stock units. Those "widebands" each have their own closed-loop controller which causes them to switch by variably pumping O2 toward or away from the backside of the sensing element. This (no moving parts) "air pump" is part of the sensor itself and is controlled by electrical signalling from its own closed-loop controller.
Wherever you are (within range) from stoich in the pipe, the "wideband" controller determines that value by appropriately pumping O2 such that the sensing element itself switches across stoich, and the controller then outputs its signal based upon what it had to do with the O2 pumping to achieve that. (This has to be why the response time of these sensors is increased compared to our simpler units: the extra latency involved in the process of causing the element to switch and then reporting the results.) "Calibrating" the sensor/controller with free air (not in the pipe, and usually not indoors) allows you do get the sub-system pretty close, but this is really at a far end of the operating range and doesn't tell you much about where the controller's "CLBs" (as such) are where you really want to use the sensor. To get a better idea about that, you'll need to make use of laboratory-grade bottled gas.
Listen, I understand what you guys are doing and agree within limits that it could be a viable process. But we don't know when the data is acquired, do we? Is the current "820 mV" point in the graph actually pertinent to the rest of the data in that time-slice? Maybe the "grab an O2 reading" instruction came up in the queue and was executed at some non-precise time since you're not running closed-loop (there) when gathering the data. Even if you were running closed-loop at the time, is the data-point an indication of what the ECM itself used for its calculation then, or is it perhaps merely representative of when the gathering instruction showed up in the queue? Ultimately, the ECM's primary duty is controlling the running aspects of the engine. If there's any contention between that and sending some data out the bus at any point in time, I can practically guarantee you that the outward-bound data stream will take a back seat.
When you're all done tweaking this way, if you can't put it back into closed-loop operation and have that be stable, then you're just masking other problems which required attention beforehand anyway; and you'd also proven to be unsuccessful in your efforts if you had to leave the whole thing in open-loop when finished.
Quote from: glens on September 17, 2011, 11:23:53 AM
When you're all done tweaking this way, if you can't put it back into closed-loop operation and have that be stable, then you're just masking other problems which required attention beforehand anyway; and you'd also proven to be unsuccessful in your efforts if you had to leave the whole thing in open-loop when finished.
Now, this statement I believe to be 100% true.
If the VEs are not dialed in correctly, then the AFVs will screw with the tune. Also, of bigger importance is the O2s. If the O2s are in the pipe in a correct manner, then just maybe you are collecting good data. But, that mental mumbo jumbo is just that... how MUCH could you possibly improve on a Bean tune? I mean where it is noticeably better by SOP? C'mon. You simply HAVE to see some of this is in your head... just like it is in all of our heads when we do improvements. OK... if you try to close loop this 'tweaked' tune and it stays stable... good for ya!!! No kidding!!! But this closed loop experiment is also a test for you. If you try to close loop this tune, and it does NOT stay stable? What does that tell you? It will tell you a few things.
If it won't stay stable... chances are the O2 placement in those Bobcats are not acceptable. Once you feel that may be the case, then all the data you have collected and converted to MLV viewing, is also suspect. See what I mean?
What would be a good test for you now, is to SAVE THE TUNE you are running right now. Then prepare to v-tune the bike, starting with a fresh base cal. Use the same base cal that Bean started with. Tune the crap out of it, make sure your idle and low rpm stuff is set and tuned right, then go for it. Read the Mayor threads... all of them, and REALLY learn how to v-tune a bike.
Compare the two using SOP and maybe even a dyno.
You will want to start fresh, because of how Bean adjusts his 5 gas tunes, he uses both AFR and VE to keep the headroom. Now that YOU wish closed loop.... you must start fresh and tune totally using the VEs.
Here is what it looks like as a 2d wideband trace.
http://www.ncs-stl.com/PVTune/WideBandTrace.jpg (http://www.ncs-stl.com/PVTune/WideBandTrace.jpg)
At the bottom you see in green and yellow what I was using as an acceptable limit for AFR. Red and white is what the O2s were reporting.
"The ECM would normally process the O2 sensor and know when to use the information and when not to use the information but with the closed loop turned off you have shut down that part of the process. How accurate or inaccurate the data is at that point is anyone's best guess."
Is there documentation from Delphi on this process. As you say it is anyone's best guess. Its difficult to prove one way or another. I would guess if datamaster showed ve and ve new for each of the cylinders one could verify a open loop tune by putting the bike back into closed loop and look for changes in what the ecm is calling for to trim the tune.
What fun!!!
It has taken me all season starting with the dyno tune to make (EDIT BAD MATH) 4 positive VE adjustments.
The bike is nothing like the pig it started out as.
The temperature will be below freezing here tonight, not ideal data logging weather.
Just got back from a ride. Cool heaven on a Sportster.
Andy said it was a whole lot harder to get the head around wideband logic. Working on it.
At any rate, it sure is great to learn with you guys.
Thanks.
Wideband tuning is very similar to open loop narrow band tuning. The only difference is that you can chase a moving AFR target. If you get picky, you have to put time delays in the o2 traces but that may take a new thread. The data rate on these Harley's is so slow, we may be able to ignore that anyway. Time will tell.
Beast
I'd think you'd rather time-shift the O2 traces forward, not delay them, since there's the extra latency within the broadband sensor systems themselves, Andy.
It's funny how you seem to totally ignore ongoing discussion and just pop back into a thread with more new stuff. I'd think we all would rather see you first defend what you'd previously injected and spurred discussion over before you simply throw additional fuel on the fire.
Have you researched in what manner the (our) Delphi ECM treats the data it gathers and sends out the bus? Is each packet a discrete package of data that's entirely pertinent to itself at a given moment in time? Does it represent a specific timeslice of information which the ECM has already processed, or is it an incomplete snapshot of what the ECM will process? Is the data even for sure all from the same point in time or is it maybe gathered over a period of, say, half a crank rotation, with various aspects from different times?
I'd feel totally safe in saying the datastream offers us a good indication that things are working properly, but I don't know enough about it to suggest it's entirely usable as a basis for a tuning scheme.
And what about all the spurious data in the .dm3 file, which MLV dutifully portrays? I mean, in a log file I have open at the moment I can see the crosshair sitting on O2 Front at 0.260, O2 Rear at 1.060, while Front AFR shows 11.2 and Rear AFR shows 12.1. How can that possibly be? Not only are the voltages incorrect for those "AFRs", but the relationship is entirely reversed!
How can I possibly know the VE and VE New values represented are indicative of the same point in time? Likewise, the injector values?
If I dick with the calibration based on this data and it doesn't go into a tailspin am an really anything more than just lucky?
"And what about all the spurious data in the .dm3 file, which MLV dutifully portrays? I mean, in a log file I have open at the moment I can see the crosshair sitting on O2 Front at 0.260, O2 Rear at 1.060, while Front AFR shows 11.2 and Rear AFR shows 12.1. How can that possibly be? Not only are the voltages incorrect for those "AFRs", but the relationship is entirely reversed!
How can I possibly know the VE and VE New values represented are indicative of the same point in time? Likewise, the injector values?"
Steve talks about filtering the data. That implies that spurious data is sent from the ecu data stream. If MLV dose not have filters installed it is up to the human to recognise the incorrect data and ignore it. You can by narrowing the amount of info it is displaying to locate at what point the spurious data is coming from in the log file and see what the circumstances which caused the upside down data. A hard down shift raises hell with a smooth log file but can be ea sly found by looking at more than 4 traces at one time that you are locked into with datamaster. As you pointed out the data is in a DM3 file so datamaster would show the same results on it's display but would be harder to find. You can not know VE and VE New because VE new has been filtered out of the datamaster DM3 file some time ago unless you have managed to retain a early version of datamaster.
It's not the mere presence of the data itself that I call into question, it's that by it we're shown that at least some of the data doesn't match other points within the same time-slice. How clairvoyant does one need to become to be able to interpret everything when this is the case? In the example I gave above, there were no great transitions taking place. The TPS was at 4% for the third frame already (followed by four more), up from 3.6 the two previous frames, up from 3.1 for four frames, up from 2.7 for thirteen frames.
If the communication from the ECM had the overhead that our TCP/IP stuff (what we're using to communicate on this forum) does, whereby packets of data which come in wrong-ordered can be re-assembled in proper sequence before they're used, we might be a fair bit closer to being able to rely on it for what you're wanting to do. Even so, we don't know how well-matched-up the data is before it even initially comes out on the wire. Maybe a pack of tarot cards needs to get included in the process under discussion? :)
Glens,
Great points.
Time to point out we take a lot on faith with the TTS as well.
Quote from: Sporty 48 on September 18, 2011, 05:16:10 PM
Glens,
Great points.
Time to point out we take a lot on faith with the TTS as well.
good data in good data out right?
Quote from: cts1950 on September 18, 2011, 09:03:13 AM
Steve talks about filtering the data. That implies that spurious data is sent from the ecu data stream. If MLV dose not have filters installed it is up to the human to recognise the incorrect data and ignore it. You can by narrowing the amount of info it is displaying to locate at what point the spurious data is coming from in the log file and see what the circumstances which caused the upside down data. A hard down shift raises hell with a smooth log file but can be ea sly found by looking at more than 4 traces at one time that you are locked into with datamaster. As you pointed out the data is in a DM3 file so datamaster would show the same results on it's display but would be harder to find. You can not know VE and VE New because VE new has been filtered out of the datamaster DM3 file some time ago unless you have managed to retain a early version of datamaster.
DataMaster allows you to see 6 items on the display not 4 and has for some time. This debate is now coming full circle back to where it started years ago when you talk about VE new being taken out of DataMaster. It was this very problem of people who do not understand the data trying to use it for something they should NOT use it for that we removed it. Try dealing with the phone calls because they read it on a forum, so it has to be so. The data is transmitted in packets and NO they are not all from the same time slice, they are collected and sent out in serial fashion one at a time. So unless you know how to deal with it and rebuild it, your screwed. With the transmission rate as slow as it is you can only get about 25% of what is going on with the engine sent out from the ECM, at idle. At 6000 RPM your down to about 5%. So at idle you collect the packets then have to place them into a frame of data to be displayed and depending on what you ask for you can get about 4-5 frames of data, If you know and understand how to build the packets back into the proper fashion. You will see some data that you can know is wrong just by looking at it but there more that's not near that easy to pick out. A simple filter will not do the job correctly.
It just isn't as easy as a few people on here would want it to be, but that's whats there and there is nothing you can do about it unless you step up to external equipment that runs much faster and is much more accurate than what is currently being used in the aftermarket. It took us a long time to get things so that they worked properly and lots of testing with external equipment that was far more accurate than what is being played with in this thread.
You got me.
I have not bothered to use datamaste since ver 160. You have added two extra traces but the same old tired user interface as the old SERT released in the early 2000s. It was cutting edge when introduced but don't You think it is time for a face lift. Just try to look at a data file of 30,000 hits. You can not easily scroll through that much data like MLV allows, datamaster requires repeatedly opening windows to zoom in and then have to restore the whole graph to open a new zoom box in another location it takes hours to look at a file that size with any detail I am sorry it is too time consuming to deal with. MLV is superior in presentation and ease of use hands down that is why I have given up on using datamaster to look at log files.
I simply have not seen any evidence the the data stream is unreliable. Sure the there may be a questionable data point here or there but those are quite simple to simply ignore.
Beast
Quote from: cts1950 on September 18, 2011, 10:06:08 PM
You got me.
I have not bothered to use datamaste since ver 160. You have added two extra traces but the same old tired user interface as the old SERT released in the early 2000s. It was cutting edge when introduced but don't You think it is time for a face lift. Just try to look at a data file of 30,000 hits. You can not easily scroll through that much data like MLV allows, datamaster requires repeatedly opening windows to zoom in and then have to restore the whole graph to open a new zoom box in another location it takes hours to look at a file that size with any detail I am sorry it is too time consuming to deal with. MLV is superior in presentation and ease of use hands down that is why I have given up on using datamaster to look at log files.
A new face lift with fancy stuff isn't going to help me look at data. How it is set up know is great. In GenericO2Data I can can watch everything. Not only the 6 points I am graphing but a lot more data up top. I can click one Rec# at a time. Which is usually 5-6 times a second. which is about 1700 rec. for 5 minutes. Sometimes 6 line graphs are too much. A lot of the time I will only use 2. Like O2 sensor front and rear. I don't need a line graph for RPM's. At any rec# I can look up and see what my RPM's was. At this same time I can compare my RPM to MAP, Temp, IAT, vehicle speed, VE, spark, BPW....... To me it is like taking 1700 snap shots and looking at them in order with time and putting the run back together. The 3D graphs seem to stack the 1700 snap shots and project them all at once on a screen.
Quote from: whittlebeast on September 19, 2011, 03:33:49 AM
I simply have not seen any evidence the the data stream is unreliable. Sure the there may be a questionable data point here or there but those are quite simple to simply ignore.
Beast
How about a few simple questions answered.
So how about telling us all how you came to this conclusion?
What external test equipment you have used on a HD motorcycle ONLY that you were able to verify this with?
What are the specifications for the test equipment used in this testing?
cts1950
By all means go right ahead and use whatever makes you happy but just understand a different viewer does not solve any of the previously brought up items. You still have to understand what data can be used and at what time that data is good. Just any old viewer cannot do that for you.
Has anyone seen evidence that the data packets are busted to the point that it would make any real difference. Keep in mind that we are looking at 30000 records and a 1/10 of a sec bust on a small percentage of packets would never even be noticeable. Personally, I have been impressed how consistent they were.
Some of the stuff I look at has RPM accel rates of 33000 RPM per sec. That stuff gets real messy. Harley's tend to be in the 1500 range on the high side. Most data we are looking has accel rates way slower than even that. For the most part, I ignore the dynamic stuff till the end of the tuning process, if I do at all. And most of that is only done on accelerometers.
AW
Steve
If I understand you datamaster will record a dm3 file as raw data with the packets all out of order and screwed up. So if I
use datamaster to view the the log file it will correct the messed up data packets? And if I then use datamaster to export the corrected file I just looked at to a new csv file that file will have the original messed up data?
QuoteYou have to not only control the mixture but also the heat produced in the combustion process to control the cooling in the engine. If your going to do it right you should be measuring EGT's and not exceed 1400 deg max. A those levels an HD air cooled motor can run for about 1 minute and that's it. Any longer and the cylinder will not longer cool the piston and ring package and damage is going to occur.
absolutely :up:
just getting caught up on this thread. I know it has switched topics a few times, but that was a statement that needs to be remembered.
That is all great advice but is simply not within reach of most people tuning their bike at home.
The Mustang I tune has 8 EGTs and will soon have the ability to log 8 widebands leaning on 8 VE tables. That is all way above the pay scale of most people just trying to get their Harley to drive. All logging in that world is at 100 records per sec. Right now the big problem I am fighting is too much power.
see http://www.1320video.com/mid-7-second-passes-the-first-ever-wreck-wheelies-and-more/ (http://www.1320video.com/mid-7-second-passes-the-first-ever-wreck-wheelies-and-more/) at about 1:45 in the video.
Beast
Quote from: cts1950 on September 19, 2011, 07:21:47 PM
Steve
If I understand you datamaster will record a dm3 file as raw data with the packets all out of order and screwed up. So if I
use datamaster to view the the log file it will correct the messed up data packets? And if I then use datamaster to export the corrected file I just looked at to a new csv file that file will have the original messed up data?
Since YOU turned off the closed loop system the O2 data coming from the ECM is where the issue comes from, stop trying so hard to twist this into something it is not.
"Can't we all just get along?" said Rodney King.
Just looking for the lots of real data,
And an easy way to look at it so as to make a tuning decision, what is so difficult about that???
You could probably squeak by fairly well if you held steady-state for a few seconds at each spot. Then it wouldn't much matter which reading went with which cycle; they should all be about the same that way, so obvious outliers could be fairly ignorable.
I forget. Why is it that you say the sportsters have to be run open-loop to run right?
Quote from: glens on September 20, 2011, 02:18:54 PM
You could probably squeak by fairly well if you held steady-state for a few seconds at each spot. Then it wouldn't much matter which reading went with which cycle; they should all be about the same that way, so obvious outliers could be fairly ignorable.
I forget. Why is it that you say the sportsters have to be run open-loop to run right?
(http://www.ncs-stl.com/PVTune/SportyClosedLoop.jpg)
Look at the INJ PW F and INJ PW R
Back those numbers into how much the fueling would change... look at the bottom trace FuelingChange
What are you using for your "Fueling Change" formula? What are the values indicative of, %?
After you explain that, please explain what it is you'd rather see, and why what it is you're showing there is "wrong". Okay?
[ edit: Looks like some fake "granularity" has been imposed on those charts. How does that come about? Also attached image of MLV showing a TTS .dm3 file. What would you say is wrong about it? ]
[attachment removed after 60 days by system]
The formula as used by MLV is
100*(([Injector BPW Front-3]-1)/([Injector BPW Front]-1)-1)
where
Injector BPW Front-3 gives the Injector BPW Front three records back
the first -1 and second -1 backs out the injector dead time. So it may be closer to .75 ..... no big deal.
the 100 and the last -1 gets me to percentage.
In your example, the scale for pulse width needs to be from what ever you use as the ms dead time as a minimum. The max scale needs to be say 5 ms for the injector pulse width to get things to be in scale.
AW
Glens,
I started reading a thread by another manufacturer that participates on this site. They do not offer tunes for Sportsters.
Seemed like the same old stuff I see here and from a third manufacturer on another site.
It is all about going round and round and coming back to the same thing.
When my new Sportster came home it ran like poo. Pre-ordered a Power Vision but Andy talked me into TTS. Tried VTuning several times but it did not seem to improve the tune so I had a open loop dyno tune. The tuner, Bean said there was room for improvement, and it has improved with 4 minor tune adjustments, still need to lean it out a bit but it is too cold to change the tune now.
Data log with the generic O2 data selection of Datamaster and view the resulting scatterplot with MegaLogViewer-HD.
Ok, enough background, the reason I do not use closed loop is I do not understand it well enough and have enough uncertainty about the operation to not trust it.. Furthermore, I detect enough salesmanship and hear conflicting explanations of the same thing in different contexts when reading..
Additionally, some people I trust have confirmed some of my reservations.
That said still looking to try an open tune after I get this rather superb tune leaned out, polished so to speak and I ride as much as I can.
Quote from: glens on September 20, 2011, 02:18:54 PM
You could probably squeak by fairly well if you held steady-state for a few seconds at each spot. Then it wouldn't much matter which reading went with which cycle; they should all be about the same that way, so obvious outliers could be fairly ignorable.
I forget. Why is it that you say the sportsters have to be run open-loop to run right?
Quote from: whittlebeast on September 20, 2011, 03:48:06 PM
The formula as used by MLV is
100*(([Injector BPW Front-3]-1)/([Injector BPW Front]-1)-1)
where
Injector BPW Front-3 gives the Injector BPW Front three records back
the first -1 and second -1 backs out the injector dead time. So it may be closer to .75 ..... no big deal.
the 100 and the last -1 gets me to percentage.
In your example, the scale for pulse width needs to be from what ever you use as the ms dead time as a minimum. The max scale needs to be say 5 ms for the injector pulse width to get things to be in scale.
AW
So how did you dream this up? If I understand it correctly you are looking 3 records back to get your first BPW reading, then your trying to back out another BPW from further down the line. While this all sounds fun how about all the missing data (BPW pulses) that went on during this time and also if the engine is changing speed you've got a big problem. The injector open time is not a fix amount and it varies based on voltage and fuel pressure.
"You still have to understand what data can be used and at what time that data is good. Just any old viewer cannot do that for you."
Not trying to twist anything just reading your post and what was the implication of your statement. I assumed you were talking about your viewer being able to understand what data can be used and at what time that data is good. And MLV was just any old viewer.
This is true when your looking at the Vtune data (closed loop operation) as we can tell from the ECM what is data to use and what data is not to be used. The other viewers cannot do that. Since your turning the closed loop system off the ECM doesn't care what the O2's are doing, and doesn't have to worry about updating them at all.
Quote from: Steve Cole on September 20, 2011, 04:24:15 PM
So how did you dream this up? If I understand it correctly you are looking 3 records back to get your first BPW reading, then your trying to back out another BPW from further down the line. While this all sounds fun how about all the missing data (BPW pulses) that went on during this time and also if the engine is changing speed you've got a big problem. The injector open time is not a fix amount and it varies based on voltage and fuel pressure.
So what formula do/would you use?
Quote from: Steve Cole on September 20, 2011, 05:11:00 PM
This is true when your looking at the Vtune data (closed loop operation) as we can tell from the ECM what is data to use and what data is not to be used. The other viewers cannot do that. Since your turning the closed loop system off the ECM doesn't care what the O2's are doing, and doesn't have to worry about updating them at all.
OK so it is vtune that reassembles the data packets in the correct order not datamaster. The subject has been datamaster vs MLV not vtune. How come there is no o2 data that can be shown on a vtune data recording? I suspect that you have hidden this data and ve new from the data recording because vtune relies on this data to come up with the ve corrections.
Since you demand Andy show his cards why won't you.
I can see O2 date on Vtune data recording.
But..... You haven't bothered since 160.
We invented the stuff and how it all works so I see no need to explain how to do it to Andy or anyone else. What I can tell you is that it took plenty of time to work it all out then PROVE that it works. With years of it working in the field it has backed up what we did in development. Andy has done none of that by his own admissions here in this thread. He skims over the top of things and isn't willing to put in the time, effort and money to go do what we did. That's his choice, but people need to know this when reading some of the claims that have been made. Had he bothered to put in the time and effort in to doing a proper testing he would have or should have found these things out. The most simply things he did not know about and that was the sample rate, this is one of the first things you must work with. If you do not know and understand the basic operating principles of the system your in deep trouble, and that is where he is at.
Quote from: Sporty 48 on September 20, 2011, 04:17:50 PM
... the reason I do not use closed loop is I do not understand it well enough and have enough uncertainty about the operation to not trust it.. Furthermore, I detect enough salesmanship and hear conflicting explanations of the same thing in different contexts when reading..
Additionally, some people I trust have confirmed some of my reservations.
Many, I'd dearly love to hear some of that stuff. Can you de-personalize it and give us the overview?
Of course, you should know I'll be going into this with a "what's not to like about closed-loop operation?" standpoint. I understand it (well-enough, at least) and appreciate it very much. Though I don't have any first-hand experience with any kind of wild combination of parts that make it not work...
Was to Andy:
Quote from: glens on September 20, 2011, 02:55:28 PM
What are you using for your "Fueling Change" formula? What are the values indicative of, %?
Okay, you answered that. (You do understand the sample record is far too incomplete for what you'd described, right?)
QuoteAfter you explain that, please explain what it is you'd rather see, and why what it is you're showing there is "wrong". Okay?
Question ignored so far...
Quote[ edit: Looks like some fake "granularity" has been imposed on those charts. How does that come about? Also attached image of MLV showing a TTS .dm3 file. What would you say is wrong about it? ]
Also ignored so far...
Did you forget to comment on those last two parts or do you merely choose not to?
Quote from: glens on September 20, 2011, 06:45:07 PMAfter you explain that, please explain what it is you'd rather see, and why what it is you're showing there is "wrong". Okay?
Adjustable o2 feedback or at least the same logic used on the BT bikes. Most of the software I mess with, has this stuff totally configurable.
I have no idea what fake granularity means??? What is the change in fuel delivered from the injectors if the pulse width instantly changes from 3.5 to 3 ms with no changes in the basic sensors? For now, let's assume the injector dead time is 1 ms.
Quote from: Steve Cole on September 17, 2011, 11:20:49 AM
blah blah blah blah...
you seem to spend an inordinate amount of time telling us how Andy has no idea what he is talking about......what you fail to take into account is that there are many people that have used his methods and gotten very good results.......
I cant figure out why you are so against this method other than the fact that perhaps you don't want people to use it.
I don't have a dog in this race, but you certainly do,or so it would seem.
The PV is a great tuner, and Andy's method of tuning with it is also very good, and gets results ......it would be nice if you stopped trying to prove otherwise...those of us who use it, see your criticism for what it is.
Quote from: crosshairs on September 20, 2011, 07:01:35 PM
Quote from: Steve Cole on September 17, 2011, 11:20:49 AM
blah blah blah blah...
you seem to spend an inordinate amount of time telling us how Andy has no idea what he is talking about......what you fail to take into account is that there are many people that have used his methods and gotten very good results.......
I cant figure out why you are so against this method other than the fact that perhaps you don't want people to use it.
I don't have a dog in this race, but you certainly do,or so it would seem.
The PV is a great tuner, and Andy's method of tuning with it is also very good, and gets results ......it would be nice if you stopped trying to prove otherwise...those of us who use it, see your criticism for what it is.
Why is it you post a "Quote" of something I never said? All anyone needs to do is go read the post you quoted and you will not find your quote in it anywhere.
I have no issue with any method provided that you understand what it is you are doing. I also didn't say a thing about a PV tuner so why is it that you have to come here and make things up? For someone who claims they have no dog in this race how about posting the truth as I have done, as it sure looks like you have some other reason for posting. As for posting the facts that's what I and others have done and if Andy had done the testing himself he would have known this long ago by simple testing.
You can tune anyway you like but the facts are still the facts and no matter how hard Andy tries they are not going to change. They will not change for him and they willnot change for me so you just have to properly deal with them.
Quote from: crosshairs on September 20, 2011, 07:01:35 PM
Quote from: Steve Cole on September 17, 2011, 11:20:49 AM
blah blah blah blah...
you seem to spend an inordinate amount of time telling us how Andy has no idea what he is talking about......what you fail to take into account is that there are many people that have used his methods and gotten very good results.......
Same goes for TTS, many have used it with very good results, both DIY and tuners
I cant figure out why you are so against this method other than the fact that perhaps you don't want people to use it.
I don't have a dog in this race, but you certainly do,or so it would seem.
I do, my bike
The PV is a great tuner, and Andy's method of tuning with it is also very good, and gets results ......it would be nice if you stopped trying to prove otherwise...those of us who use it, see your criticism for what it is.
Steve never said that the PV was not a great tuner, but Andy has yet to prover his methods here, nor at HDF and other forums. He also continues to insist that either the ecm code or the TTS code/method is lacking or "busted" but fails to provide concrete verifiable proven proof. His criticism is also seen the same way by users of TTS. Btw, FWIW, I count the users of his method here as what, 3, 4? And the PV following, where are they at?
Andy has consistaintly failed to prove any thing and continues to dance around questions asked while claiming the "code" is busted, demanding info and proof in regards to TTS while failing to do so himself, etc. etc. Same song, same dance here as elsewhere.
Quote from: Tsani on September 20, 2011, 07:37:57 PM
Andy has consistaintly failed to prove any thing and continues to dance around questions asked while claiming the "code" is busted, demanding info and proof in regards to TTS while failing to do so himself, etc. etc. Same song, same dance here as elsewhere.
See post 391 above.
Quote from: whittlebeast on September 20, 2011, 07:00:28 PM
Quote from: glens on September 20, 2011, 06:45:07 PMAfter you explain that, please explain what it is you'd rather see, and why what it is you're showing there is "wrong". Okay?
Adjustable o2 feedback or at least the same logic used on the BT bikes. Most of the software I mess with, has this stuff totally configurable.
This ain't megasquirt... What is "adjustable O2 feedback" and why would the sportsters use different EFI logic than the big twins?
QuoteI have no idea what fake granularity means??? What is the change in fuel delivered from the injectors if the pulse width instantly changes from 3.5 to 3 ms with no changes in the basic sensors? For now, let's assume the injector dead time is 1 ms.
In the chart you'd posted there were multiple steps inserted within the graphed lines, as if there were that many sample points when none of the usual TTS data I've seen viewed in any method has such an apparently fine data flow structure. It looks to me like something is trying to make it look like you'd get a bunch of sample points between, say, the high and low voltages in an O2 sensor signal swing. I'd bet the ECM won't put out such fine-grained O2 sensor plot-points even if it were possible to have it put out
only them!
[ edit: sorry, I didn't intentionally dodge your question. By "instantly changes" do you mean from one cycle to the next? How many times in a data log do you suppose you're seeing two injector signals from consecutive cycles? Ever? At any rate, your question is either a little naive or misleading. Do you mean also (but unstated) that the fuel pressure is the same? Are you aware of how the ECM waivers the fuel so as to cause the O2 sensor signal to switch? Are you aware that if you've got the CLBs close to usable limits and/or have altered the sensor voltage externally (as with a voltage divider of some kind), and thereby one of the O2 sensor swings goes well into non-linear territory, that the ECM will quite likely get things a bit wrong on its injector signals (in terms of overshooting, &c.)? Does that make for "busted code" as you put it? ]
Quote from: whittlebeast on September 20, 2011, 08:04:56 PM
Quote from: Tsani on September 20, 2011, 07:37:57 PM
Andy has consistaintly failed to prove any thing...
See post 391 above.
Andy! What could you possibly feel post 391 proves?
Quote from: glens on September 20, 2011, 08:13:18 PM
Andy! What could you possibly feel post 391 proves?
Glen, you would not believe the way these Sportys feel open loop tuned compared to what they feel like closed loop. That log is just the hard evidence. I fist noticed this when I first bought the bike and noticed how much better the bike rode cold. I later found out thru testing that running o2 eliminators made the same huge positive difference. My latest setup is a TTS base tune but data logged and tweaked thru PowerVision.
Beast
Happy to hear your enthusiasm.
Do you think a tune you generate would compensate for the colder weather we in the north are now enjoying?
Then adjust back to the hot weather of the high desert this winter?
Start a new thread?
VTune?
Would my existing VE's be changed over time by the tune?
Would I still be able to use MegaLogViewer HD?
Does the tune change the timing permanently or just like the adaptive feature get wiped out with a reboot?
Should the existing tune be the starting point, just change the AFR's to 14.6 everywhere or what rpm to what kPa area?
Would do this on a separate computer so that the demon spawn of this virus.....no, no, just kidding.
Personal enough for you?
Quote from: glens on September 20, 2011, 06:39:20 PM
Of course, you should know I'll be going into this with a "what's not to like about closed-loop operation?" standpoint. I understand it (well-enough, at least) and appreciate it very much. Though I don't have any first-hand experience with any kind of wild combination of parts that make it not work...
Quote from: Sporty 48 on September 20, 2011, 09:00:10 PM
Happy to hear your enthusiasm.
My enthusiasm comes in spurts :)
QuoteDo you think a tune you generate would compensate for the colder weather we in the north are now enjoying?
Even open-loop-only, all things being otherwise correct with the "tune", changes in ambient temperature would be handled just fine by the ECM. I'm confident a good closed-loop tune would compensate for the different seasonal fuel blends just the same as it does the different blends of fuel one encounters as they travel about the country; something (fuel adaptation) which cannot be properly handled in only open-loop operation.
QuoteThen adjust back to the hot weather of the high desert this winter?
If the ignition timing isn't set on the ragged edge, yes. Closed-loop will handily handle such transitions so long as all the parts work properly and properly together.
QuoteStart a new thread?
Why bother, the way things seem to go around here, unless you just want to have something which might be easier to find via the search engine later.
QuoteVTune?
I've only performed a handful of them, but they've all been successful for everyday purposes.
QuoteWould my existing VE's be changed over time by the tune?
Your VE's won't get altered in any way, shape, or form unless you do so directly. They can
effectively get altered by the fueling [only] adaptability of our closed-loop system(s), but unless it's because you've got some funky hard parts involved, or something like your O2 sensor (or injector) leads swapped, this is
exactly what you want your system to do on your (and your engine's) behalf.
QuoteWould I still be able to use MegaLogViewer HD?
No reason whatsoever that you couldn't view with it any datalog files you might take.
QuoteDoes the tune change the timing permanently or just like the adaptive feature get wiped out with a reboot?
The only (ignition) timing changes brought about
should be short-term while the Adaptive Fuel Values get brought into line for the fuel blend you just filled up with, if it's perhaps not-so-desirable as you'd hoped. If you're getting effectively-permanent timing changes (would be retard only) then you're too close to the ragged edge anyway, for whatever reason.
The Adaptive Fuel Values take a bit more than just a "reboot" to get zeroed-out. In such a deliberate event, your timing changes would be reset as well. Ideally, your AFVs would never be far from doing nothing anyway; that is to say, your VEs would be set well-enough such that the AFVs only serve as fine trims for the current conditions, whatever they may be.
QuoteShould the existing tune be the starting point, just change the AFR's to 14.6 everywhere or what rpm to what kPa area?
That would depend, of course, upon how close the "current" "tune" happens to be. As far as the while-[v]tuning settings specifics, there's no need to duplicate here the very complete information already provided in the TTS Tuning Guide PDF. There are a couple schools of thought about disabling or retaining Acceleration/Deceleration enrichment/enleanment functionality while vtuning. For on-the-street use, I think it best to leave them active. Sure, you'll lose some data hits that way, but I tend to think that if you're rapidly changing the state of the running engine, you really wouldn't want any "hits" then anyway because they'd not represent a condition that's normal-enough to give you proper clues.
QuoteWould do this on a separate computer so that the demon spawn of this virus.....no, no, just kidding.
I do it on a GNU/Linux box running an emulated "Windows" system...
QuotePersonal enough for you?
I reckon so! How about you?
QuoteOf course, you should know I'll be going into this with a "what's not to like about closed-loop operation?" standpoint. I understand it (well-enough, at least) and appreciate it very much. Though I don't have any first-hand experience with any kind of wild combination of parts that make it not work...
Darn I was hoping you came back with some first hand knowledge. still stage 1?
so I still say the same thing I did last year and the year before......try some big motors with compression,huge overlap cams ,center fold pipes. talking theory is fine and you are very good at it. if it always worked as in theory,there would be no problem.
No, not still just stage 1. But that's as irrelevant here as the fire-breathing stuff you mentioned. This guy's riding a sportster that's still something close to factory output near as I have gathered. He's been led to believe since it's a sportster that the closed-loop code is busted. I'd like to hear how he came to that conclusion.
Quote from: glens on September 21, 2011, 07:47:18 AM
No, not still just stage 1. But that's as irrelevant here as the fire-breathing stuff you mentioned. This guy's riding a sportster that's still something close to factory output near as I have gathered. He's been led to believe since it's a sportster that the closed-loop code is busted. I'd like to hear how he came to that conclusion.
Some of it might come from the mis info being spread on and off this forum. When you talk or email to some about their product. They spend most of the time telling you about other people and their product, and how meesed up it is. Instead of just answering the questions you have asked. Dynojet did this to me big time. Luckily I was able to get a hold of Jamie. Good info about the system, tuning, OL vs. CL, when to use each, and even a little TTS vs. PCV.
Like I said earlier in this post. Coversation should be when to use CL. Not all or nothing.
"try some big motors with compression,huge overlap cams ,center fold pipes."
Are you saying the stock switching sensors have a hard time getting accurate readings with this type of build?
Quote from: whittlebeast on September 20, 2011, 08:38:31 PM
Quote from: glens on September 20, 2011, 08:13:18 PM
Andy! What could you possibly feel post 391 proves?
Glen, you would not believe the way these Sportys feel open loop tuned compared to what they feel like closed loop. That log is just the hard evidence. I fist noticed this when I first bought the bike and noticed how much better the bike rode cold. I later found out thru testing that running o2 eliminators made the same huge positive difference. My latest setup is a TTS base tune but data logged and tweaked thru PowerVision.
Beast
Andy
You do know the Sportster and the Big Twin run the same code don't you. So I ask you again how is it busted when you say it works in a Big Twin fine?
Since you now admit to faking the data to put it in MLV how much other data have you been faking?
Quote from: Steve Cole on September 21, 2011, 08:33:59 AM
Quote from: whittlebeast on September 20, 2011, 08:38:31 PM
Quote from: glens on September 20, 2011, 08:13:18 PM
Andy! What could you possibly feel post 391 proves?
Glen, you would not believe the way these Sportys feel open loop tuned compared to what they feel like closed loop. That log is just the hard evidence. I fist noticed this when I first bought the bike and noticed how much better the bike rode cold. I later found out thru testing that running o2 eliminators made the same huge positive difference. My latest setup is a TTS base tune but data logged and tweaked thru PowerVision.
Beast
Andy
You do know the Sportster and the Big Twin run the same code don't you. So I ask you again how is it busted when you say it works in a Big Twin fine?
Since you now admit to faking the data to put it in MLV how much other data have you been faking?
The short answer.. Harley Hidden Tables
Hardtail78,
A reasonable middle of the road position, good, so for a stage 1 build, what do you propose? RPM and kPa range please.
Andy told me where he uses closed loop.
I went back to my earlier pre dyno tunes to check where the AFR's were set to 14.6.
Glens,
You referred me back to the tuning pdf rather than state your opinion. I guess if you are working for a tuning company that would be understandable, trade secrets and all.
It will only hurt a little bit to stake out a position, grow a set, no ridicule from me.
As far as who suggested to me that closed loop was not the best way to go was Bean @BigBoysCycles my very fine dyno tuner, if I remember correctly. Andy has mentioned it once or twice and :embarrassed: also the knowledgeable Harley tech guy while discussing tuning.
There are others here, one affectionately referred to as Chicken Little comes to mind
Steve,
The more you ridicule Andy, the surer I am that he is on to something.
Quote from: hrdtail78 on September 21, 2011, 08:10:56 AM
Like I said earlier in this post. Coversation should be when to use CL. Not all or nothing.
Quote from: Sporty 48 on September 21, 2011, 09:38:14 AM
Steve,
The more you ridicule Andy, the surer I am that he is on to something.
It's not ridicule when it's the truth. If you want to believe him that's your choice but I would suggest you sit down and look, learn and understand a few things first. The data is what it is and you cannot just go making things up to make it fit what you want. Why is it every time he has been caught doing it, it goes back to the same old thing? Doesn't it make you wonder just the slightest bit.
Steve,
What is the optimum closed loop RPM/kPa area?
Stock tune is 30-80kPs idle to 4500 rpms.
The TFM171-02*tune is the same.
The points you pick would have to be based on several things but some of the main things on picking the closed loop area has to start from when the exhaust readings are stable. So in a modified exhaust you have to be careful and look at the data coming back from the ECM first. If the data is unstable (O2's not switching steadily) then closed loop is not going to work properly in that area properly. Just understand this does not mean you do not want closed loop in that area it just means you have another problem that needs to be solved prior to trying to run it in that area. Once you solve for that case then you move on to finding the range the engine normally runs in up to about 80 kPa when being ridden. As the RPM climbs higher you will find that the kPa also climbs higher. So to keep the engine pushing the bike down the road at 5000 RPM it's always at or near 80 kPa then that would indicate a good stopping point in the RPM scale. With this information from your application you can pretty well pick out the normal operating range for Closed Loop. Typically we find those areas to be idle to about 4500 RPM but due to various engine builds and riding styles you may find you need to alter them. I like to do the testing in high gear as that's what your going to run most of the time.
Steve,
So you are saying that the closer the VE's to "ideal" the better the closed loop tune is going to work?
The O2's switching showing randomness or equilibrium at stoichiometric air fuel ratio?
Why then on dyno sheets is the AFR well below that for a performance tune, around 13.5 or lower? Does the closed loop tune adjust to that or is that in the open loop zone?
The closer the VE is to being correct the better the engine performance will be. The O2 switching is driven by the ECM not the other way around. So the ECM drives the mixture leaner until the O2 reading moves to a point. It is held there for a certain number of engine cycles then driven richer until the O2 reading moves to another point and held again. This cycle is repeated as long as your in closed loop. So if you were to try and look at it you need more information than what comes out of the data information because of all the missing data cycles. This is why high speed logging equipment is needed to reconstruct what is going on. Do a search in the older threads from about three weeks back I think, as someone posted a link to a paper on how to reconstruct undersampled data. It's a good starting point to understand the issue at hand. So looking at the O2 data in the data information you can only look to see if they are switching consistently. If they are not then it's a good guess there is exhaust O2 sensor placement issues. The main reason for running a richer calibration at WOT is to keep cylinder temperatures in check, you can pretty much run anywhere from 12.8 - 13.5 and see little to no power changes other than cylinder temperature really starts taking off at 13.5.
In the HD Delphi code only, what is learned in closed loop is applied in open loop. This is not always the case in other applications. The most common approach I know of is to use what is learned provided it is richer and not use any enleanment in open loop.
Edit: The post on undersampled data is this very thread Reply #96 contains the information.
"In the HD Delphi code only, what is learned in closed loop is applied in open loop.
This is not always the case in other applications.
The most common approach I know of is to use what is learned provided it is richer and not use any enleanment in open loop."
A very choice tidbit Steve.
Hope I can apply this in the right way.
Why do you suppose other tuners do not provide Sportster tuning if they are the very same ECU and code?
Guess they do not know how to handle it properly, or they feel the market segment is too small.
The code is the same for BTs and Sportsters. It is NOT busted. That has been made very plain.
But, in the same vein, a sportster is NOT a BT. They generally are ridden harder than a BT. The cam events influence things along with head design. The biggest factor, I think, is pipe design. BT pipes are light years ahead of Sporty pipes. These items make MOST tuners wish to open loop these bikes, simply because it is easier to make em run decent by doing so. I imagine it is fairly involved to make one, with upgrades, perform well in CL without some work being involved. Like I have said, to you, in the past, it would REALLY behoove you to check out those Bobcats.
Some BT owners will leave their pipes alone, but I cannot think of one sporty with stock exhaust. I had a 59 sporty, and loved that bike with drag pipes. Of course, the shifter was on the 'wrong' side from BTs and it had a magneto one spun around for kick starting, but it was a hoot to ride... back in the days when they REALLY had leaded 100 octane!
I don't know about anybody else, but even though I think you post off the wall crap, I also think you are truly trying to learn. I WANT you to succeed in this tuning crap and see you with a strong running sporty and use closed loop.
I have a friend, FBRR, a member here, who told me about the enleanment deal in open loop. GM thought it would be stupid to allow the AFVs to make an engine leaner when in OL. AFVs effect the WHOLE tune, and if things aren't dead right with pipes, the tune degrades over time. With the pipes available... MY (and only mine) thoughts are it's the pipes that make folks shy away.
Also, understand that Bean tunes with 5 gas and NOT AFR and he does NOT tune CL bikes AFAIK. It's not that he wouldn't tune ur sporty CL, it's that he simply doesn't tune hardly ANY bike CL. See?
I, again myself, feel that a smaller CL section is called for when using iffy pipes. Since the AFVs WILL effect all open loop areas, why not let them do that with a smaller section of CL to start with. I would NOT do idle areas, and I would not do anything over 50-60 MAP either. I would find an area where the pipes DO work good and keep THAT as the cl area. If the CL is solid, it will NOT make a tune turn to crap after a few hundred miles. So, I like picking an area that IS solid, see what I mean?
Here is a thought. Everybody gets in Steve's ass all the time, and Steve fights back, etc. Ever wonder about that? PV,EMS, et. al. leaves OTHERS to defend those products. Steve does not. Steve messes up at times, etc, but he IS passionate about his products, as opposed to 'bean counters' from Dynojet, etc. You MAY wish to consider here who actually has quite a bit of experience, Steve, or others.
Me, I am like, and do like, Andy. I also fiddle around, etc and the folks on here tell me how dumb I am with some of my ideas. Yeah, I'm dumb. And I tend to listen to Steve for guidance and when I don't believe him, I search it out with others.... even Andy. A LOT of times 99%... I discover I AM wrong and Steve was right, OK?
I think it is time for you to start playing around with v-tune on your bike. Start with an unmolested base tune and see what happens. Last time... everything was a 'mystery' to you about tuning, but now you are gaining a handle on it. BIG difference... Even if in the end, you cannot get one to tune to your liking... at least you 'get' the process and just maybe Steve, Mayor, etc will help you along the way? You will always have your present tune t fall back on if things go awry!
Steve,
I like reading your responses and really appreciate your time. Steve does also represent a good product/company and has a responsibility from that point of view. So I respect the responsibilities.
Wurk Truk,
Funny, others suggested how strong the open loop is but have not made concrete suggestions. You have, thanks.
You also remembered the D&D Bobcats and the concerns they bring to the tune, good thinking. I wonder about how to check the effect on performance by the pipe? Am I looking for an instability in the data log? How would I spot it?
"BT pipes are light years ahead of Sporty pipes," thank you Wurk Truk for making me smile about off the wall comments I might make.
In this cool weather the Sportster is so smooth and fast, I love it.
A State Trooper gave me an early Christmas present last night, so remember boys, be polite, sit up straight and they have rear looking radar.
Sporty, I thought you were asking me about settings recommendations for use while "tuning", which is why I mentioned the tuning guide for reference. Personally, I like to drop hot idle areas just slightly out of closed-loop. I leave the upper bounds where they were in the calibration. You could certainly play around with it, but there are some possible ramifications, even if only in my head.
I'm going to throw a couple notions out here for consideration. I don't have the definitive answers to the questions this will raise, but perhaps we can come to learn them by discussing it.
There are at least two ways the AFVs could affect open-loop operation (in the good way).
For purposes of this discussion, speculate that you have per cylinder an AFV table just like your VE tables, only much more sparsely populated (fewer cells at greater intervals). Just like in the VE tables, an area of operation that falls outside the center of any given cell uses not only the information from that cell, but proportionately also the information from the adjoining cell(s) in the direction(s) away from center of the cell in which you're operating. So if you were operating at the intersection of four cells, each of those four would be used with equal weight, averaged together for the value to use at the moment.
While the VE tables obviously go all the way to 100% throttle in a TPS/RPM table, the AFV table would not reach that high since there'd be no time the engine would be running closed-loop there, thus no way to update an AFV there. Okay? So the right side and the bottom of the AFV table would fall short of both 100% throttle and maximum engine speed. But when you venture into those areas in operation, the last-known AFV from the direction you came would get used where you are now. That would be one way (speculatively, but certainly the way I would do it) in which an AFV would affect open-loop operation.
Another way would be while in an area which is normally closed-loop, you've whacked the throttle open, calling for alternate operation which is itself not closed-loop. The AFV(s) which would be influencing that spot while closed-loop will influence it still just the same. I'm fairly confident this notion is in fact fact.
Now, back to that first, speculative, "AFV table". Let's assume the cell locations are hard-coded. Without knowing where the cells are, it would be possible, by alteration of parts of the calibration over which you have control, to decrease the scope of closed-loop operation. Doing so could conceivably "strand" the last column or bottom row (or parts thereof) of AFV "cells". If this were to happen, the always-open-loop areas which rely on them could never benefit from any proper updates to the AFV table. If you'd switched from straight gas to corn gas, you could wind up leaner than you'd figured in those outlying areas until such time as you ran that fuel through and replaced it with what you'd used while tuning. (Naturally, that problem slaps you right in the face in the event you're running open-loop everywhere. If you'd so tuned to the corn gas, then you'd be richer everywhere while running straight gas. Or maybe it'd be something unguessable when running whatever it was you could get for fuel some times. And what would happen if your fuel pressure regulator got a little sick with no AFVs to compensate?)
You might also be able to "AFV-strand" areas on the left and top of the table if it's a fixed table. As well certain areas within the table. Now you might want to do some of that on purpose for good cause, but we still don't know the particulars of the table, so any of this could happen in a way you'd like, or in one you wouldn't.
Maybe the AFV "tables" are dynamic, based upon the closed-loop area called out in the Fuel table? That could be a sweet deal.
We (at least I) don't know just how this is coded. It would be nice to know, if possible, to be able to master the situation as/when needed. And to avoid trouble.
Perhaps some of this is why some tuners opt to completely forego closed-loop when they encounter something not entirely closed-loop-friendly? Just throw the baby out with the bath water?
Closed-loop operation has some very real benefits, for sure...
Glens,
Thank you for the thoughtful explanation. It is far too complex and nuanced for me to understand all at once, so I will print it out and think about it.
In defense of the open loop guys, since I am still one foremost but secondly in 10 hours of dyno tuning and teaching, Bean gave me an open loop tune with room for improvement that put the faith back into me that the Harley was worth keeping and not a fat old pig.
Now it is a fat screaming boar. (Note: Wurk Truk, for a Sportster that is)
Sporty will kick ass on a BT.
Wurk Truk,
After the tune,
So much depends upon the clutch and throttle operator, the power to weight ratio and when above 100mph the Sporty is a little twitchy.
And I just got the message from God to slow down a bit.
A lot of us have received this message in one form or another. I wrecked in Tennessee and was lucky lucky lucky I didn't really get hurt.
Twitchy is no fun anyways.
Here is an interesting high resolution screen shot. These traces where taken off a totally stock Sportster running the stock tune. The tune was a fresh install and the fuel trims were cleared. The bike was ridden for about 30 min and the killed. About 30 seconds after killing it, I started the PowerVision data logger and motor was started and logged for about 15 min.
On the left, I plotted MAP, RPM and the trace identified Rear AFF. On the right is MAP, RPM and a function that is VE New/VE Both traces are in the same scale.
Notice that both traces give very similar (but not identical) results. Also notice how the VE are fat almost everywhere.
http://www.ncs-stl.com/PVTune/AFF_VENew_HighRes.bmp (http://www.ncs-stl.com/PVTune/AFF_VENew_HighRes.bmp)
The original data can be found at
http://www.ncs-stl.com/PVTune/StockInstall.zip (http://www.ncs-stl.com/PVTune/StockInstall.zip)
You can see the o2 driven injector swings if you elect to download and trace it.
Have fun tuning
Beast
MegaLogViewer colors are opposite from the TTS.
IS that to be consistent with other Power Vision data plots?
The vagaries of the closed loop system are giving me fits......
Quote from: whittlebeast on September 23, 2011, 06:55:51 PM
Here is an interesting high resolution screen shot. These traces where taken off a totally stock Sportster running the stock tune. The tune was a fresh install and the fuel trims were cleared.
What do you mean by "the tune was a fresh install"? If everything was totally stock, including the ECM calibration, all you'd need to do would be to reset the AFVs. By mentioning a "tune" installation you immediately call into question the basis for your current statements / implications.
QuoteThe bike was ridden for about 30 min and the killed. About 30 seconds after killing it, I started the PowerVision data logger and motor was started and logged for about 15 min.
Much more interesting would be a log of those first several minutes, not so much after you'd run it half an hour. But I'll assume that "log0048_FreshStockInstall.csv" was in fact from the initial run and "log0049_StockInstall2edStart.csv" is the only log you mention making just there.
QuoteOn the left, I plotted MAP, RPM and the trace identified Rear AFF. On the right is MAP, RPM and a function that is VE New/VE Both traces are in the same scale.
Much more visually informative is the "strip-chart" traces overlayed when both scaled from 75% to 125%.
QuoteNotice that both traces give very similar (but not identical) results. Also notice how the VE are fat almost everywhere.
More on the "AFF" trace later, but probably the main reason they're similar but not identical is that the "VE New" isn't good data. I mean, (again, assuming the first .csv was from the "fresh" run) "VE New" shows changes, albeit minuscule,
before the O2 sensors even come on-line!
And how do you gather the VEs are "fat"?
QuoteYou can see the o2 driven injector swings if you elect to download and trace it.
You mean injector-driven O2 swings, right? 'Cause that's what's happening, not the way you worded it. It's textbook, Andy. Pure textbook.
So PowerVision shows AFF (why not AFV as it's properly called?). I suppose you consider that to be an unveiling of one of the "many" "Harley Hidden Tables"? How about the "Gear", "Econ.Inst" [Economy (Instant)], and "TripA.Econ" [Trip A (Avg Economy)] "channels" in those log files? Are they also HHTs? Or are the whole lot of them "calculated channels" provided as "value added" stuff by PV? (see the WinPV Help file):
"Power Vision provides insightful, valuable information on how your bike is running.
• Display all J1850 H-D vehicle data as well as wide band AFR and various calculated
channels (such as MPG instant and trip MPG)
..."
In any event,
THERE'S NOT ENOUGH DATA!
Glen you can't take things at face value.
You know this sportster is several years old and has been tuned extensively. Andy did a restore of the original saved factory tune as saved by mastertune that = fresh install. Again clearing the fuel trims is nothing out of order when flashing the ecm he is simply satiating that all data registers are at a fresh starting point. I am not certain why you are always trying to pick a fight? What is the big deal what PV call one of it's data records as long as it is documented in its instructions. It is obvious you have a hard on for any thing Andy wants to share. I would suggest if you don't like it, ignore this thread.
Sporty, it's relative simple. Really. And the colors are immaterial.
In closed-loop operation, the ECM drives the fuel high, then low, then back again, then back again... It monitors itself by reading the O2 sensors tracking the swings. It zeros in, not on the specific AFR, but on the narrow range centered upon that AFR. Over time as necessary corrections are noted, they're kept track of and utilized so as to keep the fueling swings nicely centered on the target output of the O2 sensors. And these corrections can successfully carry over to the areas of operation which cannot be self-monitored via the simpler, faster, and cheaper type of O2 sensor we have in use: both wide-open throttle and sudden throttle transitions throughout the operating range, along with cold startup, to name a few.
This is an excellent method of maintaining the tune in the face of changing circumstances. Circumstances like differing fuel make-up/quality; differing injector response over time; differing fuel pressure over time; etc.
A carburetor has better ability to adapt to running variations than does open-loop-only EFI. And a carburetor can't hold a candle to EFI which is running with a self-contained system of checks and balances (closed-loop operation).
The only real drawback is that all the closed-loop running parts must work and work together in harmony. Sometimes that doesn't happen, though, and the conventional wisdom says to just bypass closed-loop operation altogether when problems arise. Some folks never even bother to look for any problems, they just step back several years in technological time as a matter of course.
Quote from: cts1950 on September 23, 2011, 10:14:39 PM
You know this sportster is several years old and has been tuned extensively.
Now I do, since you say so. I'm certainly no mind reader.
QuoteI am not certain why you are always trying to pick a fight? What is the big deal what PV call one of it's data records as long as it is documented in its instructions. It is obvious you have a hard on for any thing Andy wants to share. I would suggest if you don't like it, ignore this thread.
I can't ignore it now since I'm a part of it.
I'm not trying to pick any fights. I'm trying to get Andy to put his intellect to good use and for good purpose in this matter.
He knows how closed-loop works yet he represents it otherwise and I can't figure out why he's doing that, if not just to stir things up needlessly. I'll have to ask your forgiveness for my trying to be a voice of reason.
And as far as Andy sharing things, he should learn how to do it better. Most of his stuff comes right out of left field. He obviously has something in mind but often fails to actually state just what it is. Like he's spent hours poring over a graph, pops on here to share it with us, and assumes that either we'll stare at it for hours too, or that whatever it is he thinks he's come to see just automatically jumps right out at us and tells the whole story; one which he has fleshed out in his mind but has failed to (re)produce for us here.
Then, when confronted with questions of most forms about it, says precious little.
I'm not trying to pick on him or pick a fight with him. But some of his stuff is just plain wild and it can be a little difficult to be civil in the face of it and the way he does it time after time.
Both the first and second ride on the stock tune are posted for download. In the first ride, you will see the AFFs come on line about 10 min into the ride. The O2s come on line at about 80 sec.
On the second start, the o2s come on line in 20 sec. The AFFs are there as soon as the bike is started as expected.
Beast
Glens,
The colors are immaterial if they are consistent, otherwise confusing. But of course the color chart on the side tells the story.
A very good explanation of the ideal closed loop operation, one of the best I have read. :up:
"The only real drawback is that all the closed-loop running parts must work and work together in harmony," Glens.
I would point out that a lot of us Harley guys are not operating at top mental speed. We do our best with what we have to work with. When complicated systems cause problems the simplest working answer is the best solution. One of the reasons Harley lasted through the depression is the simplicity of solutions to many problems, a good hundred year old design like the 1911 Colt.
You should notice that Andy has been scolded from on high and is a chastened man. Enough said.
Andy made those posts in response to offline questions, he is trying to illustrate a counter point, to demonstrate in a clear manner what he has been working so hard to explain. And he has tried many times to demonstrate it so I see it and understand it. We both agree that we felt it, the shitty stock closed loop tune, now Missouri, show me.
Once again, although I have not yet opened the zip file, the way you respond to him clues me that there is something to what he says. Sorry, just the cynical retired investigator in me.
I really appreciate your efforts to bring me to the "closed loop" though. I can see advantages if everything is working correctly.
Quote from: glens on September 23, 2011, 10:15:15 PM
Sporty, it's relative simple. Really. And the colors are immaterial.
In closed-loop operation, the ECM drives the fuel high, then low, then back again, then back again... It monitors itself by reading the O2 sensors tracking the swings. It zeros in, not on the specific AFR, but on the narrow range centered upon that AFR. Over time as necessary corrections are noted, they're kept track of and utilized so as to keep the fueling swings nicely centered on the target output of the O2 sensors. And these corrections can successfully carry over to the areas of operation which cannot be self-monitored via the simpler, faster, and cheaper type of O2 sensor we have in use: both wide-open throttle and sudden throttle transitions throughout the operating range, along with cold startup, to name a few.
This is an excellent method of maintaining the tune in the face of changing circumstances. Circumstances like differing fuel make-up/quality; differing injector response over time; differing fuel pressure over time; etc.
A carburetor has better ability to adapt to running variations than does open-loop-only EFI. And a carburetor can't hold a candle to EFI which is running with a self-contained system of checks and balances (closed-loop operation).
The only real drawback is that all the closed-loop running parts must work and work together in harmony. Sometimes that doesn't happen, though, and the conventional wisdom says to just bypass closed-loop operation altogether when problems arise. Some folks never even bother to look for any problems, they just step back several years in technological time as a matter of course.
Quote from: whittlebeast on September 24, 2011, 05:03:36 AM
Both the first and second ride on the stock tune are posted for download. In the first ride, you will see the AFFs come on line about 10 min into the ride. The O2s come on line at about 80 sec.
As you may have deduced, I had in fact fetched the files and had a look at them, and that I'd noticed "right off" both those points you just mentioned here. Do you have any opinion on whether this "AFF" is a "channel" provided by the ECM or is one mathematically derived after the fact? What's your opinion on the activity of "VE New" prior to any possible closed-loop operation?
QuoteOn the second start, the o2s come on line in 20 sec. The AFFs are there as soon as the bike is started as expected.
Duly noted as well.
Even with knowledge of the source/derivation of the "AFF"s themselves, it would be hard to use them for anything meaningful without knowledge of any sort of "table" layout for their source in the calibration. Unless you were able to identify where their cells (as such) were centered, and hold operation exactly there(s) for enough time to gather fair samples, all you can ever expect at any point in a log file is to see what a proportional average of up to four of those "cells" has become.
Are the values shown helpful at all? Certainly. They can indicate the relative accuracy of the calibration at the point in time the log was taken. But it would be pretty futile to try to use them to accurize the calibration
beyond below several percentage points in most every case. That is to say, it'd be fair enough to consider them when checking on changes you'd made, but not so much so to use them as a source of changes.
I now tune using the AFFs first to rough adjust the VEs. If the code is not giving the AFFs then I use the VeNewFrontPctPV trick to essentially derive the Front and rear AFF. Then I go to moving the target AFRs to 14.3 or so and chase out the lean holes. based on watching 30000 or so data point logs. Last I play with the AFRs to see where the motor feels the best. I have had very consistent results tuning this way, at least in the midrange where Harley riders spend the vast majority of their time.
I have no reason to think the AFF is anything but a raw channel from the ECU. I could ask the PV programmers if we really need to know.
My wideband will be here Monday and provided the midwest weather holds out, we will get a few logs in soon to see how I did.
Over the years, I have found the narrow bands to be easier to "read" and the wide bands to be a little flaky.
Beast
Quote from: whittlebeast on September 24, 2011, 11:40:28 AM
I have no reason to think the AFF is anything but a raw channel from the ECU. I could ask the PV programmers if we really need to know.
Is there
anything we don't really need to know? :) By all means, ask and report.
Let's look at the recorded data and tell me you cannot see anything that is wrong with it.
Let's use Andy's log0049_StockInstall2edStart.
Open the CSV in Excel and look at lines #180 - #190 Those 11 lines of data along with a bunch more are wrong and I am not saying this to start an argument but just so Andy can see what we have been trying to tell him for ages about the RAW data. In all those lines the Engine RPM is reported as 1184 for 8 lines and 1516 for 3 lines yet the Injector PW is reported as 6.88 front and 7.52 rear the whole time! VE is reported as ZERO for the first 6 lines and 73.5 front, 72 rear for the next 5 lines. Then the Rich/Lean indicator is reported as 0 for the first 5 line and 1 for the last 6. These type patterns of BAD data follow all through the entire CSV file. As a matter of fact the pattern that comes to light if you spend some time with it seems to be about every 10 - 11 lines of data in bunches. A HD engine be it XL or BT will NOT sit at and hold 1 RPM for 10 - 11 data frames! Let alone jump from one RPM to another and hold it perfectly still. In this log it shows that it does not vary by 1 RPM for ~10 frames at a time.
Something is wrong and it is very obvious if you just spend a little time with the raw data looking at it in this CSV file. Look to see what makes sense with an understanding of how an engine runs and it's easy. I can tell you for sure this is not coming from the ECM this way as I've looked at raw data from HD bikes for too many years. The ECM will not send data as fast as these logs are showing so it would be my guess that the PV has an internal clock read that is happening this fast and that is what is being reported, but I have no way to know for sure.
Quote from: glens on September 20, 2011, 02:55:28 PM
Looks like some fake "granularity" has been imposed on those charts. How does that come about?
It'd be a simple-enough task from the command-line using standard unix text-manipulating tools to pull every 11th line from the file and reconstruct it with just them, but then some of the data changes within the 10 that'd get culled, so that's a no-go, too.
I'd sure like to hear about that "AFF channel".
Take just the time stamp line and subtract the old from the new so you get to see the delta time between data lines and you will see a range of greater than 11 times! While the time is not huge with line by line varying 11 time the amount of time, god knows what goes with what. Now take that and put it against the fact that the ECM does not update each channel of data at the same rate and you can begin to see how impossible it is to work from the raw data without know something more about what is going on. Take Andy's made up formula's he posted earlier in this thread and you can begin to see why they do not work and you see it in the display.
As for your question about AFF I cannot answer that but I can tell you that the AFV's are not reported out in the data by HD if that's what your after.
When you see what's really going on its not so "way cool" any longer.
Andy said he could ask the PV programmers about the "AFF channel" and I'd sure like to hear the response...
While you're here, Steve, what would the O2 voltage offset be on a 2012 touring?
Anyone reading this should be impressed by the high sounding tag teaming techno talk.
I happen to have analyzed it as babble, very sure others see through it too.
Andy was trying to illustrate the not "broken code" but "jumbled code" that the Sportster people live with.
You two gentleman have just proven his point for him with your very elegant language skills.
Thanks....
Now, can we get down to fixing the problem or at least understanding it to make a work around?
Open Loop.
Bean, your tune is an example of hard work made to look like genius.
Sporty, I'm not affiliated with Steve or his products in any way, shape, or form, and my only communication with him over the past two years (at least) has been openly right here in this site's forum. Hell, he'd probably be offended by you thinking and/or suggesting that there's any affiliation between us!
As for myself, I don't care one way or the other what you might think in that regard. The reason I'm here doing what I'm doing is because of a sense of civic duty. If you want to disregard it that's fine; my conscience is clear.
If you're going to run open-loop throughout, removing all fueling adaptability ("protection") from the system which came with it, you'd best take the greatest care to get it right. Using a method that involves only unstructured data logs just ain't going to get you there. I don't know, maybe sportsters are cheap enough to experiment on.
By the way, the sportster code is neither broken nor jumbled. Have a look again at the image I posted a few pages back. The big twins exhibit exactly the same phenomenon. It's textbook correct in both cases.
from reading all wb and sporty 48's post it seems like a fine tuned sportster will never = a fine tuned Ducati and it is soley because of the jumbed/broken/hidden codes..................
Quote from: Jeffd on September 25, 2011, 03:59:45 AM
from reading all wb and sporty 48's post it seems like a fine tuned sportster will never = a fine tuned Ducati and it is soley because of the jumbed/broken/hidden codes..................
That has far more to do with the better cooling, intake design, the crank shaft, and the weight of the valve train. A four or even five valve head would sure help.
Beast
I just updated my PowerVision.settings file. I added a new field called RevsPerSec. This trace is essentially your torque curve. What I do is run the motor down to say 1800 RPM in second gear on a very level road. I tend to use the same stretch of road every time for repeatability. I then slam the throttle from 0 to 100 as fast as I can and let the motor sweep from 2000 to the rev limiter. The trace below is the result of the test.
(http://www.ncs-stl.com/PVTune/TorqueCurveTesting.jpg)
You can see the way my motor starts rolling off torque at 5850 RPM. RPM per sec is a function of how hard the motor is pulling in the drive belt and accelerating the bike.
Have fun tuning
Beast
Oh Jeffd,
Thank you for your comment.
My Sporty is a screamer, runs smooth like a ricer. Tuned by Bean and with Andy, two very good tuners. I held up the process by asking so many questions.
I am trying to work up a closed loop tune, will not give up.
Quote from: Jeffd on September 25, 2011, 03:59:45 AM
from reading all wb and sporty 48's post it seems like a fine tuned sportster will never = a fine tuned Ducati and it is soley because of the jumbed/broken/hidden codes..................
Glens,
Wow, I would not be offended by associating with you. Whether we do agree about the data flow or not!
I sure do appreciate your opinion. You are helping me learn, and others too.
Like I said to Jeffd, working on a closed loop tune, will not give up.
Quote from: glens on September 24, 2011, 09:52:40 PM
Sporty, I'm not affiliated with Steve or his products in any way, shape, or form, and my only communication with him over the past two years (at least) has been openly right here in this site's forum. Hell, he'd probably be offended by you thinking and/or suggesting that there's any affiliation between us!
As for myself, I don't care one way or the other what you might think in that regard. The reason I'm here doing what I'm doing is because of a sense of civic duty. If you want to disregard it that's fine; my conscience is clear.
If you're going to run open-loop throughout, removing all fueling adaptability ("protection") from the system which came with it, you'd best take the greatest care to get it right. Using a method that involves only unstructured data logs just ain't going to get you there. I don't know, maybe sportsters are cheap enough to experiment on.
By the way, the sportster code is neither broken nor jumbled. Have a look again at the image I posted a few pages back. The big twins exhibit exactly the same phenomenon. It's textbook correct in both cases.
:emoGroan:
Andy showed the revs per second function to me some time ago. It sure helps you to identify the best shift point for max pull.
Quote from: whittlebeast on September 25, 2011, 06:44:34 AM
I just updated my PowerVision.settings file. I added a new field called RevsPerSec. This trace is essentially your torque curve. What I do is run the motor down to say 1800 RPM in second gear on a very level road. I tend to use the same stretch of road every time for repeatability. I then slam the throttle from 0 to 100 as fast as I can and let the motor sweep from 2000 to the rev limiter. The trace below is the result of the test.
(http://www.ncs-stl.com/PVTune/TorqueCurveTesting.jpg)
Sporty48
Typically in a discussion forum you discuss the facts and that's what's going on here. We are using the data that Andy himself presented not something that anyone else did. If you have a different opinion let's discuss it but let's also not forget we have to deal with facts. If the data Andy is using is wrong/flawed then would you not expect the conclusions to be the same? Since Andy himself has stated that the PV captures more data than the TTS (in this very thread) its time for that to be brought back up as there is something seriously wrong with the data he has posted from the PV unit. Andy is the one that started with the comparisons and I think it is only fair that he has to backup his falsely made claims. I let some of his statements get to me and I responded in a like fashion which was wrong and for that I'm sorry. Now we are going to stick to the facts and use the data he has presented so he can come here just like you or anyone else and address them.
Look at the graph that Andy has just posted. Pay attention to the white line on the bottom graph that is labeled as VSS. Please tell us if that looks right to you? Does your bike do that? As for tag teaming Andy the only thing that is going on here is to show you the things that are clearly wrong with the data he is presenting. If you want to ignore it that's fine but Glens has nothing to do with me and I with him, but the facts are the facts and there is no getting around them.
Now let's move on tho the middle graph labeled Rev's per second. How can the rev's per second be changing while the VSS is staying the same? Sorry but that's not possible while staying in one gear ratio as the same graph shows it to be.
Now move to the top graph and look at the RPM trace. It shows the engine RPM steadily climbing but yet when you compare the same section of time to the bottom graph and the middle graph it makes no sense as the VSS remains flat or steady for sections in time. The engine cannot gain RPM with the transmission in the same gear if the VSS does not increase at the same rate as the engine. So there are a few conclusions that can be drawn from this,
1. The data is flawed or
2. Andy is playing games with some math between the various three graphs or
3. MLV is not displaying the data properly
Since I have seen both Andy playing games with themath and flawed data from the PV it's my guess it's one or both of those happening.
PowerVision writes a data record every 25 ms or so on average as seen in the data logs. Each line of data merely writes the last value that is reported from the ECU since the last write. In the case of the Sporty code. The VSS changes about once every 10th write to the internal memory and as a result, the value changes about once every 250ms. I don't take the effort to smooth the VVS but I do smooth the RPM as RpmPV as well as the TP and the MAP. This all gets quite apparent when viewed with MLV.
Beast
So you are saying that the PV gives the uninitiated the impression that is is recording faster, but it is only repeating the same sample data over and over again. Yikes... Wouldn't a better data gathering system just take the data as presented, and not make up samples.? Unless you can factor filter them out later. I work a lot with noise theory, i.e. extracting useful information out of noise, and using the same sample data over and over it like making up data points and, in the wrong hands, can lead to significantly wrong conclusions.... true more samples in a period of time should get you more confidence, but not artificially expanding the samples. Unless you use some sophistication in your data analysis which I haven't seen here, you cannot be nowhere near the accuracy you imply. When I get a chance tomorrow, I'll dig up some notorious examples of how this technique can go horribly wrong... and perhaps some reference text... not that your conclusions are not valid, or that you are manipulating the tool capability on purpose, its just you conclusions leaves you open to valid skepticism. ...
Quote from: whittlebeast on September 25, 2011, 11:45:11 AM
PowerVision writes a data record every 25 ms or so on average as seen in the data logs. Each line of data merely writes the last value that is reported from the ECU since the last write. In the case of the Sporty code. The VSS changes about once every 10th write to the internal memory and as a result, the value changes about once every 250ms. I don't take the effort to smooth the VVS but I do smooth the RPM as RpmPV as well as the TP and the MAP. This all gets quite apparent when viewed with MLV.
Beast
Andy
Using your recording Log0049_StockInstall2edStart the above statements are not even close to being true. I again point you to the data at lines 180- 200 in that CSV file. The data rate runs anywhere from 7 ms to 82 ms per line. That's not anywhere close to 25 ms. per line other than a running average which is very misleading if your using it that way.
So you are now telling us that you are NOT displaying the real data but some of your homemade made-up versions there of, for only some items you post in MLV?
How are you telling what is the proper break points in the data for any given item? You cannot properly smooth things unless you know when things are getting updated. All your doing is fooling yourself and others when you just guess at it. The updates per data item on the same line occur at different times and different rates, so if you look at the data you can find some items that are updated at different rates than other items. The update rates and time of each item would need to be known to do any proper data smoothing.
As an example the RPM gets updated 3 times, the Front O2 2 times and the Front AFF never changes during the 180 - 200 lines of data and reports the same value before hand!
Let's look at the RPM. It starts at 1184 RPM then jumps to 1516 then to 1670. The engine does NOT do this! What this is showing you is there is data missing in between the data updates which is just what I have been telling you all along. As I stated before the data comes out in packets from the ECM and you need to know how to put them all together. It's clear that this is not happening in the PV data log and that Andy is guessing at how to try to put them together.
Why would you all this time be faking the data and not tell anyone that you were doing that?
How could you possibly fairly compare any two products when your faking the data in one?
When are you going to drop the stuff about Sporty code as an excuse as the same code runs in Big Twins?
So, Andy, it sounds like the PV unit maintains a buffer for each channel, stuffs whatever comes in from the ECM whenever it comes in, but maintains the last information from the ECM in each channel buffer until it's updated, and all the while at an arbitrary yet steady timeslice spits out whatever's in each channel buffer at the moment.
That's certainly not the way I'd do it. I'd flush the buffers after each arbitrary timeslice and if nothing's been replaced in the meantime, simply output ",," to the .csv for that channel for that timeslice. It still wouldn't do anything to guarantee data synchronization, but it sure wouldn't fill averages with wrong information.
I gather that in any of your screenshots, any channel labelled *PV indicates you've manipulated that data. Is this correct? If so, how do you manipulate it?
Steve, I think I've figured out what's going on. Andy discusses this stuff privately, or at least off the (this) forum, and merely pops in here to show whoever he's been talking to an example of what they've been talking about. That would explain the disjointed nature of his posts. Folks here see his post and go "WTF??" out loud here. He rarely takes time to engage anyone here in any form of banter because that's not his purpose here. He's mainly using the forum for a whiteboard. That's the way it seems to me, at any rate.
Pretty much the way it went else where.
Quote from: glens on September 25, 2011, 02:12:24 PM
Steve, I think I've figured out what's going on. Andy discusses this stuff privately, or at least off the (this) forum, and merely pops in here to show whoever he's been talking to an example of what they've been talking about. That would explain the disjointed nature of his posts. Folks here see his post and go "WTF??" out loud here. He rarely takes time to engage anyone here in any form of banter because that's not his purpose here. He's mainly using the forum for a whiteboard. That's the way it seems to me, at any rate.
Yep. I noticed that also. Between the phone calls to me, then others and then the dis-jointed posts. It is what it is, and I deal with it. Sort of like putting a puzzle together.
It is times like these that I am glad Andy talked me into buying the TTS, not the PV.
Yes, I talk with Andy offline too.
He is a good tuner.
Here is a cool log. This is a friend on a 3 hour ride thru the mountains. The bike is running totally open loop. As you go from the bottom of the plot to the trace, you are later in the ride. Most of the riding was between 45 and 55 MPH. Check out how the tune is changing as indicated by the blue areas that develop and then fade away. Also notice that the barometer reading is stair stepped in a huge way. I wonder if the bike went over a few cliffs that show up as a instant change in elevation. At about 7500 sec you can see where he descended a huge hill that the the barometer correction appeared to have missed. I wonder what happened there. Note that this motor normally idles at about 35 KPA.
http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/MountianPass.JPG (http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/MountianPass.JPG)
Way cool stuff
Beast
Now, I'm really confused. How is the ECM getting the baro data while running?
Looks like this program makes things up as it goes to look cool...
Does any one else here use it aside from Andy and Sporty ?? Just asking... :nix:
Quote from: hrdtail78 on September 27, 2011, 07:30:29 AM
Now, I'm really confused. How is the ECM getting the baro data while running?
It grabs the value from the map sensor at key on, then will continue to update it when at or near anticipated 0" manifold vacuum as long as the engine is running. The map value read by the sensor at or near WOT will match the current baro, and the ECM updates accordingly.
Quote from: blusmbl on September 27, 2011, 03:43:51 PM
Quote from: hrdtail78 on September 27, 2011, 07:30:29 AM
Now, I'm really confused. How is the ECM getting the baro data while running?
It grabs the value from the map sensor at key on, then will continue to update it when at or near anticipated 0" manifold vacuum as long as the engine is running. The map value read by the sensor at or near WOT will match the current baro, and the ECM updates accordingly.
Thanks,
How often do you open the throttle wide(-enough) descending a large hill?
Quote from: HV on September 27, 2011, 03:01:52 PM
Looks like this program makes things up as it goes to look cool...
Does any one else here use it aside from Andy and Sporty ?? Just asking... :nix:
I use it, but I rarely manipulate data. You can create new fields based on present ones, doing math and other things with the data. Like for instance you could question the 1-2 volts (or whatever) range on the O2 sensor traces and try showing a trace with the voltage divided by 2, or with 0.8 volts subtracted from it, etc. I'm quite sure Andy's custom fields are numerous and quite extensive/complicated. Look how he smooths things out...
It really is a powerful tool, but I'm not convinced it's appropriate to use much of the extra power for our application at least.
I will say that I often set upper/lower limits for values. Like, it's much easier to scrutinize the O2 voltage swings when their "normal" operational values nearly fill the graph top-to-bottom. Or set the MAP range from 0 to 105 so that anywhere you look you can tell at a glance about what it was. Normally, (I believe Steve's does this, too) the graph upper/lower limits are set to what the maximum/minimum values were in the log.
Quote from: glens on September 27, 2011, 04:37:34 PM
How often do you open the throttle wide(-enough) descending a large hill?
Quote from: HV on September 27, 2011, 03:01:52 PM
Looks like this program makes things up as it goes to look cool...
Does any one else here use it aside from Andy and Sporty ?? Just asking... :nix:
I use it, but I rarely manipulate data. You can create new fields based on present ones, doing math and other things with the data. Like for instance you could question the 1-2 volts (or whatever) range on the O2 sensor traces and try showing a trace with the voltage divided by 2, or with 0.8 volts subtracted from it, etc. I'm quite sure Andy's custom fields are numerous and quite extensive/complicated. Look how he smooths things out...
It really is a powerful tool, but I'm not convinced it's appropriate to use much of the extra power for our application at least.
I will say that I often set upper/lower limits for values. Like, it's much easier to scrutinize the O2 voltage swings when their "normal" operational values nearly fill the graph top-to-bottom. Or set the MAP range from 0 to 105 so that anywhere you look you can tell at a glance about what it was. Normally, (I believe Steve's does this, too) the graph upper/lower limits are set to what the maximum/minimum values were in the log.
If and when you try to manipulate data you better have a damn good understanding of how the system that sent the data works and a damn good understanding of how the system that captures the data works. You cannot just manipulate the data to make it fit what you think it should look like. Setting limits to expand a given area is not going to change the data and it can be of some help at times to a more advanced user but for the normal guy out there trying to tune his bike its going to do nothing but cause him more issues than he had to start with.
Our trace line graph auto scales each item to the upper and lower values found in the recording.
The guys at PowerVision noticed that these bike have trouble holding AFRs on long rides. The widebands running open loop made the issue quite easy to document. This is all stuff that very hard to find on a dyno but jumps out at you with the right tools.
Beast
This data file is one I sent to Andy last night. This is a log file that went for 2.8 hours and started out at Cash Creek BC and along Highway 99 toward Whistler BC. Starting elevation 1600 ft high point 4190 feet descending to 670 feet. I was looking through the file and saw it lean out at elevation and fatten up as I got lower This is something that I do not think could be identified on a dyno unless you had a barrow chamber to simulate high altitude. There is about a six min. period of idleing at the 3700 ft mark while my riding friend was taking pictures of Duffy lake. The data log ends the town of Pemberton BC at 700 ft elevation. The decent was was about 9 miles to the low point near Lillioot Lake. Check it out on google earth. I would post it here but the file is 3700kb and I do not have time right now to set it up on another web page.
I only data logged during the hottest weather, never really finished the tune because it cooled off.
The VE's are probably not too far off spot on.
With the cooler weather the open loop tune has richened up, the pipe sounds deeper, so very happy with the tune.
To me this has been very simple.
Still looking for more power though, here and there.
Quote from: cts1950 on September 27, 2011, 06:21:21 PM
I was looking through the file and saw it lean out at elevation and fatten up as I got lower
This is great news. Doing exactly what it's supposed to do. So if I set targeted at elevation of 400, (on dyno) that same target will be hit for say 1300.
Quote from: cts1950 on September 27, 2011, 06:21:21 PM
Starting elevation 1600 ft high point 4190 feet descending to 670 feet... The data log ends the town of Pemberton BC at 700 ft elevation.
Why does the barometer trace look upside down from what you describe? It should be the highest at the lowest elevations, not the other way around...
Can't Andy host the file for you? What device did you use to capture it?
Quote from: glens on September 27, 2011, 06:30:16 PM
Why does the barometer trace look upside down from what you describe? It should be the highest at the lowest elevations, not the other way around...
Can't Andy host the file for you? What device did you use to capture it?
I think that log stopped at at close to the highest elevation and never recorded the majority of the decent. I have not proved it yet so I never brought it up. I use ride logger software on my cell phone to sync that sort of thing but cts1950 was not running that software at the time.
3700 ft where he was idling works out to about 88 KPA per
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/air-altitude-pressure-d_462.html (http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/air-altitude-pressure-d_462.html)
Beast
I got the PowerVision widebands running on the Sporty today. This is the first log of the tune I did using just the stock narrow bands and MLVHD. So far I am quite happy with the results.
On the right is the target AFRs and on the left is the actual AFRs that is showing up at the exhaust. Keep in mind that with this configuration, I am running 100% open loop.
http://www.ncs-stl.com/PVTune/WidebandSporty01.jpg (http://www.ncs-stl.com/PVTune/WidebandSporty01.jpg)
Have fun tuning.
Beast
now that's cool. :up:
Best meaning of those charts would be derived by the ability to overlay them and toggle which one's on top [alt+tab]. Looks like there are plenty of lean holes and rich hills from here.
Mayor, bear in mind that any of Andy's charts you see with data called *PV, it's data he's manipulated (or at least directed MLV to manipulate) in some fashion... In order to be able to even begin to analyze these charts we need to know what the exact nature of that manipulation was.
Quote from: glens on September 29, 2011, 05:09:52 AM
Mayor, bear in mind that any of Andy's charts you see with data called *PV, it's data he's manipulated (or at least directed MLV to manipulate) in some fashion... In order to be able to even begin to analyze these charts we need to know what the exact nature of that manipulation was.
it's not data extracted from the PV system? :scratch:
It is a date trace that I in some way did did filtering on. In the case of WidebandAfrRr, I throw out AFR data when the AE or DE is active. If you want to use the word manipulated....
RpmPV happens to be the average of the last five RPM records. If the RPM data stream changes every 8 records, you get a smoothed trace.
If you import my TTS.settings file, all of the calcs are exposed and unprotected so manipulate them as you desire for your installation. There is nothing secret here at all.
Here is a link to the we page that talks about the MLV math parser.
http://www.efianalytics.com/MegaLogViewer/formulas.html (http://www.efianalytics.com/MegaLogViewer/formulas.html)
Beast
Where can one obtain a copy of your "my TTS.settings file"?
http://www.ncs-stl.com/PVTune/ (http://www.ncs-stl.com/PVTune/)
Quote from: whittlebeast on September 29, 2011, 06:38:53 AM
It is a date trace that I in some way did did filtering on. In the case of WidebandAfrRr, I throw out AFR data when the AE or DE is active. If you want to use the word manipulated....
Since we now know that the PV systems creates data entries that are not coming from the ECM you need to start by removing all of those or the data plots will show things that are NOT really there. Looking at the raw data log files some assumptions are going to have to be made but a good starting point would be to understand that the ECM only sends the data out each time it gets requested not the same one over and over again.
RpmPV happens to be the average of the last five RPM records. If the RPM data stream changes every 8 records, you get a smoothed trace.
Since we now know that the PV systems creates data entries that are not coming from the ECM you need to start by removing all of those or the data plots will show things that are NOT really there. Looking at the raw data log files some assumptions are going to have to be made but a good starting point would be to understand that the ECM only sends the RPM out each time it gets requested not the same one over and over again. Just using a running average over it isn't what is truely happening!
If you import my TTS.settings file, all of the calcs are exposed and unprotected so manipulate them as you desire for your installation. There is nothing secret here at all.
Here is a link to the we page that talks about the MLV math parser.
http://www.efianalytics.com/MegaLogViewer/formulas.html (http://www.efianalytics.com/MegaLogViewer/formulas.html)
Beast
You cannot do just a simple filter to get back to the real raw data that was sent by the ECM so one needs to be very careful due to the way that the PV is making up data that did not come from the ECM.
I was messing with my tune yesterday with the widebands on the Sporty. This is now how I am using MLV HD to look at the data
coming off the PowerVision. Notice that the colors indicate percent change to get the Actual AFR to match the Target AFR.
http://www.ncs-stl.com/PVTune/WideBandPctChange.jpg (http://www.ncs-stl.com/PVTune/WideBandPctChange.jpg)
The advantage with wideband tuning is that you can do tuning with the final Target AFRs as opposed to having to do all tuning in
closed loop and close to 14.6 AFR
The red areas in this trace are lean by more than 10% I will multiply the VEs in those areas by 1.1 The blue areas are too fat by
3% so I will multiply those by .97 Green is near perfect.
I updated the PowerVision.settings file posted on my file server. Most of the changes were done on the settings and formulas
required to understand wideband logs.
Have fun tuning
Beast
Quote from: whittlebeast on October 02, 2011, 08:59:33 AM
The advantage with wideband tuning is that you can do tuning with the final Target AFRs as opposed to having to do all tuning in closed loop and close to 14.6 AFR
... Green is near perfect.
I thought that the broadbands in your setup was only an advantage if you could trust the sensor accuracy enough, otherwise what you are analyzing is just an approximation, right? Isn't any "perfect" tune in reference to imperfect data suspect? I dunno, maybe I'm old school, but garbage data in does not magically change by using perfect data analysis.... there is always some uncertainty... or is this some kind of new math? What is your estimate of uncertainty using this method?
Quote from: yositime on October 02, 2011, 09:39:40 AM
I thought that the broadbands in your setup was only an advantage if you could trust the sensor accuracy enough, otherwise what you are analyzing is just an approximation, right? Isn't any "perfect" tune in reference to imperfect data suspect? I dunno, maybe I'm old school, but garbage data in does not magically change by using perfect data analysis.... there is always some uncertainty... or is this some kind of new math? What is your estimate of uncertainty using this method?
What degree of certainty have you had on any tuning method that you have had available to you in the last thirty years? This is the best method I have found to be available for a home to date. I do trust it far more than I trust any local dealer with his dyno. When a better one evolves, I will most likely try that.
Have fun tuning.
Beast
This is what things look like in a speed density presentation.
Tuned with only the use of the stock narrow bands.....
http://www.ncs-stl.com/PVTune/WidebandSporty01.jpg (http://www.ncs-stl.com/PVTune/WidebandSporty01.jpg)
After a day of playing with the wide band setup....
http://www.ncs-stl.com/PVTune/WidebandSporty02.jpg (http://www.ncs-stl.com/PVTune/WidebandSporty02.jpg)
Beast
Good news and bad news.....
Phil, the guy the writes the MLV HD software, was flat too buried with other projects to get around to releasing
a truly new release of the software. The good news is that if you update the software, it will no linger pop up
the whineware that it will time out in XX days. The new beta version expiration date is now in January. This version
is still free to download and use.
Have fun tuning
Beast
This stuff is really working cool on the rice bikes running pc5 with the wideband option.
On the left is is the Alpha-N tuning and on the right is the Speed Density trace. I an running my bike AN under 1800 RPM and SD above 1800. Way cool stuff. The bike dialed right in.
http://www.ncs-stl.com/pc5wb/PC5WB_AfrScatterCompare.jpg (http://www.ncs-stl.com/pc5wb/PC5WB_AfrScatterCompare.jpg)
Beast
Quote from: whittlebeast on October 02, 2011, 10:17:19 AM
This is the best method I have found to be available for a home to date.
You must not be looking that hard... but you sure are having fun with theory... :)
Good Point, are we as a group reaching out to help others just a little?
There is this lovely young lady with a Sportster that could use a little tuning help.
Am I too proud to reach out a hand of help to the sweet young thing? Andy helps anyone.
Quote from: yositime on October 18, 2011, 04:34:27 PM
Quote from: whittlebeast on October 02, 2011, 10:17:19 AM
This is the best method I have found to be available for a home to date.
You must not be looking that hard... but you sure are having fun with theory... :)
Quote from: yositime on October 18, 2011, 04:34:27 PM
Quote from: whittlebeast on October 02, 2011, 10:17:19 AM
This is the best method I have found to be available for a home to date.
You must not be looking that hard... but you sure are having fun with theory... :)
Do you tune on a dyno?
If so, do you lease the tuning package that you use on your dyno?
How do you deal with tuning in the AFRs when the traction control/torque control/wheelie control logic designed into the stock ECU when the VE tables are based on TPS?
How do you model/simulate motor cooling and airflow around the motor on a dyno?
Have fun tuning
Beast
Do you tune on a dyno?
If so, do you lease the tuning package that you use on your dyno?
How do you deal with tuning in the AFRs when the traction control/torque control/wheelie control logic designed into the stock ECU when the VE tables are based on TPS?
How do you model/simulate motor cooling and airflow around the motor on a dyno?
Have fun tuning
Beast
[/quote]
Harleys have traction control/torque control/wheelie control built into the ecm?
Have you looked in the data for the torque control?
I am disappointed, I thought maybe that is why I could not wheelie as the wheelie control was activiated lol.
You have got to be kidding. You guys are freek'n killing me.
Quote from: Steve Cole on October 19, 2011, 08:32:28 AM
Quote from: Jeffd link=topic=39234.msg460585#
Harleys have traction control/torque control/wheelie control built into the ecm?
Only Electronic Throttle Control (DBW) bikes have torque limiting, no traction control, no wheelie control. It just seems when some people need to type something, things get made up. :fish: Some HD models even have ABS systems too.
So how is traction control / wheelie control / and torque control different?
The Yamaha appears to follow a predetermined allowable map load at each RPM limiting torque by gear. So how does Harley do it?
Andy, you have a ricer.
Harleys are fluffy, do not need wheelie or traction control, they only need brake control during panic stops.
Only time the front end lifted on the Sporty was when 2 dogs scared the poo out of me by trying to bite my leg, kind of rushed a shift in my hurry to depart the area.
So how do you guys determine the difference between a very poor designed air cleaner or it it is torque control biting your tune on a DBW ride?
What do you guys accept as a reasonable pressure drop across an air filter?
Just asking questions...
Beast
Quote from: whittlebeast on October 19, 2011, 09:06:34 AM
Quote from: Steve Cole on October 19, 2011, 08:32:28 AM
Quote from: Jeffd link=topic=39234.msg460585#
Harleys have traction control/torque control/wheelie control built into the ecm?
Only Electronic Throttle Control (DBW) bikes have torque limiting, no traction control, no wheelie control. It just seems when some people need to type something, things get made up. :fish: Some HD models even have ABS systems too.
So how is traction control / wheelie control / and torque control different?
IMHO There is no such thing as wheelie control, I've watched and ridden plenty of bikes both HD's and ricers, early and late model and when you want to pull the front end up they will all do it, in various amounts. In order to prevent it, the bike would need to be equipped with a level sensor to tell when the front wheel was in the air. The the code would have to be able to tell the difference from going up hill or down hill as well.
Traction control is just that, code that is able to tell when the wheels are slipping and then adjust either the brakes, power output or both to control the slip. It requires at least wheel speed sensors on all wheels.
Torque control is just that too. The ECM limits or controls the max torque output through the use of various methods. Three completely different things that do different things.
Ever ridden a BMW S1000RR?
It works.
QuoteIMHO There is no such thing as wheelie control,
the Aprilia RSV4 R APRC has a wheelie control unit, among other things
QuoteAWC: stability at top acceleration
Exploiting the full power of modern superbikes down to the very last HP is every rider's dream. Aprilia's AWC (Aprilia Wheelie Control) has achieved extraordinary results. Thanks to the exclusive Aprilia patented Wheelie Detection System, the AWC is able to “tell†when a wheelie begins and ends and kicks in to smoothen wheel contact with the road. Smooth, soft wheelie management avoids harsh power cuts or pick-up, providing perfect acceleration control. The AWC system is activated from the instrument panel and can be adjusted independently from other control systems choosing from three settings to better meet rider requirements.
Quote from: brunothedog on October 20, 2011, 02:57:39 PM
QuoteIMHO There is no such thing as wheelie control,
the Aprilia RSV4 R APRC has a wheelie control unit, among other things
QuoteAWC: stability at top acceleration
Exploiting the full power of modern superbikes down to the very last HP is every rider's dream. Aprilia's AWC (Aprilia Wheelie Control) has achieved extraordinary results. Thanks to the exclusive Aprilia patented Wheelie Detection System, the AWC is able to “tell†when a wheelie begins and ends and kicks in to smoothen wheel contact with the road. Smooth, soft wheelie management avoids harsh power cuts or pick-up, providing perfect acceleration control. The AWC system is activated from the instrument panel and can be adjusted independently from other control systems choosing from three settings to better meet rider requirements.
So it doesn't stop the wheelie, from how that description sounds, but helps control how it is going to let the front wheel back onto the pavement. Since they went and got a patent for it I bet they got plenty of processor power just for that one device. It would be interesting to find out what sensors they added to get it all to work.
So how does Harley do their torque control? Timing, DBW override....
Why is it there? To protect the motor from detonation or to protect Harley from lawyers and customers with poor judgement?
What is the accepted method for beating it?
Beast
The only thing I have seen in DBW is the gearing/ speed control. Won't let you pull to redline in 6th gear.
If you know how to wheelie, you can wheelie about any motorcycle. I rode a new K1600GT beemer. Traction control on and off. Way to foreign for me to get crazy on that thing, but if I had it a couple of days.....
Quote from: whittlebeast on October 21, 2011, 07:08:24 AM
So how does Harley do their torque control? Timing, DBW override....
Why is it there? To protect the motor from detonation or to protect Harley from lawyers and customers with poor judgement?
What is the accepted method for beating it?
Beast
maybe to protect the crank from twisting.
Here is how my first stab at tuning a PC5 with data logging LCD and a wideband came. I went to tuning with a combination of Speed Density and Alpha-N tuning maps. The bike now feels like the motor is electric and is extremely linear throughout the entire rev range. Note that the entire map is up side down so that the map looks like it does on the tuning screen. On the left is the actual AFR as reported every 1/10 sec resolution. On the right is the target AFR for comparison.
You can clearly see in this trace how the wheelie/torque control holds the MAP to 94 KPA even though the local baro was right at 100 KPA today.
http://www.ncs-stl.com/pc5wb/SpeedDensity_AFR.bmp (http://www.ncs-stl.com/pc5wb/SpeedDensity_AFR.bmp)
Have fun tuning.
Beast
I nailed the tune on the rice bike....
http://www.ncs-stl.com/pc5wb/AN_vs_SD.bmp (http://www.ncs-stl.com/pc5wb/AN_vs_SD.bmp)
This is both the Speed Density and the Alpha-N maps of the same hour long ride. I have been using both maps simultaneously to dial in the tune. it just depends what map makes it easier to get to an issue.
Beast