HarleyTechTalk

DISCLAIMER: THIS IS A REPRINT TOPIC FROM "OLD" HTT

I have saved many great topical discussions as "links" over the years and would hate to see these lost, so I am reprinting this TOPIC here @ OLSTONEY'S REQUEST, which may "perhaps" help some.

TOPIC:  LET'S TALK ABOUT FXR GEARING  06-04-08


From: olstoney2 [Buddy WMC] (Original Message) Sent: 6/4/2008 5:05 AM

Need some input guys,

After my 85" engine build with the increased power, the low (3.37) factory gearing 24T engine, 37T clutch basket, 32T trans and 70T rear has got to go. I did install a 33T trans pulley awhile back and achieved a slight rpm drop. With that combo, the final drive dropped to 3.27 or so.

I could not fit a 34T trans pulley as the belt adjustment (fairly new belt), is all the way forward. The other alternative was to grind the slots in the frame to achieve more forward movement. I am unwilling to modify a cherry FXR frame. I'm willing to give up some light to light performance to achieve a lower Interstate cruising rpm.

Here are the options I came up with:

(1) Install a 32T trans pulley and 65T rear pulley. The final drive would be about 3.15 about he same as the 34T/70T combo.

(2) Keep the current 33T trans and go with the 65T rear. The final drive would be about 3.08, maybe too high?

I understand that I'll have to buy a new belt, but am not sure about what tooth count to buy. I do have a new 32T BDL trans pulley and new 65T HD rear pulley on the shelf new.

Any opinions on which way to go, or other options would be appreciated.

I'm trying to drop the rpm's at higher Interstate speeds. My bike is a 93 FXLR and with the stock gearing, the bike turns over 3200 @ 70mph. The club I ride with routinely packs at 80-85mph, so I'm really winding the engine at those speeds up to keep up with the pack.

The change to the 33T trans dropped the rpm's about 150, not much. My newly upgraded engine has an 85" Revolution Performance big bore kit at 10.5 to 1 compression, ported Screamin Eagle heads, V-Thunder EVL-5015 cam at .585 lift, V-Thunder lifters, SE pushrods and an S&S Super E. I'm in the process of breaking the engine in now and coudn't be happier with the performance.

My research has revealed that I can't change the primary gearing due to the pin count on the primary chain, so I must retain the 24T engine and 37T clutch basket. Changing the secondary ratio seems to be my only option. That's why I'm seeking opinions and advice.

"Oldgoat" States~~~

I just got my 91 FXRT back on the road after quite a few motor mods.  I am currently running a 32/65 combo.  The stock belt had enough adjustment, it is not quite all the way back in the slot.  I am still turning about 3600 at 78-80MPH.  I am thinking about trying an Andrews 33 tooth pulley with the 65 rear. 

I plan on putting an Ultima 6 speed in next winter, would like to get by this year with the 33/65. 

I bought a BDL 34 tooth pulley before I read several posts here that the BDL pulleys were soft and wear out quickly.   

ClassicRider2002 States~~~

Here is the stock set up on my 1999 FXR2 for gear ratios and part numbers that relate to this gearing....essentially 6 parts make up the gearing....I also have included my stock 2002 RKC gearing and part numbers, see how closely they match to the 1999 FXR, I am in the process of changing my 2002 RKC stock gearing of 3.15 back to the 2001 EFI gearing that was used on the touring bikes which is 3.37 gearing and thus am showing those part numbers as well.

So humor me and explain what is your goal/objective with your gearing what are you experiencing right now that you dislike and what would you like to accomplish.
 
Gear Ratios

1999 FXR2 2.92 Gearing

   Gear   Gear Ratios

1  9.39  (9.388)
2  6.46  (6.461)
3  4.60  (4.599)
4  3.59  (3.586)
5  2.92  (2.925)

1)       HD# 37707-98A  36 Tooth Clutch Shell Basket W/ Ring Gear
2)       HD# 40308-94    25 Tooth Compensating Sprocket
3)       HD# 40250-94A  32 Tooth Transmission Sprocket
4)       HD# 40311-94    65 Tooth Rear Wheel Sprocket
5)       HD# 40015-90    133 Tooth Rear Belt
6)       HD# 37550-98    Clutch Hub
7)       HD# 40037-79A  Primary Chain


2002 Stock RKC 3.15 Gearing

Gear     Gear Ratios

1          10.11
2            6.96
3            4.95
4            3.86
5            3.15


1)   HD# 37707-98A  36 Tooth Clutch Shell Basket W/ Ring Gear
2)   HD# 40308-94     25 Tooth Compensating Sprocket
3)   HD# 40250-94B  32 Tooth Transmission Sprocket
4)   HD# 40217-00     70 Tooth Rear Wheel Sprocket
5)   HD#  40024-97    139 Tooth Rear Belt
6)   HD# 37550-98     Clutch Hub
7)   HD# 40037-79A   Primary Chain


2002 RKC     3.37 Gearing

Gear      Gear Ratios

1          10.81
2            7.45
3            5.29
4            4.13
5            3.37


1)   HD# 47846-99A   37 Tooth Clutch Shell Basket W/ Ring Gear
2)   HD# 40269-85A   24 Tooth Compensating Sprocket
3)   HD# 40250-94B   32 Tooth Transmission Sprocket
4)   HD# 40217-00     70 Tooth Rear Wheel Sprocket
5)   HD#  40024-97    139 Tooth Rear Belt
6)    HD# 37550-98    Clutch Hub
7)    HD# 40037-79A  Primary Chain

ClassicRider2002 states~~

olstoney2.....

(2) Keep the current 33T trans and go with the 65T rear. The final drive would be about 3.08, maybe too high?

I am quite interested in your "plight" here and what you are trying to do.....as I recently posted into another "forum" about GEARING for an FXR as well....just last nite....so this "quest" is of interest to me personally.

Your comment above, about "......maybe too high?....." is what I am trying to grasp, as to what your objective is, when you are saying that what are you thinking exactly, ..........that the bike will or will not perform __________  <~~~~how? ? ? ?   

Just to let you know how a 1999 FXR2 performs basically with a:
DSV 16525 Vance & Hines Pro Pipe 2-1
29008-90A  Evolution 1340 High Flow Air Cleaner (which I believe is now obsolete)
29580-99  Air Cleaner Insert FXR2 Template
27094-88 Jet Needle/carb needle Sportster
27170-89 45 Slow Idle Jet
3010 V~Thunder Cam

and the rest of the engine stock I have a bike that is getting roughly 50 mph on the highway at 70-75 mph.  In the mountains and in the city of course not that high.

The bike performs very well in the mountains and in the city as well.  Basically I am riding this bike in elevations between 5,000 - 9,000 100% of the time while taking it up to 12,000 Feet a few times a year.  Never has been at sea level.

Olstoney states~~

classicrider,
Thank you for your in depth post. I'm trying to drop the rpm's at higher Interstate speeds. My bike is a 93 FXLR and with the stock gearing, the bike turns over 3200 @ 70mph. The club I ride with routinely packs at 80-85mph, so I'm really winding the engine at those speeds up to keep up with the pack.

The change to the 33T trans dropped the rpm's about 150, not much. My newly upgraded engine has an 85" Revolution Performance big bore kit at 10.5 to 1 compression, ported Screamin Eagle heads, V-Thunder EVL-5015 cam at .585 lift, V-Thunder lifters, SE pushrods and an S&S Super E. I'm in the process of breaking the engine in now and coudn't be happier with the performance.

My research has revealed that I can't change the primary gearing due to the pin count on the primary chain, so I must retain the 24T engine and 37T clutch basket. Changing the secondary ratio seems to be my only option. That's why I'm seeking opinions and advice.

ClassicRider2002 States~~~

olstoney2~~~
A) I'm trying to drop the rpm's at higher Interstate speeds.
B) stock gearing, the bike turns over 3200 @ 70mph. The club I ride with routinely packs at 80-85mph, so I'm really winding the engine at those speeds up to keep up with the pack.
C) 85" Revolution Performance big bore kit at 10.5 to 1 compression, ported Screamin Eagle heads, V-Thunder EVL-5015 cam at .585 lift, V-Thunder lifters, SE pushrods and an S&S Super E.
D) The change to the 33T trans dropped the rpm's about 150, not much.  

First.....WOW!!!!!! 10.5 Compression and .585 lift.....that's alot of change from what the stock engine is like.....WOW WOW WOW.....lol

My question there if we can digress for a moment is why a .585 lift, why not more of a 570 lift....quicker grunt....isn't the .585 lift a bit more delayed....you are riding one of the litest bikes HD makes.....somewhere around 560 lbs.  You said you are happy, the work is done, your not going back, I understand....I am just curious is all....I had a 2003 Dyna Low Rider with ported heads, KB 10:1 pistons, 570 S&S cams, by the time it was finished it was at 10.5:1 compression and it was a smokin machine....I had one buddy that thought it was way tooooo much for that light of bike.....it was so much fun in a straight line.....the indy that did it was all about the 1/4 mile event...lol and tried to carry it over to my bike in some degree....the problem was...it pinged a new tune every time I rode it....eventually I tore it down and got the KB pistons out and brought the compression down to 9.5:1 compresson...pinging left and I am much happier....Wiseco 9:1 pistons....still the same cam....sold the bike then put that into my 2002 Road King Classic....and it's still fun....now I am after the gear change in the Road King Classic from 3.15 to 3.37 gearing....isn't it fascinating that our FXR set up in the primary is pretty darn close to the same as a 2002 Road King the only differences were noted above.....with the major components....

WOW .585 10.5:1 compression on your EVO engine.....LOL yep your RUNNIN HARD.....I am STILL LAUGHIN....oh my I bet your engine is screamin at 75-85 mph.....lol on that lite bike....lol

Well.....since logic is out the window here.....to change your transmission sprocket again is a bit involved.....sounds like you have maybe been in there twice already.....

I have NO IDEA if what I am going to suggest makes logical sense.....but I would change the rear wheel sprocket back to a 65 tooth.....like my stock FXR2 is currently.....the part number is above I believe it may be a "silver" cast finish but you can always put a "chrome cover over it....I am not SURE if that means changing the belt for you....or not I have listed the belt I am running along with the Transmission Sprocket above...

I am just not sure what that changes everything to when staying at 24 tooth on the compensating sprocket and 37 tooth on the clutch shell basket....for a final gearing ratio.....

What does leaving the 33 Tooth Sprocket and moving to the 65 tooth Rear Wheel Sprocket create with the 24 Compensating Sprocket and the 37 Tooth Clutch Sprocket as well?  Is there a belt that works with this combo? ? ? ?  Or do you have to change the belt the moment you change that Transmission Sprocket.....

".......My research has revealed that I can't change the primary gearing due to the pin count on the primary chain, so I must retain the 24T engine and 37T clutch basket. Obviously you don't have many options.....or I should say your options have become self limiting since you are keeping the 24......"

Actually I am not sure I am in agreemnnt with what your research has uncovered....although I do not have the liberty of looking at your actual "stock" part numbers but I am assuming that your STOCK primary part numbers for your clutch shell basket and your compensating sprocket and your PRIMARY chain are exactly the same as my 1999 FXR2.  IF and ONLY IF MY assumption is correct you can look above and see that the STOCK compensating sprocket for my FXR2 is actually a 25 Tooth and the STOCK clutch shell basket ring gear is actually 36 Tooth.  Then look carefully I WOULD ASSUME that our STOCK primary chains are the same as well meaning you can run exactly what is on the "Stock" set up on my 1999 FXR2 bringing you back to a 2.92 gearing set up.....whether this makes the best sense I am not entirely certain just yet....but if you are "screamin" down the highway in a manner that leaves you without appreciation ie: not likin it...then perhaps the 2.92 final 5th gear set up for your highway riding wouldn't be bad.....

Also on my 2002 Road King Classic when changing from the 25 Tooth Compensating Sprocket and the 36 Tooth Clutch Shell Basket ring gear to the 24 Tooth Compensating Sprocket and to the 37 Tooth Clutch Shell Basket ring gear in both bikes the primary chain is used within both set ups.....there is no change for the primary chain....So I am a bit confused by your research....You should be able to see if you have a parts book for your 1993 FXLR whether the stock numbers for the compensating sprocket, clutch shell sprocket as well as the primary chain match my 1999 FXR2 as well as matching a 2002 Road King Classic above.....The reason I know the combinations work for a 2002 Road King as well, is that the Road King is a carbed bike and in 2001 and 2002 the Road King (carb) ran a 25 tooth Compensating Sprocket and a clutch shell basket with 36 tooth ring gear with a primary chain that also fit on a 2001 Road King Classic (MM EFI) which was running a 24 tooth compensating sprocket with a clutch shell basket with 37 tooth ring gear and the VERY SAME primary chain was run in both bikes....same part number.

I am tryin to "wrap" my mind around what you have done already......tryin to figure out what your low end grunt would be like when changing and going up in higher gearing from 3.37 or so down to 2.92 or so....but I think now since your committed to your engine rebuild....your now just going have to run by the seat of your pants to see what's going to happen....ALL theory went out the window with the engine build....lol.....because you have discovered that it's not working for you as well at highway speed.....so now since you are committed to the engine mods and cam mods your left with gearing to change.....

Ok so whatcha thinkin now???

Regards,

"Classic"

unfortunately "Todd8080 quit being a member so his posts into this thread have been lost....he had some good points but keeping this thread historically valid I am still including references to his posts as they relate to this Thread.


ClassicRider2002 States~~~

Todd,

I know when you post it's important....and the Table above says a few things to me.....for example when you take 70 for the rear wheel pulley and divide it by 29 you will get 2.4138 which is what the table says is the "Secondary Ratio" but what i does "Secondary Ratio" mean...what's this information tell me? ? ?

does this table also assume that the compensating sprocket and the clutch shell basket ring gear are certain sizes....

I get that when I look at the table and see the Transmission Pully is 32 and the Rear Pulley is 65 that for some reason we get to a Over All Ratio of 2.92 for bikes 1994-2006.  I only know this because that's what my 1999 FXR2 actually has....so what am I missing to be able to use this table appropriately.....

And while if one has a 32 Transmission Pulley as well as a 70 rear wheel pulley, the table says the final gear ratio is 3.15 for 1994-2006 which is true, however a final gear ratio of 3.37 is also true if one changes the compensating sprocket and clutch shell basket ring gear while keeping the Transmission Pulley at 32 and he rear wheel pulley at 70, so how does one apply the information from this chart and use it? ? ? ? ?

I know I am missing something that's most likely "obvious" to someone else....

Regards,

"Classic"

Olstoney states~~

Guys,
I chose the V-Thunder EVL-5015 @ .585 lift cam on the recommendation of both my head porter and Comp Cams. Revolution Performance actually suggested a TR-590 that was very expensive. My head porter wfolarry (Larry's Motorcycle and Machine), a member here runs this same cam on his 89" Evo. Larry explained that the SE heads when ported flow the best at higher lifts. From the velocity we are seeing, he is absolutely correct. I also picked up the new cam without the gear from a member here at a very good price.

Classic & Todd,

I have both the BDL and Andrews charts. I have been waiting on their e-mail input on the gearing and a belt choice for over two weeks, with no replies.

Classic,
In a menner of speaking your are correct. HD changed the primary drive over in 1994. I would have to purchase a complete new system including both the inner and outer primaries and the starter drive. A very expensive proposition considering that I have a complete new E-One clutch, clutch hub, 37T clutch basket, 24T compensator assembly, primary chain and Hayden M-6 tensioner on the shelf.

I plan to install everything at once, so basically after the rebuild, my 93 has become a 2008. So, what do guys think about the 3.15 vs the 3.08 or 32/65, 33/65 combo?

ClassicRider2002 States~~

Olstoney to Classic,
In a menner of speaking your are correct. HD changed the primary drive over in 1994. I would have to purchase a complete new system including both the inner and outer primaries and the starter drive. A very expensive proposition considering that I have a complete new E-One clutch, clutch hub, 37T clutch basket, 24T compensator assembly, primary chain and Hayden M-6 tensioner on the shelf.
Ok so since your bike is a 1993 your "stock set up" is a 24 Tooth Compensating Sprocket, a 37 Tooth Clutch Shell basket, 32 Tooth Transmission Pully and a 70 Tooth Rear Wheel Sprocket.....basically what you said above.....(Sorry just not aware that 1993 had that set up stock) I thought you had "modified" your set up to that.....

Ahhhhh I am seeing a clearer picture now....so there was a huge change by HD in 1994 the last year of the FXR over to the same gearing as my 2002 RKC inclusive fo the outer primary....I am basically learning here with your help olstoney2....

So in 1993 your final gearing is 3.37 gearing.....I MISSED the key word in your first post "FACTORY" just slipped right passed me.....

So what are your RPM's with your current engine set up at 85 mph in 5th gear?


===============

I plan to install everything at once, so basically after the rebuild, my 93 has become a 2008. So, what do guys think about the 3.15 vs the 3.08 or 32/65, 33/65 combo?

To tell you the truth I am still having a hard time wrapping my mind around your engine mods....and how all of it is going to work out with new gearing....(seat of the pants feel) I get your point about trying to bring down your RPM's for highway, use, but as I asked above I would like to know what your RPM for your current set up is at 85 mph in 5th gear? ? ? ? ?

I am assuming you owned the bike for awhile with your "stock" engine and your "stock" 3.37 gearing.....? ? ? ?   I am curious if you could go back in your mind and share how that felt? ? ? ? ? ?   What was it like???   

Then you decide to do your engine modification.....so what's it feel like....besides your issues with highway riding as this is the motivation for posting I get this....but how does it feel otherwise?  When does your cam "come on" (rpm) and how does it feel....with the rest of your mods?

10.5 Compression on an evo.....lol I had that on a twin cam and it sang a tune of pinging.....but that was with a 570 cam.....at least your running a .585 lift cam.....but doesn't that come on a bit late?    I am merely curious in your "seat of the pants" feel that you have noticed...

It sounds like Todd has an idea about a 6th gear for you....for only $500.00 you might get a lot of bang for the buck.....I dunno though still sounds like a lot of money.....but heck you have already spent a lot to do your engine right? ? ? ? ? ? 

With all of that engine work I am just not sure myself (limited "shade tree" mechanic with not a big "shade tree") how changing the gearing will affect it, for better or for worse.....you know how it is you change one thing to get another.... but obviously if you change the gearing and make it "taller" you are going to affect your RPM's @ highway speeds which is what you are after....I am just not sure how it will affect what you might have been attempting to create from "light to light".....

Todd seemed to offer some insight.....he is much more qualified than me to suggest a solution that you might find satisfactory.....

Regards,

"Classic"

olstoney states~~~~

Classic,
Sounds like you're seeing the big picture now. Can't answer your question about the rpm @ 85mph, as I'm still in the break in period and not to exceed 3200rpm. To be thruthful prior to the engine build, I was too busy hanging on to be looking at the tach, but the rpm's were up there.

I'll probably need to make this conversion sooner that I had hoped. I located some loose bolts in the primary last night after finding a primary oil leak. The lower primary to engine bolt had backed out about three turns. I re torqued both front inner to engine bolts and the entire outer. Still some oil on the floor this morning, so I think the front o-ring is shot and will need to be replaced.

That means pulling the left side off, so might as well make the gearing change now while it's apart next week. Any suggestions on the 23/65 or 33/65 would really be helpful at this point. Specially on the belt tooth count, so I can get it ordered.

BTW, I've been riding for 40+ years and earplugs will not help at my age. After 40 years of listening to drag pipes, I'm already deaf (LOL)!

fxdwg rugby states~~~

Olstoney,
  When I ran with a club they traveled the same speed as yours on the highway. I have a similar build on a 1996 FXDWG dyna with 10.5-1, .10 over forged pistons with a .575 lift cam (SE-57). It has the stock gearing 3.15 and could run all day at 85-90mph and often did. I could run from Charlotte to Daytona often at 90+. The build was done at 35K miles and has 80K miles on it now. You'l be right in the sweet spot of your cam and she'll sing not scream. She wasnt the fastest from light to light, your 3.37 would do that with your new build is quick as hell, but on the highway the 3.15 would sing and pull away from my friends 3.37. My bike was dynoed at 85/85 before I went with a V&H 2-1 and a SE 44 CV. My bet is your going to be higher, who needs a Twinky!
  The 1999 Ultra I have is a 3.37 gear with a six speed is perfect in both worlds. This would be my recomendation but money matters. 3.15 is great on the highway.
BEST of Luck to you and your BRO's!

L-Bar States~~~

I suppose everyone is different but I would run 3.37 gearing all the way to 100hp and torque.  If over that I might would consider 3.15 or somewhere in the 3.20ish area. Just my opinion.

From: baldoldfxr Sent: 6/6/2008 1:51 PM
Im using a 32 front & 65 rear pulleys on a slightly tuned 86 fxr using the original 133 tooth belt used up almost all of the adjustment on the swingarm lots but it does fit ,
& works well .

From: olstoney2 Sent: 6/6/2008 2:40 PM

Thanks for the replies guys!!

Classic,
Just for $hits & Giggles I broke the manufacturers break in recommendations this morning. Took her up to 85mph for a short while as the word was out the cops were working radar on that stretch of road, so didn't want to risk the ticket.

With the 34T engine/37T clutch basket/33T trans and 70T rear in 5th gear, the tach read just shy of 3900 rpm's. The engine was still pulling extremely hard before I backed off on the throttle. With the power on tap, my gut feeling is I'll have no problem pulling a higher final drive ratio.

The question now becomes 32/65 or 33/65 and I need to buy a belt. Anyone have a good source other than HD?

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 6/6/2008 3:57 PM
Olstoney2.....

Ok so at 85 mph your @ slightly less than 3900 RPM, based upon my calculations you should have been around 3857 but we are splitting hairs....

Ok so I am "jumping" back into this discussion as I feel now I would probably have some legitmacy do so.....as I said above I was having a hard time wrapping my mind around your engine build and how that would affect everything.....but I am ok now...

Here is what you will gain by dropping your rear sprocket to 65T and running approximately 3.15 gearing....

MPH     RPM     Gearing
85          3857      3.37
85          3600      3.15

So you will lower your RPM by aprx  257 rpm

Now here is the funny thing.....take a look at this:

MPH      RPM     Gearing
80          3600      3.37

So basically you are saying you "theoretically" that you might be happy with a 257 rpm reduction and you would be @ peace....lol you know what I mean you would be happy.

However if you were to follow Todd's logic above....and I have no idea what it takes to put a 6th gear in....but he mentions $500.00 and an afternoon and you will end up with your 1993 FXLR Low Rider Custom running in a 6th gear at 90 MPH @ around 3200 rpm.....Now if we took your 3.37 gearing and you were running 3200 rpm you would be at 71 mph.  With 3.15 gearing you would be at 76 mph.

So now let's go back to your logic here for awhile, why did you change your engine....was it to get more lower end torque or to go at higher speeds, meaning you wanted a top speed of 120 mph for example.....

This get's us back to the question for your engine mods....only after you make this decision or understand what you were trying to do will you make a good decision about your gearing.....if you were after more "torque" from light to light and you modify it with gearing back to a more comfortable highway speed....it just doesn't make sense.....as you are only gaining 5 mph more by changing the rear sprocket to 65 ie: 3.15 gearing @ 85 mph is 3600 and 3.37 gearing @ 80 mph  is 3630.

Now if you did what Todd suggested in doing you would pick up a whole lot of benefit....I am just not "clear" on whether how that would change the other 5 gears.....or if he is simply saying you keep everything the same and add 1 more "6th" gear.....which gives you that 3200 RPM @ 90 mph.  That gear however, would only be used in those cases where you were going at a minimum of 80 or more....and I would think it would be pretty "gutless" with passing or performance.....it's geared so high....I guess that would depend on your cam.....now we are getting a little farther from my "Shade Tree" and I am getting sunburned....lol.....

An additional point even with 3.15 gearing @ 90 MPH you are going to be running 3820 RPM....so you are running where you already feel the need to change from...and if you think about it all of your riding "bros" are pushing similar RPM's....not saying that you should or should worry about what they are running...but it's just a statement of interest.

What I mentioned above asking Todd about recalibrating the SPEEDO isn't accurate since on the FXR's it's on measured at the Front wheel not like my Road King Classic where it is measured at the transmission....(a moment of mental relapse, lol).

Here is where your limiting factor may play...if you are riding with guys all riding with bikes with 5 gallon tanks and you are riding with one at 4.2 gallon and your riding at a higher RPM that means your burning more fuel....which means you could be on the end of causing everyone to have to get fuel sooner than they are ready....which maybe speaks to that 6th gear solution again.....had you thought about that?

If it were me, I would continue to run what you are running for awhile without getting caught up in the changes and see how everything works out....my question is seriously just what percentage of the day(s) are you and your "bros" absolutely running 90 mph?

I mean you going through a lot to change 250 rpm's....and for what percentage of driving time....

Regards,

"Classic"

From: olstoney2 Sent: 6/6/2008 6:17 PM
O.K. Guys,

I'll admit that I'm not a master mechanic or fabricator, but do enjoy working on the bike. So let's now consider the six speed as Todd suggests, what else would need to be changed?

Todd, from your pics looks like the trap door is thicker. If so, that in itself will cause fitment issues with the conventional FXR rear exhaust mounting bracket and spacer. I also possibly see issues with the FXR clutch cover that has is it's own distinct part number and cable exit positioning. I am assuming correctly that the stock 5th gear would stay in the old case, the new 5th gear with the new case and will my existing clutch assembly fit?

This is uncharted territory as I know really nothing in the transmission realm. I'm just trying to gather the best information to be able to make the best decision. If this is the way to go and it will work, then it's time to sell some parts, save some cash and drop the rpm's.

From: olstoney2 Sent: 6/8/2008 5:36 AM

Classic and Todd,
Thanks for the replies and photos. A six speed could be in the future, but I certainly would not like to have to purchase that fifth gear tool for perhaps a one time job. My only other concern is the modifications needed to fit a rear stock exhaust bracket, or the already small rear bracket from the Python III's.

For the time being I'll probably go with the 32/65 combo to get at least some relief and start saving some $$$ for the six speed.

Todd,
Where should I look for the best pricing on either the complete trans or gearset and how do I post photos? I'm told the files are too large.

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 6/8/2008 8:29 AM

open up the file where your photos are, without displaying your photo, right click over your photo you will see a pop up box displayed, one of the options you will see is "open with" use your curser to highlight "open with", another pop up box will be displayed with a chronological list, depending on the age of your computer/software you may see as one of the choices, you may see "Microsoft Office Picture Manager" if you do see this as an option move your curser over this choice and click on it. Your photo will appear inside of Microsoft Office Picture Manager now go up to the tool bar and click on "Picture" you will have a drop down menu appear and click on "Resize" this will cause your photo to appear in the box smaller while on the left side providing you with resize settings. Next click on the circle in front of Percentage of original width x height:  You will see 100% with an up arrow and a down arrow next to it, and below that you will see Size setting summary with an original size xxxx X xxxx pixels as you click on the down arrow next to where the 100% is you will see that it reduces the size of the photo creating a "New Size:  showing you the new pixels xxx X xxx.  Your goal is to get those pixels down to around 700 for the first number while the second number will be a relationship to that number....if that makse sense....notice you may have started with your photo being 2500 x 1900 as an example so you are reducing it quite a bit.....NEXT click on the box that says "OK" now...go over and click on File in the right hand corner....another pop up box will appear and choose "SAVE AS" wherever your current photo is located on your computer it will be saved in the same spot so for example if your photo is being saved on your desktop it will save the "new resized" photo on the desktop as well. On this pop up window you will then have the opportunity to rename this current photo you have just "resized" I typically just keep the same name with two letters at the end "rs" which to me means I have resized it and can more easily send it to others via e~mail or put it here in HTT if I so desired.  THEN when you are finished with the photo and the particular photo that's in the Microsoft Office Picture Manager and you click on finished it will say you haven't saved the PHOTO which while you have minuplated it by resizing it...it says you haven't saved it....click on DON'T SAVE IF you desire to keep the photo as original before you resized it.  After doing this you will have two different sizes of the same photo, the original, and the one you resized.

Now when it's time to bring over your photos to HTT you will have two options to do so, either by placing your photo like Todd has done above where it appears inside the box or you can "attach" the photo and other's can click on it.  There are benefits to both.....

Hopefully this helps.....if you don't have Microsoft Office Picture Manager...then lol I just waisted typing all of the above, and then you will have to find which "basic" software you have on your computer to manipulate your photo files...but the concepts will be the same.....

Regards,

"Classic"

From: 1992Fatty Sent: 6/9/2008 12:00 PM

For photoediting i found a good freebie called Paint.net Check it out at http://www.getpaint.net/
Very easy to use IMHO. Kent

From: olstoney2 Sent: 6/11/2008 4:32 AM

Classic,
Thanks for posting the chart on your thread, perhaps you could post it here as well. Seems like if I went with the 33T/65? combo I'd be at 3.08 and maybe not too tall. Right between your current 2.92 and the later 3.15. What do you think now? I've got to make some type of change fairly soon. My primary leak turned out to be the inner to engine o-ring.

She's coming apart today to repair that. All I need is an accurate belt tooth count to go 32?65 ot 33/65 and I can make the swap.

[NOTE: Please remember that putting your curser next to the paper clip icon below the photo will allow you to enlarge the photo plus save it to your computer if you desire OR if you merely wish to see it enlarged simply put your curser on the photo and "LEFT" click and it will enlarge]

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From: Fuzznut5197 Sent: 6/11/2008 6:31 AM

Don't you also need a puller/installer for the inner primary bearing race that's pressed on to the mainshaft?

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 6/11/2008 9:28 AM

Classic,

Thanks welcome for putting the chart together. From looking at this it does not seem that the 33T trans/65T rear at 3.08 would be too tall. I totally agree with you....Fits right between tour 2.92 and the later 3.15. What do you think now?   

olstoney.....
Well let's review.....you are limited by your bike's parts and how they go together....as what will work in a 1994 or a 1999 FXR will not work in your bike because of some additional changes dealing with what's coming in from the clutch....I believe you articulated this earlier....something to do with your reserach talking about some potential "starter" issues if you attempt to make "wholesale" changes with the inner workings of your primary.....

So as we have been discussing above you have basically 6 key areas that will deal with how one's bike will be geared and affect one's riding enjoyment.....:
1) compensating sprocket tooth size
2) clutch shell basket w/ring gear tooth tooth size
3) transmission pulley
4) rear wheel sprocket
5) rear wheel tire size (to a small degree)
6) includes the primary chain and rear sprocket drive belt that is able to run all of these "gears"
7) of course your tansmission as well....

But from a price point perspective.....all of the above have certain prices associated with them, some are easily acquired previously owned and gently used while others must be purchased new.....so it comes down to an element of enconmics as well....how do you get what you are looking for, with the least amount of expense....

I am lacking the knowledge to know how one calculates these gearing numbers ie: 3.08 vs 3.15....I don't know the math for doing that....would love to know it...but at the end of the day I can apply what the gearing ratio means to rpms which then gives us an impression for what one is interested in accomplishing, ultimately being "seat of the pants feel" <~~~~~it always comes down to this anyway right?  lol....

So because I lack the skill necessary to help you to figure out how one reaches the final gearing number of 3.08 let's assume you have that knowledge and you are correct.....It seems you are correct anyway or I am sure Todd would have jumped in to offer another alternative to getting your gearing taller and it seems his thoughts were oriented towards changing the transmission to some degree.....but that involves more effort money and time....

The difference between 3.08 and 3.15 is like a quarter of 1% so there is just no difference it just means that within the limitations of how HD designed your bike, if one such as yourself was or is so motivated to make your gears taller this is the combination that works.. based upon the parts and combinations of those parts and how they all interrelate.....So....essentially you are going to be able to raise your gearing to 3.15 (just for discussion sake). From the attached chart which you have already studied....you now have some valuable information to determine how that will feel to you....."seat of the pants" for each gear....You know what the costs associated with bringing your 1993 FXR is based upon this information....and will be a valuable resource to someone in the future....just as this thread may help someone as well...

The way I see it you have several options.....

1) so option one is revisting Todd's suggestion, however I am a little lost (just the way my mind works) with his though.....if one has any wrenching skills at all I am not sure if his suggestion would cost someone $500.00 or a $1,000.00 and what you would have as final gearing.....Like I understand what a 1993 FXR has, it has 3.37 gearing....I know what that means, I know what 3.15 gearing means, and I know and personally feel what 2.92 gearing is....but with the modifications he suggested I am not quite sure if your final gearing would be 2.94 or something there of....I am sure it's just me that is confused....but my point is his suggestion is an option....what his option would ultimately cost you I am unsure.

2) make a modifcation to 3.08 gearing as you have mentioned....you know the cost of this as it's in front of you.....you have a chart that if you study 3.15 gearing you would be within a quarter of 1% so it's basically 3.15 gearing. You already know what 3.37 gearing feels like and it's vital to note you know what 3.37 gearing feels like given your engine mods.....and you know what 3.37 gearing felt like before your engine mods.....that would be interesting to read how you felt about your "stock" gearing before you did the engine mods....

3) I am being serious but cautious here.....if ultimately you find yourself unable to emotionally invest to the comfort of your bike given your engine mods...and after changing your gearing to 3.08 and it's still not what you are looking for out on the highway based upon how you seem focused that you are going to ride.....then perhaps quietly selling your bike and acquiring a 1999 FXR2 or FXR3 with 2.925 stock gearing might be something you would find tolerable.....purchasing one of these bikes will cost around $12,000 or so....which then if this were an option brings you right back up to Todd's suggestion and may lead you back to paying more attention to his suggestion above.....

It seems to me realtively speaking that you know you are going to feel "miserable" riding with the "boys/bros" down the highway with your current engine mods and 3.37 gearing.....I can "read" you wincing from here....thus it's not working for you....which is prompting you to try any solution....(this is not bad) so go with the simplist solution to bring your bike down to 3.08 gearing and ride it for awhile....take the summer and ride....after putting your bike in different situations over the summer you will either "relax" and quite focusing on the "gearing" and the bike will settle in with all that you have done to it and it will become the wonderful ride you have set out to create....or else it won't and you can reevaluate later....those parts that you are installing will always have some merit of value to someone so you should be able to recover some of your expense....and chalk this up as you simply being a "test rider" for awhile.....which ultimately for us all here is a wonderful thing....really and I mean that seriously and positively.....you have had the inclination to step out of the box and see if something works or doesn't.....others will gleen from your input and it will help all....fortunately and unfortunately the learning that you are gaining is at your expense.....but hey we have all been there....that/s how we all learn....

To answer your question about which tooth to go with, I would go with the combination that will bring you down to 3.08 as I believe you will find "happiness" lol with the highest gearing possible up to 2.925....if you study that chart I don't think there is any reason to go higher....

Remember everything you are doing is specific to this bike....what I mean is....you have a bike that weighs under 600 lbs (1999 FXR2 weighs in @ 575 lbs) so you have a light bike....and you have thrown some torque at it with the engine....now you are looking for a "smoother" with less RPM ride....given those characteristics.....I would raise your gearing up....as high as economically feasable....given the discussion as mentioned above..
 
Classic,
Thanks for posting the chart on your thread, welcome perhaps you could post it here as well. Seems like if I went with the 33T/65? combo I'd be at 3.08 and maybe not too tall. I don't think you will be too tall at all based upon the attached chart Right between your current 2.92 and the later 3.15. What do you think now? People are going to be privately asking themselves, "did he have to open the flood gates with that question...." lol I've got to make some type of change fairly soon. My primary leak turned out to be the inner to engine o-ring.

She's coming apart today to repair that. All I need is an accurate belt tooth count to go 32?65 ot 33/65 and I can make the swap. I wish I could offer some insight into this, but I have none....obviously I am still a "part changer" ie: limited shade tree mechanic with only slight growth....ok ok ok ok...feels like Joe Pesci....so my shade tree looks more like Charlie Brown's Christmas tree....but I am learnin.....lol  Someone has to have this knowledge here though....
Regards,

"Classic"

[NOTE: Please remember that putting your curser next to the paper clip icon below the photo will allow you to enlarge the photo plus save it to your computer if you desire OR if you merely wish to see it enlarged simply put your curser on the photo and "LEFT" click and it will enlarge]

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 6/11/2008 9:42 AM

To answer your question about which tooth to go with, I would go with the combination that will bring you down to 3.08 as I believe you will find "happiness" lol with the highest gearing possible up to 2.925....if you study that chart I don't think there is any reason to go higher....

What I meant was....I don't think there would ever be a need to raise the gears taller than 2.925 on an FXR. 

I think HD really nailed the gearing with the FXR2 and FXR3 really well after studying the gearing....that's the GREAT thing about the topic of your thread, and why I have personally found it so interesting.... it really forced me to study and look at my own gearing on my bike.....and whether or not modifying it would be a good idea.....
Regards,

"Classic"

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 6/11/2008 10:00 AM

When time allows.....

My primary leak turned out to be the inner to engine o-ring.

I would like to know more about this.....ie:  what part number did you replace.......which will help me identify perhaps what you are talking about.....I am trying to grasp...."the inner to engine o~ring" lol what the heck is this...lol....it's clear in your mind of course but I am sittin here lol very curious...."inner to engine o~ring" ummmm now where is this....are you talking about the INNER PRIMARY MAINSHAFT OIL SEAL?

By the way before you LEAVE the area of your primary.....there is a service bulletin M-1148 which talks about the INNER PRIMARY MAINSHAFT OIL SEAL.....and replacing from HD# 12052 to a 12052A.  You can go to your local HD dealership and acquire the actual Service Bulletin or perhaps someone here will be able to attach it.

There is another Servive Bulletin for anyone that reads this also M-1161 dealing with an improved STARTER JACKSHAFT LIP SEAL however Olestoney2 it doesn't apply to your 1993 FXR as it only applies to all Big Twin Model Motorcycles manufactured "since" 1994.  The HD old # is 12066 with the new number being HD# 12066A.

Also if I were you I would check on this as well....I realize the "inners" of your primary are a bit different....but you still must have some "screws" that are securing the primary chain tensioner.....so perhaps it's a bit relevant as well to just check....here click and read you wll get the idea.....if it turns out that you notice the screws loose on my bike I am able to use HD# 1783C as hex head screws to replace the phillips head screws and thus be able to torque them to 12 - 14 ft lbs....your going....what is he talking about....click and read and it will make sense:

http://www.v-twinforum.com/forums/twin-cam-88-engine-technical-discussions/3798-primary-chain-adjustment-2001-rk.html

I am not saying you have an issue at all...but just make sure while you are in there that you verify whether the screws securing your primary chain tensioner to the back of the inner primary are indeed secured properly.....

and you know right to use red loctite #262 on your compensating sprocket nut and clutch shell basket nut as well???

Regards,

"Classic"

From: Fuzznut5197 Sent: 6/11/2008 4:02 PM

>>"the inner to engine o~ring" lol what the heck is this...lol.

The o-ring between the inner primary and the engine.
Part # 11147

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From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 6/11/2008 5:39 PM

Fuzz....

thank you

Regards,

"Classic"